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Thread: A Simple Question

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    Default A Simple Question

    This stems from another thread and I did not want to hijack it so I started this. I would like honest opinions without anyone getting nasty. We can all agree to disagree, I would just like to understand my counterparts in this area. I have posed this question to my liberal friends over the years and have yet to receive a logical answer. It usually ends up with them telling me I am too dumb to understand in a nice way. lol. Lets try not to go there.

    Most of the same people that are screaming about high executive pay were screaming before the bailouts. I meant those statements for overall and not just to the idiots that let us down.

    This is what I have a hard time wrapping my head around. Keep in mind I am a simple man and I need a simple answer.

    Susan and John grow up and go to college. Both take student loans. Susan works during college to help supplement her college life and start saving to help with her intro into the marketplace. John decides to get a job to help with his partying throughout college. Susan makes it through college gets a job and starts working on getting her loans paid off. She skimps the first few years watching what she buys and is very responsible with her money. John drops out after two years of hard partying and goes to work for the local plant. He lets his loans default and runs up credit cards. Somehow John gets a loan for a small home and runs into some bad luck. He loses his plant job and instead of taking a lower paying job to keep his home safe, he goes on unemployment until he gets a job that he approves of. After many months of waiting, he finally loses his home. Susan finally saves enough for a nice down payment on a home and has sufficient savings to cover her if she becomes hurt or unemployed. She has worked her way up the company ladder over the years and is now in line for vice president of sales for her company. She starts to splurge a little and buys a few nice things for herself but never goes over her budget.

    20 years later
    John never learned his lesson and continues down the road of bad decisions while Susan has made it to the highest paid female Vp in the United States. Susan has now made it into the highest tax bracket in the nation while John has become an alcoholic and gave up on working at all. He now lives off of foodstamps and welfare. He has been offered assistance by the govt to get his life back on track and continues down the road of letting other people pay his way.

    -or-

    John gets a job he finally approves of but has no chance of improving. His choice. He is in one of the lower tax brackets. John works 40 hours a week with a wife and 3 kids. He has buddies over the weekend and has a good time pretty much when he wants to because he still isn’t saving….not even for his 3 kids college. Susan works a minimum of 60 hours and when travelling she runs up to 80 hours away from home. Susan could not find a BF that would put up with her work schedule. Nor does she have any friends that are not work related. She does take 4 weeks vacation every year. Her goal of retirement is 50 and she is on track.

    Question?

    Susan busted her ass , made good decisions early in life, and went without things she wanted for a number of years so her future would be secure.
    John did not. He lived for the day.
    Susan now pays a much higher percentage of her income to the govt to take care of others. She is forced to put her money into tax shelters. She is not free to do what she wants with her money, unless she wants to deal with much less.

    John pays little to nothing

    SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME HOW THIS IS FAIR??????

    Why cant we all pay 10% of our income with NO LOOPHOLES and be done with it. That is fair to me.

    Thanks
    A Simple Man

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    Default Re: A Simple Question

    I'm with you, but I'm pretty simple too...

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    Ah... if only it were true that all those who ended up unfortunate were because of being partiers and all who succeeded was because of diligent hard work and good decisions.

    I mean Paris Hilton is completely deserving of her place on Coach's customer list and all those who invested with Bernie Madoff deserved to be thrown from their homes to be housed by their children.

    Life is far more complicated than that; but it is a nice story given the intentions of it. It kept my attention.

    Maybe someday I will write a story about "I got mine" and how Sue decided to screw her neighbors by moving the job over seas. (And then demand her neighbors to exempt property tax from her business, institute property taxes for her new sports stadium, and bail out her company when so many of her neighbors finally have no money left. Maybe to make it even more entertaining make Sue anti-gun so that only she can have armed guards and Sheila, a 100 pound woman down the street, has to duke it out with drunken 200lbs John with a snow shovel.)

    I mean it is pretty easy to be selfish and non-responsible to the community at large if one can paint them as all losers, now isn't it?

    (And if ya agree with me ya need to push that Thanks button!)

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    Default Re: A Simple Question

    two words ... 'moral hazard'

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    Default Re: A Simple Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    Ah... if only it were true that all those who ended up unfortunate were because of being partiers and all who succeeded was because of diligent hard work and good decisions.

    I mean Paris Hilton is completely deserving of her place on Coach's customer list and all those who invested with Bernie Madoff deserved to be thrown from their homes to be housed by their children.

    Life is far more complicated than that; but it is a nice story given the intentions of it. It kept my attention.

    Maybe someday I will write a story about "I got mine" and how Sue decided to screw her neighbors by moving the job over seas. (And then demand her neighbors to exempt property tax from her business, institute property taxes for her new sports stadium, and bail out her company when so many of her neighbors finally have no money left. Maybe to make it even more entertaining make Sue anti-gun so that only she can have armed guards and Sheila, a 100 pound woman down the street, has to duke it out with drunken 200lbs John with a snow shovel.)

    I mean it is pretty easy to be selfish and non-responsible to the community at large if one can paint them as all losers, now isn't it?

    (And if ya agree with me ya need to push that Thanks button!)
    Yes you will have some people benefit from Daddy or Mommys work. They sure are lucky. Hopefully Mom and Dad will teach them to be responsible. I take it you are for the federal estate tax. Still trying to figure out why 45% of a citizens wealth should go to the govt before his or her kids get anything. The govt did what to deserve this??? It is a shame that those people had money stolen from them by Bernie. I find that very sad. I would hope that none of them actually had all of their life savings put in with him.


    Thank you. I am glad I kept your attention. It was just simple thoughts put on paper.


    I like the Sue story. Did she do her best to keep the jobs in America or did the govt drive her out through obscene taxation and impossible regulations. Was it pure greed on her part, does she hate her fellow American. Did she kick her dog this morning? How did she institute the property taxes? Did she buy off congress? Did the city ever get anything out of her business, I mean besides sales taxes. Did it draw other companies in? Did it increase population and in turn more taxes. I really don’t see why a city would just give up the property tax, without getting some benefit. I think you and I both agree on the bailout. I think everyone should be responsible for the decisions they make, I do not agree with the bailout. I do not know what would have happened if we let them fail. Would a lot of innocent people gotten hurt if we wouldn’t have done it??? Is it our responsibility?? Is life always fair? Should we take everyones income and put in one pot at the end of the week and then cut everyone a equal check? Why did that car run me off the road yesterday and make me hit a mailbox? Shouldn’t someone pay me for that? I bet it was that mean American hating Sue.


    I have to give it to you…you came so close, but just couldn’t help yourself with the name calling…


    You never said yes or no. What if John just decided to take a job that capped out at 50k but was offered a promotion that would increase him to 50 hours a week and would open up all kinds of opportunities for him and he decides against it because he wanted his weekends and free time. Is it fair that susan pays more taxes?

    I guess the point I am trying to make is:

    We all make decisions in life. For those that put in the extra effort and sacrifice---should they be penalized for it? Yes we have some mean dishonest rich folks and some lazy apathetic poor folks. Do we have more of one then the other??? Should that make a difference?? Why shouldn’t everyone pay the same percentage?

    A Simple Man

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    Default Re: A Simple Question

    Life just aint fair.

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    Default Re: A Simple Question

    Stressed,

    You don't need the story to persuade me (or many others) on the same tax for everyone.

    In fact, it is the stories people tell that try to persuade one person should be made to pay more than another.

    I enjoyed the questions you came up with in your response. It illuminates the complexity of the issue, rather than the moral simplicity of the story told.

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    Default Re: A Simple Question

    I do agree with you. There are so many areas where lots of reform is needed, but you know with so much bs in Washington we won't see any sweeping changes any time soon.
    XoXo Gia
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    Default Re: A Simple Question

    People with higher incomes can afford to pay higher tax rates. Unfortunately, that's not the way things work in this country. Wealthier people often pay lower tax rates than middle class Americans. Middle class Americans pay much higher rates for FICA taxes than wealthy Americans. Many wealthy Americans make a significant amount of money from dividends and capital gains, and pay only 15% on their earnings. Wealthy Americans generally live in much more expensive houses than average Americans and are able to deduct a lot more tax from the interest on their mortgage.

    Contrary to the claims of some right-wingers, the system is heavily stacked in favor of wealthy Americans. It's not just a coincidence that income inequality is greater now than it's been, since the Great Depression.

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    Default Re: A Simple Question

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    People with higher incomes can afford to pay higher tax rates. Unfortunately, that's not the way things work in this country. Wealthier people often pay lower tax rates than middle class Americans. Middle class Americans pay much higher rates for FICA taxes than wealthy Americans. Many wealthy Americans make a significant amount of money from dividends and capital gains, and pay only 15% on their earnings. Wealthy Americans generally live in much more expensive houses than average Americans and are able to deduct a lot more tax from the interest on their mortgage.

    Contrary to the claims of some right-wingers, the system is heavily stacked in favor of wealthy Americans. It's not just a coincidence that income inequality is greater now than it's been, since the Great Depression.
    As it is said, "It's class warfare... and the rich won."

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    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    People with higher incomes can afford to pay higher tax rates. Unfortunately, that's not the way things work in this country. Wealthier people often pay lower tax rates than middle class Americans. Middle class Americans pay much higher rates for FICA taxes than wealthy Americans. Many wealthy Americans make a significant amount of money from dividends and capital gains, and pay only 15% on their earnings. Wealthy Americans generally live in much more expensive houses than average Americans and are able to deduct a lot more tax from the interest on their mortgage.

    Contrary to the claims of some right-wingers, the system is heavily stacked in favor of wealthy Americans. It's not just a coincidence that income inequality is greater now than it's been, since the Great Depression.
    If you seriously want wealthier Americans to pay more in taxes then you ought to support a flat tax.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    As it is said, "It's class warfare... and the rich won."
    They usually do. We have a system now that favors EXISTING wealth. We need a system that promotes wealth CREATION.

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    Default Re: A Simple Question

    We have a system now that favors EXISTING wealth. We need a system that promotes wealth CREATION
    Increasingly true. And increasingly '3rd World'.

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    This is the most stereotypical type of story that I hear as an argument from diehard republican friends of mine. They say that they are a republican because they are sick and tired of paying too many taxes(their hard earned money) to support a bunch of welfare, drugged out losers and that this system just enables them to sit on their ass and collect. Well, while it is true that there are people without an ounce of honor or dignity who see fit to abuse the system in place for people with an actual need for it, this is NOT the norm. There are MANY things that are taxes support that a lot of Republicans are FOR by the way(in general) such as THE WAR. The war has been the biggest tax dollar sucker for the last 8+ years. You don't often hear a conservative mention how much of their tax dollars are going towards war and many liberals were against the war in the first place, although we are generally for public health care. I realize that EVERYONE wants to save a buck and keep what they make, and I realize some people feel unfairly targeted since "they worked hard for what they got" why should they pay for losers? However, it is simply not THAT EASILY EXPLAINED. That is very black and white thinking, the tax dollars taken out of people's paychecks support FAR more then just some losers taking advantage of the system, and if we put some of the tax dollars towards instituting a system that did extensive checks to make sure people are not abusing the tax dollar supported system and heavier penalties for doing so, then this problem could be avoided anyway. There are some people who get this, and some who just can't hear it or listen because all they see is that the government is taking some of their hard earned cash and they just can't stand having some of their money skimmed even though it supports the schools kids go to, the roads we drive on, the public safety and sewer systems, the infrastructure and maintenance of it that is a constant, ongoing cost.

    P.S. Here's a cool little snippet about the tax dollars going towards the war(taken from http://www.nationalpriorities.org/tr..._item_item=999)

    Taxpayers in California will pay $114.9 billion for total Iraq & Afghanistan war spending since 2001. For the same amount of money, the following could have been provided:
    47,305,588 People with Health Care for One Year OR
    204,784,939 Homes with Renewable Electricity for One Year OR
    2,053,320 Public Safety Officers for One year OR
    1,623,657 Music and Arts Teachers for One Year OR
    17,273,009 Scholarships for University Students for One Year OR
    21,483,103 Students receiving Pell Grants of $5350 OR
    344,035 Affordable Housing Units OR
    42,963,476 Children with Health Care for One Year OR
    13,748,158 Head Start Places for Children for One Year OR
    1,650,766 Elementary School Teachers for One Year OR
    1,451,653 Port Container Inspectors for One year

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    Default Re: A Simple Question

    We don't often hear about the good, successful people who were on welfare, WIC or other government tax supported social programs because Republicans generally want to only expose the moochers who are abusing this system. It is black and white thinking like this that prevents people who need it not getting what they need. For instance, elderly people who are prevented from getting their monthly medicines because it doesn't cover it(my grandmother for instance has this issue, always being skimped on by her SS insurance and she worked all of her life), prevents veterans who fought in the war from getting the assistance they need now that they are older and have sustained injuries in wars, lets people who should be in the hospital receiving care(mental patients for instance) out because it is cheaper to let them out on the streets to be homeless, etc.

    One major example of someone I know who has been in the system is a good friend of mine. His girlfriend got pregnant when they were 16 and in high school, so they got married (pressure from religious parents at the time) and had that baby. Their parents were not rich and had many of their own kids to support so they were not able to help them substantially. They struggled HARD. They had to switch to home schooling for the rest of their high school years, they took the bus everywhere to their jobs and were on WIC and welfare to support their baby while living in low income housing. He worked 2 jobs to support them, but his minimum wage couldn't cover everything so they needed the government assistance to help pay their bills, and little things always come up with a kid such as unexpected health issues that require expensive health care. Well, they both graduated from local community colleges, then went on to UCLA and both received their bachelor's degrees and are now leading normal, decent lives. If they hadn't received government support during their initial struggling years, they would be far behind and probably wouldn't have been able to make it through college. There ARE success stories of people who deserve the help of tax supported gov't programs and put it to good use.

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    Default Re: A Simple Question

    ^^^ just to interject a couple of inconvenient truths ...

    Your link's cost counter states a total cost of $915.1 billion of combined Iraq plus Afghan war spending over an 8 year period from the 2001 post 9/11 start to last month's end of the 2008 gov't fiscal year. This is a small fraction of the total US Defense budget.

    - the Treasury's TARP bailout / QE purchases have already spent more than this

    - Obama's stimulus package has committed to spending nearly as much

    - combined federal and state social spending greatly exceeds war spending each and every year

    - war spending also provides paychecks for untold numbers of US military personnel, for defense contractor personnel from Boeing to IBM etc.


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    Default Re: A Simple Question

    No one gets anywhere without the help and gifts of others. The "Masters of the Universe" who whine about unfair taxes, and lazy welfare slobs, while crowing about how they got it all from their hard work, conveniently forget about everything that made that possible in the first place.

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    Default Re: A Simple Question

    never brought up republicans or democrats..i did bring up liberal which in my mind does not cover democrats by no means.
    If you want to talk about waste i am sure we could fill this board up with waste of liberal politicians. Like my dollars going to support the arts. the art of smearing shit on the virgin mary. Why cant they get donations from the weirdos that appreciate that stuff? Why am i forced to pay for it? I guess for the same reason people that hate all defense are forced to pay for it. The system sucks yes because we do not hold our lawmakers accountable as we should.
    I am NOT against taxes to help our govt run. I am against taking a higher percentage from one citizen than the other. From some of your post i see a lot of you support a flat tax with no LOOPHOLES.

    No one gets anywhere without the help and gifts of others. The "Masters of the Universe" who whine about unfair taxes, and lazy welfare slobs, while crowing about how they got it all from their hard work, conveniently forget about everything that made that possible in the first place.
    ^^I am grateful for public education and safe home..etc that my father helped pay for. I am sure we all are....i was just trying to understand why some of us have to pay a lot more for that right!!! And the cause you can afford more answer doesnt work!!

    I am a conservative and there are no other countries like ours out there that i know of. There are a ton of socialist countries for all of you that want to change this country. You have a place to go and i dont. So please quit screwing with mine.

    A Simple Man

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    Quote Originally Posted by stressed View Post
    Still trying to figure out why 45% of a citizens wealth should go to the govt before his or her kids get anything. The govt did what to deserve this???
    Because the Government makes it possible for one to become wealthy in the first place, by maintaining the infrastructure, educating the workers, protecting the nation from foreign and domestic invaders, building the roads, and ports and airports, and incarcerating the criminals.

    How many wealthy people do you think would emerge if the government did none of this? Most corporations would look to more amiable countries in which to do business if the initial investment was too large to be profitable.

    Some things just have to be done as part of the commonwealth of a nation. If we waited for private industry to build the interstate highway system, we'd all still be jumping on ocean liners or trains to get around, the auto industry would have never become the giant it is today, and forget about companies like UPS and FedEx and all the trucking companies ever coming into existence in the first place.

    Some times we have to pull together and take care of things together as a nation. The large inheritance tax is designed to break up family dynasties. We do not have royalty in this country. If all the wealth stays in a few elite families for generation after generation, all we have left is a ruling elite. This may be appealing to some people, but most of us like the idea that anyone can make it in America, not just those with the correct name or ability to marry into the right family.

    The other reason why taxation needs to be progressive is because the very poorest of our population cannot afford a 10% flat tax. You wouldn't want grandmothers starving to death just to pay their taxes, would you? How about single moms and dads just doing everything they can to put food on the table? You would take 10% of their incomes away because the math is too hard to figure out otherwise?

    If your solutions is an easy one, it is also probably the wrong answer.


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    Default Re: A Simple Question

    The one problem with a FLAT TAX is that a person making only 20,000/yr pays the same percentage as a person making 200,000/yr. The 20K person is strapped with basic costs such as simple housing, food, transport to job, healthcare, education for advancement, etc. But the 200K person has much more room to improve himself, and provide for his family etc. It may not be because of drinking and partying, but choice of careers, genetics, etc. Conservatives like to think that in their simplified way of thinking about the world. In fact he may work harder than the 200K person, even giving up some of his health for work, just not be as fortunate in resource terms. There needs to be a forgiveness for basic needs built into a flat tax, one which would hardly affect the 200K person.

    Second thing, this country has been built upon financial favors given mainly to corporations -- allowances, credits, amortizations of various kinds. The common man has received relatively little of those benefits. It is not reasonable to continue giving financial favors to corporations that the common man has to pay for. If the common man has no loopholes, then corprations get no loopholes either. (So say the populists.)

    Third thing, among others, the federal government has had a tremendous influence on our "way of life" thru tax inceitives given both to the common man and to corporations. Everything the government does could have been done some other way and our life would have been different. Just think of transportation alone -- roads, railroads, buses, airlines and airports -- lots of choices were made with tax incentives and subsidies. Think of that in other categories -- food industry, health industry, the military, many others that are the way they are because of government support. Which we the people by and large have allowed. So no loopholes idea would have a huge impact on our "way of life" for better or worse. Are we prepared for that? I say NO.
    Last edited by threlayer; 10-31-2009 at 05:30 PM.
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    Default Re: A Simple Question

    I know a man that believes that he is not responsible for every american in this world and that although it is sad that some will suffer that is life. He says the weak and helpless will be taken care of by the charity of the people. He has given 100's of thousands of dollars to charities and orphanages over the years, not to mention many locals that have fundraisers around here. He keeps it on the down low as he doesnt want to be glorified. Some people call him a saint others a selfish bastard. I believe there are more people out there like this than what people think.

    They dont mind giving there money to help others, they just want to control it because the govt is so damn bad at it. I know that this is not feasible, but i do know of a few like this. A lot of rich people do help, you just dont see it. It is only the glory hounds that give for the wrong reasons that are pasted all over the media. I believe in the good of all people so it is hard for me to watch the media post nothing but bad things about rich people and apply it toooooo all. In the same breath we saw tons of coverage of people scamming the govt after hurricane Katrina and Rita. All of a sudden everyone in Louisiana was a bunch bastards stealing from the taxpayers. There was a tremendous amount of fraud, but the saddest thing about it all, was so many good people that didnt know how to work the system or just gave up because every where they turned it was more red tape. They said the hell with it, i am going to help myself and didnt get any help from the govt. They were not in a situation to where they could just sit back and wait to collect, like so many. So many of the companies around here pulled together to help. People helped each other. I believe that is the true backbone of America. We care about each other....it is just a shame that the govt and media has bastarized ....is that a word...lol...can you tell i like using the word bastard....haha....anyway they have brainwashed the people into thinking one group wants to kill your grandma and the other group wants to take your guns, your dog, and your right to piss off the porch in the middle of night as you check to see if the cold front came in yet

    I dunno if any of this is making sense, but i do feel better writing it

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    Default Re: A Simple Question

    What about people who graduated and come out of college in debt(because they didn't have family who could help them pay for school or the ability to strip,etc) only to get a job that doesn't pay well? People who become social workers and teachers, for instance. These people were certainly not lazy and are helping society with their services but are usually paid much less then business men and other corporate types but we could not do without their services. If these people who are already working with less money but getting by(a teacher making $35,000 a year for instance while supporting their family) are forced to pay the same amount of taxes as someone who is making $100,000+, there will be less people going into those lesser paying fields. I think a big problem with our education system is that teachers are not paid enough therefore less people become teachers. I believe this is also one of the reasons our public education system is suffering, because not as many good people are going into teaching knowing how little they will make.

  28. #23
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    Default Re: A Simple Question

    Consider the simple act of having a shit.

    You sit down on a nice toilet. Who made it? Who are the people who had a hand in manufacturing that toilet? The plant workers, the suppliers of the plant, the shippers, the utilities supplying the plant and the people required to provide that, and all the people who provide food and goods and housing and utilities and support for all those people...

    Not to mention the toilet paper....and all the people who have a hand in that little product. And don't even get me started on the sewage plant workers, and pipe layers, so you can flush those turds away without a care about where they go. So many people doing what they do, paying their little share of the taxes, holding up their part of the bargain.

    All of these people support you. And they all have dependents and people who support them. We are all connected in some way. All six billion of us. We all support each other. No one is an island.

    If you are one of the lucky ones who reside in the top echelons of the financial stratosphere, the next time you sit down to take a shit, take a minute to think about all the people who make your good life possible. Big or small, we are all important.

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    Default Re: A Simple Question

    Quote Originally Posted by stressed View Post
    Yes you will have some people benefit from Daddy or Mommys work. They sure are lucky. Hopefully Mom and Dad will teach them to be responsible. I take it you are for the federal estate tax. Still trying to figure out why 45% of a citizens wealth should go to the govt before his or her kids get anything. The govt did what to deserve this??? It is a shame that those people had money stolen from them by Bernie. I find that very sad. I would hope that none of them actually had all of their life savings put in with him.
    Nobody gives the government 45% of their wealth before it goes to their children. Most people don't pay any federal estate tax.

    Quote Originally Posted by stressed View Post

    Thank you. I am glad I kept your attention. It was just simple thoughts put on paper.


    I like the Sue story. Did she do her best to keep the jobs in America or did the govt drive her out through obscene taxation and impossible regulations. Was it pure greed on her part, does she hate her fellow American. Did she kick her dog this morning? How did she institute the property taxes? Did she buy off congress? Did the city ever get anything out of her business, I mean besides sales taxes. Did it draw other companies in? Did it increase population and in turn more taxes. I really don’t see why a city would just give up the property tax, without getting some benefit. I think you and I both agree on the bailout. I think everyone should be responsible for the decisions they make, I do not agree with the bailout. I do not know what would have happened if we let them fail. Would a lot of innocent people gotten hurt if we wouldn’t have done it??? Is it our responsibility?? Is life always fair? Should we take everyones income and put in one pot at the end of the week and then cut everyone a equal check? Why did that car run me off the road yesterday and make me hit a mailbox? Shouldn’t someone pay me for that? I bet it was that mean American hating Sue.


    I have to give it to you…you came so close, but just couldn’t help yourself with the name calling…


    You never said yes or no. What if John just decided to take a job that capped out at 50k but was offered a promotion that would increase him to 50 hours a week and would open up all kinds of opportunities for him and he decides against it because he wanted his weekends and free time. Is it fair that susan pays more taxes?

    I guess the point I am trying to make is:

    We all make decisions in life. For those that put in the extra effort and sacrifice---should they be penalized for it? Yes we have some mean dishonest rich folks and some lazy apathetic poor folks. Do we have more of one then the other??? Should that make a difference?? Why shouldn’t everyone pay the same percentage?

    A Simple Man
    Your story is nothing more than a story. I could just as easily come up with a story showing poor people working hard to earn their money and lazy rich people who sit at home and watch tv all day.

    Nobody is "penalized" for extra effort and hard work. We just expect people to pay their fair share of taxes for the benefits they receive by living in this country. Poor people can't afford to pay the same percentage as wealthy people. Poor people are entitled to keep enough money to feed and clothe themselves before they pay taxes.

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    Default Re: A Simple Question

    Quote Originally Posted by stressed View Post

    ^^I am grateful for public education and safe home..etc that my father helped pay for. I am sure we all are....i was just trying to understand why some of us have to pay a lot more for that right!!! And the cause you can afford more answer doesnt work!!

    I am a conservative and there are no other countries like ours out there that i know of. There are a ton of socialist countries for all of you that want to change this country. You have a place to go and i dont. So please quit screwing with mine.

    A Simple Man
    It's not your country, it is our (the American people) country. You do not have the right to dictate your ideology to the rest of us. We've already seen how disastrous it is.

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