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Thread: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by princessjas View Post
    I'm a vegetarian and every checkup my Dr comments on my cholesterol and everything being similar to levels she expects to see in preteens not 30-somethings. Even my blood pressure is fantastic. So I don't think saying vegan/vegetarian diets aren't heart healthy is very fair. Most vegetarians I know eat a ton of fresh veggies, nuts, with somewhat limited fruits and whole grains. It just doesn't seem possible for someone on a total meat diet to be healthier, unless you are talking about a veg that survives on Doritos and Pizza.
    low numbers don't tell the whole story. you could have tons of bad particles (vegetarians tend to have the tiny particles that are like pellets, vs. the large, fluffy particles that are the healthiest).

    also, blood pressure taken one time is very unreliable. the correct protocol is to take BP several times a day for a week or so to determine whether BP is too low or too high.

    whole grains cause internal inflammation and insulin resistance. this can be offset if you are engaged in very extreme physical effort (15 hours workdays of physical labor, marathon running workouts, etc).

    the actual scientific research indicates that whole grains are horrible for humans (they were adopted because they store well, and people did do the 15 hour workdays that offset many of the worst side effects of grain consumption).

    wholehealthsource.blogspot.com is a great starting point, as well as proteinpower.com. beyondveg.com also has some good resources as well. and those are just a few of the numerous sites with links to research studies and scientific data, not just anecdotal experiences.

    the science has been coming in and saturated fats are great for you, and grains and starches are not great for anyone except in fairly limited quantities. pastured meat (not corn/grain-fed) is excellent. the problem with standard american meat is the corn they feed the animals, not the meat itself. the corn literally drains the healthy omega-3s right out of the animals (in the case of beef). without lysine, corn does literally kill.

    all vegetables aren't awesome just because they aren't meat. we are made for meat and veg, and not so much for grains...

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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by miabella View Post
    low numbers don't tell the whole story. you could have tons of bad particles (vegetarians tend to have the tiny particles that are like pellets, vs. the large, fluffy particles that are the healthiest).

    also, blood pressure taken one time is very unreliable. the correct protocol is to take BP several times a day for a week or so to determine whether BP is too low or too high.

    whole grains cause internal inflammation and insulin resistance. this can be offset if you are engaged in very extreme physical effort (15 hours workdays of physical labor, marathon running workouts, etc).

    the actual scientific research indicates that whole grains are horrible for humans (they were adopted because they store well, and people did do the 15 hour workdays that offset many of the worst side effects of grain consumption).

    wholehealthsource.blogspot.com is a great starting point, as well as proteinpower.com. beyondveg.com also has some good resources as well. and those are just a few of the numerous sites with links to research studies and scientific data, not just anecdotal experiences.

    the science has been coming in and saturated fats are great for you, and grains and starches are not great for anyone except in fairly limited quantities. pastured meat (not corn/grain-fed) is excellent. the problem with standard american meat is the corn they feed the animals, not the meat itself. the corn literally drains the healthy omega-3s right out of the animals (in the case of beef). without lysine, corn does literally kill.

    all vegetables aren't awesome just because they aren't meat. we are made for meat and veg, and not so much for grains...
    Sorry, but those websites are full of propaganda. If you want to link actual scientific articles I'll read them. You can use google scholar to find them. My cholesterol is excellent and although I do not know particle size, I do know I am cardiovascularly in better health than most 15 year olds.

    How do I know this? I had extensive testing done due to a massive infection caused by a tumor several years ago. I had to monitor my blood pressure constantly for a while because they feared my heart had been permanently damaged and it does run consistently low.

    However I do not eat a significant amount of grains as I previously stated. I'm more into fresh veggies, with some nuts and a scattering of fruits and grains. In any case the free-radicals you are ingesting from cooked meat vs the anti-oxidants contained in veggies and whole grains would seem to balance any cholesterol particle size differences. I will research this in depth when I have more time though. Eating meat probably won't be happening for me even if it proves to be the healthier option, it just tastes nasty to me...and I can't get over the texture no matter how much I try.
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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

    no, they are full of research studies and actual data. there is no data proving that saturated fat is bad for you. zip, zero.

    the free-radicals thing regarding meat-- propaganda. doesn't happen with natural, grass-fed/pastured meats. doesn't actually happen even with corn-fed meat unless you've involved vegetable oils and corn-based preservatives in the proceedings. your diet exposes you to more free-radicals than my meat- and nut-based one.

    there is no scientific evidence that your diet is optimal, but there is plenty of scientific evidence (i linked to neurobiologists and doctors, for pity's sake) that saturated fat is great and meat is excellent for you.

    if you don't know your particle size, you don't know if your cholesterol is all that great. many doctors don't like to test for particle size because the results do not favor vegetarian and/or low-fat diets.

    i'm not getting inflammation from eating meat. that happens with grains consumption (bread, etc). all totally provable, and the sites i mentioned link to the actual research papers, which is why i linked to them-- they do link to the papers themselves and the real data so you can determine for yourself.

    you can choose to not read it, that is fine, but the data is actually there, and is not propaganda at all.

    and a lot of women on this type of optimal diet eat fish if they don't like chicken/beef/pork/fowl. it works well for them.

    as ever, i think individual choices are fine, but there are in the aggregate choices which are better for larger groups of people. individually, it's fine to be veg*n, but in the aggregate, the diet tends to expose you (generic you) to unhealthy things much more often than a primal/paleo/meat or fish- based whole-natural diet without grains and starchy tubers.

    diet is key, exercise is the bonus. that was really shocking to find out, but there you are.

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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by callista View Post
    well, let me put it this way. i've lost 20 lbs so far, and in this matter....

    1st 10 lbs: worked out a ton. did the yo yo, and it took 8 months to get it off. didn't watch my diet.

    2nd 10 lbs: worked out occassionally. watched my diet, didn't eat within 4 hrs of bed. weight came off in 2.5 months

    my friend is a trainer, and he said it best..... 80% of it is diet. you can lose weight without exercising, but if you exercise and keep putting crap into your body, you're wasting your time.

    make sure you're not eating too much fat, and not too many carbs. i try to keep my protien intake up - when your pee looks a lil light neon greenish, you're doing it right.

    also, watch your sodium and drink lots of water. it'll help to flush the bad shit out of your system.
    That is called a ketogenic diet and that is dangerous. That neon green is your kidneys flipping their shit from too much protein. (And yes, for most people, there is such a thing.)

    Oh god that scared the bejesus out of me.

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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?


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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

    interesting! i have never heard of eating a completely meat-based diet before. interesting interesting interesting....

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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

    I am thinking of staying from meat altogether. I fell a lot healthier when I do not eat meat. I can get all the protein I need from the plant source and it is healthy.

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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

    I am seriously contemplating switching to only raw meats, sashimi and organic egg yolks, with tons of fruits, vegetables and nuts. No dairy, no red meat, no wheat, no cooked or processed foods.
    Quote Originally Posted by AznExtasy View Post
    LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    You can say that again.. not just on here but men in general. Guys are so damn lame, the only way they can halfway make up for it is by opening their wallets.

    Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Tools

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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

    i will haply eat your share of red meat. waiter, two bison steaks!

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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

    my experience is... I pretty much eat the same diet all the time.... if i do my usual routine which includes a lot of active sports like kayaking or telemark sking... i'm thin... if I'm lazy and start to veg I balloon out... not sure if that answers the question...

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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

    Well, the OP asked about what helps body shape and definition right? Not just trying to weigh less.

    I vote for EXERCISE. Whether it's stretching and toning like dancing is, which builds long flexible muscles, or aerobics for cardiovascular fitness, or resistance training to build more muscle to burn more calories throughout the day. A mix of these three is ideal along with the exact amount of calories for your BMI. I honestly don't care if those calories come from a pizza, a big raw steak, or a ton of fruits and veggies. I think essentially weight loss AND body definition comes down to the simple mathematical equation each day where your body is either burning more or less calories than it needs. If you consistently go under, you'll lose weight, consistantly going over, gaining weight.

    The one problem than I forsee for people who focus exclusively on their nutrition and neglect to workout is that they can become "skinny fat". Which is a very skinny-looking person who's remaining flesh is pretty much just flappy fat because the body has got to hold onto some energy for later.

    What bodybuilders do: Eat like crazy and workout a ton, building up their muscle in high intensity workouts but NEVER letting themselves get hungry and always making sure they have enough "buolding blocks" to put on the muscle. Then right before a competition? They cut the calories and switch more cardiovascular workouts. Their powerhouse of muscle burns through that fat and they are left with a lean mean body. Some of the muscle they built previously gets burned off too but they have plenty to spare.

    So I guess the clearest answer to your question- it's not really both that are important so much as one or the other depending on what phase of training you're at. exercise if you are building the framework, and nutrition when you're whittleing yourself down to just that framework.....

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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by peachplumpear View Post
    The one problem than I forsee for people who focus exclusively on their nutrition and neglect to workout is that they can become "skinny fat". Which is a very skinny-looking person who's remaining flesh is pretty much just flappy fat because the body has got to hold onto some energy for later.
    I was trying to think of a way to explain just this...

    Personally... if I'm working out REALLY hard... I eat a lot more calories and worry less about my diet because A. I'm going to burn off the bad shit and B. My body seems to recover more quickly and I experience less joint pain/muscle soreness when I eat a varied diet. [I <3 CARBS!]

    But if I've don't really have time to work out heavily (aka, long distance running)... I'll still work out when I can, but just watch my intake and cut out a lot of the unnecessary calories.

    It equals out to about the same on the scale... but I'm definately a bit more firm and toned when I'm working out heavily and eating whatever (lots of pizza) than when I'm mostly dieting and not really working out.

    So I think exercise is more important for physical appearance than diet alone...
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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by miabella View Post
    no, they are full of research studies and actual data. there is no data proving that saturated fat is bad for you. zip, zero.

    the free-radicals thing regarding meat-- propaganda. doesn't happen with natural, grass-fed/pastured meats. doesn't actually happen even with corn-fed meat unless you've involved vegetable oils and corn-based preservatives in the proceedings. your diet exposes you to more free-radicals than my meat- and nut-based one.

    there is no scientific evidence that your diet is optimal, but there is plenty of scientific evidence (i linked to neurobiologists and doctors, for pity's sake) that saturated fat is great and meat is excellent for you.

    if you don't know your particle size, you don't know if your cholesterol is all that great. many doctors don't like to test for particle size because the results do not favor vegetarian and/or low-fat diets.

    i'm not getting inflammation from eating meat. that happens with grains consumption (bread, etc). all totally provable, and the sites i mentioned link to the actual research papers, which is why i linked to them-- they do link to the papers themselves and the real data so you can determine for yourself.

    you can choose to not read it, that is fine, but the data is actually there, and is not propaganda at all.

    and a lot of women on this type of optimal diet eat fish if they don't like chicken/beef/pork/fowl. it works well for them.

    as ever, i think individual choices are fine, but there are in the aggregate choices which are better for larger groups of people. individually, it's fine to be veg*n, but in the aggregate, the diet tends to expose you (generic you) to unhealthy things much more often than a primal/paleo/meat or fish- based whole-natural diet without grains and starchy tubers.

    diet is key, exercise is the bonus. that was really shocking to find out, but there you are.
    I get that you want everyone to convert to this for some reason, but hun, I'm a vegetarian. Telling me that many women on this diet just eat fish is, well, odd. Fish is still dead animal flesh, which I just can't bring myself to eat. Even if it did prove to be healthier I still couldn't do it. (Actually, I couldn't stand fish even when I did eat meat, I can't even stand to smell it cooking, it sometimes makes me vomit.) I don't judge others for eating meat. I don't care at all actually, my kids eat meat and I prepare it daily, but I'm just not going to eat it myself.

    I briefly read through the articles and they are written well with graphs and such, but I can't find any references to the actual published research papers. I haven't had much time to play around searching, but I am interested to find out if there is any truth to this. I don't necessarily think that eating moderate amounts of lean meats is bad for you, as long as your diet is loaded with tons of raw veggies and nuts, but I also think it's ridiculous to claim that my mostly raw veggie diet is really unhealthy when all evidence suggests it's very healthy.

    The meat/free-radical thing being propoganda is not true though. The research was released while I was preggo and I read the papers. It sucked hard because grilling meat is the worst for free-radicle production (the actual fat oxidizing is what creates them) and I ate meat while preggo but could really only stomach it when it was cooked out on the grill.
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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by mediocrity View Post
    That is called a ketogenic diet and that is dangerous. That neon green is your kidneys flipping their shit from too much protein. (And yes, for most people, there is such a thing.)

    Oh god that scared the bejesus out of me.
    This is worth reiterating. I had the exact same reaction.

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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

    In a nutshell I think the notion that food can be divided into simple black or white healthy/poison bins is a general human problem of wanting to have the world understandable in simple A or B terms. And it is great when you are teaching your kid, This is Food, This is Poison, but not great when you really want to understand how things really are. That in reality the difference between food and poison is a big gray scale and on that scale you make trade offs with everything you eat.

    Also our bodies have evolved some ability to heal, and adapt to a lot of molecular combination's, but still too much of anything may overload our bodies ability to cope with the harmful aspects. But they have also evolved to age and die and are not well wired to avoid diseases past the breeding/grand-parenting ages people live in primitive cultures; i.e., by 40ish no matter what people eat their genetic clocks will be ticking and increasingly are likely to have genetic "diseases" affect them.

    Our bodies do need certain key nutrients, molecular combinations we cannot synthesize. Lack of nutrients can sometimes harm us faster then harmful molecular combinations.

    We are fortunate to have access to so much food and nutritional options thanks to technology.

    Our bodies, just like animal bodies, do need exercise or our bodies do what they do... take the path of least energy used and muscles we don't need are likely to atrophy. This is just efficiency at play and generally a wise survival strategy (assuming one is not trying to look good and impress others with an Anime perfect body). If everyone does that in a society then nobody would care much that not everyone is ripped. But in our wealthy technological society we have a lot of free time to spend on our appearance, and are likely to live long enough to enjoy it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie61 View Post
    This is worth reiterating. I had the exact same reaction.
    I wonder how common this is? Back 5 or 6 years ago, a girl I worked with who was a hardcore Atkins practicer, went into kidney failure and had to have a transplant. (This was an accountant not a dancer, so I doubt drug/alcohol abuse had anything to do with it.) After it happened, several women at the office claimed to have had a friend who ended up with kidney damage from Atkins. Dunno how truthful it was since I'm never gonna be an Atkinser, I didn't really look into it.
    "I hear you calling and it's needles and pins. I wanna hurt you just to hear you screaming my name...You're poision. but I don't wanna break these chains.... I wanna love you but I'd better not touch."

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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

    Balanced eating anyone?

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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

    Well the easy answer is a healthy combination of the two, unfortunately you don't want the easy answer. You want us to pick one or the other. Well i would say that picking just one and using it to an extreme is unhealthy and not sustainable. If you eat healthy as you can, but you don't exercise you'll be thin but you wont have much muscle or a sexy tone. If you eat what you want but run upwards of 10 miles a day, your body will eventually shut down. (I know people that did the 5-10 miles a day thing, they're now in their late 40's & 50's and can barely walk) So this being said if I had to pick one, I would pick the healthy eating, is is the must sustainable plan. Does that answer your question?

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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

    "In fact, medical research shows that consuming too much protein -- more than 30% of your total daily caloric intake -- could actually harm your body, says protein expert Gail Butterfield, PhD, RD, director of Nutrition Studies at the Palo Alto Veterans' Administration Medical Center and nutrition lecturer at Stanford University.

    She says that a diet containing excess protein can have the following adverse effects:

    Adding more protein but not more calories or exercise to your diet won't help you build more muscle mass, but it may put your other bodily systems under stress.
    Eating more protein and increasing total caloric intake while maintaining the same exercise level will build an equal amount of additional fat and muscle mass, according to a study published in 1992 in the Journal of the American Geriatrics Society. "

    "Drastically cutting carbohydrates from your diet may force your body to fight back.

    She says that's because a diet in which protein makes up more than 30% of your caloric intake causes a buildup of toxic ketones. So-called ketogenic diets can thrust your kidneys into overdrive in order to flush these ketones from your body. As your kidneys rid your body of these toxic ketones, you can lose a significant amount of water, which puts you at risk of dehydration, particularly if you exercise heavily."


    "How Much Protein Do You Need?

    Robert M. Russell, M.D., and Carmen Castanada Sceppa, M.D., Ph.D.

    Carmen Castanada Sceppa, M.D, Ph.D., is a scientist working at the Jean Mayer USDA/Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts University School of Medicine. Carmen's research emphasizes protein nutrition and physiological function of healthy older individuals and those with chronic illnesses.

    RMR
    How does the average intake in the United States measure up against the Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for protein?

    CCS
    The typical American diet provides plenty of protein -- more than the RDA in most instances. The RDA represents the minimum amount of protein needed to fulfill protein needs in 97.5% of the population. This value is equal to 0.8 g of protein per kg body weight per day. The average mixed American diet provides from one to two times the RDA for protein. You might think, then, based on this that protein deficiency is unlikely in the U.S. . However, the RDA for protein has been derived from research studies performed on healthy individuals. Growing children, pregnant and lactating women, the elderly, and anyone undergoing severe stress (trauma, hospitalization, surgery), disease or disability need more protein.

    RMR
    What if you exercise?

    CCS
    We have seen in our lab that individuals undergoing endurance training increase their protein needs to about 1 to 1.2 g per kg per day, well above the RDA. In contrast, for subjects performing resistance exercises or weight lifting, the RDA for protein seems to be adequate. In resistance training, you are building up muscle and protein is used more efficiently.

    Muscles are built from protein. Unlike fat cells for fat and muscle or liver for glucose, there is no place in the body to store protein. We need to consume enough protein to allow our muscles to be healthy and perform work.

    RMR
    Carmen, we hear a lot in the media about balancing different types of proteins. What are the best sources of protein and what exactly is meant by complementary proteins?

    CCS
    Animal and plant or vegetable foods are the two major protein sources. Animal protein foods include meat, poultry, fish, dairy products and eggs and are said to be of high biological value. That is, they contain all nine essential amino acids that can not be synthesized in the body (histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan and valine).

    Plant protein sources, although good for certain essential amino acids, do not always offer all nine essential amino acids in a single given food. For example, legumes lack methionine, while grains lack lysine. What is needed are complementary proteins, various protein food sources that, eaten together, enable a person to meet the standards of a high biologic protein diet.

    RMR
    Do vegetarians and people on macrobiotic diets get into problems with protein malnutrition?


    CCS
    There are two types of vegetarians. Lacto-ovo vegetarians and strict vegetarians or "vegans". Lacto vegetarians eat animal protein of high biological value, eggs and dairy products. Vegans, however, eat a more limited diet and often must take amino acids supplements to make up for their not-so-high biological protein diet. If vegans eat a variety of plant foods -- cereals, nuts, seeds, grains and legumes -- they'll be fine. They don't have to eat all these food items at a given meal. However, they should consume most or all of them during the course of the day to insure a well balanced protein diet of high biological value.

    RMR
    Can one take in too much protein?


    CCS
    The typical American diet, as we said earlier, is already providing plenty of protein. There is no value in adding even more protein to that amount, since protein cannot be stored in the body and the excess is eliminated in urine and feces.

    When people start consuming too much protein (over 2.0 g/kg/d), the extra protein can become a stressful stimulus for the kidney. This is even more of a concern as we get older and our organs are less efficient and effective.

    Very high levels of dietary protein have also been correlated with increased urinary calcium excretion. The loss of calcium through urine could potentially be harmful for bone turnover, with the added risk of osteoporosis. Finally, protein requires vitamin B6 in order to be metabolized and ultimately utilized in the body. Very high levels of dietary protein increase the requirement for this B vitamin."



    aaand for good measure, let's quote the good ol' American Heart Association:

    "The American Heart Association doesn't recommend high-protein diets for weight loss. Some of these diets restrict healthful foods that provide essential nutrients and don't provide the variety of foods needed to adequately meet nutritional needs. People who stay on these diets very long may not get enough vitamins and minerals and face other potential health risks."

    "But these diets have other effects besides inducing quick weight loss. Most Americans already eat more protein than their bodies need. And eating too much protein can increase health risks. High-protein animal foods are usually also high in saturated fat. Eating large amounts of high-fat foods for a sustained period raises the risk of coronary heart disease, diabetes, stroke and several types of cancer. People who can't use excess protein effectively may be at higher risk of kidney and liver disorders, and osteoporosis."

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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by princessjas View Post
    I get that you want everyone to convert to this for some reason, but hun, I'm a vegetarian. Telling me that many women on this diet just eat fish is, well, odd. Fish is still dead animal flesh, which I just can't bring myself to eat. Even if it did prove to be healthier I still couldn't do it. (Actually, I couldn't stand fish even when I did eat meat, I can't even stand to smell it cooking, it sometimes makes me vomit.) I don't judge others for eating meat. I don't care at all actually, my kids eat meat and I prepare it daily, but I'm just not going to eat it myself.

    I briefly read through the articles and they are written well with graphs and such, but I can't find any references to the actual published research papers. I haven't had much time to play around searching, but I am interested to find out if there is any truth to this. I don't necessarily think that eating moderate amounts of lean meats is bad for you, as long as your diet is loaded with tons of raw veggies and nuts, but I also think it's ridiculous to claim that my mostly raw veggie diet is really unhealthy when all evidence suggests it's very healthy.

    The meat/free-radical thing being propoganda is not true though. The research was released while I was preggo and I read the papers. It sucked hard because grilling meat is the worst for free-radicle production (the actual fat oxidizing is what creates them) and I ate meat while preggo but could really only stomach it when it was cooked out on the grill.
    beyondveg.com covers raw diets of all types, their pros and cons. anyway, it's not that your diet is unhealthy for you necessarily, it's that it is not in the aggregate the best dietary choice. as i noted individual choices are different than what is best for the most people.

    i like not having to be in the gym and only having to do 30-40 mins per week of strength/resistance training. i like being thinner and firmer at the same numeric weight. i like not ever having to do high-intensity cardio ever again.

    i like being able to do more pullups than a navy seal.

    i would love other women to just see the benefit and jump on board with exercising very little, eating piles of tasty fat and vegetables and shocking folks with our linda hamilton arms acquired with 10 minutes of weight training a day three times a week.

    it's counter to all the conventional wisdom out there, but i just like the results and the small amount of effort yielding a massive return. it's like finding out you really can get a safe 20% yield on an investment.

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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by mediocrity View Post
    "In fact, medical research shows that consuming too much protein -- more than 30% of your total daily caloric intake -- could actually harm your body, says protein expert Gail Butterfield, PhD, RD, director of Nutrition Studies at the Palo Alto Veterans' Administration Medical Center and nutrition lecturer at Stanford University.

    She says that a diet containing excess protein can have the following adverse effects:

    Adding more protein but not more calories or exercise to your diet won't help you build more muscle mass, but it may put your other bodily systems under stress.
    Eating more protein and increasing total caloric intake while maintaining the same exercise level will build an equal amount of additional fat and muscle mass, according to a study published in 1992 in the Journal of the American Geriatrics Society. "

    "Drastically cutting carbohydrates from your diet may force your body to fight back.

    She says that's because a diet in which protein makes up more than 30% of your caloric intake causes a buildup of toxic ketones. So-called ketogenic diets can thrust your kidneys into overdrive in order to flush these ketones from your body. As your kidneys rid your body of these toxic ketones, you can lose a significant amount of water, which puts you at risk of dehydration, particularly if you exercise heavily."
    http://www.medicinenet.com/script/ma...ticlekey=50900

    "How Much Protein Do You Need?

    Robert M. Russell, M.D., and Carmen Castanada Sceppa, M.D., Ph.D.

    Carmen Castanada Sceppa, M.D, Ph.D., is a scientist working at the Jean Mayer USDA/Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts University School of Medicine. Carmen's research emphasizes protein nutrition and physiological function of healthy older individuals and those with chronic illnesses.

    RMR
    How does the average intake in the United States measure up against the Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for protein?

    CCS
    The typical American diet provides plenty of protein -- more than the RDA in most instances. The RDA represents the minimum amount of protein needed to fulfill protein needs in 97.5% of the population. This value is equal to 0.8 g of protein per kg body weight per day. The average mixed American diet provides from one to two times the RDA for protein. You might think, then, based on this that protein deficiency is unlikely in the U.S. . However, the RDA for protein has been derived from research studies performed on healthy individuals. Growing children, pregnant and lactating women, the elderly, and anyone undergoing severe stress (trauma, hospitalization, surgery), disease or disability need more protein.

    RMR
    What if you exercise?

    CCS
    We have seen in our lab that individuals undergoing endurance training increase their protein needs to about 1 to 1.2 g per kg per day, well above the RDA. In contrast, for subjects performing resistance exercises or weight lifting, the RDA for protein seems to be adequate. In resistance training, you are building up muscle and protein is used more efficiently.

    Muscles are built from protein. Unlike fat cells for fat and muscle or liver for glucose, there is no place in the body to store protein. We need to consume enough protein to allow our muscles to be healthy and perform work.

    RMR
    Carmen, we hear a lot in the media about balancing different types of proteins. What are the best sources of protein and what exactly is meant by complementary proteins?

    CCS
    Animal and plant or vegetable foods are the two major protein sources. Animal protein foods include meat, poultry, fish, dairy products and eggs and are said to be of high biological value. That is, they contain all nine essential amino acids that can not be synthesized in the body (histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan and valine).

    Plant protein sources, although good for certain essential amino acids, do not always offer all nine essential amino acids in a single given food. For example, legumes lack methionine, while grains lack lysine. What is needed are complementary proteins, various protein food sources that, eaten together, enable a person to meet the standards of a high biologic protein diet.

    RMR
    Do vegetarians and people on macrobiotic diets get into problems with protein malnutrition?

    CCS
    There are two types of vegetarians. Lacto-ovo vegetarians and strict vegetarians or "vegans". Lacto vegetarians eat animal protein of high biological value, eggs and dairy products. Vegans, however, eat a more limited diet and often must take amino acids supplements to make up for their not-so-high biological protein diet. If vegans eat a variety of plant foods -- cereals, nuts, seeds, grains and legumes -- they'll be fine. They don't have to eat all these food items at a given meal. However, they should consume most or all of them during the course of the day to insure a well balanced protein diet of high biological value.

    RMR
    Can one take in too much protein?

    CCS
    The typical American diet, as we said earlier, is already providing plenty of protein. There is no value in adding even more protein to that amount, since protein cannot be stored in the body and the excess is eliminated in urine and feces.

    When people start consuming too much protein (over 2.0 g/kg/d), the extra protein can become a stressful stimulus for the kidney. This is even more of a concern as we get older and our organs are less efficient and effective.

    Very high levels of dietary protein have also been correlated with increased urinary calcium excretion. The loss of calcium through urine could potentially be harmful for bone turnover, with the added risk of osteoporosis. Finally, protein requires vitamin B6 in order to be metabolized and ultimately utilized in the body. Very high levels of dietary protein increase the requirement for this B vitamin."

    http://www.thedoctorwillseeyounow.co...n/protein_2/#2

    aaand for good measure, let's quote the good ol' American Heart Association:

    "The American Heart Association doesn't recommend high-protein diets for weight loss. Some of these diets restrict healthful foods that provide essential nutrients and don't provide the variety of foods needed to adequately meet nutritional needs. People who stay on these diets very long may not get enough vitamins and minerals and face other potential health risks."

    "But these diets have other effects besides inducing quick weight loss. Most Americans already eat more protein than their bodies need. And eating too much protein can increase health risks. High-protein animal foods are usually also high in saturated fat. Eating large amounts of high-fat foods for a sustained period raises the risk of coronary heart disease, diabetes, stroke and several types of cancer. People who can't use excess protein effectively may be at higher risk of kidney and liver disorders, and osteoporosis."
    http://www.americanheart.org/present...entifier=11234
    www.proteinpower.com

    two doctors (married to each other), who've done a ton of work debunking a lot of the links you've posted.

    http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/l...-of/#more-3072

    that post is a good starting point, as is the book 'good calories, bad calories' referenced in that post. protein problems are more likely to stem from damage caused by overconsumption of grains, kneecapping the body's ability to process protein, and not so much switches to high-protein diets in themselves.

    all of this stuff is absolutely remarkable. those doctors primarily did a lot of work in their salad days helping super-fat people lose weight on high-protein diets. i figure they know how much protein is too much for a broad range of folks.

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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

    I say it's a combination of diet and exercise. You can lose weight with one or the other but the truth is they work best hand in hand. I don't really follow any sort of "diet". Just eat as much fresh, un-processed food as possible and avoid junk. It's fine to cheat every once and a while, but eating what was provided to us in nature is pretty damn easy. Fresh fruit, veggies, lean meats, nuts and whole grains. Yum!

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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by miabella View Post

    two doctors (married to each other), who've done a ton of work debunking a lot of the links you've posted.



    that post is a good starting point, as is the book 'good calories, bad calories' referenced in that post. protein problems are more likely to stem from damage caused by overconsumption of grains, kneecapping the body's ability to process protein, and not so much switches to high-protein diets in themselves.

    all of this stuff is absolutely remarkable. those doctors primarily did a lot of work in their salad days helping super-fat people lose weight on high-protein diets. i figure they know how much protein is too much for a broad range of folks.
    Looks like they couldn't prove it for $20k. Just like Atkins, Burroughs and Oz.

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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

    ^^^ His key point, humorously, is stuff I learned in Elementary School (which I'm afraid to admit was LONG time ago), that calories is calories, and our bodies do a damn good job using any that it can from fats, or carbohydrates. A very good thing! Because in a non-modern world food is often hard to come by and being able to use both efficiently is a wonderful survival trait.

    Though people again and again want to find magic diets, it seems to always come back to basics. Don't eat too many calories. Our bodies want to store extra calories we don't use as fat (which is a VERY good thing! at least in a world that pre-dates instant access to massive quantities of food).

    That said I do see people whose bodies look like bloated jelly rolls, seemingly lacking in muscle tone of any kind, which may be due to diets lacking in protein and far too many calories. So for them maybe adding some protein in exchange for carbs does seemingly work, though not for any reason we didn't already know. Doesn't mean they should gorge on protein or that calories don't matter.
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    Default Re: diet vs exercise - what do you believe?

    I am not trying to influence anyone here with my way of eating, however there is a lot of misinformation regarding protein and it effect on our bodies.

    I went zero carb after 2 years of research and many many discussions with Stanley Owsley, frequently known as The Bear. Stanley has been zero carb for 50 years and has the body of a 30 yr old in his 70's.

    A good starting point for those who are interested is The Bears forum he started in 2006 to debunk the myths. You can see he took a lot of flack from others there, but he is the living breathing proof that it can work for life, AND keep you healthy.

    Heres a link

    http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthrea...=journalformat

    and another

    http://zerocarbpath.blogspot.com/

    after reading up on The Bear, anyone is welcome to venture over to my home forum where a group of intelligent scientific minds hang out, and there is tons of information and people there who have been zero carb for years. They are all healthy, trim and ripped. Meat builds muscles without exercise, one of the bonuses.

    www.zeroinginonhealth.com

    again, not trying to sway anyone, just want to make sure that those who are interested, have a good starting point to educate themselves.

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