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Thread: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

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    Default Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    Obviously you won't hear much about this in mainstream US media ...


    (snip)"The Chevy Volt is a car that only appeals to preening schmoes and will fall flat on its face.

    Or so says Audi of America president, Johan de Nysschen, who went off on the Chevy Volt and electric cars in general, with Lawrence Ulrich of MSN's Exhaust Notes.

    Nysschen tells Ulrich, “No one is going to pay a $15,000 premium for a car that competes with a (Toyota) Corolla...They’re for the intellectual elite who want to show what enlightened souls they are...so there are not enough idiots who will buy it."

    He thinks the Volt will fall flat, and then the government will rush to its aid with generous subsidies so as to not look like a bunch of fools.

    Nysschen would rather the government supported more diesels since they produce fewer emissions than an electric car that's charged by coal. And they're ready today at a competitive price. He says the government is tricking the public into thinking electrics are clean. Unless the power grid gets cleaner, our electric cars will remain dirty."(snip)


    Besides the future cost to US taxpayers of yet more gov't subsidies to General Motors, there is also an issue of future cost to US taxpayers of the huge tax credits given for the purchase of electric vehicles. As Mr. Nysschen points out, unless and until the US power grid's sources of generation become cleaner, in point of fact the switch from gasoline engines to electric motors in vehicles will accomplish extremely little in the way of overall environmental benefits within the USA ... and will arguably increase total emissions on a global basis as 3rd world countries produce far more pollution by mining and refining the new raw materials needed for those electric motors / batteries etc.

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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    That's his opinion Mel. Really..."only appeals to preening schmoes"? ...and "no one is going to pay a $15,000 premium..." No one? Obviously some people will, and it won't just be the "intellectual elite". The Volt, and cars like it will become more and more popular as time goes on. Power generation will become more and more clean as time goes on as well. Think 10 to 20 years down the road.

    It's not a big surprise I suppose seeing the President of Audi of America slagging GM and their products....he wants to sell his car to you and beat his competitor. It's also no surprise to see you posting yet another negative article.

    And so it goes in the Dollar Den of Doom.

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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    Quote Originally Posted by hockeybobby View Post
    That's his opinion Mel. Really..."only appeals to preening schmoes"? ...and "no one is going to pay a $15,000 premium..." No one? Obviously some people will, and it won't just be the "intellectual elite". The Volt, and cars like it will become more and more popular as time goes on. Power generation will become more and more clean as time goes on as well. Think 10 to 20 years down the road.

    It's not a big surprise I suppose seeing the President of Audi of America slagging GM and their products....he wants to sell his car to you and beat his competitor. It's also no surprise to see you posting yet another negative article.

    And so it goes in the Dollar Den of Doom.
    Dah dah dahhhhhh!

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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    It didn't seem to hurt Prius sales. Or Hummer or Lexus or any other overpriced status symbol.

    Me thinks the Audi rep is feeling a little butt-hurt at Chevy.


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    I remember the heads of American car companies were saying similar things about the Prius 10 years ago.

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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    I remember the heads of American car companies were saying similar things about the Prius 10 years ago
    ... and arguably they were also correct !

    Of course the current 'head' of General Motors i.e. President Obama now has 'green energy' subsidies to promote, so the Chevy Volt will proceed regardless of the amount of US taxpayer money required to do so ! But the fact remains that net global pollution / CO2 emissions will not be reduced one bit by the introduction of Chevy Volt's.

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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Of course the current 'head' of General Motors i.e. President Obama now has 'green energy' subsidies to promote, so the Chevy Volt will proceed regardless of the amount of US taxpayer money required to do so ! But the fact remains that net global pollution / CO2 emissions will not be reduced one bit by the introduction of Chevy Volt's.
    This is bullshit Mel. Whether a low or zero emission car or a typical car is produced, the same amount of CO2 emissions are created in it's production...however, for the life of the car, less pollution will be created. It's already possible to create electricity on a large scale using emission free methods, now we need the cars on the road to be emission free too.

    And green energy subsidies are a smart idea. The old ways of doing things don't work. It takes government regulation/policy/subsidies to change the status quo.

    It's amazing how conservatives consistently come down on the wrong side of every issue.

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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    Companies have been trying to market electric cars since the early 1900's. None have so far succeeded, the batteries and electrical distribution system to make them practical do not exist now. I believe the volt is powered by Lithium Ion batteries, they don't work well in cold weather amongst many other shortcomings. No matter what your political leanings battery powered cars aren't now practical and won't be in the forseeable future

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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    Whether a low or zero emission car or a typical car is produced, the same amount of CO2 emissions are created in it's production.
    I have to call bullshit right back at ya. The initial mining and refining of rare earth metals as well as the production of batteries, which are a hugely larger component of zero emission electric cars like the Chevy Volt than conventional gas engine cars, as well as the ultimate recycling of rare earth metals and batteries when the zero emission car is eventually scrapped, require / produce FAR more pollution and CO2 emissions. One major reason for this is that 93% of rare earth mining and refining takes place in China, where the vast majority of energy needs are met by unscrubbed coal fired power plants ! Of course the majority of these emissions are generated on 'the other side of the world' while 'our own backyard' becomes arguably cleaner, which seems to satisfy short-sighted politicians and voters ( at least until the trade winds blow that Chinese pollution right back to the US / Canadian west coast !).

    And the future of the Chevy Volt isn't just influenced by the US government, but by the Chinese gov't as well.

    (snip)"September 1 - New York Times (Keith Bradsher): "China is set to tighten its hammerlock on the market for some of the world's most obscure but valuable minerals. China currently accounts for 93% of production of so-called rare earth elements -- and more than 99% of the output for two of these elements, dysprosium and terbium, vital for a wide range of green energy technologies and military applications like missiles. Deng Xiaoping once observed that the Mideast had oil, but China had rare earth elements...""(snip)

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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    The US generates about 45% of it's energy from coal, China about 70%. Both pollute the atmosphere, and both have an inherent cost associated with these methods which can be accounted for using a carbon type policy...which I believe is in the works. Polluting the atmosphere, and paying their workers a pittance are things which will eventually be priced into the cheap Chinese goods, through carbon policies and special import tariffs.

    Breathing, and people, are more important than profits. Leaders with vision already know this.

    Chgojoe: saying electric cars won't be practical in the foreseeable future....on what do you base this bold assertion?

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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    To Hockeybobby

    There are no batteries today that can function well in cold weather, are affordable, lightweight, can be quickly recharged, and survive with little maintence. It would suck to come out on a cold day after work and your electric car has virtually no range because the batteries are cold.
    There is no place to recharge your battery on a road trip. If they make stations to recharge electric cars it will take hours to do so.
    As soon as you load up your electric car with anything but yourself the range will decrease rapidly.

    If GM is hinging their survival on the Volt they will not make it.

    I don't think my assertation is bold, it is just looking at the matter in a practical way backed up by the failure of electric cars for the past 90 years

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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    Quote Originally Posted by Chgojoe View Post
    To Hockeybobby

    There are no batteries today that can function well in cold weather, are affordable, lightweight, can be quickly recharged, and survive with little maintence. It would suck to come out on a cold day after work and your electric car has virtually no range because the batteries are cold.
    There is no place to recharge your battery on a road trip. If they make stations to recharge electric cars it will take hours to do so.
    As soon as you load up your electric car with anything but yourself the range will decrease rapidly.

    If GM is hinging their survival on the Volt they will not make it.

    I don't think my assertation is bold, it is just looking at the matter in a practical way backed up by the failure of electric cars for the past 90 years
    The Volt is designed with a gas motor as well, which will power the car, and/or charge the battery. There will be no coming out on a cold day and having a car that won't go...anymore than there already is with current cars.

    Recharging the battery is accomplished overnight when you are sleeping, using a regular electrical outlet. These are everywhere. Of course, if you were planning on never sleeping, this could be a problem.

    There are and have been functioning, affordable electric cars, as well as hybrid cars which work just fine. These cars will be practical enough to make a lot of people...those less pessimistic than yourself that is....very happy.

    Perhaps you could read up on it before you write it off so dismissively:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt

    http://www.canadiandriver.com/2007/0...ar-concept.htm

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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    ^^^ this isn't exactly true. The outlet needs to be 220volts at 50 amps, the same as an electric dryer. These are NOT everywhere ... and the additional burden on residential utility power distribution systems of having to power many such rechargers throughout every neighborhood is NOT trivial.

    Also, rehashing ChgoJoe's point, an electric car's range quickly goes into the toilet when any sort of accessory also attempts to draw power from the battery. Where the Chevy Volt is concerned, this means that on cold mornings the owner better not think about turning on a heater ... or a car stereo ...unless he wants the gas engine to start up immediately.

    Back to my earlier and very important point which you totally ignored. If the Chinese gov't follows through on their threatened export quotas for rare earth metals ( arguably in response to calls for the imposition of import quotas / tariffs / carbon taxes on Chinese imports ), GM will not be building any Chevy Volts because they will not be able to obtain sufficient raw materials for the production of the necessary high-efficiency electric motors and generators ... it's that simple.

    Or it would be possible to reactivate rare earth mining operations in the US and Canada which have been closed down due to vastly underpriced Chinese competition ... which would provide GM with a source of rare earth metals for high-efficiency electric motors and generators, but at a much higher price ( thanks to higher US / Canadian labor costs, energy costs, worker safety costs, environmental compliance costs etc.). At that point, Mr. Nysschen's $15,000 price premium for a Chevy Volt would become something more like $25,000 ! Of course, the US / Canadian gov'ts could attempt to compensate even further for this price premium by confiscating yet another $10,000 in tax revenue from hard working citizens and transferring it to the buyers of Chevy Volts in the form of even higher tax credits !

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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    Quote Originally Posted by hockeybobby View Post
    The Volt is designed with a gas motor as well, which will power the car, and/or charge the battery. There will be no coming out on a cold day and having a car that won't go...anymore than there already is with current cars.

    Recharging the battery is accomplished overnight when you are sleeping, using a regular electrical outlet. These are everywhere. Of course, if you were planning on never sleeping, this could be a problem.

    There are and have been functioning, affordable electric cars, as well as hybrid cars which work just fine. These cars will be practical enough to make a lot of people...those less pessimistic than yourself that is....very happy.

    Perhaps you could read up on it before you write it off so dismissively:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt

    http://www.canadiandriver.com/2007/0...ar-concept.htm
    The Volt has to recharged with electricity which has to be produced. Today and for the near future in the U.S. that electricity will be produced primarily by burning COAL. So how will Volts help reduce greenhouse gases ? And please go slowly.

    The metals for those fancy batteries have to come from somewhere. Right now that is China and other "dirty" countries. Increased demand will create increased production creating more emissions thus reducing greenhouse gases ? How is this supposed to work ? And again, please go slowly.

    Btw, the Prius is still a loss leader for Toyota. After ten years it is still NOT profitable to produce.

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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Btw, the Prius is still a loss leader for Toyota. After ten years it is still NOT profitable to produce.
    Who says it's not profitable? The new Prius is. The cost of the hybrid system has fallen 50% sice the first generation.

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/pri...de-in-america/

    You and Melonie don't seem to understand that many new technologies are expensive at first, but over time the costs drop significantly. By 2020, Toyota expects all of their vehicles to be hybrids. Investing in hybrid technology turned out to be a very smart move for Toyota.

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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    You and Melonie don't seem to understand that many new technologies are expensive at first, but over time the costs drop significantly
    And you don't seem to be comprehending the fact that the battery and electric motor cost of hybrid vehicles is effectively set by the price of rare earth elements which are 93% supplied by China. You also aren't acknowledging the fact that the low pricing for these rare earth elements on the global market which arguably makes the production of hybrid / electric vehicles more of a break-even situation for the auto companies is dependent on the extremely low cost of Chinese mining labor, of unscrubbed coal fired electricity for smelting, of non-existing pollution controls for refining etc.

    If China follows through on their proposal to restrict exports of these rare earth elements, not only will battery and electric motor costs increase tremendously, but a real question will arise as to whether there is enough non-Chinese supply of rare earth elements available to allow for continued hybrid / electric vehicle battery and electric motor production at ANY cost !

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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Who says it's not profitable? The new Prius is. The cost of the hybrid system has fallen 50% sice the first generation.

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/pri...de-in-america/

    You and Melonie don't seem to understand that many new technologies are expensive at first, but over time the costs drop significantly. By 2020, Toyota expects all of their vehicles to be hybrids. Investing in hybrid technology turned out to be a very smart move for Toyota.
    Do you EVER really read, I mean sit down and actually R E A D your own links ?

    The "profitability" of the Prius was in the FUTURE tense meaning, to date, it has NOT been profitable. What your link doesn't say is profitable based on what sales number i.e. how many Prius units will be actually sold. It's 100 % hypothetical based on hopes, projections and expectations.

    As for what I do and do not understand, I am aware of how R & D works enough to support tax credits and deductions for American businesses to be able to develop new products and new technologies.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 09-09-2009 at 12:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    Quote Originally Posted by hockeybobby View Post
    And green energy subsidies are a smart idea. The old ways of doing things don't work. It takes government regulation/policy/subsidies to change the status quo.
    This is one area where the US greatly leads the People's Republic of China and is likely to stretch out its lead. The green energy and production subsidies will likely mean that China remains a manufacturing backwater relegated to making cheap consumer goods and paying poverty wages while the US continues to prosper. Simply a case of the very rich doing what it takes to get richer, and the very poor falling for the trap.

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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    If China follows through on their proposal to restrict exports of these rare earth elements, not only will battery and electric motor costs increase tremendously, but a real question will arise as to whether there is enough non-Chinese supply of rare earth elements available to allow for continued hybrid / electric vehicle battery and electric motor production at ANY cost !
    And the result of such a policy would be? The already very poor people in western China would get a little poorer. And the west would simply mine elsewhere or develop better battery technology that did not depend on PRC extraction.

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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    Melonie,

    You and your Limbaugh boilerplate bore me. You are as wrong as the old GM execs ever were. You have adopted their fail and are running with it.

    Conservatives were never about patriotism when they cornered the market on it during the W. Bush wars, and your true colors, whatever they are, are showing.

    Why do right-wingers like yourself wish the American auto industry had died out. Do you have stock in Audi? Don't give me free market bullshit because the free market is bullshit.

    Green energy is about national security and global security and...yes, profit and jobs.

    But the wrong party is behind that movement, so...let's root against it. Because real Americans drive dirty Audis, I guess.

    Now go have a tea party and leave the adults in the room alone. We are trying to get things done.

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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    Quote Originally Posted by bracketologist View Post
    Melonie,

    You and your Limbaugh boilerplate bore me. You are as wrong as the old GM execs ever were. You have adopted their fail and are running with it.

    Conservatives were never about patriotism when they cornered the market on it during the W. Bush wars, and your true colors, whatever they are, are showing.

    Why do right-wingers like yourself wish the American auto industry had died out. Do you have stock in Audi? Don't give me free market bullshit because the free market is bullshit.

    Green energy is about national security and global security and...yes, profit and jobs.

    But the wrong party is behind that movement, so...let's root against it. Because real Americans drive dirty Audis, I guess.

    Now go have a tea party and leave the adults in the room alone. We are trying to get things done.
    Dear me. Where to begin ?

    What are you if not a doctrinaire socialist or statist living in the "People's Republic Of San Francisco " ? How's the California budget working out for you ? Looking forward to a 50% tax rate, are you ?

    Melonie, I and many others opposed the auto bail-outs because we believe in the rule of law. Why would anybody buy another corporate bond if Obama can come along and toss the Bankruptcy Code out the window as he did with GM ? Who wants to be a shareholder if Obama can fire the head of a corporation BEFORE it's even taken over ?

    Where are all these wonderful "green jobs" ? How do you explain Spain's job losses from trying to "go green" ? Aside from Al Gore, who is going to profit from these green industries ?
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 09-10-2009 at 11:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    Thank you Eric. As a Moderator I didn't 'dare' to post the first response to Bracketologist for fear of accusations of partiality. But as long as I have my Moderator hat on ...

    ... one of the basic ground rules of the Dollar Den section is that all postings should have SOME economic content. Granted that as of late a large number of Dollar Den thread topics now have a component of political policy ... but this is unavoidable when new government policies are causing major new economic impacts. Nevertheless, comments that are 100% political in nature should be posted in the Community / Social Groups / Political Discussion area.

    ... taking Moderator hat back off ...

    And the result of such a policy would be? The already very poor people in western China would get a little poorer. And the west would simply mine elsewhere or develop better battery technology that did not depend on PRC extraction.
    As presented in foreign media, China's intent regarding rare earth metals appears to be to maintain Chinese mine and refinery production levels, but to 'stockpile' these materials for future use in Chinese products rather than allowing them to be exported in large quantities at low prices. This leads to a logical conclusion that ...

    - Chinese mine and refinery workers ( as well as Chinese coal fired power plant workers etc. ) would not see any change versus the status quo re employment or wage levels

    - The world market for rare earth metals would see a de-facto 93% reduction in available worldwide supply. In the short term this would result in MASSIVE price increases for the remaining 7% coming from other sources.

    - one 'workaround' would be to crank up existing rare earth mines that have been shut down due to lack of cost competitiveness versus Chinese rare earth metal sale prices. This might 'double' non-Chinese capacity from 7% to 14% of previous global levels. Combined with the above, this might result in global rare earth metals prices that are 5-10 times current pricing levels.

    - given that a typical hybrid vehicle has several pounds worth of rare earth metals in its battery, electric motors and other components, the following facts become extremely important ...

    (snip)For the year 2006, it is estimated that the total worldwide demand for rare earth oxide (“REO”) was 105,000mT. During that year, its government imposed a limit of 86,520mT of REO to be mined in China, about 90% of which is from the Bastnaesite type of rare earth ore mined in Baotou, Inner Mongolia and in Sichuan province. Bastnaesite from these regions is relatively rich in the light rare earths most commonly used in magnets, containing about 14% neodymium oxide. The worldwide yield of neodymium oxide for 2006 is slightly higher and estimated to total 18,000mT. The worldwide production of neodymium-iron-boron (“Neo”) permanent magnets is also quite well documented, and was estimated to use 20,500mT of rare earth oxides in 2006.(snip)

    (snip)Perhaps the most commonly cited new application that is pushing the demand for rare earths is the hybrid electric vehicle, which also uses sintered Neo magnets in its drive motor, in this case about 1500gm in each unit. A similar calculation yields 450gm of neodymium metal and 525gm of neodymium oxide per motor needed. Projections vary for the growth of this application, but one that is attributed to Toyota, the leading manufacturer of hybrid electric vehicles, estimates 2 million units per year by 2010. This amounts to 1050mT of neodymium oxide for this one application, and there are several others that will have comparable volume growth requirements by 2010. So it really isn’t hard to justify that Neo magnets will continue to demand at least an additional 3000mT neodymium oxide each year. (snip)

    from

    so former annual global supply of neodymium ore would immediately drop from 105,000 tons to 18,500 tons by the 'locking in' of China's 86,500 tons of production. Using China's 14% neodymium oxide content for the rest of the world's mines as well, this leaves something like 2,600 tons of ex-China annual neodymium oxide production. Without even considering current worldwide usage levels of neodymium oxide products for everything from computer disc drives to hybrid vehicle motors, forecast GROWTH of demand for hybrid vehicles alone is estimated to be 1050 tons per year. And full electric / overnight charge and drive 40 miles on electric only vehicles use far more neodymium oxide per car than hybrid vehicles do because the motors must be larger. Obviously this sort of growth is simply NOT going to happen in the short term given ex-China mining capacity restraints and massive price increases from ex-China sources due to their much higher 'break-even' price levels compared to Chinese sources.

    In the longer term, some miraculous scientific development may indeed yield a new electric motor technology ( or some other motive technology ) that has efficiencies that approach neodymium magnet based motors. But there is nothing viable on the current R&D horizon. Even if there was, the R&D cycle would require many years ... as was the case with large neodymium magnet motors that first emerged in the 1990's.

    In point of fact, what is much more likely to happen is the 'forced' purchase of fully manufactured neodymium magnet electric motors made in China which are produced using China's 'locked in' stockpile / supply of neodymium oxide by ALL hybrid / electric vehicle manufacturers. The first impact of this will be many more manufacturing and technical jobs in China, and fewer manufacturing and technical jobs in the USA, Japan, Europe etc. The second impact will be to increase the price of all hybrid / electric vehicles by significant amounts, given that China can essentially charge whatever 'monopoly supplier' price it chooses for exported neodymium magnet electric motors that are not available from any non-Chinese source.

    As to where the large amount of extra money collected from much higher priced neodymium oxide products will wind up, in the case of reopened US mines and refineries it will wind up going to union wages, to worker safety compliance costs, to environmental compliance costs, to 'carbon taxes' on energy costs etc. In the case of China, it will go into the pocket of the Chinese mining and refining companies and their investors ( 1/2 of which is owned by the Chinese Gov't ).

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 09-10-2009 at 10:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"


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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    $15K premium over similar conventional car?? Assuming hybrid gets 20 mpg improvement over "scc", at $3/gal. gas cost, one would have to drive 100,000 miles to recoup the initial price differential. I'm not factoring in the issue of potential loss of service/cost of replacing/recharging battery.
    I'm right 96% of the time. I don't sweat the other 5% .......................

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    Default Re: Audi President Calls The Volt "A Car For Idiots"

    ^^^ nor are you factoring in the cost of the additional federal / state taxes necessary to fund the electric / hybrid vehicle tax credits granted to electric / hybrid vehicle buyers ! Nor are you factoring in the eventual cost of 'recycling' all of the additional heavy metals and other 'nasty' stuff when a hybrid / electric car is eventually 'retired'. Nor are you factoring in the additional electricity grid infrastructure costs necessary to effectively power an 'electric dryer' sized hybrid / electric vehicle battery charger in every garage, which will show up in massively higher electric bills. And on an even more basic level, you are not factoring in the increased interest charges on an extra $15,000 auto loan balance.

    Lastly, you are not factoring in the impending changes in the way that 'road taxes' will be collected. At present, total federal, state and local 'road taxes' on your $3.00 per gallon gasoline may comprise 75 cents or more ( right now with $2.80 gas at the pump, wholesale NYMEX gasoline is at $1.85 or so). However, as is now being realized by many states, alternate fuel vehicles, hybrid and electric vehicles etc. are not paying their fair share of 'road taxes' via the gasoline tax collection method. Thus the states are looking at alternative methods of collecting 'road tax' besides taxing gasoline, from mandatory GPS mileage tracking to annual miles driven / vehicle model based collection of 'road taxes' as part of vehicle inspection / registration renewal etc. If / when 'road taxes' start being assessed by one of these alternate methods, it will mean that the increased mileage rating of a hybrid / electric vehicle would no longer also create a (partial) exemption from paying 'road taxes', causing the 'break even' vehicle gas mileage difference to be much higher.

    PS Xanfiles, your audio link raised an extremely important point ( although I don't know if this was the point you intended to emphasize) regarding the 'India Test' ! Put simply, if a new technology cannot 'cut it' in India, where there are no gov't subsidies and no artificially inflated fuel / energy costs, it cannot reach a 'self sustaining' level of production / adoption in the world as a whole. Arguably, electric vehicles are far from the point of passing the 'India Test' !

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 09-12-2009 at 02:01 PM.

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