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Thread: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

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    Default Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    (snip)A $300 million cash-for-clunkers-type federal program to boost sales of energy-efficient home appliances provides a glimmer of hope for beleaguered makers of washing machines and dishwashers, but it's probably not enough to lift companies such as Whirlpool (NYSE:WHR - News) and Electrolux out of the worst down cycle in the sector's history.

    Beginning late this fall, the program authorizes rebates of $50 to $200 for purchases of high-efficiency household appliances. The money is part of the broader economic stimulus bill passed earlier this year. Program details will vary by state, and the Energy Dept. has set a deadline of Oct. 15 for states to file formal applications. The Energy Dept. expects the bulk of the $300 million to be awarded by the end of November. (Unlike the clunkers auto program, consumers won't have to trade in their old appliances.)"*(snip)

    (snip)Unlike the popular, $3 billion cash-for-clunkers vehicle program, which ends on Aug. 24, there's no guarantee that hard-hit consumers are prepared to plump for new washers, stoves, and fridges. The federal outlay will piggyback on rebate programs for energy-saving appliances that have existed for years in more than 25 states, but which have largely failed to spur demand. Home improvement retailers like Home Depot (NYSE:HD - News) and Lowe's (NYSE:LOW - News) have also offered deep discounts on big-ticket appliances lately, with little impact.

    "The cash-for-clunkers (program) had a discernible value proposition for the consumer, because he knows how much his (clunker) is worth," says Darkatsh, the Raymond James analyst. "With appliances, there is no trade-in. You can walk into Home Depot and get a great deal on a home appliance any time you want one. Why would it drum up sales now?" Laura Champine, an analyst with Cowen & Co. (NasdaqGS:COWN - News), agrees. "I'm not sure if it will be as powerful as cash for clunkers because there is something compelling about that $4,500 discount," she says. "Also, a new car is more fun than a new dishwasher. So I'm not sure if it will be as much of a driver, but any driver is welcome right now."

    Stock Market Overreaction

    Analysts also believe that the stock market's reaction to the program is overblown. Whirlpool's shares rose 6% on Aug. 20 when news of the program circulated, and climbed another 5% the following session. "That's silly," says Darkatsh. He estimates that in a best-case scenario the rebates will equate to about $240 million in incremental sales for Whirlpool. But that's unlikely, as it assumes that every American buying under the voucher program would not have done so otherwise. "The vast majority would have bought them anyway," as purchases of appliances such as fridges and washing machines are far less discretionary than, say, cars or big-screen televisions, Darkatsh says."(snip)


    IMHO, besides costing US taxpayers yet more money, this Appliance program is likely to accomplish the following ...

    - kill discretionary sales of appliances over the next 3 months while would-be buyers wait for the program to actually go into effect ( even though they could arguably buy the same appliance right now at the same net price due to deep discounting by appliance manufacturers and retailers )

    - kill the deep discounts currently being offered, as retailers hold inventories in preparation for future sales under the program ( at higher profit margins )

    - placate unionized manufacturing workers at GE and Whirlpool

    - increase de-facto profit margins for upscale appliance manufacturers and retailers

    - kill sales of very low cost appliances which do not meet energy-star criteria ( by leaving pricing for these low cost appliances unchanged while temporarily 'lowering' the relative net cost of more expensive energy-star compliant appliances)


    Ultimately, the question must be asked regarding the end result after this program comes and goes. Arguably, pricing for upscale appliances will remain at former levels - meaning higher future net prices for buyers in the absence of rebates. Arguably, a number of very low cost appliance makers will have pulled out of the US market due to even poorer sales during the rebate program period, meaning future appliance buyers will be forced to choose from more efficient but more expensive models. And of course US taxpayers will continue to make treasury bond payments via higher income taxes for years to come in order to subsidize new appliances for their non income taxpaying neighbors ( in the same manner as the cash for clunkers program subsidized new cars for the same non income taxpaying neighbors).


    At least the tax fiasco over the cash for clunkers program will result in this rebate being paid to the appliance buyer rather than the appliance retailer !

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-25-2009 at 03:10 AM.

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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    Common attitude for discussion:

    <if I'm going to have to pay more taxes for everyone else's government-funded discounts, I'm going to get some new discounted appliances too>
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    Aug 28, 2009, 5:32 p.m. EST
    Whirlpool to shut Indiana plant, cut 1,100 jobs

    SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Whirlpool Corp. announced Friday it will close its Evansville, Ind., factory next year, moving the plant's production of top-freezer refrigerators to a facility in Mexico.

    Citing the need to trim manufacturing capacity, Whirlpool said the mid-2010 plant closure will eliminate 1,100 full-time jobs.

    Whirlpool, like most manufacturers, has seen its sales slump over the past year as a global economic recession and housing market slump hurt demand for home appliances. Whirlpool's latest revenue numbers show sales in the second quarter fell 18% to $4.17 billion from the second quarter of 2008.

    Closing the Evansville plant is part of Whirlpool's ongoing drive to consolidate its North American manufacturing operations.

    The company said it is also considering relocating its Evansville refrigeration product development center, a move that would affect another 300 jobs. "A decision is expected in the near future," the company said.

    ---------------------------
    Some here will blame it on unions and taxes, but maybe it is due to the crash and subsequent lack of sales. Fact is that even if they had moved it to Mexico two years ago, they still woulld have lost as much sales since theirs is not any more expensive than the other brands you see here in stores. Further in the last few years the European Electrolux brand has been making inroads with similar but higher priced, premium-appearing appliances (not vacuum sweepers either).
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    Some here will blame it on unions and taxes, but maybe it is due to the crash and subsequent lack of sales. Fact is that even if they had moved it to Mexico two years ago, they still woulld have lost as much sales since theirs is not any more expensive than the other brands you see here in stores. Further in the last few years the European Electrolux brand has been making inroads with similar but higher priced, premium-appearing appliances
    I'll agree that the housing crash and poor economy has hurt the sales of all home appliances. I'll also agree that Electrolux and Fischer & Paykel have come in to capture a slice of the upscale appliance market in a similar manner that Lexus came in to capture a slice of the upscale auto market.

    But the REAL 'stealing' of market share away from Whirlpool has been done by LG Appliance Division and by Samsung, who like Hyundai and Kia have leveraged their much lower Asian labor costs / energy costs / compliance costs to press Whirlpool's domestic manufacturing profit margin down to zero. Even GE stole some of Whirlpool's market share by shifting their production of household appliances to Mexico several years ago, and in turn leveraging their somewhat lower labor costs / compliance costs to slightly underprice Whirlpool.

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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    if I'm going to have to pay more taxes for everyone else's government-funded discounts, I'm going to get some new discounted appliances too
    Even if I was to come back to New York and buy a new appliance under the new gov't program, I would still wind up being a partial loser in the deal. The reason of course is that the program's 'rebates' are financed by Americans who actually pay income taxes !!!! This means that the ~40% of Americans who do not actually pay income taxes do actually receive a 'free' gov't rebate to reduce the price of their new appliance. However, for Americans who must actually pay income taxes, they wind up paying for their own 'rebate' via increased future taxation, as well as paying for the 'free rebate' given to their non-income tax paying neighbor !

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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    Man, you can find the dark lining to any cloud! If you apply this kind of logic to every purchase, you'll never buy anything anywhere. Somewhere, somehow, some undeserving non-tax-paying leech is going to benefit a few pennies from any purchase...even a loaf of bread in your new country. Can't you just enjoy the fact that you can save a few bucks on an appliance that you wouldn't have otherwise, and help a struggling sector? Sheesh.

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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ...But the REAL 'stealing' of market share away from Whirlpool has been done by LG Appliance Division and by Samsung, ...Even GE stole some of Whirlpool's market share by shifting their production of household appliances to Mexico several years ago, and in turn leveraging their somewhat lower labor costs / compliance costs to slightly underprice Whirlpool.
    I haven't found Whirlpool's prices higher than their competition; though I have no idea of their margins whch may be lower.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ...This means that the ~40% of Americans who do not actually pay income taxes do actually receive a 'free' gov't rebate to reduce the price of their new appliance. However, for Americans who must actually pay income taxes, they wind up paying for their own 'rebate' via increased future taxation, as well as paying for the 'free rebate' given to their non-income tax paying neighbor !
    You're not thinking of the actual numbers, but just the trend. Not every taxpaying or non-taxpaying American will make a purchase. And of those who do, their tax increase surely will be less than the discount, thus yielding a net gain for them. Another thing is that it may save some jobs, thus maintaining total taxable income and thus taxes. The gamble is how many jobs will be saved by this action alone. Not that it will be enough to guarantee saving them permanently, but just long enough to regain the govt. expense of the discount thru their income taxes an their corporations' taxes due to the sales.

    So it is not entirely negative at all. Maybe if you come out into the sun more often, things will look brighter.

    Of those Americans who do not pay income tax, I'd say a very good portion are receiving income under the table, and thus cheating the rest of us out of paying our and their income tax.
    Last edited by threlayer; 08-30-2009 at 09:20 AM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    Not every taxpaying or non-taxpaying American will make a purchase. And of those who do, their tax increase surely will be less than the discount, thus yielding a net gain for them
    This is circumstantially true because, while every American who actually pays income taxes will be paying higher taxes in order to fund the appliance rebate program ( in exactly the same manner as every American who actually pays income taxes will be paying higher taxes in order to fund the cash for clunkers new car rebate program), only a small percentage of those actual taxpayers will buy a new car or new appliance and thus 'recover' some of their own income tax money.

    In theoretical terms, this serves as motivation for all Americans earning more than $40k ( and thus actually paying income taxes) to buy a new appliance ASAP ... for the purpose of depleting the allowed federal budget for the program as quickly as possible, and as a consequence minimize the relative number of non-income tax paying Americans who would otherwise benefit from the 'wealth transfer'. But most higher earning Americans are not likely to do this, since they typically exercise some element of personal fiscal responsibility. However, the point they are not likely to immediately absorb ... whether we're talking about cash for clunkers or rebates for refrigerators ... is that they will be forced to pay higher taxes in any case !

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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    They can gain satisfaction in knowing they have helped their fellow citizens to keep working, and helped the less fortunate among them to pay a little less for something they need. Yes, some people actually think this way, and aren't consumed by every possible little negative connotation of every program promoted by Democrats.

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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    They can gain satisfaction in knowing they have helped their fellow citizens to keep working
    I assume that the 'fellow citizens' you're referring to are primarily Asian i.e. Samsung and LG employees ? The Cash for Clunkers gov't spending has been shown to have primarily benefitted the Asian sub-suppliers of Toyota and Honda ... although some non-union US Toyota and Honda assembly workers did benefit as well.

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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    I'm gonna go waaaayyyyy out on a limb here and say that Americans benefitted and will benefit overwhelmingly more than any foreigners will from those programs. Go ahead and prove me wrong.

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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    ^^^ That will be easy when Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Kia etc. release next quarter's 'foreign' earnings. In the meantime the evidence is mostly anecdotal ...

    (snip)"Those interested in taking advantage of the government’s “cash for clunkers” rebate program may have to act soon before many of the popular models sell out.

    At Bill Doraty Kia in Medina Township, the midsize Spectra sold out two weeks ago and the compact Rio is almost sold out.

    The program gives customers a rebate between $3,500 and $4,500 depending on the “clunker” they trade in.

    With the maximum rebate and other manufacturer discounts, customers can purchase a new Kia Rio for $5,995, said sales manager Jim Zurzolo. The Kia Optima, which is a larger sedan, can be purchased for $8,995.

    “Needless to say, it’s just a huge success,” he said. “All of a sudden, they can buy the car they want.”"(snip)

    Obviously Kia is 100% imported from Korea - thus the only benefit from the 'clunkers program' Kia sales for Americans are Kia dealers and their employees ! And that of course assumes that the business income taxes the dealership must pay on the 'clunkers rebate' money is exceeded by the actual profit from the sale !

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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Obviously Kia is 100% imported from Korea - thus the only benefit from the 'clunkers program' Kia sales for Americans are Kia dealers and their employees ! And that of course assumes that the business income taxes the dealership must pay on the 'clunkers rebate' money is exceeded by the actual profit from the sale !
    Nope. A lot of their SUVs and crossovers are made in Europe, Slovakia to be exact. There is also a facility in West Point, Georgia (USA) that makes Kia Sorento vehicles. (soon to be available to the public for the 2010 model year)

    It is cheaper just to pay the higher labor rates to off set the expense of transporting the vehicles to the final export location. Also, building in the US reduces import tariffs, which are quite high on auto manufacturers. A lot more manufacturing would come back to us, if we could just fix our f*cked up health care system.


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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    Nope. A lot of their SUVs and crossovers are made in Europe, Slovakia to be exact. There is also a facility in West Point, Georgia (USA) that makes Kia Sorento vehicles. (soon to be available to the public for the 2010 model year)
    I stand corrected. However I am equally uninspired that US taxpayer money was actually helping Kia employees in Slovakia as well as in Korea.

    I partially agree with your interpretation of the economics of US 'assembly' facilities for foreign car makers. They do indeed result in lower overall costs for the foreign manufacturers ... providing that the employees remain non-union, provided that all of the truly labor intensive / environmentally touchy sub-assemblies are sourced from outside the USA, provided that the company can secure tax concessions / energy cost concessions from state and local US taxpayers etc. It's also very important that the foreign car maker makes sure to close the plant when the 20 year tax concession period runs out, which also cancels out retirement benefit costs for employees who are then fired instead of being allowed to work long enough to become eligible for company retirement benefits.

    And yes the 'chicken tax' can become significant for 'expensive' imported cars ... but at 2.5% of the car's price is minimal for bargain basement models. However, the 'chicken tax' on imported trucks is much more significant at 25% ... which is why Toyota and Nissan have opened US assembly plants for all of their truck models.

    But circling back on topic, there is no equivalent 'chicken tax' which applies to imported appliances.

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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    I stand corrected. However I am equally uninspired that US taxpayer money was actually helping Kia employees in Slovakia as well as in Korea.
    In some way, every dollar spent benefits everyone in the world. Even buying a dreaded import, all the people working at the dealer benefit, their dependents, the people supplying the dealer and their dependents, the people supplying the suppliers...etc, and on down the line, all benefit. Hell Melonie, when you buy a coffee down there in the Caribean, or give a quarter to a beggar, it starts a chain reaction that ends up helping someone you wouldn't choose to help.

    Everyone supports us in some way, and we support them too. It's just the way it is.

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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    Hell Melonie, when you buy a coffee down there in the Caribean, or give a quarter to a beggar, it starts a chain reaction that ends up helping someone you wouldn't choose to help
    Actually, I'm very enthusiastic about paying fair prices for Central American coffee. The growers are typically 'free market' thinkers, extremely hard working, and do not receive 'agricultural subsidy' payments financed by local taxpayers. As a result, tax rates in Central America are very very low compared to tax rates in the US or other 'industrialized' countries where minimum wage laws, environmental compliance laws, high property / business tax rates etc. make it impossible for a similar business to operate at a profit / survive without taxpayer funded 'agricultural subsidies' !

    Of course as a Canadian you may have a very different idea about the importance of farm subsidies ... given that farm subsidy payments comprise a large percentage of total Canadian farm income !




    Even buying a dreaded import
    Also, I have absolutely no objection to imported vehicles ( or imported appliances ) ... since they increase the available standard of living for Americans by offering them a low cost high value option which cannot be provided by US producers ( thanks to their union labor costs, benefit costs etc.). My problem is being forcibly coerced into handing over part of my own income ( via income taxes ) to 'subsidize' new car ( or new appliance ) purchases for neighbors who are not required to pay income taxes ... which was of course one of the reasons I chose to take an 'extended vacation' with a $91k 'foreign income' exclusion from US taxes. But yes, if in fact US taxpayers are being forcibly coerced into contributing to a 'wealth transfer' program that doesn't necessarily result in personal benefit, it seems preferable that the actual beneficiaries should be Americans rather than 'foreigners'.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-31-2009 at 05:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    ^^The world economy is so intermingled, how would you ever know the difference?


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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    ^^^ well in the case of the subject at hand, company sales figures for appliance makers LG and Samsung leave extremely few dollars of benefit within the USA.

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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    and August new car sales under the 'cash for clunkers' programs were just released ...



    (snip)"Ford Motor Co. sold 181,826 cars and light trucks compared with 155,117 in August 2008, when high gas prices and growing economic uncertainty kept people away from showrooms.

    Two of Ford's vehicles -- the Focus and Escape -- were among the top selling cars under the clunkers program. Sales of the Focus rose 56 percent while those of the Escape crossover vehicle climbed 49 percent.

    Japanese automakers Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co. also posted gains year-over-year gains in August. Toyota sales rose 6.4 percent to 225,088, lifted by small cars like the Corolla, the best-selling clunkers vehicle.

    Honda sales rose 9.9 percent to 161,439, also largely on the strength of its fuel-efficient offerings.

    Meanwhile, low supplies of fuel-efficient vehicles at Chrysler kept the automaker from benefiting more from the clunkers program, whose rebates encouraged customers to buy gas sippers in exchange for guzzlers with gas mileage of 18 mpg or less.

    Chrysler sales fell 15 percent to 93,222 units. That was less than the combined sales of Hyundai Motor America and affiliate Kia Motors America, whose smaller sedans helped boost sales to a combined 100,665 for August.

    Going into August, five of Chrysler's most efficient vehicles were already at low inventory levels. Those vehicles -- the Dodge Caliber, the Chrysler Sebring, the Jeep Patriot, the Jeep Compass and the Dodge Avenger -- all qualified as Cash for Clunkers purchases.

    To make up for the shortfalls, Chrysler is boosting production by 50,000 vehicles of most of its vehicles through the end of the year.

    At General Motors Co., sales fell 20 percent to 245,550. GM said its inventory levels hit an all-time low of 379,000 during August.

    GM vehicles like the Chevrolet Aveo subcompact, the Cobalt sedan and Equinox crossover got a lift from the clunkers program. No GM vehicles made the closely watched list of top-10 Cash for Clunkers sales, but they had the largest market share behind Japan's Toyota Motor Corp.

    GM also said it was extending through the end of September its test program selling vehicles on eBay.

    Consumers are expected to steer clear of dealers this autumn now that the clunker rebates are no longer available."(snip)


    If you total up the number of vehicles sold by various auto manufacturers during August, 'big three' vehicles were clearly in the minority. This is even more evident when one subtracts sales of 'big three' vehicles like the Chevy Aveo (which is imported from Korea) which are of overwhelmingly foreign content.

    The other factor which 'remains to be seen' is whether or not the 'pulling forward' of new vehicle sales into July and August via 'clunkers rebates' will merely cause lower sales for the balance of the year now that the 'clunkers cash' from US taxpayers is no longer flowing ... potentially resulting in a net gain of zero new auto sales, and a net loss of $3 billion to the US taxpayers who financed the program via higher future tax rates ! In point of fact, US taxpayers will wind up paying for the purchase of somewhere around 200,000 additional vehicles ( at an average cost of $15,000) - but it is really unknown whether total sales due to the 'clunkers' program exceeded 'normal' sales levels by 200,000 units or not. If it did not, then the 'clunkers' program stimulated precisely nothing except higher future US income tax rates and a larger national debt.

    More than one 'talking head' has already speculated that the institution of rebate programs for whatever type of new products actually discourages consumers from buying those new products ... for the simple reason that nobody wants to pay a higher net price now if a future rebate program will become available to (apparently) lower their net purchase price. This in turn may lead to proposals for 'rebate programs' to become a 'permanent' fixture of the US economy.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 09-01-2009 at 02:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    Consumer confidence is a delicate thing. If nobody wants to spend any money, the whole shebang goes down. Perhaps without the stimulus programs to encourage consumers to spend, we'd be talking about very dark days right now.

    This is just as possible as your negative spin Melonie.

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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    ^^^ fortunately for you and other Canadians, the Canadian gov't has significant sources of 'real' income - from oil and gas royalties to mining royalties to hydroelectric power exports. Thus if the Canadian gov't chose to implement a rebate program promoting the sale of new cars or appliances they would actually be 'adding' to the Canadian economy.

    However, the US gov't is not in the same position in terms of independent income sources. As such, every dollar that the US gov't chooses to spend on a rebate program promoting the sale of new cars or appliance is actually a dollar that was ( or will be ) forcibly confiscated from an American taxpayer ... which in turn leaves those taxpayers with less money to spend in ways of their own choosing. Thus the US gov't rebate programs 'add' nothing to the US economy, they merely shift it from spending of American taxpayers' own choosing to spending in areas that are gov't selected. In turn this means that for every US auto or appliance worker that benefits from such rebate programs, some other US worker is hurt. Ironically, one segment of US 'workers' that is hurt significantly is exotic dancers ... because discretionary spending by strip club customers is one of the first expenditures to be cut when American taxpayers' net after tax incomes decline !

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    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by hockeybobby View Post
    Consumer confidence is a delicate thing. If nobody wants to spend any money, the whole shebang goes down. Perhaps without the stimulus programs to encourage consumers to spend, we'd be talking about very dark days right now....
    This is exactly my point. It is just like those unexplainable traffic jam slowdowns. If we didn't slow down to gawk, traffic would maintain rational speed. That is the case here except when banks shut down your creditlines and everyone runs out of gas at about the same time.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Actually, I'm very enthusiastic about paying fair prices for Central American coffee. The growers are typically 'free market' thinkers, extremely hard working, and do not receive 'agricultural subsidy' payments financed by local taxpayers....
    I'm sure you don't mean "fair trade" coffee. I see your coffee growers as exploiters of a depressed labor market by applying their considerable political power to assure that the workers have no labor rights except what the coffee growers give to them. This is the typical conservative econmic philosophy which places NO VALUE on humans except as a biological machine to produce money for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Also, I have absolutely no objection to imported vehicles ( or imported appliances ) ... since they increase the available standard of living for Americans by offering them a low cost high value option which cannot be provided by US producers ( thanks to their union labor costs, benefit costs etc.)....
    Well, I do for certain. Self-serving consumers only recognizing their own well-trained (by marketing psychology) desire for accumulation of things. They have been well-trained not to think of their purchases as having an effects of the working welfare of their fellow countrymen. To the extent that this "training" plays into the hands the corporations (that have many protections from the government) for their own profit-making incentives, to that same extent do in effect they sacrifice te welfare of the countries that they actually live in to increase the wealth of their stockholders and management. The one saving grace is that they produce jobs for their fellow countrymen, but to the extent that they have this almost mermerizing influence on consumers, they export jobs. In effect they will sell and saacrifice anything necessary for them to provide stockhonder equity and dividends. If corporations were actually people, instead of legal entitis given tremendous power by government, many of them would be shot dead for being traitors to their fellow citizens.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Actually, I'm very enthusiastic about paying fair prices for Central American coffee. The growers are typically 'free market' thinkers, extremely hard working, and do not receive 'agricultural subsidy' payments financed by local taxpayers. As a result, tax rates in Central America are very very low compared to tax rates in the US or other 'industrialized' countries where minimum wage laws, environmental compliance laws, high property / business tax rates etc. make it impossible for a similar business to operate at a profit / survive without taxpayer funded 'agricultural subsidies' !

    ~
    Which country has the higher GDP? Which country has the higher standard of living? The results aren't even close. That's the difference between conservative ideology and the economic policies of western industrialized countries. Conservative ideology leads to poverty for most people with most of the wealth in the hands of a few.

    Notice how when Melonie was working, she chose to work and live in the country whose economic policies she deplores. I bet that if Melonie actually had to make a living in one of those Central American countries that follow her conservative ideology, her living standards would be much lower. Instead of living as a retiree from a western nation, Melonie would be one of those workers picking the cocoa beans for far less than the US minimum wage. If she were doing that, I would bet her opinion of minimum wage laws would be very different.

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    Default Re: Clunkers like program announced for Appliances !!!

    Notice how when Melonie was working, she chose to work and live in the country whose economic policies she deplores
    Actually, prior to the 2006 elections, and with some glaring exceptions on the part of GWB spending gov't money irresponsibly, most of the US economic policies then in effect were sensible. Things started to change 'for the worse' after the 2006 election (i.e. ethanol policy, social benefits policy), but didn't approach the 'deplorable' stage until after the 2008 election ... at which point I made the decision to move 'way south of the border'.

    As to your other attempted argument, during my dancing career I have worked in many different parts of the world. Arguably my best financial success occurred in countries like South Africa, Macau etc. where the 'rich' locals I was 'marketing' myself to were richer (even though the 'poor' locals were poorer).

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