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Thread: California about to face reality re hybrid & electric vehicles

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default California about to face reality re hybrid & electric vehicles

    (snip)"Oct. 23 (Bloomberg) -- California’s push to lead U.S. sales of electric cars may result in higher power rates for consumers in the state, as a growing number of rechargeable vehicles forces utilities to pay for grid upgrades.

    The autos’ effect on electricity fees is being reviewed by California’s Public Utilities Commission this month as the most populous U.S. state will require Toyota Motor Corp., General Motors Co., Honda Motor Co., Ford Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co. to sell more plug-in vehicles from late 2011.

    Power companies including Southern California Edison, the state’s largest, have to install new transformers and meters to handle greater demand and prevent blackouts when autos are being charged at outlets. Utility rates will rise to cover the costs, said Travis Miller, a Morningstar Inc. analyst in Chicago.

    “If you look at the kind of money that will be needed for a full smart grid and support for electric vehicles, then you are talking about a substantial amount,” Miller said in a phone interview. The spending may total “multiple billions” of dollars over a decade or more, he said.

    From model years 2012 through 2014, the largest carmakers by volume in California must sell about 60,000 plug-in hybrids and electric cars combined, according to the state Air Resources Board. President Barack Obama is aiming for 1 million plug-in cars on U.S. roads by 2015 to curb tailpipe emissions and cut dependence on foreign oil.

    System Overload

    Rosemead, California-based Edison International, the owner of Southern California Edison, has identified the city of Santa Monica as a community with many potential battery-car customers that may require transformer upgrades.

    A typical Santa Monica circuit, which serves about 10 households, may be overloaded should two or three of those customers charge vehicles simultaneously, even if they do so overnight during off-peak hours, Ted Craver, Edison’s chief executive officer, said in a phone interview on Oct. 20.

    While surplus power is available at night at cheaper rates, the grid needs adjustments to handle such charging, Craver said. For example, additional or larger transformers may be needed in neighborhoods with numerous plug-in car owners.

    “If all those people do it at off hours, in the middle of the night, a lot of our system is designed so the transformers cool down at night,” Craver said. “That’s part of how they are able to function at full capacity during the day.”

    Electricity Rates

    Edison, PG&E Corp., owner of Pacific Gas & Electric Co., and Sempra Energy’s San Diego Gas & Electric have said in filings with the state utilities commission they’ll have to make infrastructure investments related to plug-ins, without proving specific figures.

    Expenses will start next year for plug-in “readiness efforts, and will require a reasonable process for seeking recovery of these costs,” Edison said in its filing. "(snip)

    from

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    Default Re: California about to face reality re hybrid & electric vehicles

    The thread title could also have been: California strides boldly into the electric car decade.

    Upgrading the grid & transformers over the next decade "may cost billions"? Yawn. That's true everywhere.

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    Default Re: California about to face reality re hybrid & electric vehicles

    Wow, talk about unplugging the toaster before using the microwave.

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    Default Re: California about to face reality re hybrid & electric vehicles

    ^^^ the power company executives are NOT talking about upgrading power transmission systems from region to region i.e. the 'smart grid'. What they are talking about is the fact that their neighborhood substation transformers, residential street circuits and pole mounted power transformers are woefully undersized to handle the charging of electric / plug in hybrid vehicles ( which draw as much power as an electric clothes dryer for 4-6 hours to charge up ). If the costs of increasing capacity in residential areas is 'recovered' via an increase in residential and commercial electric rates across the board, i.e. electricity customers who own electric vehicles as well as electricity customers who do NOT own electric vehicles, then this amounts to yet another de-facto stealth tax / subsidy !

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    Default Re: California about to face reality re hybrid & electric vehicles

    To the extent that it's a tax on everyone, it's because pollution is a harm to everyone. I question your assertion about charging the cars being equivalent to running a dryer for 4 to 6 hours. Hogwash.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: California about to face reality re hybrid & electric vehicles

    ^^^ do the equivalent kilowatt=hour energy analysis ! Start here .. . Every gallon of gasoline has the equivalent energy of 33 kilowatt- hours. So charging up an electric vehicle with the near equivalent of 5 gallons of gasoline requires ~150 kWh. Lets even assume that electric vehicle will be twice as energy efficient as gasoline vehicles on an overall basis, lowering the recharge energy requirement to ~75 kWh ! At 220 volts, this means drawing ( 75000 / 220 = ) 341 amps for one hour. Given that this is well beyond the electric service capacity of all residences, it also equals drawing 85 amps @ 220v for 4 hours or 57 amps @ 220v for 6 hours or 43 amps @ 220v for 8 hours. The latter two are very close to the power draw of an electric stove ( 50 amps @ 220v ). And this amount of charge would carry the electric vehicle about the same distance that 5 gallons of gas would carry an equivalent vehicle ... perhaps a 60-75 mile commute to work and back. The actual distance would depend on a number of variables, largest among them the diversion of battery power to systems other than the vehicle's electric motor ( i.e. heat / lights / other accessories) by the driver !

    From an energy standpoint, slow charging for 10 hours at 110 volts on a normal house circuit ( = 80% of 20 = 16 amps) will only impart 110 * 10 * 16 = 18 kWh of energy. Even at the double efficiency value versus gasoline engines, this still boils down to only driving the distance that just over one gallon of gasoline would carry a conventional engine vehicle ... perhaps a 15-20 mile commute to work and back. And that of course also ssumes that the electric vehicle driver doesn't use battery power for anything else ( like heat or lights or accessories !)

    Unfortunately, there is no way to squeeze any major amount of additional energy efficiency out of rare earth magnet electric motors ... as the motor and drive system is already at an 85-90% efficiency level. For a fact the energy requirements of moving 2000 pounds worth of car and driver X miles in Y amount of time are what they are ... and for a fact one gallon of gasoline contains a HUGE amount of energy, relatively speaking !

    and from PG&E ...

    (snip)As electric vehicle technology becomes more readily available to consumers, homes will need to adapt. For instance, electric car owners will likely need a plug in their garages to charge their vehicles. To work efficiently, that plug would have to be capable of handling a different voltage than most other household plugs. To charge quickly, garage plugs will need to carry 220 volts. Whereas most plugs (with the exception of the electric dryer) carry 110 volts. With the higher voltage, cars can charge in four or five hours, rather than as much as 10 hours"(snip)


    To the extent that it's a tax on everyone, it's because pollution is a harm to everyone
    Well this gives rise to 'whole 'nuther discussion' i.e. the actual amount of pollution being produced during the generation of the electricity needed to charge the electric vehicles. Short of quickly building 1000 new nuclear power plants ( costing SOMEONE trillions of dollars), the vast majority of this additional electricity demand will have to be met by new natural gas or oil fired generators ... which will still produce a ton of CO2 and other pollutants. Thus, arguably, the major consequence of shifting from gasoline car engines to electric motors is the SHIFTING of pollutant generation from tailpipes to power plant smokestacks ! Given California's policies toward new electrical generation, this effectively means the import of additional electric power - and the export of pollution - to surrounding states !

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 10-25-2009 at 03:02 PM.

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    Default Re: California about to face reality re hybrid & electric vehicles

    And the hydrogen powered buses that Clifornia bought cost 30x what a regular bus cost.
    And the billions spent on stem cell research by the state have added up to ZERO.
    No wonder they are bankrupt.

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