Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 56

Thread: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

  1. #26
    Featured Member
    Joined
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    950
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 651 Times in 272 Posts

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    Melonie, you are doing a wonderful job! Thank you so much and please do not pay attention to unimportant things.

  2. #27
    God/dess hockeybobby's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,969
    Thanks
    1,811
    Thanked 597 Times in 382 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    She's not bashing the US, HB. She's bashing the direction in which it is being taken. There is a huge difference.
    There are two sides to that story.

    She's actually standing up for the country that most of us grew up in as we watch it being transformed into something that would be unrecognizable to the founding fathers.
    Our world is light years away from the world of your founding fathers. But I suppose, some things don't change, like bitching about taxes, and the tyranny of the rich.

    Here's another side to the story of the founding fathers:

    http://www.prisoners.com/mythff.html

    Change is natural. Change is good.
    Carry on.

  3. #28
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    how about some moderation in your U.S. bashing?
    OK how's this for some 'positive' economic commentary. There has never been a better time for an American to be unemployed ... at least in certain states. Federal largesse makes sure that you can receive up to 72 weeks worth of unemployment insurance checks. Federal largesse also makes sure that either via Cobra subsidies or MedicAid eligibility that health insurance coverage will continue. State law assures that you cannot be evicted from your house even though you stopped making mortgage payments. Federal and state largesse both assure that you will not go hungry or cold thanks to food stamps and utility subsidies. All in all, the 'present' isn't all that bad from a very short term point of view at least. And gov't policy tends to indicate that unemployment benefits and other gov't benefits will continue to be extended as long as the time actually required to find a 'replacement' job ... which mitigates serious threats of economic distress in the very near future.

    But the real 'problem' area is the longer term future. All of this gov't largesse is racking up unprecedented amounts of debt, at the same time that American consumers have racked up unprecedented amounts of debt. USA Today recently provided a figure of $668,000 worth of US gov't plus personal debt per American household. At even a 3% interest rate, that represents $26k in annual debt payments per household for the next 50 years - providing that the gov't stops additional spending and providing that consumers stop additional borrowing for the next 50 years as well ! Obviously this is an untenable situation.

    Thus America's economic future will consist of a two pronged economic assault by gov't. The first prong will be new and higher taxes on the 2/3rds of the American population that actually pays income taxes. But every dollar of additional taxation creates a 'moral hazard' that investing time, money and effort into becoming more skilled / more productive will NOT be returned. Every dollar of additional taxation also creates a strong incentive for those Americans with capital and/or high incomes to relocate that capital and/or high income outside the USA - as opposed to investing in new American business ventures that would create future jobs and future private sector profits. This point is perfectly exemplified by the dearth of new stock listings on American exchanges, and bodes very badly for America's long term economic 'engine''s power.

    The second prong will be devaluation of the US currency in order to 'devalue' existing debts. However, this currency devaluation also arguably 'steals' value from assets which have been built up / saved up over lifetimes. This obviously creates a 'moral hazard' of its own in regard to saving earned dollars versus spending earned dollars versus spending borrowed dollars. Ultimately this makes long term economic investments impossible to justify, and fosters degeneration to a 'hand to mouth' economy.

    The most serious negative of all of the above taken together is the economic 'inheritance' that Americans will be able to pass on to their children - or more specifically the lack thereof. However this topic receives zero attention from mainstream financial media. And since there is a significant time lag between corporate board room decisions and the actual end result of those decisions becoming reality, we are just now seeing the results of a first phase of corporate decisionmaking to 'exit' America which was actually decided several years back. Just wait until a second phase of corporate decisionmaking to 'exit' America actually kicks in.

    But of course there is also an new future paradigm already taking shape where some segments of corporate America are concerned ... i.e. entering into long term 'partnerships' with the gov't. Such is already the case with banking and finance as well as 'green' industries and defense industries, about to become the case with health care etc. And while the early results of such 'partnerships' have been very positive for those corporations who are able to privatize the profits generated by gov't spending, the picture is much more bleak for the US taxpayers who must socialize their losses !

    And all of these points share one common premise / requirement / likely result ... the devaluation of the US dollar !


    There are two sides to that story.
    Agreed, and here is 'my' side - the slow 'murder' of 'American Exceptionalism' !



    I won't quote further since the content, while having profound economic implications for a future America, constitutes far less than 50% economics.



    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 10-04-2009 at 04:10 PM.

  4. #29
    God/dess
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,964
    Thanks
    6,155
    Thanked 10,183 Times in 4,602 Posts

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    the gov'ts Earned Income Tax Credit subsidy is now paid out to about 1/3rd of US taxpayers
    Again you are making things up. The number of EITC recipients in 2008 was 23,723,314, less than 10% of Americans. People who receive EITC most likely aren't tax payers. If you mean tax filers, It's approximately 1/6.

    http://www.eitc.irs.gov/central/eitcstats/

    Have you ever considered the fact that so many of the things you make up based on your ideology are wrong, that maybe your ideology is wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    over 12% of the US population is now receiving the Food Stamps subsidy on a regular basis
    and 88% don't. The average food stamp recipient receives $21 per week. If 60% of Americans are paying income tax, it would mean that food stamps on average cost each taxpayer approximately $4 a week. I hardly consider that to cause any significant drop in their standard of living.

    If there were the same qualification for food stamps in the 1950's as there are today, approximately 20% of Americans would have qualified.

    If unskilled workers were so much better off in the 1950's, why was the percentage of Americans living in poverty so much higher in the 1950's than it is today? (approximately 20% in the 1950's compared to approximately 12% today)


    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    17 million US children now receive the gov'ts school breakfast / lunch subsidy ... which is something greater than 1/3rd of all school age children.
    which means slightly more than 5% of Americans received breakfast/lunch subsidies in school

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    these are not 'small' percentages !
    Yes they are!



    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Arguably, whatever decreases in food prices that have taken place are equally the result of importing more and more food from lower cost foreign sources, and the wholesale corporatization / automation of US farming to vastly reduce farm labor costs.
    No, the vast majority of food we eat comes from the US.



    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    technically true, but as the current holders of US BS Swiss bank accounts will tell you, paying 90% of 'nothing' was much less expensive than paying 35% of 'something' where reported income is concerned. And in terms of middle class tax rates, the impact of currency inflation / bracket creep has significantly increased the 'real world' percentage of middle class income now dedicated to the payment of taxes in one form or another.
    I doubt there were large numbers of Americans hiding their income in Swiss bank accounts in the 1950's to avoid taxes.
    Last edited by eagle2; 10-05-2009 at 12:35 AM.

  5. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to eagle2 For This Useful Post:


  6. #30
    God/dess Zofia's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Durham, North Carolina
    Posts
    2,417
    Thanks
    2,964
    Thanked 2,374 Times in 935 Posts

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    She's not bashing the US, HB. She's bashing the direction in which it is being taken. There is a huge difference.
    If her criticisms were based in facts or solid economics, that would be the case. As it is she is at basing her criticism on dodgy information and very unsound economics.

    She's actually standing up for the country that most of us grew up in as we watch it being transformed into something that would be unrecognizable to the founding fathers.
    Thank goodness we have transformed. The founders recognized a country where blacks were 3/5s the value of whites. The founders recognized a country where only landed white men could vote. The founders recognized a country where women were chattels (property).

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Zofia For This Useful Post:


  8. #31
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    which means slightly more than 5% of Americans received breakfast/lunch subsidies in school
    This like an attempt to say that only 25% of Chicagoans voted for Obama because 75% of 'Chigoans' actually reside in cemeteries ! Well, given past Chicago voter registration history, even that statistic might be skewed LOL.

    The basic point I have been trying to communicate is that, at present, something like 1/3rd of all American families include the existance of gov't subsidy payments in their monthly budgets. Yes school lunches for a child may only add up to $40 a month (federal + state benefit). Yes the EITC may only add up to $40 a month. But when you add up anothe $200 a month worth of food related benefits, another $200 a month of subsidized rent benefits, another $100 a month in utility bill subsidies etc. you quickly arrive at an inescapable conclusion that it is gov't benefits which establish 1/3rd of American families' standard of living - and that the equivalent cash value of those benefits ( or the price which must be paid by the taxes of other Americans who actually pay income taxes) is the result of a wealth transfer - and that the growing magnitude of this wealth transfer creates huge amounts of 'moral hazard' both for the benefit recipients and for the middle class taxpayers.

  9. #32
    God/dess Zofia's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Durham, North Carolina
    Posts
    2,417
    Thanks
    2,964
    Thanked 2,374 Times in 935 Posts

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    State law assures that you cannot be evicted from your house even though you stopped making mortgage payments.
    Since you are not in the US, I suppose I might forgive your obvious error. But, there are swaths of foreclosed and empty homes in this country. No state law forbids evicting people from their foreclosed homes. State law, as well as federal law does say that the lenders have to prove their case including that they actually hold a note entitling them to payment. That is of course something called the rule of law.

    But the real 'problem' area is the longer term future. All of this gov't largesse is racking up unprecedented amounts of debt,...
    Again, you are projecting trends. Your projection is based on a very simple mathematical notion that the trend will continue unabated at the current rate. Nothing of the like has ever happened. Trends always change. Further, you are making a claim that current debts are unprecedented. In fact (there is one of those pesky facts) the current debt level is not unprecedented. You don't even state what an unprecedented debt level is. (218% of GDP for a western democracy would be unprecedented. Japan in the 1990s and the UK in the late 1940s.) If you were serious about the issue and not just an alarmist, you would deal with the facts. What did the UK do to deal with its national debt in the 1940s and what would that portend for the US in the early part of the 21st century. You would also address what possibility that your debt projections might not continue unabated at the current rates. What then?

    Of course, it is so much easier to quote wacky perma-bear columnists, some goldbug blogger or some Austrian economic theory that is widely ignored than to actually do some analysis and present a well reasoned argument.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Zofia For This Useful Post:


  11. #33
    God/dess
    Joined
    May 2006
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    2,420
    Thanks
    36
    Thanked 291 Times in 210 Posts

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    Quote Originally Posted by hockeybobby View Post
    Change is natural. Change is good.
    Carry on.
    Only when it is change for the better. This is not change for the better as several of us see it.

    If we wanted to live in countries like France, Britain, or Canada, we'd move there.
    "never trust a big butt and a smile"-- Bell Biv DeVoe

    If you're in your twenties and aren't a liberal, you have no heart. If you're in you're forties and aren't a conservative, you have no brain - Winston Churchill

  12. #34
    God/dess
    Joined
    May 2006
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    2,420
    Thanks
    36
    Thanked 291 Times in 210 Posts

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Zofia View Post
    If her criticisms were based in facts or solid economics, that would be the case. As it is she is at basing her criticism on dodgy information and very unsound economics.
    The unsound economics is that which is being employed by the current (and to a certain extent, most recent) administration to ease the country's economic woes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zofia View Post
    Thank goodness we have transformed. The founders recognized a country where blacks were 3/5s the value of whites. The founders recognized a country where only landed white men could vote. The founders recognized a country where women were chattels (property).
    Nobody is suggesting we reinstate those policies, but once again all the left can do is practice the politics of division. None of the things you cite have been in effect for over a hundred years. The country was founded on the basis of limited federal government, something seemingly lost on the politicians of both parties of today, but particularly on the Democrats.
    "never trust a big butt and a smile"-- Bell Biv DeVoe

    If you're in your twenties and aren't a liberal, you have no heart. If you're in you're forties and aren't a conservative, you have no brain - Winston Churchill

  13. #35
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    ^^^

    The numbers are what they are. There is not one set of stats for Libs. and another for Conservatives. You just acknowledged using two different categories of people : Americans and taxpayers. 23.7 million Americans is less than 10 % of all Americans BUT it's MORE than 10% of all taxpayers.

    The basic points are that many American wives and mothers are working outside the home today because they HAVE To. Granted the 50"s were a much more sexist and racist time in our history. While we have undoubtedly progressed, from an economic standpoint the middle class (while larger and more diverse now than then ) is far more stressed. Partly it is their own fault. Instead of saving for big money purchases, other than houses and cars, Americans have been charging it. Now, we have shifted from excessive PRIVATE debt to excessive Public debt. If my neighbor mortgages his house to the hilt and he buys (or leases) his car and all his appliances with no money down, that's his problem. He has to pay that back. I don't. But when the government does it, I get stuck with the bill. As do all of us that pay taxes.

    Afaic, the problem is not so much what we spend on the poor, but all the middle class and corporate welfare that we have. Likewise, a major reason that the middle class is not as well off as in the past is the increased state and local tax burden. 10% of GDP is consumed by state and local government. Something like 1/3 is consumed by the Feds. and that's climbing. Just look at total GDP vs. total Federal spending.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 10-05-2009 at 09:30 AM.

  14. #36
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Zofia View Post
    Since you are not in the US, I suppose I might forgive your obvious error. But, there are swaths of foreclosed and empty homes in this country. No state law forbids evicting people from their foreclosed homes. State law, as well as federal law does say that the lenders have to prove their case including that they actually hold a note entitling them to payment. That is of course something called the rule of law.

    Again, you are projecting trends. Your projection is based on a very simple mathematical notion that the trend will continue unabated at the current rate. Nothing of the like has ever happened. Trends always change. Further, you are making a claim that current debts are unprecedented. In fact (there is one of those pesky facts) the current debt level is not unprecedented. You don't even state what an unprecedented debt level is. (218% of GDP for a western democracy would be unprecedented. Japan in the 1990s and the UK in the late 1940s.) If you were serious about the issue and not just an alarmist, you would deal with the facts. What did the UK do to deal with its national debt in the 1940s and what would that portend for the US in the early part of the 21st century. You would also address what possibility that your debt projections might not continue unabated at the current rates. What then?

    Of course, it is so much easier to quote wacky perma-bear columnists, some goldbug blogger or some Austrian economic theory that is widely ignored than to actually do some analysis and present a well reasoned argument.
    If you can tone down your dislike for Melonie and check the facts, the picture is NOT a pretty one. In addition to the current situation, we have a Social Security System and a Medicare system that have unfunded obligations in the tens of trillions of dollars. Those obligations will become current at the same time that 10 Year and a bunch of 30 year Treasuries will come due for payment. Who do you think ought to be paid ? The bondholders or the people entitled to receive Medicare ? That's just one of the problems.

    We cannot just grow out of our current mess. It's simply too large to improve without structural reform.

  15. #37
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    No state law forbids evicting people from their foreclosed homes.
    you must have missed

    you must have also missed

    granted that many of these state foreclosure moratoriums are in the process of expiring, but it is now 'politically correct' practice for mortgage lenders to attempt mortgage renegotiations before instituting foreclosure proceedings ... which will add another de-facto year of 'rent free occupancy' via the renegotiation process plus a 'new' default clock starting on the renegotiated mortgage, then a 'new' foreclosure clock starting upon the default of the renegotiated mortgage.


    The basic points are that many American wives and mothers are working outside the home today becuase they HAVE To. Granted the 50"s were a much more sexist and racist time in our history. While we have undoubtedly progressed, from an economic standpoint the middle class (while larger and more diverse now than then ) is far more stressed. Partly it is their own fault. Instead of saving for big money purchases, other than houses and cars, Americans have been charging it. Now, we have shifted from excessive PRIVATE debt to excessive Public debt. If my neighbor mortgages his house to the hilt and he buys (or leases) his car and all his appliances with no money down, that's his problem. He has to pay that back. I don't. But when the government does it, I get stuck with the bill. As do all of us that pay taxes.
    Thank you for explaining the point I was trying to make in very blunt terms. For a fact, from a purely economic standpoint the 'middle class' American standard of living has declined noticeably between the 1950's and the present day. As we have both mentioned, an apples to apples comparison of standards of living over the past 50 years MUST be conducted using the same economic model i.e. a one earner family. Contrary arguments attempting to make a point that the 'middle class' American standard of living has improved over the past 50 years totally neglect the facts that A. a second earner's efforts have been added to the equation ( which would have significantly increased the 1950's standard of living had two paychecks been funding 'middle class' family budgets instead of just one ), and B. that despite today's two earner equation an ever increasing expenditure of borrowed money has also been contributing to the equation ( or at least it was until a year or two ago).

    On the flip side, the amount of gov't subsidies provided to low income Americans has increased greatly since the 1950's ... to the point where 1/3rd of American households are now 'dependent' on such gov't subsidies to 'balance' their family budgets. Not surprisingly, the de-facto percentage of taxation of 'middle class' and 'rich' Americans ( official published tax rates non-withstanding ) has steadily increased since the 1950's in order to help fund ever increasing gov't subsidies. Also, the amount of outstanding long term US gov't debt has steadily increased in order to supplement gov't subsidy spending over the same time period - which will absolutely create an additional tax burden on future 'middle class' and 'rich' taxpayers.

    Once the gov't reaches the 'saturation point' in regard to increasing official published tax rates (and types) actually producing increased tax revenues - a 'saturation point' which is arguably imminent - the gov't will then really have only two options. The first option is to drastically cut gov't spending on subsidies, which would be hugely unpopular with low income registered voters who are now dependent on those subsidies. The second option is to devalue the US dollar's international exchange rate / purchasing power via the printing of ever greater amounts of new green paper ... and in the process reduce both the 'real' level of US dollar denominated debts that must be paid back as well as reducing the 'real value' of American savings and investments.

    Thus this extremely probable gov't policy encourages additional borrowing and default, encourages extended unemployment as long as gov't subsidy unemployment benefits are available, discourages risk-taking or harder work to increase pre-tax income levels, discourages work by low income Americans that could result in a forfeiture of gov't subsidy benefit eligibility, discourages savings and investment ( at least in US dollar denominated instruments) etc.

  16. #38
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    ^^^ It's actually worse than that. Over the last 40 years or so, middle class real income has declined. There are less poor people now as a percentage of population but in raw numbers there are more of them getting more money spent on them now than even just 20 years ago.
    And those are just the legal residents.

    The two biggest factors in greater struggle for the middle class are A- their own spending on more stuff now than then AND B. higher Payroll, state and local taxes.

  17. #39
    Banned
    Joined
    Sep 2008
    Location
    With the luggage NJ
    Posts
    2,995
    Thanks
    80
    Thanked 115 Times in 98 Posts

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    The basic point I have been trying to communicate is that, at present, something like 1/3rd of all American families include the existance of gov't subsidy payments in their monthly budgets.
    I would ass/u/me 99 and 44/100% of executives include government subsidies in their budgets. If it weren’t for corporate credit cards with the tax write off $800 an hour VIP rooms would not exist.

  18. #40
    God/dess
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,964
    Thanks
    6,155
    Thanked 10,183 Times in 4,602 Posts

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    The unsound economics is that which is being employed by the current (and to a certain extent, most recent) administration to ease the country's economic woes.
    In what way are you qualified to determine the soundness of the current administration's economic policies? They were handed the worst economic crisis in 75 years. There are no simple solutions to dig us out of the hole Republicans have dug us into.


    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    Nobody is suggesting we reinstate those policies, but once again all the left can do is practice the politics of division. None of the things you cite have been in effect for over a hundred years. The country was founded on the basis of limited federal government, something seemingly lost on the politicians of both parties of today, but particularly on the Democrats.
    It wasn't until the mid 1960's that African-Americans were given basic rights.

    It doesn't matter on what basis the country was founded. The American people have the right to decide how this country should be governed.

  19. #41
    God/dess
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,964
    Thanks
    6,155
    Thanked 10,183 Times in 4,602 Posts

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    Only when it is change for the better. This is not change for the better as several of us see it.

    If we wanted to live in countries like France, Britain, or Canada, we'd move there.
    If you don't want to live in a country like the United States, you're free to follow Melonie to another country.

    The American people are the ones who decide what kind of country we live in. A minority of conservatives don't have the right to dictate their views to the rest of the country.

  20. #42
    God/dess
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,964
    Thanks
    6,155
    Thanked 10,183 Times in 4,602 Posts

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    ^^^

    The numbers are what they are. There is not one set of stats for Libs. and another for Conservatives. You just acknowledged using two different categories of people : Americans and taxpayers. 23.7 million Americans is less than 10 % of all Americans BUT it's MORE than 10% of all taxpayers.
    No, Melonie misrepresented people receiving the EITC as taxpayers. They're not. People who receive the EITC receive money from the government, not pay money to the government. If Melonie meant tax filers, her numbers were still way off. Approximately 1/6 of tax filers receive the EITC, not 1/3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    The basic points are that many American wives and mothers are working outside the home today because they HAVE To.
    How do you know that? There are many women who actually want to work. There are also many families where the wives and mothers don't need to work but want the extra income, even though they could get by without it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Granted the 50"s were a much more sexist and racist time in our history. While we have undoubtedly progressed, from an economic standpoint the middle class (while larger and more diverse now than then ) is far more stressed. Partly it is their own fault. Instead of saving for big money purchases, other than houses and cars, Americans have been charging it. Now, we have shifted from excessive PRIVATE debt to excessive Public debt. If my neighbor mortgages his house to the hilt and he buys (or leases) his car and all his appliances with no money down, that's his problem. He has to pay that back. I don't. But when the government does it, I get stuck with the bill. As do all of us that pay taxes.

    Afaic, the problem is not so much what we spend on the poor, but all the middle class and corporate welfare that we have. Likewise, a major reason that the middle class is not as well off as in the past is the increased state and local tax burden. 10% of GDP is consumed by state and local government. Something like 1/3 is consumed by the Feds. and that's climbing. Just look at total GDP vs. total Federal spending.
    The problem we have is the wealthiest Americans are not paying their fair share of taxes, thanks to tax cuts that were so balanced in their favor. Without Bush's tax cuts, we probably would have been running surpluses instead of deficits for the past 8 years. If Reagan kept tax rates for the rich at a reasonable level of 45-50%, or even 40%, we wouldn't be in this hole.

  21. #43
    God/dess
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,964
    Thanks
    6,155
    Thanked 10,183 Times in 4,602 Posts

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    This like an attempt to say that only 25% of Chicagoans voted for Obama because 75% of 'Chigoans' actually reside in cemeteries ! Well, given past Chicago voter registration history, even that statistic might be skewed LOL.
    No it isn't. The fact is, only a small percentage of Americans receive lunch subsidies. There is a large number of Americans that don't have children in school.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    The basic point I have been trying to communicate is that, at present, something like 1/3rd of all American families include the existance of gov't subsidy payments in their monthly budgets. Yes school lunches for a child may only add up to $40 a month (federal + state benefit). Yes the EITC may only add up to $40 a month. But when you add up anothe $200 a month worth of food related benefits, another $200 a month of subsidized rent benefits, another $100 a month in utility bill subsidies etc. you quickly arrive at an inescapable conclusion that it is gov't benefits which establish 1/3rd of American families' standard of living - and that the equivalent cash value of those benefits ( or the price which must be paid by the taxes of other Americans who actually pay income taxes) is the result of a wealth transfer - and that the growing magnitude of this wealth transfer creates huge amounts of 'moral hazard' both for the benefit recipients and for the middle class taxpayers.
    Again, it's not 1/3, not even close. You're just making things up as you always do. There is no significant "wealth transfer from rich to poor". The fact is, there is more income inequality today than there was in the 1950's. The income for the top 20% of Americans has gone up significantly over the past 40 years, far more than the rest of Americans.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Un..._1967-2003.svg

    At the same time, the tax rates for the wealthiest Americans have dropped significantly. When you look at the actual facts and the real numbers, they're far different than the stuff you make up.

  22. #44
    God/dess
    Joined
    May 2006
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    2,420
    Thanks
    36
    Thanked 291 Times in 210 Posts

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    In what way are you qualified to determine the soundness of the current administration's economic policies? They were handed the worst economic crisis in 75 years. There are no simple solutions to dig us out of the hole Republicans have dug us into.
    I have degrees in Applied Mathematics and Economics from a top school. How about you?

    This mess was dug by both parties. The Republicans' responsibility lies in the fact that they abandoned conservative principles. The Democrats have controlled Congress since '06 and for the majority of the last 50 years.

    This administration is using a "hair of the dog that bit you" approach to the financial mess. When you dig yourself into a hole, you don't get out by continuing to dig. The defintion of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.


    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    It wasn't until the mid 1960's that African-Americans were given basic rights.
    And creating the nanny state has done wonders for poor people in general and the African-American community specifically.

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    The American people have the right to decide how this country should be governed.
    So true, and now that they are waking up and starting to see what Obama is doing and proposing to do, they are coming to their senses and opposing him and his policies in ever-increasing numbers.
    "never trust a big butt and a smile"-- Bell Biv DeVoe

    If you're in your twenties and aren't a liberal, you have no heart. If you're in you're forties and aren't a conservative, you have no brain - Winston Churchill

  23. #45
    God/dess Zofia's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Durham, North Carolina
    Posts
    2,417
    Thanks
    2,964
    Thanked 2,374 Times in 935 Posts

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    you must have missed http://loanworkout.org/2009/02/calif...re-moratorium/

    you must have also missed http://www.housingwire.com/2008/05/0...-foreclosures/

    granted that many of these state foreclosure moratoriums are in the process of expiring, but it is now 'politically correct' practice for mortgage lenders to attempt mortgage renegotiations before instituting foreclosure proceedings ... which will add another de-facto year of 'rent free occupancy' via the renegotiation process plus a 'new' default clock starting on the renegotiated mortgage, then a 'new' foreclosure clock starting upon the default of the renegotiated mortgage.
    Once again, you change what you said. In your first wild claim, you said that people were exempt from being evicted from foreclosed homes. You have to know the difference between foreclosed, past tense, a done deal, and a foreclosure moratorium, which takes place before the foreclosure. Two different issues. Differences that cannot be forgiven by your abandonment of the country. Foreclosure moratoriums and loan modifications are simply good for the banks as they preserve a stream of income that would otherwise be permanently lost.

  24. #46
    God/dess Zofia's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Durham, North Carolina
    Posts
    2,417
    Thanks
    2,964
    Thanked 2,374 Times in 935 Posts

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    If you can tone down your dislike for Melonie
    It's not a case of like or dislike. She posts things that are simply not accurate.

    In addition to the current situation, we have a Social Security System and a Medicare system that have unfunded obligations in the tens of trillions of dollars.
    You are mixing apples and oranges in an effort to confuse the situation. Social Security can be made solvent for more years by simply imposing the social security tax on all incomes.

    Medicare is a different problem, with a different funding issue. The only way to fix medicare is to reign in costs which have been rising faster than inflation for far too long. My problem with the Obama health insurance reforms is they do nothing to contain costs. But, that is not the sort of serious issue that you raise. Until you can show some serious interest in economics and policy don't expect me to do much more than point out the fallacies of your posts.

  25. #47
    God/dess Zofia's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Durham, North Carolina
    Posts
    2,417
    Thanks
    2,964
    Thanked 2,374 Times in 935 Posts

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    I have degrees in Applied Mathematics and Economics from a top school. How about you?
    The appeal to anonymous authority. How convincing.

  26. #48
    God/dess
    Joined
    May 2006
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    2,420
    Thanks
    36
    Thanked 291 Times in 210 Posts

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Zofia View Post
    The appeal to anonymous authority. How convincing.
    He asked. I answered.
    "never trust a big butt and a smile"-- Bell Biv DeVoe

    If you're in your twenties and aren't a liberal, you have no heart. If you're in you're forties and aren't a conservative, you have no brain - Winston Churchill

  27. #49
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Zofia View Post
    It's not a case of like or dislike. She posts things that are simply not accurate.

    You are mixing apples and oranges in an effort to confuse the situation. Social Security can be made solvent for more years by simply imposing the social security tax on all incomes.

    Medicare is a different problem, with a different funding issue. The only way to fix medicare is to reign in costs which have been rising faster than inflation for far too long. My problem with the Obama health insurance reforms is they do nothing to contain costs. But, that is not the sort of serious issue that you raise. Until you can show some serious interest in economics and policy don't expect me to do much more than point out the fallacies of your posts.
    I think she does for the most part. You just don't like her spin on those numbers.
    Which is fine afaic.

    You're somewhat correct about Social Security. Raising the income limit would bring in more revenue. For a while. Then what ? Even the most optimistic projections say that the Social Security system would still go broke without raising the retirement age and cutting benefits to otherwise wealthy recipients.
    Can we agree that it's ridiculous to let Warren Buffet collect Social Security ?

    Medicare has a similar problem to Social Security. Too many recipients and increasing costs. I have continually pointed out that Obama's plan does NOTHING to rein in costs.

    I'll try to be more serious about economics and government policy from now on.
    Sorry.

  28. #50
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: chart of the week - US Dollar Index

    ^^^^ Eagle- I actually agree with you about some of this stuff. I think a number of your points are valid. There is greater income inequality now than even just 30 years ago. That in and of itself does not bother me. In other words , IF the middle class were doinjg well ( and I agree with you that they are not ) then it wouldn't bother me too much how much money the wealthy were getting.

    You insist on ignoring the massive transfer of wealth represented by the Federal budget. It is overwhelmingly composed of transfer payments from taxpayers to those who do not pay taxes. It dwarfs what we spend on Defense, law enforcement and interest on the National Debt. Some of it consists of middle class , corporate and even upper income "welfare". In particular I'm thinking of agricultural and related subsidies and the like.

    Corporate executives now are supposedly overpaid. It used to be that a well compensated CEO got 70 to 80 times what the lowest paid worker got. Now it can be, 1,000 times and in a few cases, more than that. I've repeatedly said that any company; ANY company getting Federal aid like TARP ought to limit it's executives to the pay of the highest paid Federal Civil Servant, a GS-18 who make about $150,000 a year. As for other corporations, that is up to the Bd. of Directors and the shareholders. It's none of my business or yours or the Congress how much they choose to pay the CEO.

    While it's practical value would be limited because it would NOT generate enough revenue,I AGREE with you that the inequities of our current tax system ought to be addressed. John Kerry and wife made $5 million a year and paid about 12% in Federal income taxes. This is why I continually argue for a flat tax: a large individual exemption and then a rate of 15 to 20% with the elimination of ALL deductions and credits. We should also allocate a sufficient sum to handle the therapy needs and retraining requirements of K Street lobbyists, accountants , tax lawyers and other beneficiaries of the current system. To those ( possibly including you ) who say that: "taxing the 'rich' at 20% is not high enough ", my response is that they don't pay that NOW. Under a fair flat tax the Kerrys would have paid over $900,000 in taxes instead of barely $600,000.

    Unlike many of my fellow free market conservatives, I support reasonable estate taxes.
    I'd love to see guys like Senators Herbert Kohl and Jay Rockefeller actually have to work for a living.

    As for women working, it ought to be up to them. Many are forced into the workforce to help maintain a decent standard of living for their families. I'm sure many want to work and like to work outside the home but many HAVE to do so.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-20-2011, 02:17 PM
  2. chart of the week - US Dollar Getting Destroyed
    By Melonie in forum Dollar Den
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 04-12-2011, 01:26 AM
  3. chart of the week - US Dollar M2 'money supply'
    By Melonie in forum Dollar Den
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-25-2011, 05:55 AM
  4. chart of the week - the Dollar Index
    By Melonie in forum Dollar Den
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-06-2010, 02:13 AM
  5. chart of the week ... Consumer Sentiment Index
    By Melonie in forum Dollar Den
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 11-18-2007, 08:07 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •