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Thread: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

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    Default PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    It's a little random, but I read today that law school applications are at an all time high.

    http://moststronglysupported.com/blo...ave-a-problem/

    When times were good, it didn't make financial sense (on average) to go to law school unless it was a top 20/25 school. Now, it's more like top 10/15. The rest of the people applying are not doing themselves a favor. There are no lawyer jobs waiting for bad lawyers.

    It's the same story for people getting an MBA. It used to be that a top 20 MBA was good enough to at least interview for a decent gig at a big bank or PE firm. Now, it's closer to top 5. And applications are through the roof almost everywhere.

    Basically, unless you're going to one of those elite schools, grad school isn't the answer.

    End of rant.

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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    I know it is a very small portion of the population, but some of us (me) study more as a CYA for our other endeavor's than for a job. (I am however, a job creator and not a job consumer, so my outlook on education is slightly different.)

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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackstone View Post
    ...When times were good, it didn't make financial sense (on average) to go to law school unless it was a top 20/25 school. Now, it's more like top 10/15. The rest of the people applying are not doing themselves a favor. There are no lawyer jobs waiting for bad lawyers.
    That's because they already have them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackstone View Post
    It's the same story for people getting an MBA...Basically, unless you're going to one of those elite schools, grad school isn't the answer.
    Now, why is that? Not everyone can be a lawyer for a huge corporation or a top ten partnership. This seems like such an elitist thread.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    MBAs are useless these days. Everyone is onto their game. Good way to meet chicks from what I have seen at the "Get to know our program" seminars though. Especially if it is cohort style heh heh heh.

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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    This is actually a 'special case' of a more general point raised in an earlier thread discussing whether or not the cost ( and lost opportunity costs ) of obtaining a college degree, versus the potential improvement in income level, is still a worthwhile investment. The gist of both your 'special case' and the general case appear to be very similar ...

    - there are now simply too many out-of-work experienced professionals willing to accept 'entry level' employment for new graduates to have much of an opportunity of being hired for those 'entry level' positions

    - of the 'entry level' positions not filled by out-of-work experienced professionals, potential employers may have 3 - 10 - 30 times as many applications from inexperienced new graduates than they have unfilled positions to offer

    - as a result, potential employers are highly likely to 'cherry pick' the available new graduates ... which typically means that a degree from a 'name' college is now a basic requirement, and by implication that a degree from a 'no-name' college is likely to be passed over. There is also an almost total disregard for most 'state college' degree holders these days, since 'state college' curricula have recently been 'watered down' to avoid flunking out a major percentage of enrolled students.

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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    This has nothing to do with elitism. It's simple economics. In Texas, the state supported law schools cost $20k/year to attend in tuition alone. Add in basic living expenses, and you're easily in $100k of debt after three years. Even on federally subsidized loans, that's about $1000 in loan
    payments per month.

    An entry level job at a non-elite law firm is paying about $30-35k/year now. Suburban DA offices pay starts in the upper 30's to low 40's. Big city DA offices do pay better, but they're drawing top tier talent right now. In other words, if you go to a non-elite law school, you're paying $100k and three years lost wages to get a job that pays about $15/hr. This is probably a bad investment.

    What is truly frightening is the situation people who are at private schools are in. Some
    of them have north of $200k in student loans, and no possible way to pay them off.

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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    Thanks for the clarification.

    Unless something very revolutionary has happened in the professional H.R. employment specialist situation, which is very traditional, they will just say "too much experience" "overqualified" etc to experienced people applying for entry-level positions. So I think that statement is errone.ous.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    ^^^ rejections for being 'overqualified' have traditionally been based on the would-be employer's assumption that when a well-qualified and experienced applicant is offered an 'entry level' job that their true goal is to 'tread water' for a few weeks / months while waiting for a better ( non-entry level paycheck ) job to become available somewhere else. However, as the article intimates, this tradition is now changing because non-entry level professional job opportunities have been (permanently) reduced.


    An entry level job at a non-elite law firm is paying about $30-35k/year now. Suburban DA offices pay starts in the upper 30's to low 40's. Big city DA offices do pay better, but they're drawing top tier talent right now. In other words, if you go to a non-elite law school, you're paying $100k and three years lost wages to get a job that pays about $15/hr. This is probably a bad investment.

    What is truly frightening is the situation people who are at private schools are in. Some
    of them have north of $200k in student loans, and no possible way to pay them off.
    again, another example of a 'special case' which is also shared with many other professions.

    From a financial standpoint, the 'lost opportunity cost' ... in your 'special case' example of lawyers giving up three years worth of earnings potential at a different job in order to attend law school , which is of course on top of also giving up 3/4 years worth of previous potential earnings at a different job in order to obtain a pre-law bachelor's degree ... really adds up in any 'time value of money' analysis.

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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    Thanks for the clarification.

    Unless something very revolutionary has happened in the professional H.R. employment specialist situation, which is very traditional, they will just say "too much experience" "overqualified" etc to experienced people applying for entry-level positions. So I think that statement is errone.ous.
    Ya just dumb down your resume. Lots of people do it.

    I was on one project and some guy (an idiot) was shit talking another guy's abilities and education - the look on his face when I told him he had a PhD in the field was classic.

    So the moral of the story is, if you dumb down your resume, prepare to be treated with disrespect. (As anyone working minimum wage can attest to I suppose.)

    Ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

    Business is like poker, ya don't show all your cards and you play only the cards you need to.

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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    Law degrees are so popular because they are the only high paying careers that don't require any math education.

    I've been pounding calculus into my brain 5 hours a day for months now. Yeah it's hard. No, it's not fun. But it is also required for a BS in Economics.

    Basically, if you want a high paying career and are bad at math, it's law school or take your chances with a career in the arts and hope you are talented enough to hit the big time (1 out of 100 or less will actually make a profitable career out of an artistic education).


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    They know math all right: $ + $ = $$$$$$$$

    ( as long as it's someone else's $ )

    About the entry level concept: I'll ask my assignment 'consultant' to see if it has wandered over here yet.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    Law degrees are so popular because they are the only high paying careers that don't require any math education.

    I've been pounding calculus into my brain 5 hours a day for months now. Yeah it's hard. No, it's not fun. But it is also required for a BS in Economics.

    Basically, if you want a high paying career and are bad at math, it's law school or take your chances with a career in the arts and hope you are talented enough to hit the big time (1 out of 100 or less will actually make a profitable career out of an artistic education).
    calculus is easy (and fun!). it is easier than linear algebra (matrix math is confusing to do by hand).

    you can do some kinds of high-paying IT work without a math background. testing (as long as it's not video games) is a pretty good example. it is true that without a strong math background, you do have to hunt around a lot more to find higher-paying work opportunities than if you can do math up through calculus.

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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackstone View Post
    Basically, unless you're going to one of those elite schools, grad school isn't the answer.
    Some say that now is the perfect time for grad school. The economy is going to be in the toilet for the next few years. Since there are no good jobs available anywhere, why not spend the next 3 years sheltered from the storm in law school and emerge with a law degree, just in time when the corporations and law firms are beginning to hire lawyers again.

    You just have to be smart in anticipating where the jobs will be over the next decade. If the collapse of investment banking firms causes complex new banking and finance regulations, there will be many new legal jobs in both the private and public sector trying to sort all this out.

    Tax lawyers are still sorting through the 1986 overhaul of our federal income tax laws. An overhaul of banking laws and regulations should give lawyers plenty of work to do for the next decade or more.

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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    Right now there are many unemployed lawyers so even a name brand school often won't help. Years ago I considered law school but saw that it would cost about $100,00 for the three years at a good school and many lawyers don't make much out of school. I have a Masters and it never paid off for me.

    And the whole overqualified issue doesn't mean entry level won't get hired. I'm seeing that I'm being bypassed for jobs for a recent college grad because I am "overqualified". Sad thing is I probably need the job more than a recent grad yet places bypass me. Of course the longer I go unemployed the harder it gets for me to find a job because places don't want to hire you if you haven't been working.

    I would tell anyone thinking of college not to do it unless you are going into a needed field (and at this point only medical jobs are needed). Otherwise you'll have a degree and will be competiting with high school grads and even dropouts for the same jobs.

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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by jack0177057 View Post
    Some say that now is the perfect time for grad school. The economy is going to be in the toilet for the next few years. Since there are no good jobs available anywhere, why not spend the next 3 years sheltered from the storm in law school and emerge with a law degree, just in time when the corporations and law firms are beginning to hire lawyers again.

    You just have to be smart in anticipating where the jobs will be over the next decade. If the collapse of investment banking firms causes complex new banking and finance regulations, there will be many new legal jobs in both the private and public sector trying to sort all this out.

    Tax lawyers are still sorting through the 1986 overhaul of our federal income tax laws. An overhaul of banking laws and regulations should give lawyers plenty of work to do for the next decade or more.
    This would probably be true if there was ever a sustained market which paid reasonable salaries for graduates of non-elite law schools. This has really never been the case. The primary difference is the cost of legal education. The University of California schools will charge over $45,000 per year for in state tuition for law students next year. $56k for out of state. At that price, it would be virtually impossible to graduate without $200k in debt. What makes this worse is that law firms have changed their business model to severely limit partnership opportunities.

    Back when state schools were cheap, it didn't really matter if new lawyers spent the
    first five or ten years of their career making just better than minimum wage. They could still pay their small loans down and count on partnership as a light at the end of the tunnel. Now, you have to make decent bucks just to pay down the loans, and most firms just fire you when you've been around long enough to expect to become a partner.

    Basically, I disagree. Other than a brief bubble during the 2003-2007 time frame, there has never been a market for these lawyers. They're like pet rocks - only valuable for a brief window in time.

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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackstone View Post
    This would probably be true if there was ever a sustained market which paid reasonable salaries for graduates of non-elite law schools. This has really never been the case. The primary difference is the cost of legal education. The University of California schools will charge over $45,000 per year for in state tuition for law students next year. $56k for out of state. At that price, it would be virtually impossible to graduate without $200k in debt. What makes this worse is that law firms have changed their business model to severely limit partnership opportunities.

    Back when state schools were cheap, it didn't really matter if new lawyers spent the
    first five or ten years of their career making just better than minimum wage. They could still pay their small loans down and count on partnership as a light at the end of the tunnel. Now, you have to make decent bucks just to pay down the loans, and most firms just fire you when you've been around long enough to expect to become a partner.

    Basically, I disagree. Other than a brief bubble during the 2003-2007 time frame, there has never been a market for these lawyers. They're like pet rocks - only valuable for a brief window in time.
    I went to a very decent law school, but not Ivy League, and I can't complain. I make $150k in a very small Houston, Texas law firm, which is comparable to a salary of about $350k in NYC or LA. Yeah, times are tough and I'd hate to be looking for a legal job right now. But, again, I think any major overhaul of banking regulations and/or healthcare will give lawyers in those practice areas lots of work in the years to come. Someone has to sort through the tangled web of new rules and regulations and this won't happen overnight.

    I do agree about college and grad school tuition getting out of hand in the US. When I went to law school, I cut my costs in half just by moving from NYC to Texas. If I was looking at grad school today, I might consider going to Canada. (You cannot do this for law school, but you can probably do it for other grad programs.)
    Last edited by jack0177057; 11-18-2009 at 07:50 PM.

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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    I go to a decent law school (in top 100), but not one of the best. It's gonna be tough for me to get a job, but not impossible. At least where I live, its about networking and connections more than just having the name of an elite school.

    One thing that I do have going for me is that I do kick-ass interviews. A lot of attorneys can be super awkward, and luckily I'm pretty personable and present myself well.

    I think a lot of dancers also would have those same personable skills that would help them in interviews.

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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    If fewer people can pay for the top law schools now, when (or if) law firms begin looking again, they may find they have to hire from lower echelon schools.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    If fewer people can pay for the top law schools now, when (or if) law firms begin looking again, they may find they have to hire from lower echelon schools.
    They will simply import em, like every other industry.

    Meanwhile, schools will continue raising prices out of the range of American citizens taking on their own imports - foreign students (often tuition paid for by the government like China.)

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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    If fewer people can pay for the top law schools now, when (or if) law firms begin looking again, they may find they have to hire from lower echelon schools.
    Seriously, from what I've seen (at least in Dallas, TX and Houston, TX) -- you're better off going to an excellent (but not top-20) law school and getting top grades + law review, than you are going to a top-20 law school and just being average. The idea that top firms only hire ivy league graduates is a complete myth. There are plenty of graduates from top-100 law schools in the top law firms, but they graduated at the top of their class with law review experience.

    Also, smaller boutique firms can be nearly as well-paying as larger firms, and a lot more fun to work at.

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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by miabella View Post
    calculus is easy (and fun!). it is easier than linear algebra (matrix math is confusing to do by hand).
    I wish I found calculus easy. Right now all it does is make me cry. I think people need to learn math young for deeper understanding. I'll be 40 in a week, and trying to learn all this is really stressful.</threadjack>


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    They will simply import em, like every other industry.

    Meanwhile, schools will continue raising prices out of the range of American citizens taking on their own imports - foreign students (often tuition paid for by the government like China.)
    I don't think foreign lawyers is a really great idea. But government-funded foreign students have been in this country for over 50 years. It's an investment for that country and it's revenue for the colleges here. You'd think the countries would invest in colleges in their own country, hiring consultants from US (and other first world) colleges to help their startups.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    I don't think foreign lawyers is a really great idea. But government-funded foreign students have been in this country for over 50 years. It's an investment for that country and it's revenue for the colleges here. You'd think the countries would invest in colleges in their own country, hiring consultants from US (and other first world) colleges to help their startups.
    There are plenty of firms who think it is a good idea and already are doing it. This one refers to the UK, but I just wanted a quick reference to show it is happening already.



    Corporations Now Outsourcing M&A Work to India

    In a threat to big law firms, lawyers in India are carrying out the due diligence work for an upcoming corporate acquisition financed by the major UK bank. We all knew this day was coming and the book The World is Flat predicted it: legal services are being sent offshore just like telephone call services and being performed by cheap foreign labor.

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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    There are plenty of firms who think it is a good idea and already are doing it. This one refers to the UK, but I just wanted a quick reference to show it is happening already.
    This raises a complex issue regarding the unauthorized practice of law. Practicing law in any state in the US without a license (from the state bar of that state) is a crime, but what constitutes "practicing law"? Para-legal services can be performed by a non-lawyer. There are many services that are legal in nature, but do not constitute the "practice of law". Due-diligence work involves both.

    Also, if a corporation sends out legal work to attorneys in India, those attorneys are not practicing law in the U.S. and are not within the jurisdiction of the state courts. If they (the Indian lawyers) step foot in U.S. soil to do the work, however, they are subject to prosecution in the state for the unauthorized practice of law.

    The best way to make use of foreign lawyers here in the U.S. is to have them working under the control and supervision of U.S. lawyers. Basically, they would serve as paralegals and legal assistants. That's been going on for years. They don't displace attorneys, though, they displace American paralegals and legal assistants.

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    Default Re: PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    I wish I found calculus easy. Right now all it does is make me cry. I think people need to learn math young for deeper understanding.
    Calculus is very useful (and completely necessary) in several technologies. I found it fascinating, if not easy. It does take a lot of concentration to do the basics and remember the rules. That becomes harder as more things intrude on one's life. Sometimes there is a lot of algebra to get to the solutions. Variations: single variable, multiple variables, vector calculus, differential equations, partial differential equations.... I went thru all of it and used it all in my studies.

    The difference in many technical fields between the technicians and the professionals is in the calculus they can bring toward their understanding and eventually solutions.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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