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Thread: Heroes and Villains

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    Default Heroes and Villains

    What makes heroes? Many people would say circumstances make heroes. That is true up to some extent. For example, when soldiers risk their life in a battlefield, we see heroes in action, born out of circumstances. Despite their bravery, soldiers and even high-ranking officers go into obscurity after few memorable mentions here and there. A majority of them are never able to make their marks in the annals of history. Yet, Attila was able to make his name permanent in the pages of history. A large number of young men gave up their life fighting for Attila. What made him different from other military leaders who went to obscurity despite display of great valor?

    Attila understood the importance of villains. It is a villain who provides the necessary contrast, which makes the attributes of a hero stand out. If you enter a war without creating a villain then it will be hard for people to distinguish between your rapacity and the rapacity of your opponent. Attila painted Romans as villains and galvanized the Hun youth into action, an action which resulted in countless murders and pillaging. Chronicles of Attila’s campaign was written amidst burning villages, rape, murder and plundering. Yet, as long as there was a villain in the form of a Roman Empire, Attila’s place as a hero was secure among the Hun youth.

    So, what makes heroes, circumstances or villains?

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    Default Re: Heroes and Villains

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyril View Post
    So, what makes heroes, circumstances or villains?
    The circumstances could be a "natural" catastrophe, a heroic response is still possible. Villainy is just a man-made circumstance. So the question is not a choice A or B question.
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    Default Re: Heroes and Villains

    Heroes are selfless; Villains are selfish; and history is just an interpretation.

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    Default Re: Heroes and Villains

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyril View Post
    So, what makes heroes, circumstances or villains?
    In this day and age, the media makes heroes and villains. Take any one of the outspoken characters on the political stage today and they might have 50% of the populace considering the a hero and 50% considering them a villain. This would apply to Obama, senators, congressmen, and the people who are critical of them.
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    Default Re: Heroes and Villains

    The unfortunate thing is we love our heroes more then we hate our villains. We all grow up learning this same message, and from the safety of an armchair heroes seem so glamorous and villains not so bad. But anyone I know who was actually in a tragedy, natural or man-made would agree. They'd gladly have given up a need for a hero if the villainy could have been avoided to begin with. But good vs evil is profitable in the form of books, movies, games, music, life styles, social propaganda, stories passed by word of mouth, etc. Even a thug can become wealthy being a safe bad-guy, famous and popular. I am not sure if it our nature or how we are raised or a bit of both, but I guess we people enjoy our epic drama more then we do peaceful boredom.
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    Default Re: Heroes and Villains

    What kind of sources are you using for this theory of Attila's master plan to galvanize 'the Hun youth'? I am not familiar with this theory as you have presented it.
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    Default Re: Heroes and Villains

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser View Post
    What kind of sources are you using for this theory of Attila's master plan to galvanize 'the Hun youth'? I am not familiar with this theory as you have presented it.
    Ty. I didn't want to be the one to say it.
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    Default Re: Heroes and Villains

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser View Post
    What kind of sources are you using for this theory of Attila's master plan to galvanize 'the Hun youth'? I am not familiar with this theory as you have presented it.
    Attila is one of the greatest conquerers in the history of mankind. In order to carry out that many military campaigns successfully, you will have to have an army which believes in you and the cause you are pursuing. Attila painted romans as villains. It was not a very difficult task considering the atrocities carried out by Roman empire. Thus his own brutal actions were regarded as heroic acts by his followers.

    Roman sources describe Attila in less than flattering terms. But there are some historical accounts that describe him as a hero as in Norse sagas.

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    Default Re: Heroes and Villains

    Quote Originally Posted by minalynx View Post
    Heroes are selfless; Villains are selfish; and history is just an interpretation.
    Well said Mina.

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    Default Re: Heroes and Villains

    Quote Originally Posted by xdamage View Post
    The circumstances could be a "natural" catastrophe, a heroic response is still possible. Villainy is just a man-made circumstance. So the question is not a choice A or B question.
    Those people who save lives in the even of a natural catastrophe are certainly heroes but they are simply looked upon as rescue workers and they are soon forgotten. They are unable make a permanent place in the annals of history like Attila or Napoleon did.

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    Default Re: Heroes and Villains

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyril View Post
    Attila is one of the greatest conquerers in the history of mankind. In order to carry out that many military campaigns successfully, you will have to have an army which believes in you and the cause you are pursuing. Attila painted romans as villains. It was not a very difficult task considering the atrocities carried out by Roman empire. Thus his own brutal actions were regarded as heroic acts by his followers.

    Roman sources describe Attila in less than flattering terms. But there are some historical accounts that describe him as a hero as in Norse sagas.
    You haven't answered my question. What are your sources?

    I am well aware of the identification of Attila with Etzel of the Nibelungenlied and Atli of the Völsunga saga, and the memory of the Huns battle with the Goths in the Hervarar saga. But these sagas originated from the Germanic oral traditions passed down through almost a thousand years before being recorded, and can offer no relevant, accurate information concerning Attila's methods to inspire his armies.

    As for the Roman version of events, we have only fragmentary written evidence, primarily from Priscus and Jordanes, who were Byzantine authors. Priscus, who was at one time an emissary to the court of Attila, in contrast to your assertion above was in fact complimentary to the ruler. He did not however mention Attila having "painted Romans as villains and galvanized the Hun youth into action."

    The most relevant quotation of Priscus concerning the motivation of the Huns to attack the Western Roman Empire would probably be this:

    "Attila was of two minds and at a loss which he should attack first, but finally it seemed better to him to enter on the greater war and to march against the West, since his fight there would be not only against the Romans but also against the Goths and Franks--against the Romans so as to seize Honoria along with her money [italics added by Djoser], and against the Goths in order to earn the gratitude of Gaiseric, the Vandal king."

    It is true that Attila claimed Honoria was legally his bride since she had sent him a ring, along with her plea for his help in getting away from an arranged marriage to a Roman senator, and this was his primary justification for his war against the Western Roman Empire. But the Huns had been allied with the Romans in the past, most notably under the generalship of Aetius, who later defeated (barely) the Huns and their allies at the battle of the Catalaunian Plains (aka Chalons).

    But the Romans only held part of the battleline, and they were not the well-trained legions of old. Visigoths, Franks, Sarmatians, Burgundians, Saxons, and other tribes formed probably a greater proportion of the army, and ultimately the Visigoths won the battle for Aetius. Nor were the Huns fighting alone; rather they were part of an allied army under the leadership of Attila, consisting of Ostrogoths, Gepids, Thuringians, other Burgundians and Franks, and numerous other tribes.

    While it is true that when the tide of battle was turning against Attila, he apparently gave a speech and "inflamed by his words they all dashed into the battle." (Jordanes}, it is not mentioned that he vilified the Romans in particular as being evil or nasty. It is also highly unlikely they halted the battle so that 'the Hun youth' in particular could listen to him vilify the Romans in particular, while leaving everyone else out of it.

    Of course Attila didn't only fight the Romans at Chalons. And he also fought with the Eastern Roman Empire (aka Byzantine Empire, but they considered themselves as Roman as the Western). But nowhere is it mentioned that Attila "painted Romans as villains and galvanized the Hun youth into action."

    The reason the Huns were so effective under Attila were numerous. First and foremost their ability to exercise sway over their many vassals. Also their prowess at mounted archery, use of hit-and-run tactics, and their use of the compound bow (though these did not play such an important role at Chalons since there were so many other tribes fighting with them). They also had great contempt, as a race thoroughly versed in warfare, for the softness of the 'civilized' Romans, which is far from being identical with considering them villains.

    Perhaps the greatest factor motivating the Huns to fight both Eastern and Western Empires was the amount of gold they could obtain by doing so--or agreeing not to. For instance, at one point the Eastern Empire under the leadership of Theodosius II gave Attila 6,000 pounds of gold, in addition to a yearly tribute of 2,100 additional pounds. Which, of course, is a lot of fucking gold. This was in recompense for not paying earlier agreed tribute, and for failing to release fugitive Huns and allied people hiding in the eastern Empire, who may or may not have had a good reason for seeking protection there.


    At any rate, this is growing overly long and tiresome, and I have to work tonight so need some rest. But if you are going to claim knowledge of Attila's methods for morale-building in his army--not to mention those of his allies--you have failed to provide the slightest bit of textual evidence for that claim.
    Last edited by Djoser; 08-28-2009 at 09:33 AM.
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    Default Re: Heroes and Villains

    THAT was beautiful. Someone who knows what he's taking about, sharing his knowledge and politely questioning his debater. Need more of that here.

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    Default Re: Heroes and Villains

    ...yes, well said.

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    Default Re: Heroes and Villains

    Quote Originally Posted by wiseguy_tx View Post
    ...yes, well said.


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