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Thread: can someone with a legal background explain to me

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    Default Re: can someone with a legal background explain to me

    this is drifting in a different direction, but worth commenting on ...

    That's when I realized that pretty much every dancer has a sound potential lawsuit against any club where she has worked, because to an unbiased eye, there are 50-11 illegal things going on in the club at any one point.
    Absolutely no argument over this point ! Based on a huge body of precedent in both civil courts and DOL rulings, a dancer bringing a lawsuit against her club has a better than average chance of winning that lawsuit. However, there is such a thing as a 'Phyrric Victory'. In this case ...

    - for the dancer(s) bringing the lawsuit, there will definitely be a cost / benefit equation involved. From an immediate impact standpoint, if the dancer(s) are able to pony up the legal fees to bring a lawsuit they will be awarded something. However, actually collecting that something is another story. And actually having anything left over after legal fees are paid is another question.

    - for the dancer(s) bringing the lawsuit, there will be non-immediate repurcussions. Club owners ( and their attorneys ) do talk to each other, meaning that dancer(s) whose names appear in club lawsuits are highly likely to be de-facto 'blacklisted' by other clubowners in the same city / area. And where the club involved in the lawsuit is a 'chain' club, the de-facto 'blacklisting' will have a much wider reach ! This is fine if the dancer(s) bringing the lawsuit are ready to retire, but not so fine if they intend to keep working.

    - there are also repurcussions going forward for other dancers at the club which was sued. These could run the gamut from full-on 'employee' treatment, to increased stage fees / a higher percentage 'cut' being taken by the club, to increased scrutiny by local cops / state tax authority / IRS - all of which could have a negative impact on the earnings potential for other dancers.

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    Default Re: can someone with a legal background explain to me

    Quote Originally Posted by camille27 View Post
    this is not about "appearance-based" standards. this is about club management saying via email "we have too many latinas working here to hire you" or "no, but do you have any white dancer friends who might want to work here"

    not an appearance issue. this is a how/why are strip clubs not-adhering to civil rights hiring standards without getting sued every other day?
    Possibly up to now they had employees smart enough to not put things such as that in an e-mail.

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    Default Re: can someone with a legal background explain to me

    ^^^ yeah, no s#!t !

    Even so, if the business relationship is independent contractor dancers, the club can still make the case that 'appearance' criteria trumps issues of age, race etc. even though these are 'protected' classes. But if the business relationship is employer and employee dancers, the club just opened themselves up to a huge racial discrimination lawsuit.

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    Default Re: can someone with a legal background explain to me

    Quote Originally Posted by jack0177057 View Post
    Obese Porn Stars Sue Adult Entertainment Convention for Discrimination -
    http://www.breitbart.tv/obese-porn-s...iscrimination/
    That one is mine.... It eventually settled to the mutual satisfaction of all the parties.

    The advice given so far has been correct so I really cant add anything, but this also comes up in the pornography industry in regards to black performers getting paid a lower rate compared to their white counter-parts for the same work performed.

    I would have to recommend the EEOC route as well.

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    Default Re: can someone with a legal background explain to me

    ^ While I am not personally a fan of obese porn actresses, I think kicking them out of an adult entertainment convention was plain wrong and morally outrageous. I'm glad you guys sued and received some compensation. Kudos.
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    Default Re: can someone with a legal background explain to me

    I'd suggest telling your customers about clubs that have discriminated against you. I don't think I'm the only one who wouldn't want to patronize a club that discriminates.

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    Default Re: can someone with a legal background explain to me

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Hyde View Post
    In the same way that sports teams can get away with it. They're not "getting away" with anything, they're hiring the best qualified people that will help their business.
    Well said.

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    Default Re: can someone with a legal background explain to me

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser View Post
    I'm going with Mel and WiseGuy on this one. This is an appearance based industry. I would never again work in a club that had to hire every woman that walked in the door. I tried that once, and it sucked (they didn't have to, they wanted to--but the place had a horrible reputation for having ugly dancers).
    I would think the smart thing would be for the club to allow just about anyone to work for a trial period. If she sells dances and follows the rules, let her stay. There are many many good looking women who can't cut it as dancers, for one reason or another, there's a lot more to it than appearance.

    Probably clubs owners would love to cater to everyone, male dancers for women and gay men, BBW, mature. But the narrow-mindedness of the typical customer makes that difficult.

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    Default Re: can someone with a legal background explain to me

    ^ Any woman can be beautiful and sexy in her own way... But, when I go to the SC, I am looking for a girl that is stunningly beautiful.

    I want to be awed when I step inside the SC. If I am not awed by the beauty of the girls, it is a waste of my time. I can meet "normal" girls in any bar or club and I've even talked them into giving me free lap dances (now a days, every girl wants to prove that she could be a stripper, if she wanted to). So, I should only be spending money on a lap dance if the dancer is sublimely beautiful.

    If I walk into a SC and the dancers are just average looking, I won't come back. This is a big disappointment. I will turn down nearly every dancer, and I'll finally pick one that I am not attracted to, just to get 1 or 2 dances and go home.

    On the other hand, the SCs wilth the gorgeous and glamorous girls never disappoints. I look forward to walking into the club and feasting my eyes on the hottest women that this city has to offer. I'll buy 6 dances and relish every second of it.

    If any girl is offended by this - I'll just turn the tables on her and ask her - How hot would a guy have to be for you to pay him to dance and strip?
    Women are meant to be loved, not to be understood.
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    Default Re: can someone with a legal background explain to me

    ^ So you are going to get a dance from at most 6 dancers? In an average to large club there will be more dancers working than that. You can't even stand to SEE a dancer you wouldn't want a dance from? In the clubs I go to, if you want dances from the most popular dancers, you will be at the bottom of their list to cater to if you only buy one dance at a time. So you'd really only need 2-3 dancers that you like if you want to have a good chance of being offered a dance.

    I go to clubs with contact, so maybe that's why I think there's more to it than appearance. Most healthy women 35 and under are good-looking, so I don't see how looks could ever be such a big issue. The great lap dancers are the ones who, if you make sure your touch is a comfortable one, will feel like they're getting paided to get a massage, and will have a great attitude. Some dancers are surprisingly affectionate, given how tough they have to be to make it in this industry.

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    Default Re: can someone with a legal background explain to me

    Quote Originally Posted by camille27 View Post
    how modeling agencies, strip clubs, etc get away with race/size discrimination?
    If you feel you're a "victim" of this, they're actually probably doing you a favor. If they can't make money off whatever it is you have to offer, you probably can't either. You're offering a commodity or a service. If there is little or no demand for it, that's not exactly the club or agency's fault.
    "never trust a big butt and a smile"-- Bell Biv DeVoe

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    Default Re: can someone with a legal background explain to me

    Quote Originally Posted by ilbbaicnl View Post
    ^ So you are going to get a dance from at most 6 dancers?
    No, I pick the most attractive dancer (of the pool of super attractive dancers) and I buy all my dances from her.

    Quote Originally Posted by ilbbaicnl View Post
    You can't even stand to SEE a dancer you wouldn't want a dance from?
    Again, I want the experience of walking in and being awed by the beauty. If most of the girls are just okay-looking, I am not awed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ilbbaicnl View Post
    I go to clubs with contact, so maybe that's why I think there's more to it than appearance.
    The clubs I go to are high contact and extras galore. I agree that outside the club, there is more to a woman than just appearances. I love intelligent, confident, sophisticated women with a quick and challenging wit, and they don't have to be perfect 10s. But, in the SC, I'm not paying a girl to tutor me on world affairs... I want to see, smell and touch women of exquisite beauty. I prefer that they be smart, but I'm not grading them on IQ. The only time I've been turned off by lack of intelligence was by a girl who talked and acted like a 10-year-old. I think it was just an act, and probably a big turn on to perverts, but it totally turned me off.
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    Default Re: can someone with a legal background explain to me

    At least in the porn biznez sometimes its about connections and sometimes its about discrimination. Many agents will not rep non-whites because they simply cannot get them work (legitimate business decision), others do based because of discriminatory practices.

    There's a well known agency that does not like their clients to do IR porn.

    Its sometimes difficult to be able to legally prove discrimination. Its not what you know/feel/think in a court of law, its what can you prove. And thats not an easy standard to hit.

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    Default Re: can someone with a legal background explain to me

    Quote Originally Posted by camille27 View Post
    to say their is little to no demand for non-white women or for women of different sizes in the sex industry, the entertainment industry, modeling, etc is a ridiculous statement.

    many non-white women are victims of race quotas and discrimination within the industry.

    why am i bothering to respond to this stormfront-esque post?
    I spoke in very general terms about the rules of any business, not strictly strip clubs or agencies or non-white or less-than-fit girls. You offer what you can sell for a profit. If the demand isn't there for the product, you won't see the shelves filled with it. If sufficient demand was there for lots of overweight minority chicks, the clubs would be full of them. The owners would be making a bad business decision not to hire them if they brought guys in and emptied their wallets.

    And just for the record, before you consider playing the race card any further, the prototypical dancer seems to be a statuesque blond and I don't think I've ever bought a dance from one. Of the hundreds of dances I did a few years ago, virtually every one of them was with non-white girls, most of whom I admit were fit.

    And also for the record, race quotas don't victimize non-whites. Quotas set a minimum level of something that needs to be met.
    Last edited by bem401; 09-10-2010 at 06:48 AM.
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    Default Re: can someone with a legal background explain to me

    I'll admit that I used to go almost exclusively for the white & blond bombshell dancer type, but once I tried a beautiful black dancer, it opened up a new world to me. She was so nice and sweet -- the first black girl I ever kissed. (Lips only, not open mouth.) I'm into black dancers now, but my standards for beauty are very high, regardless of race.
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    Default Re: can someone with a legal background explain to me

    the fact that you somehow managed to combine the two examples i gave into one as if they go hand in hand says A LOT about you. again, i'm not going to argue with someone who belongs on stormfront. have a blessed 2010.

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    If sufficient demand was there for lots of overweight minority chicks, the clubs would be full of them.

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    Default Re: can someone with a legal background explain to me

    I would think the smart thing would be for the club to allow just about anyone to work for a trial period. If she sells dances and follows the rules, let her stay. There are many many good looking women who can't cut it as dancers, for one reason or another, there's a lot more to it than appearance.
    Actually, one strip club business model does this 'automatically'. That business model is used in very upscale clubs and involves the club charging the dancers $200+ per shift in house fee but low / zero percentages of club 'cut' on private dances etc. The club can then safely allow any dancer who would not constitute an embarrassment to the club's image the opportunity to dance ... AFTER they pony up their $200+ in advance of the shift. If they are effective as dancers, they will earn much more than the $200+ stage fee ( plus another $50+ in mandatory tipouts ) and return to work the next night. If they are NOT effective as dancers, they will be unable to earn enough money to 'break even' and quickly move on.

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    Default Re: can someone with a legal background explain to me

    Quote Originally Posted by jack0177057 View Post
    No, I pick the most attractive dancer (of the pool of super attractive dancers) and I buy all my dances from her. ... Again, I want the experience of walking in and being awed by the beauty. If most of the girls are just okay-looking, I am not awed.
    Have you thought about that from an ethical point of view? You are going to pay one person for her service to you, but you expect the service of being "awed" for free from the others it seems. In practical terms, I doubt it really matters, I'm betting you'll buy your 6 dances from the dancer you like even if you're disappointed in the others. But I think, in all facets of life, it helps to remember that it's not realistic to expect people to do something for you unless you do something for them. Wouldn't you feel disrespected if a somebody expected something for nothing from you? Maybe few or no dancers give a rat's ass if customers feel respect for them. But, just in case they do, it doesn't really cost anything to give them that.

    I think maybe you're assuming that the vast majority of guys like what you like in a woman, and it's just a very few wierdos who want something very different. It's possible but I doubt it. If too many dancers are competing for too few customers, none of them will make decent money and they will quit.

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    Default Re: can someone with a legal background explain to me

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Actually, one strip club business model does this 'automatically'. That business model is used in very upscale clubs and involves the club charging the dancers $200+ per shift in house fee but low / zero percentages of club 'cut' on private dances etc. The club can then safely allow any dancer who would not constitute an embarrassment to the club's image the opportunity to dance ... AFTER they pony up their $200+ in advance of the shift. If they are effective as dancers, they will earn much more than the $200+ stage fee ( plus another $50+ in mandatory tipouts ) and return to work the next night. If they are NOT effective as dancers, they will be unable to earn enough money to 'break even' and quickly move on.
    I basically agree with that, but it seems a little mean to make a girl pay $200 to find out she can't cut it as a dancer. I think the club could ask for the $200 and the end of the shift, and tell the girl not to come back if she didn't have it. For a few women, dancing has allowed them to run away from a dangerous situation (e.g. violent SO), it makes it harder if they have to pony up a lot of money when they start. I definitely agree that the flat house fee and no per-dance fee approach makes the best sense, it seems to be the norm in Toronto.

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    Default Re: can someone with a legal background explain to me

    Quote Originally Posted by jack0177057 View Post
    I'll admit that I used to go almost exclusively for the white & blond bombshell dancer type, but once I tried a beautiful black dancer, it opened up a new world to me. She was so nice and sweet -- the first black girl I ever kissed. (Lips only, not open mouth.) I'm into black dancers now, but my standards for beauty are very high, regardless of race.
    That just goes to show you it makes sense to push your boundaries in intelligent was. Biologically it makes sense that men are attracted to healthy women with strong secondary sex characteristics. Biologically it makes no sense for men to be attracted to just blonde, blue or green eyed, weak, white women. It's just brainwashing, let one hot black dancer rock your world and you will be cured of that.

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    Default Re: can someone with a legal background explain to me

    Quote Originally Posted by camille27 View Post
    the fact that you somehow managed to combine the two examples i gave into one as if they go hand in hand says A LOT about you. again, i'm not going to argue with someone who belongs on stormfront. have a blessed 2010.
    Put an "or" between them then. Big deal, the reasoning doesn't change. Take a look at the NBA. There aren't a lot of white guys, short guys, or short white guys. Does that mean they're a victim of some sort and have a right to complain? No, and I'm one of them, white and short (at least by NBA standards). I don't have what they're looking for and I can accept that. Bosses (for the most part) hire the people who can get things done for them, end of story. Its not personal or exhibiting a bias.
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    Default Re: can someone with a legal background explain to me

    Nice Information.

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