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Thread: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

  1. #26
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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    ^^^ again, as is the case with the law school thread, the 'globalization' factor is likely to increasingly apply to engineering activities. As such, for an engineer who is at the 'top of the class' at a 'name' engineering university, the possibilities remain virtually unlimited. However, for an engineer who graduates in the middle of his class at a 'no name' engineering university, the prospect of having to compete with outsourced work to much lower cost foreign firms is a significant force for downward pressure on 'run of the mill' US engineer pay rates.

    From the 'globalized' standpoint, the 'certificate' holding US technician faces far less price competition since, in general, the types of hands-on work the mechanical / electrical technicians performs is not nearly as 'outsourceable' as, say, a number crunching engineering analysis or design project.

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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    Globalization CANNOT force us to become a dummy burger-slinging society. Price competition is also an issue, as it always is, but it will not force us out of our education infrastructure.

    What you're discussing, if it were carried out as you've explained, will turn our society head over heels. And we will not let our politicians to do nothing while that occurs. Blood would flow first.

    I believe your predictions are just overly pessimistic and you yourself cannot see a way out, so you don't think anyone else can.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    Adding an additional worry there is now a proposal to tax hedge funds and private investment partnerships at 35% instead of the current Capital Gains treatment that they currently receive. Congress is listening to the outrage of "Main Street" in putting forth such a dumb idea. While trying to reach "carried interest" they are ignoring the risk element of these vehicles.

    Impact for dancers- fewer "whales" with less money.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 12-11-2009 at 11:28 AM.

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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    ^^^ well, like employment in general, what the private sector is losing the public sector may make up for !!!

    (snip)"The number of federal workers earning six-figure salaries has exploded during the recession, according to a USA TODAY analysis of federal salary data.

    Federal employees making salaries of $100,000 or more jumped from 14% to 19% of civil servants during the recession's first 18 months — and that's before overtime pay and bonuses are counted.

    Federal workers are enjoying an extraordinary boom time — in pay and hiring — during a recession that has cost 7.3 million jobs in the private sector.

    The highest-paid federal employees are doing best of all on salary increases. Defense Department civilian employees earning $150,000 or more increased from 1,868 in December 2007 to 10,100 in June 2009, the most recent figure available.

    When the recession started, the Transportation Department had only one person earning a salary of $170,000 or more. Eighteen months later, 1,690 employees had salaries above $170,000.

    The trend to six-figure salaries is occurring throughout the federal government, in agencies big and small, high-tech and low-tech. The primary cause: substantial pay raises and new salary rules."(snip)

    from


    Impact for dancers - forget about small city clubs, and start thinking about clubs in cities that are state capitals ... that have large (non-military) federal installations ... that have large international airports etc. ... where large numbers of highly paid federal employees will be found !

  5. #30
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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    There was a populist theory, pre-Reagan, that 'earned income' is honest work (labor) and that ought to be taxed at a lower rate than investment and other 'unearned' income. Instead it is taxed currently at a much higher rate.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    that 'earned income' is honest work (labor) and that ought to be taxed at a lower rate than investment and other 'unearned' income. Instead it is taxed currently at a much higher rate.
    actually, this wasn't just a populist theory ... it was the constitutionally backed 'law of the land' until the 16th amendment 'legalized' the direct taxation of 'earned income'.

    from a pragmatic standpoint, when world leaders of ~100 years ago ( beginning in 1894-95 specifically ) wanted to adopt a 'tax and spend' policy to address an economic depression ... which required the collection of far higher tax revenues than had ever been previously dreamed of ... they quickly figured out that 'unearned income' (and the financial assets from which it stemmed) was elusive because it was 'portable'. In contrast, the 'earned income' of workers was not similarly 'portable' ... thus a much easier 'target' from which to raise tax revenues. In other words, Swiss Banks were doing a booming business in secret accounts for the uber-rich ~100 years ago just as they are today !

    (snip)"In 1895, the income tax issue arose again, this time in a period of extreme political tension. In the midst of the populist movement, conservatives seized upon the tax issue as a question of great moral importance. “The act of Congress which we are impugning before you is communistic in its purposes and tendencies,” argued Joseph Choate before the Supreme Court in *Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Co. (1895; p. 537). Failure to strike down the tax, Choate told the justices, would endanger “the very keystone of the arch upon which all civilized government rests” (p. 534). The Court's first decision in Pollock, in April 1895, produced a deadlock on the key issues, with the justices divided 4 to 4 on whether the income tax was a direct tax per se and thus unconstitutional. (Justice Howell Jackson, who was ill, did not participate.)

    The Court then held another set of hearings, and two weeks later produced a 5‐to‐4 decision striking down the tax on the grounds that income taxes were, per se, direct taxes. Surprisingly, Jackson was in the minority, meaning that one of the four justices who had voted to uphold the tax in the first Pollock decision had switched his vote. The political consequences of the Court's decision were significant. It energized the conservative wing of the Democratic party, providing the key momentum for the conservatives' subsequent takeover of the party at the 1896 convention.

    Confusion on whether an income tax was or was not a direct tax continued even after Pollock. In Flint v. Stone (1911) the Court upheld a tax on the income of corporations as an indirect tax on the privilege of doing business in the corporate form. Finally, in 1913, the states ratified the Sixteenth Amendment, explicitly granting to Congress the power “to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."(snip) from West's Encyclopedia

    Another key 'change' in US gov't economic fundamentals also occurred in this same time period i.e. the infamous Morgan Bonds deal ... which constituted the de-facto change in the control of US gov't finance away from the US treasury and toward Wall St. See . Arguably this was also responsible for the de-facto birth of an 'easy money' US dollar ( whose international value now became subject to the manipulations of Wall St / international bankers )

    Yet another key 'change' in US gov't economic fundamentals also began in this same time period ... i.e. what would eventually be called the Spanish / American War ... which arguably constituted the first instance of a war being contrived by a consortium of gov't / Wall St / US media in order to stimulate the US economy via greatly increased gov't war materiel spending and in order to reduce US unemployment via expansion of US military 'jobs'.

    Why don't US schools ever teach this portion of the country's 'economic' history ?

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 12-11-2009 at 09:58 PM.

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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    Quote Originally Posted by KiwiStrawberry Splenda View Post
    My parents are the same age, both engineers in the mechanical arena (NOT mechanics). They have the same amount of experience. My father got the equivalent of a technician's diploma, and various certifications over the years. He did a lot of apprentice kind of work, learned on the job. My mom got equivalent pf master's degree from a proper university and went to work for large companies. She makes well over 6 figures, and has for over a decade. My dad just had to take a pay cut after getting laid off, and now maybe makes $50K a year, at age 60, with 35 years experience.

    These are just average people, they just want to work and make a living, they never wanted to be the next CEO of Shlumberger, or invent the laptop. That's more of what you're likely to have seen with the scenario Melonie described.

    Although, who knows, times are changing.
    it has never been 'average' to have the career opportunities and top 5% income described here for both a man and a woman, particularly not several decades ago when college attendance was much rarer and thus a real path to high income for attendees who weren't already well off.

    especially considering that the top engineering school in texas was free until 1965, so debt or expense wasn't even an issue. i actually know several engineers who went to that school 'when it was free' and they were able to parlay that into millions of dollars of income (even 50k/yr for 30 years is 1.5 million, and they were getting more, and for like 40 years until retirement), without even the risk of racking up student debt.

  9. #33
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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    Thank you, Mel, for an interesting treatise on early federal taxation policy.

    The schools only teach what is in the textbooks but who decides what that is?
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    The schools only teach what is in the textbooks but who decides what that is?
    well, I think that we both know the answer to that question ... but the answer is a topic for a different forum !

    The larger point, and the one which is potentially most relevant to upscale dancers, is indeed the fact that 'wealth' ... and 'wealth generation' is portable. Thus as America increases tax rates on 'earned income', as well as attempts to increase tax rates on certain forms of 'unearned income' ... an ever stronger motivation exists for those who generate such earned incomes, as well as those who own / manage the assets that generate unearned incomes ... to 'transplant' that income to a jurisdiction outside of high tax rate jurisdictions.

    In certain cases ( for example Wall St. in Manhattan ), fully 25% of all state tax revenues are generated by a comparative handful of high earning people who live and work in a comparatively very small area. Arguably, the same sort of 'funding ratio' also applies to the upscale clubs in that same area and the dancers who work in them. And if an increasing number of those high earning people are 'driven' to move their operations and assets outside the USA to minimize the impact of increased US tax rates, NY state tax revenues and upscale NY club earnings potential are both likely to fall precipitously.

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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ again, as is the case with the law school thread, the 'globalization' factor is likely to increasingly apply to engineering activities. As such, for an engineer who is at the 'top of the class' at a 'name' engineering university, the possibilities remain virtually unlimited. However, for an engineer who graduates in the middle of his class at a 'no name' engineering university, the prospect of having to compete with outsourced work to much lower cost foreign firms is a significant force for downward pressure on 'run of the mill' US engineer pay rates.

    From the 'globalized' standpoint, the 'certificate' holding US technician faces far less price competition since, in general, the types of hands-on work the mechanical / electrical technicians performs is not nearly as 'outsourceable' as, say, a number crunching engineering analysis or design project.
    http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/career-arti...n_america-1057

    Civil engineers earned mean annual wages of $78,560 in 2008, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), and the job is expected to see a high level of future growth.

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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    ^^^ again that was then and this is now. The most disturbing recent trend affecting civil engineers is that some states have used their block grant federal stimulus money to 'outsource' some expensive brick and mortar construction projects to ASIAN engineering firms ... in order to take advantage of major cost savings ! While the feds have enacted rules that stimulus projects must use American materials and unionized American labor, so far there has been no such ruling where design and engineering are concerned.

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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    That's the most recent data there is.

    Which major civil engineering projects are being outsourced to Asian firms?

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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    From China Daily ...

    (snip)"China State Construction Engineering Corp, the largest contractor in China, has bagged a subway ventilation project worth about $100 million in New York's Manhattan area, marking the construction giant's third order in the United States' infrastructure space this year.

    The contract was given to China Construction American Co, a subsidiary, the Wall Street Journal quoted a source as saying.

    "The new project, along with the $410-million Hamilton Bridge project and a $1.7-billion entertainment project it won earlier this year, signals China State Construction's ambition to tap the American construction market," said Li Zhirui, an industry analyst at First Capital Securities.

    The three orders only account for about 4 percent of the value of its total orders this year, Li added.

    In the first three quarters of this year, the Chinese construction giant signed more than $2 billion worth of contracts in the US market."(snip)


    I'll also reiterate that US stimulus projects / public sector projects carry a 'prevailing wage' requirement for construction workers' pay rate, and carry a US content requirement on materials used. Thus the only major area open to Asian firms to make their bids highly competitive is via lower cost engineering and design work being done at their 'home office' in Beijing or Mumbai.

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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    The subsidiary working on this project is based in Jersey City, NJ, not China.

    http://www.chinaconstruction.us/default.asp

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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    ^^^ yup, they need an American 'front' in order to be considered for stimulus related projects, as well as US credentials to get their designs / plans approved. However, the fact that a couple of executives and project managers and professional engineers are located in New Jersey does not mean that the additional department full of architects / engineers / drafters / designers necessary to actually support the project are also located in New Jersey !

    In point of fact, they are located in China and getting paid $ 15-20 an hour - which is 10 times the wage rate for Chinese factory workers, but a 'pittance' compared to the cost of hiring additional engineers in New Jersey. This is especially the case when the Chinese architects / engineers / drafters / designers can be hired without the employer having to worry about paying Social Security / medicare taxes, paying unemployment / disability insurance premiums, paying for health insurance coverage, paying for retirement plan contributions etc. as would be necessary in New Jersey. In other words, having engineering work done in China costs the employer perhaps $30-40k a year 'all in', compared to an 'all in' cost of at least $120k per year for a similar engineer in New Jersey.

    Actually, this same sort of 'outsourced professional services' business model is already in operation for other professions ... notably law firms, medical diagnostics, accounting, I.T., etc. The 'outsourced professional services' business model requires that a handful of fully credentialed US professionals act as 'front men', but with the vast majority of the real 'work' actually being done offshore using much lower cost non-US professionals - with their work product then being 'sent' back to the 'front men' on a daily basis.

    However, from what I have been told, where offshore professionals are concerned the hardest thing to find are people who are fully acquainted with the US way of doing things. THIS is the reason that opportunities exist for US professionals who are willing to relocate offshore ... and be paid extremely well ... to 'guide' that department full of Chinese / Indian / whatever 'homegrown' professionals who are doing 'work' for the US market. And coincidentally, this brings us full circle back to the original thread topic !

    But in the final analysis, retaining two fully credentialed US professionals as 'front men', and adding an offshore US professional as a 'guide', is still a huge net loss because 10-20-30 US professionals who formerly did the real 'work' have been replaced with 20-30-50 Chinese / Indian / whatever 'homegrown' professionals at 1/4 to 1/3 of the former 'all in' total labor cost.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 12-16-2009 at 12:40 AM.

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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    I don't know what the exact demand is for civil engineers, but CareerBuilder.com currently has 12,504 engineering jobs listed, so there is a demand for engineers today.

    http://www.careerbuilder.com/JobSeek...%3bJDV%3dFalse

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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    ^^^ if you had taken a few minutes to look through your own link, you'll find ...

    - a significant number of the job listings are for 'sales engineers' - which given today's major cutbacks in capital investment probably pays about as well as being an assistant manager at WalMart

    - a significant number of the job listings are for openings in foreign countries

    - a significant number of the job listings are directly listed as temporary ... with an additional number of listings probably also being 'temporary' since they are with companies that typically perform defense / gov't contract work ( and are thus tied to stimulus funding )

    - a significant number of the job listings are for technicians not engineers


    While most of the listings did not include salary info, a few that did were quite telling. One in particular was a utility looking for an Electrical Engineer with TEN YEARS worth of specific experience on high voltage equipment offering a starting salary of $60k per year. That's an awful lot of 'responsibility' to accept for that sort of money.

    I would also add that the 10,000 actual listings for engineers of all types and disciplines ( after subtracting the sales jobs and technician jobs) ... and probably <7,000 actual listings for engineering jobs located within the USA, must be kept in perspective against a workforce of 100,000,000 Americans.

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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ if you had taken a few minutes to look through your own link, you'll find ...

    - a significant number of the job listings are for 'sales engineers' - which given today's major cutbacks in capital investment probably pays about as well as being an assistant manager at WalMart
    again you're making things up. I know sales engineers with six figure incomes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    - a significant number of the job listings are for openings in foreign countries
    I didn't see a single opening for a position in a foreign country. I don't even think CareerBuilder list openings in foreign countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    - a significant number of the job listings are directly listed as temporary ... with an additional number of listings probably also being 'temporary' since they are with companies that typically perform defense / gov't contract work ( and are thus tied to stimulus funding )
    Most weren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    - a significant number of the job listings are for technicians not engineers
    Most weren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    While most of the listings did not include salary info, a few that did were quite telling. One in particular was a utility looking for an Electrical Engineer with TEN YEARS worth of specific experience on high voltage equipment offering a starting salary of $60k per year. That's an awful lot of 'responsibility' to accept for that sort of money.
    Some that did include salary info offered very good salaries.

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    These were all on the first few pages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    I would also add that the 10,000 actual listings for engineers of all types and disciplines ( after subtracting the sales jobs and technician jobs) ... and probably <7,000 actual listings for engineering jobs located within the USA, must be kept in perspective against a workforce of 100,000,000 Americans.
    This is just one career site. It's not every job opening in the US. The fact that there are so many jobs listed shows there is a big demand for engineers. As of now, the list has added over 300 jobs since I posted the link.

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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    I'm not going to waste a ton of time defending my point, so I'll just analyze the 25 job listings on the very first page of your website ...

    - only 16 of the 25 are for full time positions ( the rest are per diem, part time or contractor )

    - only 18 of the 25 are arguably actual engineering positions ( the rest are technicians or sales / inventory related)

    - the highest pay rate quoted was $85-$100k a year for a position in high tax, high cost of living California. The position requires a BSEE plus TEN YEARS specific experience in power generation.

    This position also involves the following work conditions ... "While performing the duties of this job, the employee is regularly exposed to fumes or airborne particles and risk of electrical shock. The employee is frequently exposed to moving mechanical parts and outside weather conditions. The employee is occasionally exposed to wet and/or humid conditions, toxic or caustic chemicals, and vibration. The noise level in the work environment is usually loud." Additionally, it is implied that the responsibilities associated with this position ... "Oversees all power production activities including operations and maintenance including corrective, preventative, and predictive maintenance. " ... involve 24/7 call-in potential. In the grand scheme of things, that's a lot to ask in exchange for an after tax income of $50k-$60k per year in an area where average home mortgage payments run $25k per year.

    Also, by sheer coincidence, the newly posted position I just described is for the SAME power plant position I previously pointed out.
    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 12-17-2009 at 08:07 PM.

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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    If one wants to know about scandal in outsourcing and reduced opportunities for professional STEM workers, one need go no further than reading:

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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    Temporary engineering positions have been pretty common for years, though now likely more common. This is the same with programmer jobs (and IT jobs as well). The success of enginering companies in landing big contracts needing extra help has always been a bit spotty. Just a point of order.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    Just wanted to point out that initially the manufacturing jobs shifted to Mexico. As Mexico got too expensive, the factories got took apart and sent to China. In the most recent number of years, businessmen found China getting expensive, thus moved operations to Vietnam. If Africa ever got politically stable, this could be the last place to for cheap labor.

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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    ^^^ mainstream financial media refers to this as 'global wage arbitrage' ... and indeed those companies who are not geographically or legally restrained from doing so will 'chase' the cheapest labor costs. This of course assumes that environmental compliance costs, worker safety compliance costs, energy costs, worker benefit costs etc. also decrease right along with the labor rate.

    And while this 'global wage arbitrage' got started with low paying unskilled work, it has expanded 'upwards' to include an increasing share of technical / engineering / accounting / legal / medical etc. jobs. For example, one of the latest trends for self-insuring corporations is to 'ship' their US employees in need of expensive surgeries etc. to a 3rd world country for treatment. As mentioned earlier, nitty gritty engineering design and analysis work is now being 'farmed out' to China / India etc. Similar developments have already taken place re certain legal work, accounting work, medical records work etc.

    To again underline the 'bottom line', as (mandated) overall costs of doing business in the USA continue to increase, US companies will make ever greater efforts to minimize US employment. By 'outsourcing' professional work, not only do US employers totally avoid the 8% employer's SSI tax, but they are also able to avoid certain employee benefit costs ( like health insurance, disability and unemployment insurance, non-SSI retirement benefits ), certain potential litigation costs, certain components of energy costs etc. on top of the basic difference in employee pay rates.

    But in order for US companies to 'liaise' well with 'offshore' professional work, it's necessary to insert an American 'expert' on premisis where the 'offshore' professional work is being done. These jobs pay extremely well, and are being seriously considered by a growing number of US professionals. And besides the pay rate, if out of the USA more than 330 days per year, those US professionals also get to avoid paying employee SSI and medicare taxes, avoid paying income taxes on their first $90,000+ of offshore income etc. For a $100k professional, this could mean the difference between 'taking home' $95k versus $55k !!!

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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    Quote Originally Posted by 1st_samurai View Post
    Just wanted to point out that initially the manufacturing jobs shifted to Mexico. As Mexico got too expensive, the factories got took apart and sent to China. In the most recent number of years, businessmen found China getting expensive, thus moved operations to Vietnam. If Africa ever got politically stable, this could be the last place to for cheap labor.
    not if, but when. many african countries are currently stable and courting investment dollars and doing pretty well with it.

    that said, when everyone on the planet has had a turn at being on the bottom of the salary heap, what happens to the cost of goods when the cheapest person demands 10/hr and you cannot get anyone to do it for less?

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    Default Re: US 'Professionals' seek overseas jobs ...

    ^^^ well, if the typical Chinese manufacturing wage is $2 an hour (versus say an $8 an hour US minimum wage), and labor content comprises 1/2 of the wholesale cost of the manufactured product, then you can count on retail prices for virtually every Asian import from TV's to cell phones to appliances to clothing to commodity foods to 'you name it' on US store shelves to DOUBLE in US dollar terms ! With no change in US incomes ( actually, after-tax incomes are likely to decline significantly due to rising tax rates ), and a doubling of prices for the lowest cost 'bottom shelf' options available to US shoppers, the US standard of living will finally 'equalize' with actual US productivity at a level much lower than exists today.

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