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Thread: Line between stripping and pros?

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    Default Line between stripping and pros?

    Where is it?

    Is it as simple and subjective as, "whatever it is just past what I will do -- that's prostitution."

    The bright lines on both sides are easy: just looking at a naked girl is not prostitution. Actual sex (vaginal or anal) is prostitution.

    What about everything in between?

    In my reg club, heavy 2-way contact is the norm (through the outside of the pants on the guy; everything but the thong on the girl). Is this prostitution?

    Touching the girl's vag (under the thong or without a thong) is ok in > 50% of privates. Is this prostitution?

    Finger banging. Prostitution?

    Touching the guy inside his pants?

    Mouth to penis but not actually sucking off?

    Blow jobs?

    What is the line in your mind?

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    God/dess verfolgung's Avatar
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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    How ever it is defined by the local laws which are applicable.
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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    What Verf said.

    The fact is a lap dance is considered an act of prostitution in many states even if it is not enforced by LE. This is one of the reasons that things like contact levels can change in election years...

    As for where the giver or receiver draws the line...eh, I don't judge....
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    Veteran Member Lklucky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    I think prostitution begins the moment the girl's hand goes into the guy's pants.

    Reason; intent seems directly there to satisfy a sexual need which is prostitution to me.

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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    It depends what assumption you start with.

    Some people start with the assumption that matters like prostitution are actual, tangible, things and believe that laws poorly or accurately define it.

    Some like me start with the assumption that matters like prostitution are all in our heads, our laws reflect some truth about how we really think, but with so many people and so much freedom to think as we wish, there is a huge gray area of behavior that different people feels crosses their magic line into prostitution (and even among them, they won't all agree if taking money to shoot a porn is prostitution, or acting, so I won't assume everyone thinks vaginal sex for $ = prostitution).

    From a practical point of view you can say that it is whatever the law defines which varies from city to city, town to town, but even then... there may well be laws in your town that 99% of the people agree are obsolete, maybe that define sexual limits between consenting adults that long ago the majority agreed were obscene, today not, so even that is too rigid of a definition.

    The bottom line answer is: It is easy to ask questions that imply there is a black or white answer, A or B and the trap is we want to answer it like that. The real answer is the question starts with a flawed premise, and we already know that everyone sets their limits differently. The legal one is the most interesting only because it is what the judge will hold against us, but even then laws (like those written in Vegas regarding stripping) are often quite fuzzy and the lawyers would debate it among themselves if they actually were forced to decide if the LDs in the SCs are crossing the line intended by the law writers.
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    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lklucky View Post
    I think prostitution begins the moment the girl's hand goes into the guy's pants.

    Reason; intent seems directly there to satisfy a sexual need which is prostitution to me.
    But counter example - If a Vice cop saw a dancer grinding on some guy with clothes on, the guy says keep going I'm going to cum, she does, he does, who would disagree it was about satisfying a sexual need?

    Arguably even if he is just erect in that situation he has been sexually stimulated, which is in violation of laws in some cities (specifically Vegas).

    Like I said, the trap is that Everyman has constructed a question with a basic flaw in it; the question is broken and so it invites broken answers and a debate that humans cannot ever agree on. The question titillates in our brain the idea that there is an actual line, but every time some one tries to spell it out in specifics there are counter examples that will fail.

    That said, there are no touch laws that are pretty easy to define in black and white terms. No touching, no contact, is relatively easy to measure and agree on what it means. Even if the guy is getting sexually aroused, in today's society we'd probably agree that it is not prostitution to show only (but there are some societies where even that would get a dancer stoned for sinning and acting like a whore)!

    So I claim the question is a pointless one... nobody will agree, and that the laws vary so widely world-wide it is evidence that humans world-wide really don't have a clear definition; their line is some combination of personal beliefs, thinking and whatever the norms are in the societies they are raised in. And those norms exist because the generations before them similarly debated what is sin, what is obscene, what is right/wrong, prostitution vs not, etc.
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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    To xdamage and others, my question is neither legal (what is the law on prostitution in your area?) nor moral (where would you draw the line between right and wrong?). It is practical. After all, an act can be prostitution, but still be legal (Bunny Ranch). And, an act can be prostitution, but not against someone's morals (2 consenting adults who don't see anything wrong with sex for money).

    So I'm really just asking for personal lines. I know there are a ton of different answers.

    My own line is I think prostitution starts where contact starts. Therefore, I think contact clubs engage in prostitution. But I don't think that's wrong. I engage in it all the time. My personal line on what I won't do is much further along -- bodily entry.

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    God/dess princessjas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    I agree it varies based on personal opinion. My personal line is touching a guy through his pants with hands, anything inside the pants or being touched (without smacking the hell out of the guy) anywhere covered by a swimsuit. I guess allowing boob gropage is a grey area in my mind as would be delibrately grinding on a guy till he got off. They are beyond my personal boundaries, but I'm not sure I'd call them prostitution, just nasty. Finger banging would definitely be way across the line to me.
    "I hear you calling and it's needles and pins. I wanna hurt you just to hear you screaming my name...You're poision. but I don't wanna break these chains.... I wanna love you but I'd better not touch."

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    Veteran Member Lklucky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    I dance in Vegas so I follow the dance laws and stay far away from any behavior that falls under the law's definition of prostitution- my answer was based on what prostitution was to me.

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    Veteran Member Lklucky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    also maybe a defining way to think of it is; what behavior is marketable as prostitution in the simplest sense of prostitution ie: are there street hookers selling touching over the pants and boob gropping to johns or are they selling handjobs, blowjobs and full sex?

    (this answer is based on it being a personal thing and not a law definition)

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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Everyman View Post
    So I'm really just asking for personal lines. I know there are a ton of different answers.
    Strangely in my state if my spouse blows another guy or gets off with hands, it is not adultery; there has to be penetration. I think many of us would have problems with our spouses hanging out in bed naked having oral sex with others, but that is the law.

    So yea, laws tend to be - hmpphhh debatable?

    My personal boundary is this though:

    With regards to what I think the limits should be with my SO, complex, based in part by her intent and who is it about, us or someone else.

    In regards to prostitution though, I honestly don't care or need a definition. Where what my SO does has an impact on me, what others do does not so I decided I don't need to define it and sleep great leaving it undefined. I do still have limits on what will work for me in a relationship, but it turns out nothing happens at all if I don't define prostitution. In fact it frees me not to be judging others and in what ways they trade sex for other benefits. Which is why mostly I don't care about prostitution laws. As long as people are not being harmed it turns out it doesn't matter to me if they have sex for pleasure, love, a dinner date, a gift, long term security, direct cash, a cash deposit, or a credit card charge for "Free" rent; trades is trades.
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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    It's not so much of a line as a sliding scale.

    At one end of it you have the dancer who does nothing by airdances - 100% clean. At the other end you have a dancer who's also a part time escort and offers all manner of sexual services - 100% prostitution.

    Between there you have the sliding scale - for example how do you classify a normally clean dancer who resorts to extras for just a few nights to get a loan shark off of her back.

    Nothing's black and white.

    Phil.

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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    i say as soon direct contact with the 'nether regions' happens. and making out. swapping body fluids or doing an act that would swap fluids if condoms werent involved is a lot more than doing a lap dance... even a contact dance with boobie touching.
    The best thing i have heard in a strip club to date:
    customer: we should get married right now! we should get a shotgun marriage!
    me: uhh... i think you are misunderstanding what a shotgun marriage means. A shotgun marriage means you knock me up and my daddy shows up at your door with a gun and forces you to marry me and raise the baby. You mean elope.
    customer: hmm... nah actually i will take the shotgun marriage. At least then we would be having sex.


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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    It depends are you talking about legality or morality?

    Legality - obviously it depends on the applicable local law. This is easy, just look it up.

    Morality - more complicated... You have to start off with a moral judgment, i.e. prostitution is a "bad" thing... Grinding is not "bad" because all dancers do it, so that cannot be prostitution... Only a few "nasty" girls allow direct finger-vagina contact, so that's "bad," and it has to be "prostitution"...

    If you think prostition is "bad" and you consider yourself a "clean" dancer, what you do is not prostitution, but what the "nasty" girls do is prostitution.

    Now, take the prostitute, who has no shame being a prostitute. She doesn't consider prostitution a "bad" thing, but just a job. Her definition of prostitution is likely to be a lot broader, since she is not trying so hard to make distinctions that avoid this characterization. She will probably say that everything she does for money (and not affection) is prostitution. If a guy just wants to talk while she massages his back -- she's getting paid, so its an act of prostitution. If a guy just wants a lap dance from her, its still prostitution. Even if he just wants to take her out to dinner, its prostitution, because she is only doing it for money, and she is not bothered calling it that.

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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    ok well working in a STRIP club where other girls STRIP and DANCE and allowing guys to finger you is prostitution. Not only is allowing vag contact mentally on a different level, physically it is a lot more to worry about since the lady bits are pretty sensitive and need to maintain a good balance. Putting other dancers in a position whre they are competing with girls who are doing things that are potentially a risk to their health is not fair in the strip club.

    Jack, You are a lawyer if i remember correctly, right? I am going to give you a ridiculous but analogous hypothetical situation so perhaps you can relate a bit better, since it seems like many of the men on here dont quite get why the clean dancers and the grindy dancers really are not fond of the girls who truly do prostitution in the club. Lts say you worked at a firm and your pay was based on how many clients you got and most of your clients were men... lets say your practice is something that applies to men more than women. Well lets say a there hot lawyer lady down the hall who also works for your firm who has recently started providing complementary blowjobs with her legal services. And suddenly you have to compete with that because many of your previous clients, understandably, want the complementary blowjob with the legal advice. Yea, you would be pissed off. That situation sounds completely ridiculous to you and would probably not happen in the 9-5 office, but thats the equivalent of working along side prostitutes in the strip club in my eyes. And its like cheating at a game except its not a game, its other peoples livelihoods. And it puts the clubs at risk legally and promots an atmosphere where customers expect more than girls are legally and emotionally willing to give. So yea, even if she thinks that prostitution is acceptable, she should run her business somewhere that is not the titty bar.
    The best thing i have heard in a strip club to date:
    customer: we should get married right now! we should get a shotgun marriage!
    me: uhh... i think you are misunderstanding what a shotgun marriage means. A shotgun marriage means you knock me up and my daddy shows up at your door with a gun and forces you to marry me and raise the baby. You mean elope.
    customer: hmm... nah actually i will take the shotgun marriage. At least then we would be having sex.


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    God/dess princessjas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    Jack, so if you have a business dinner with a client while on the clock, is that prostitution? What if it is an attractive female client and you flirt a bit, are you then a male prostitute since you are being paid?

    Your post sounds as if you are trying to say EVERYTHING in a SC is prostitution, right down to chatting with guys or having them buy us a drink, and I'm sorry, but that is a bit ridiculous, it is ACTING. You certainly wouldn't call every actress a prostitute.
    "I hear you calling and it's needles and pins. I wanna hurt you just to hear you screaming my name...You're poision. but I don't wanna break these chains.... I wanna love you but I'd better not touch."

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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil-W View Post
    how do you classify a normally clean dancer who resorts to extras for just a few nights to get a loan shark off of her back.
    Not so much of an issue because I'm asking about the act/s (prostitution) not the person (prostitute).

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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenathefabulous View Post
    ...I am going to give you a ridiculous but analogous hypothetical situation so perhaps you can relate a bit better, since it seems like many of the men on here dont quite get why the clean dancers and the grindy dancers really are not fond of the girls who truly do prostitution in the club. ...
    The analogy is good enough.

    You know what it is? It's that different people in different positions in life have different levels of vested interest in the line.

    As a dancer it is important that there be a clear distinction between stripping and prostitution for the business competitive reasons you discussed; also for personal boundary reasons; and maybe for an SO that would not approve of sex for $s but does dancing for $s.

    As LE it's important to know the lines clearly so they can do their job.

    As the average person though some people have strong opinions, some not. Having a strong opinion can work in your favor or against. The very conservative may well feel that dancing is nearly as bad as prostitution - in this case a strong opinion works against dancers. The more liberal set lines further out, which may be far enough out, but no so far out, that it works for dancers.

    Or those like me, who mostly don't care what the law defines because laws change and so do norms. As long as the lines aren't hurting me I have little feelings about it.

    The non-opinions work neither clearly for or against; while there is no strong judgment against dancing which works for, there is also no strong opinion against prostitution which may seem to work against. For a dancer that wants a strong and clear understanding that SCs are not Brothels, then the laissez-faire mindset can seemingly be detrimental (though it could also be those same minds are not particularly judgmental of what you do either, a positive).
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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    So... you're asking for all our personal opinions on what prostitution is? Why?
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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayATee View Post
    So... you're asking for all our personal opinions on what prostitution is? Why?
    I'm trying to gain some clarity on the common complaint (both here and in person) that "prostitutes" don't belong in the club. Often said by a girl who does all kinds of things I would personally consider prostitution (but not necessarily wrong). So wondering, what IS prostitution to everyone, anyway?

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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    ^^^

    You are looking for an absolute answer - and there is no such thing.

    It is human nature to rationalise our actions so that they appear (at least internally to ourselves) in the best possible light.

    Take the example of someone who actively goes into a SC seeking out extras. Because of the social stigma against prostitution, they will tend to rationalise things by thinking: "I'm not using a prostitute - I've just found a high contact dancer".

    Yet to someone who prefers low contact dances, that same dancer would be considered a prostitute if she offered extras.

    Where we consider the line between stripping and prostitution falls will depend on our own personal belief systems.

    Phil.

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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenathefabulous View Post
    Jack, You are a lawyer if i remember correctly, right? I am going to give you a ridiculous but analogous hypothetical situation so perhaps you can relate a bit better, since it seems like many of the men on here dont quite get why the clean dancers and the grindy dancers really are not fond of the girls who truly do prostitution in the club. Lts say you worked at a firm and your pay was based on how many clients you got and most of your clients were men... lets say your practice is something that applies to men more than women. Well lets say a there hot lawyer lady down the hall who also works for your firm who has recently started providing complementary blowjobs with her legal services. And suddenly you have to compete with that because many of your previous clients, understandably, want the complementary blowjob with the legal advice. Yea, you would be pissed off. That situation sounds completely ridiculous to you and would probably not happen in the 9-5 office, but thats the equivalent of working along side prostitutes in the strip club in my eyes. And its like cheating at a game except its not a game, its other peoples livelihoods. And it puts the clubs at risk legally and promots an atmosphere where customers expect more than girls are legally and emotionally willing to give. So yea, even if she thinks that prostitution is acceptable, she should run her business somewhere that is not the titty bar.
    Yeah, I get this point... I've never thought of it before, (since in my case, I don't look for extras and it doesn't make a difference to me whose doing it and who isn't)... but you, JayATee, PrincessJas and a few others have expressed the problem very well.

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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by princessjas View Post
    Jack, so if you have a business dinner with a client while on the clock, is that prostitution? What if it is an attractive female client and you flirt a bit, are you then a male prostitute since you are being paid?
    When I'm with a client, I bill for my time whether we're talking about a legal matter or about personal stuff. So, I'm providing "legal services" even if the client is only complaining about her children, spouse, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by princessjas View Post
    Your post sounds as if you are trying to say EVERYTHING in a SC is prostitution, right down to chatting with guys or having them buy us a drink, and I'm sorry, but that is a bit ridiculous, it is ACTING. You certainly wouldn't call every actress a prostitute.
    I didn't mean that at all... I only meant that it was very subjective and depends on your moral judgments about prostitution. A high-class escort who is proud of herself would consider everything she does as part of her escorting services. But, a dancer who thinks prostitution is bad, will try to distinguish what she does from prostitituion. I'm not saying that one is right and the other is wrong... I'm just saying that your subjective and moral attitudes about prostitution play a role in how you define it.

    If I could make good money at it, I would be a male prostitute for female clients... I love sex and could have sex 4 or 5 times a day... I also love roleplaying, fantasy, erotic massages, light BDSM, etc... If I got paid for it and the women were not hideous... I'd trade my career for prostitution in a heart beat.

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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    It's pretty common and well said; the vast majority of dancers don't want to have full out sex without limits with their customers. Reasonable for multiple good reasons. It is always been a hot point on SW that dancers wanted it crystal clear, they have limits and the limits are typically well below exchanging body fluids, orgasms, genital contact, etc Even if the line is hard to define, the general gist is not.
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    Veteran Member chris91's Avatar
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    Default Re: Line between stripping and pros?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil-W View Post
    for example how do you classify a normally clean dancer who resorts to extras for just a few nights to get a loan shark off of her back.
    I would say that she was a prostitute while she was resorting to extras, and a dancer the rest of the time. Easy.


    Here's what I consider prostitution: Any act that is meant to bring a dude to orgasm.

    When I'm talking about prostitutes in strip clubs, my definiton becomes broader.
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