Fu%$ You and your culture!

[Will]

In this day of feel good cultural sensitivity training, there are cultural differences that should be respected, even if not well understood by the other culture.

However, there's cultural differences and there's Universal Human Rights no ones culture overrides. This is a perfect example of the latter. We/the west are often accused of forcing our values and culture on others. This aint about cultural differences, it's about being a POS for human being, and that works across all cultures in my view.

If your culture/religion/old book you follow does not punish a man for throwing acid on a teen age girl because she wont marry you, your culture/religion is broke and your culture/religion needs to crawl out from the stone age rock from which it came.

Anyone tries to look me in the eye and justify this on cultural/religious grounds deserves some old school punishment. I'll respect your culture/religion when you respect yourself and those in your culture, and I don't care what country you come from or what religion you follow. What follows is hard to read, the pictures almost impossible to look at (you have been warned!) but look at them we must so those who tell us we should respect "cultural differences" realize no ones culture overrides Basic Human Rights:

Terrorism that's personal


Text by Jim Verhulst, Times' Perspective editor Associated Press

We typically think of terrorism as a political act.

But sometimes it’s very personal. It wasn’t a government or a guerrilla insurgency that threw acid on this woman’s face in Pakistan. It was a young man whom she had rejected for marriage. As the United States ponders what to do in Afghanistan — and for that matter, in Pakistan — it is wise to understand both the political and the personal, that the very ignorance and illiteracy and misogyny that create the climate for these acid attacks can and does bleed over into the political realm. Nicholas Kristof, the New York Times op-ed columnist who traveled to Pakistan last year to write about acid attacks, put it this way in an essay at the time: “I’ve been investigating such acid attacks, which are commonly used to terrorize and subjugate women and girls in a swath of Asia from Afghanistan through Cambodia (men are almost never attacked with acid). Because women usually don’t matter in this part of the world, their attackers are rarely prosecuted and acid sales are usually not controlled. It’s a kind of terrorism that becomes accepted as part of the background noise in the region. ...

Cont:

http://blogs.tampabay.com/photo/2009...-personal.html

[mediocrity]

I don't think it has to do with culture as much as extremism. I have many perfectly sweet Muslim friends- some not even Middle Eastern- so am cautious to denounce an entire culture.

However, on a personal level, I do agree with you. The woman in the first photograph is actually hauntingly beautiful. I can't imagine how beautiful she was before. The 16 yr old broke my heart- so young and having to live your entire life like that.

[Will]

I don't think it has to do with culture as much as extremism. I have many perfectly sweet Muslim friends- some not even Middle Eastern- so am cautious to denounce an entire culture.

I'm not denouncing the Muslim culture or religion: I am denouncing ANY culture or religion that allows such a thing to go totally unpunished and ignored. ANY culture or religion that will let that happen to their women, is broken, and the men of that culture or religion spineless and worthless for not defending them. There's a culture in a large number of countries that considers this perfectly OK behavior and does not punish those who commit these crimes against girls and women.

I don't respect that cultural difference and denounce it as crimes against humanity. No doubt, there are plenty of Muslims who would be outraged by this behavior also, but I don't see the moderate Muslim community stepping up and doing something about it either. My major point is, there are times when "respecting other cultures" is a cop out to ignoring the human rights abuses of others.

[Djoser]

God damn that was horrible. I thought cutting off the clitoris was bad enough, this is just evil.

[Vyanka]

I rather be shot to death than to go through that. I think if someone did that to me, i'd kill myself.

You can tell some of these girls were pretty before too. So terrible.

[threlayer]

You know, there are peoples' interpretations of Christianity or Shintoism that are just as ugly and reprehensible.

[Paris]

Things like that happen in North America, too. Just visit a women's shelter and you'll see some pretty horrible situations.

It is terrible that humans treat one another this way. But as they say, we've come a long way, baby! It does appear that there is always more work to be done. This is the human condition.

[KiwiStrawberry Splenda]

Islam has many cultures. Pakistan is one country, full of people with many religions, where this seems to happen often. Their law enforcement is obviously fucked. Clitoral mutilation occurs mostly in North African countries, very far from muslim Pakistan, and is not limited to islamic people who perform the ritual.

Just sayin...its a horrible situation and the photos were hearbreaking.

[AmberHoney]

As an "Arabic" person... I'd like to mention that only like, 10-15% of Muslims are Arabs. Most are Malaysian and Indonesian truthfully.

Also, all the crazy ridiculous Islamic crap that occurs has nothing to do with Islam, it has to do with a certain country and their culture. Pakistan is dominated by Hindu culture. So all that self torture, sacrifice, mutilation, and craziness that occurs in Pakistan, actually comes from Indian Hindus and polydiestic tribes.

Also, in the Arab world... the crazy shit comes from Shias. NOT Sunnis. Some people say Wahabbis and Salafis are Sunni - BUT THEY ARE NOT. They're a perversion of Islam. They started off meaning well... but they epically failed at it.

Throwing acid in someones face is done at least weekly here in the USA. It's not a cultural thing... some men have a hard time letting go and they just would rather disfigure and destroy to exert a permanent sense of control over someone.

Look at how many "normal" guys here in the USA see murder as a better alternative over divorce? There's womens shelters in Anytown, Yourstate with women who've been raped, mutilated, shot, stabbed, left with 3-4 children, etc.

Also please please please do not confuse Asian ways with Arab ways.

We're a different people entirely. Proximity on a map doesn't always equate similarities religiously, genetically, etc. Migration spread out and then snapped back... it didn't trickle out all at the same time.

Hope that makes sense.

[Earl_the_Pearl]

You know, there are peoples' interpretations of Christianity or Shintoism that are just as ugly and reprehensible.

That was not an interpretation that was cold hard truth. The people that did that make PLs look desirable.

Matthew 7:16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

[Earl_the_Pearl]

Throwing acid in someones face is done at least weekly here in the USA.

That may or may not be true but you can bet if it happens the tabloids would be all over it.

In New Jersey I shook my finger at my ex and did not see the inside of my house for 18 months.

[Djoser]

As an "Arabic" person... I'd like to mention that only like, 10-15% of Muslims are Arabs. Most are Malaysian and Indonesian truthfully.

Also, all the crazy ridiculous Islamic crap that occurs has nothing to do with Islam, it has to do with a certain country and their culture. Pakistan is dominated by Hindu culture. So all that self torture, sacrifice, mutilation, and craziness that occurs in Pakistan, actually comes from Indian Hindus and polydiestic tribes.

Also, in the Arab world... the crazy shit comes from Shias. NOT Sunnis. Some people say Wahabbis and Salafis are Sunni - BUT THEY ARE NOT. They're a perversion of Islam. They started off meaning well... but they epically failed at it.

Throwing acid in someones face is done at least weekly here in the USA. It's not a cultural thing... some men have a hard time letting go and they just would rather disfigure and destroy to exert a permanent sense of control over someone.

Thanks for this, you have valid points. But I don't think acid in faces happens that often in the USA. In fact I've never heard of it (though I'm sure it's happened somewhere), while I have heard several times of this practice being regarded as a legitimate recourse by men, in the region addressed by the article.

I do think large areas of the Eastern world have really shitty attitudes towards women, and that's putting it very mildly.

While I am not a defender of Christianity, and cannot forget the tens of thousands of people burned at the stake (about the only thing worse than acid in the face), the rights of women in the Western world are generally a lot more clearly protected these days, I think.

But as you say it's still a problem here. The violence towards women may not be so readily overlooked as elsewhere in the world, but it does happen.

[AmberHoney]

Thanks for this, you have valid points. But I don't think acid in faces happens that often in the USA. In fact I've never heard of it (though I'm sure it's happened somewhere), while I have heard several times of this practice being regarded as a legitimate recourse by men, in the region addressed by the article.

I do think large areas of the Eastern world have really shitty attitudes towards women, and that's putting it very mildly.

While I am not a defender of Christianity, and cannot forget the tens of thousands of people burned at the stake (about the only thing worse than acid in the face), the rights of women in the Western world are generally a lot more clearly protected these days, I think.

But as you say it's still a problem here. The violence towards women may not be so readily overlooked as elsewhere in the world, but it does happen.

Here in the USA there's at least 10 big cases a year that make it to Oprah where a woman has either been stabbed and cut in the face, burned, had acid thrown on her (sometimes its lye, home cleaning products or hair treatment products). So if it shows up on Oprah 10 times, that means that out of all the cases - a small percentage made such huge headlines that it goes national.

There's guys blasting their women with blow torches, giving them a buck 50 on their face etc.

It's occurs actually FAR less than you think in the Islamic world...

[please note that what I am about to say in the below paragraph is not to lessen the severity or horribleness of crimes against women - it's just to show the impact in society based upon region. I'm sure the mental/physical/emotional impact is severe no matter where one lives]

primarily because women cover up so much... "defacing" her is gonna do less damage (in societies eyes) than it would to do that to a woman in the west. Also, in the Islamic world... women can't really go anywhere without a chaperone from their family or their husband so blinding or handicapping her is gonna do less damage than doing that to an extremely independent woman in the west that doesn't have 5 relatives with her when she goes out anyways.

Most men will take a disfigured or abused or non virgin or even a former sex worker as a 3rd or 4th wife... because in Islam, you get a lot of blessings from God for doing that. And there is actually a special blessing in having an unattractive wife or husband and ignoring the temptations of others and then having sex with your spouse. So a disfigured woman actually still can be taken care of and a lot of men will still marry her. A pious man would see it as a chance to right the wrongs, get blessings, and provide her with love and affection and food/shelter/etc.

I wish people knew more about real Islam... because it actually puts women on the highest pedestal ever.

Like if you're married...your husband HAS to support you. No ifs ands or buts. He can't even ask you to get a job. He also can't ask you to do anything sinful at all. If a woman works because she wants to, she does not have to contribute one red cent to her household. She can keep the money herself and spend on what she wants to. And actually if she does help out with the household bills... its considered giving charity because she doesn't have to do it. Women with lots of kids or women who don't want to clean/cook etc... can request a domestic aide and their husband is supposed to give her that if he can afford it.

People slander the hell out of Islam, and it annoys me. I'm not a practising Muslim because I choose to enjoy the fruits of the world, but I'm a believer in the fundamental aspects of it.

One day I would like to live that kinda life... BUT... I'm not gonna commit until I know I'm ready cuz my sexual choices would most definitely get me in a ton of hot fire.

[AmberHoney]

Oh yeah... a lot of the disfiguring done in the USA is with guns and knives.

Obviously, people use what's convenient and easy to obtain depending on their locale. Here they use guns, in a lot of the Latin world they use knives, in Asia they use acids, etc.

So instead of saying acid thrown on them, I should have said at least one woman is horribly disfigured each week.

http://4survivors.blogspot.com/2009/...ing-women.html

[Djoser]

Thanks for posting that--I remember the story of the face transplant but forgot about the husband doing it. Can you believe the husband only got 7 years??!!

I wonder how severely the guys that threw the acid were punished in the OP's link.

[Will]

Thanks for posting that--I remember the story of the face transplant but forgot about the husband doing it. Can you believe the husband only got 7 years??!!

He should have gotten 100 years, but at least the POS got convicted.

I wonder how severely the guys that threw the acid were punished in the OP's link.

The comments above that it's "rare." From the article:

"Progressive Women’s Association (www.pwaisbd.org) to help such women “has documented 7,800 cases of women who were deliberately burned, scalded or subjected to acid attacks, just in the Islamabad area. In only 2 percent of those cases was anyone convicted.”

In the US and western world in general, men are convicted for such crimes... The exact % I can't tell you 'cause I have not looked it up, but it's a damn bit higher then 2% any one trying to compare the US to this is either nuts or needs to look into it further.

[Earl_the_Pearl]

Women in the US of A commit violence against men and that is covered up too. Tiger Woods' wife knocked him out with a golf club and Woods is hiding it.

[bigmarv]

Women in the US of A commit violence against men and that is covered up too. Tiger Woods' wife knocked him out with a golf club and Woods is hiding it.

I wonder if he is hiding it, because she scored a hole in one swing.

[AmberHoney]

He should have gotten 100 years, but at least the POS got convicted.



The comments above that it's "rare." From the article:

"Progressive Women’s Association (www.pwaisbd.org) to help such women “has documented 7,800 cases of women who were deliberately burned, scalded or subjected to acid attacks, just in the Islamabad area. In only 2 percent of those cases was anyone convicted.”

In the US and western world in general, men are convicted for such crimes... The exact % I can't tell you 'cause I have not looked it up, but it's a damn bit higher then 2% any one trying to compare the US to this is either nuts or needs to look into it further.

First off Will... I'm the ONLY person who mentioned anything like that (comparing it to the US). So instead of pollyhopping over it, just call me nuts/ignorant and own your opinion like a man. Don't hide behind the "Anyone or whoever" facade. If you wanna call names, or call me out... do it. Generalized statements don't work when there's no generality.

You only get the right to be passive aggressive if you menstruate.

ALSO Using Pakistan and Afghanistan to show the amount of fanaticism and violence... that's like going to inner city Newark, NJ in the 80's to get your worldwide crack usage statistics.

Meaning... if that's all you're looking for, that's all you're gonna find.


Oh and to the people talking about how men get abused... yes they do. And often it's because of insecurities and fear on the part of their partner.

It's sad but unless someone is attacked by a mentally ill or intoxicated person in a random act of violence... MOST people do actively contribute to their own deaths when they die violently. It can be through risk taking behavior, through initiating aggression with a competitor they can't beat, etc.

If I was a man who raised a kid I thought was mine only to have the real father show up at my door with a DNA test... I can't tell you with 100% certainty that I wouldn't turn around and punch the shit out of the woman who lied to me.

Also, if I was Elin Neederg....whatever...garlin...I dunno the girls name and on Thanksgiving night I was at home with 2 kids and got into an argument with Tiger over his mistress... I can't tell you that I wouldn't lose it and slap him and leave a couple scratches on his face.

In the heat of the moment, we don't know what we're gonna do. We can be all politically correct and say that "no one ever deserves to get hit" but we find good reasons to hit our children every day. Like "oh I don't hit my kids but I just snatch them up real hard so their shoulder pops in and out of socket and then slam them down butt first onto the floor... but that's okay cuz she was going for the stove and I don't want her to get burned". It's justification for actions based in fear and/or frustration.

And all abuse/assault between OTHERWISE normal people occur in moments of extreme fear and/or frustration.

Something like 3 or 4 or of 5 people in relationships have dealt with an assault at the hands of their partners... that is NOT a small percentage. I think most people truly in their hearts believe that they would never hit anyone... UNLESS. And that UNLESS happens more than we as a society would like to admit.

I just wonder why people think that they can just be morally corrupt and expect no consequences.

I used to be kinda in that fog and haze myself. I used to lie to myself and say that the things I did were okay and that anyone who had a problem with it should just suck it up. BUT I grew up and realized that due to my personal choice...there could be negative consequences and really, I know it's not "right" but it is "balanced".

I'm rambling...cuz I'm tired. But yeah. That's that.

[Earl_the_Pearl]

Something like 3 or 4 or of 5 people in relationships have dealt with an assault at the hands of their partners... that is NOT a small percentage. I think most people truly in their hearts believe that they would never hit anyone... UNLESS. And that UNLESS happens more than we as a society would like to admit.

Perhaps in your social circle but certainly not in mine. I think you are proving the OPs case.

[Will]

I'm rambling...cuz I'm tired. But yeah. That's that.

If your comment in this thread are at all representative of the culture in question, then it's even worse then I thought if you are a "moderate" voice of the culture. That the comments come from a women, blows my mind.

[threlayer]

...I wish people knew more about real Islam... because it actually puts women on the highest pedestal ever....

Females are treated very differently than we in Western Culture are used to. Pedestals aside. (And that behavior in your explanation serves to isolate the women from other men in that society.) They have different rights and responsibilities than men, as expected in a strongly partriarchal society with its roots firmly planted in the Middle East cultural view in the year 630AD. There is a general disdain for women as being productive members of society, except in the sense of producing a family and a home for the male and his male children, though in that arena they are superior. In many of those cultures their genealogy does not even track the female side. But all in all, I believe the difference origins are based on a paranoic fear of women, in an anthropological sense, infiltrating their man's gene pool.

[firemaiden04]

Regardless of the terrible things mentioned in this article, I'd prefer if people stopped generalizing about entire cultures and religions. Just because there are some extremists in Pakistan who are Muslim and use it to justify these kind of heinous acts doesn't mean that it's Islam that made them do it. That's like saying all the men in America who beat their women did it because they're Christian.

[Will]

Regardless of the terrible things mentioned in this article, I'd prefer if people stopped generalizing about entire cultures and religions. Just because there are some extremists in Pakistan who are Muslim and use it to justify these kind of heinous acts doesn't mean that it's Islam that made them do it. That's like saying all the men in America who beat their women did it because they're Christian.

Your comments are exactly what I mean by politically correct BS. Instead of critically reading the article, you accuse some here or "generalizing" about cultures or religions. For example:

“I’ve been investigating such acid attacks, which are commonly used to terrorize and subjugate women and girls in a swath of Asia from Afghanistan through Cambodia"

Ergo, it's neither isolated nor rare and it is an accepted part of the culture in some circles, and not small isolated circles either.
And

"Because women usually don’t matter in this part of the world, their attackers are rarely prosecuted and acid sales are usually not controlled."

And

" It’s a kind of terrorism that becomes accepted as part of the background noise in the region. ..."

And

"Acid attacks and wife burnings are common in parts of Asia because the victims are the most voiceless in these societies: They are poor and female."

Read the article closely, read linked associated articles, see my comments. I don't care what culture or religion you come from, treatment of women by men in this manner makes you a POS and your culture worthless.

How about less cultural sensitivity and more outrage??!!

[AmberHoney]

Perhaps in your social circle but certainly not in mine. I think you are proving the OPs case.

What's my social circle?

I know a few people from this board in real life but... unless you changed your username I am not familiar with you.

My social circle for the last 4 years pretty much consists of... white and hispanic people that I got close with working on group projects with in school.

And before that... due to the area I lived in it was primarily whte and african american lawyers, law professors, professors in general cuz my dad was one...

So 5 or 6 people that I call true friends... and 20-30 associates I have that I consider my social circle are mostly professional degree holders between the age of 28-50 who don't know anything about Islam other than what they see on TV.

So.... help me to understand what you're saying.

I'm "Arabic" but I don't practice Islam, wasn't raised practicing Islam, my parents aren't Muslim...etc. I learned about Islam on my own, and several of my distant cousins converted to it.

My people spent the last 400 years trying to be French, adopting Catholocism, the French language, customs, culture, etc.

So... show me what you're getting at.