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Thread: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April but loses them again in May !!!

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    Quote Originally Posted by hockeybobby View Post
    When the "government" pays for a good or service, it's actually individual taxpayers that are paying....no differently than if they were paying someone to build a fence, or clean their house. The people the government pay (on behalf of the taxpayer), are doing work for the taxpayer...whether you personally value that work or not. The government works for the people (as a general contractor of sorts), providing the vital service of running the country....without which, there is no country.
    You are forgetting a number of substantial differences between the two. Namely the elements of CHOICE and COMPETITION which lead to cost effectiveness and efficiency. In the private sector you CHOOSE who to hire to paint your fence or clean your house with COST usually being a prime factor. Not with the public sector. I don't know about Canada, but in the U.S. and Europe, public sector workers are, on average, paid far more in salaries and benefits than private sector workers doing the same or comparable work. Sometimes twice as much. Amtrak and The Postal Service have no competition and both deliver lousy service at high cost. Public schools have no competition and generally do a poor job at high cost. Compare them to Catholic schools which do a far better job at a much lower cost.

    And NO; I am NOT advocating that we privatize everything. Things like Defense are mercenary enough without having more Blackwater fiascos.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 05-11-2010 at 11:07 AM.

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    That's a different argument though Eric. But tell you what, I'll stipulate that a certain percentage of government spending is lost to waste/inefficiency/lack of competition, if you'll stipulate that that amount is roughly equal to the amount that makes up the profit in private business. Government provides services on a net non-profit basis.

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    Quote Originally Posted by hockeybobby View Post
    That's a different argument though Eric. But tell you what, I'll stipulate that a certain percentage of government spending is lost to waste/inefficiency/lack of competition, if you'll stipulate that that amount is roughly equal to the amount that makes up the profit in private business. Government provides services on a net non-profit basis.
    Au contraire mon ami. ( Going bilingual in salute to Canadian national policy lol.)

    The Keynsians say that government spending is just as beneficial economically as the private sector variety. Right ?

    YOU are the one who posted that government buying a good or service is the same as the private sector doing so. I'm arguing that they are NOT the same . Leaving out the philosophical arguments about whether government ought to do some of things it does, the fact is that government spending has to be paid for. One way or the other. Somebody has to be TAXED to pay for it. Somebody's money has to be taken from them to pay the government's bills. My pocket doesn't get picked to pay for painting your fence or to clean your house. It does get picked to pay for Obama's fence and housecleaning. Both literally and metaphorically. That money taken from me cannot be spent by me.

    If the government spending is done with borrowed funds, it's even worse. Interest has to be paid to the lenders and eventually the principal has to be paid back.

    The other reason the two sectors spend differently is as I pointed out. The private sector is much more efficient. Well it used to be before the Feds started bailing out inefficiency and incompetence. But generally speaking, in a free market success survives and failure dies. One of many reasons why I opposed ALL the Federal bailouts and why I think Merkel was an idiot to listen to Obama and go big on the EU. bailout.

    Please show me where the private sector punishes success and rewards failure ? I can cite you dozens of examples where the government does so.

    Most importantly ( and getting back to the original point of this particular thread ) private sector workers are NOT paid with tax funds to provide private sector goods and services . As Melonie has pointed out: A Postal Worker gets paid with tax dollars and then is taxed on same as opposed to a UPS or Fed Ex worker. The pay and benefit scale of private sector workers is lower and they work harder and longer than their public sector counterparts. When the government decides what to spend on what and where, it does NOT do so based on anything remotely resembling a rational economic calculus. Political considerations, including kowtowing to various unions, trump any considerations of true economic benefit. Preserving jobs in the local shipyard or defense plant trump rational national defense requirements.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 05-12-2010 at 06:03 AM.

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    the fact is that government spending has to be paid for. One way or the other. Somebody has to be TAXED to pay for it. Somebody's money has to be taken from them to pay the government's bills. My pocket doesn't get picked to pay for painting your fence or clean your house. It does get picked to pay for Obama's fence and housecleaning. Both literally and metaphorically. That money taken from me cannot be spent by me.
    hence the difference i.e. the money being spent by public sector employees is actually money originally earned by private sector employees ... but money that could not be spent by private sector employees who were heavily taxed to pay for the public sector employee's paycheck in the first place. This is wealth TRANSFER not wealth creation.

    If the government spending is done with borrowed funds, it's even worse. Interest has to be paid to the lenders and eventually the principal has to be paid back.
    Indeed ! Current projections indicate that within a very few years 10% of all US tax revenues will have to be redirected towards paying off the gov't bonds now being sold at a record pace to allow today's massive gov't deficit spending. This is essentially the situation which just pushed Greece over the precipice. However, for some reason, I doubt that the US will be able to muster a coalition of other countries who are willing to finance an American bailout a few years from now ! But hey such a bailout would result in an astronomically high GDP calculation based on the 'classic' formula.

    This of course brings us to the other 'mistaken assumption' implicit in the 'classic' GDP formula - it attempts to equate increased debt with increased productivity.

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    The public servant provides a service for the taxpayer, paid by the taxpayer. The private sector worker does the same thing, and is paid by the same taxpayer. It's the same damn thing, your semantics notwithstanding.

    Think of the government as a general contractor working on behalf of the taxpayer, providing the service of running the country. Compare that to a general contractor building a house for a taxpayer. They are the same thing. The private sector contractor pays his subcontractors as little as possible and pockets the difference in profit. The government pays it's people a little better...you call that waste. Whatever. The same people pay in both cases, and to say one is bad/a drain, and the other isn't is ridiculous.

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    You are forgetting a number of substantial differences between the two. Namely the elements of CHOICE and COMPETITION which lead to cost effectiveness and efficiency. In the private sector you CHOOSE who to hire to paint your fence or clean your house with COST usually being a prime factor. Not with the public sector. I don't know about Canada, but in the U.S. and Europe, public sector workers are, on average, paid far more in salaries and benefits than private sector workers doing the same or comparable work. Sometimes twice as much. Amtrak and The Postal Service have no competition and both deliver lousy service at high cost. Public schools have no competition and generally do a poor job at high cost. Compare them to Catholic schools which do a far better job at a much lower cost.

    And NO; I am NOT advocating that we privatize everything. Things like Defense are mercenary enough without having more Blackwater fiascos.
    There is CHOICE and COMPETITION for government work too. Contractors bid on contracts. In most fields public sector employees are paid less than private sector employees. I've applied for both government jobs, and private sector jobs in the past, and the private sector pays better.

    The postal service does have competition and delivers its service far more cheaply. It cost a lot less to send a letter through the US postal service than it does through Federal Express. Amtrak must share its tracks with private freight trains. In Europe and Japan, government run trains probably provide better and more efficient service than anything in the US, public or private.

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    hence the difference i.e. the money being spent by public sector employees is actually money originally earned by private sector employees ... but money that could not be spent by private sector employees who were heavily taxed to pay for the public sector employee's paycheck in the first place. This is wealth TRANSFER not wealth creation.
    No, it's wealth creation. Paying taxes is exactly the same as buying goods and services in the private sector. When you pay taxes, you're buying goods and services from the government, whether the money goes for a fire engine, or to pay a policeman for providing security. When you pay money, you're getting something in return, just like the private sector. Paying taxes can potentially create more wealth than spending money in the private sector, since tax dollars are much more likely to be spent in this country than spending in the private sector, since so many products bought in the private sector are made in foreign countries. Spending a million tax dollars to build a bridge in the US creates more wealth in this country than spending a million dollars in the private sector to purchase a thousand flat screen televisions made in China.



    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Indeed ! Current projections indicate that within a very few years 10% of all US tax revenues will have to be redirected towards paying off the gov't bonds now being sold at a record pace to allow today's massive gov't deficit spending. This is essentially the situation which just pushed Greece over the precipice. However, for some reason, I doubt that the US will be able to muster a coalition of other countries who are willing to finance an American bailout a few years from now ! But hey such a bailout would result in an astronomically high GDP calculation based on the 'classic' formula.

    This of course brings us to the other 'mistaken assumption' implicit in the 'classic' GDP formula - it attempts to equate increased debt with increased productivity.
    Increased debt is increased productivity. When someone borrows $20,000 to purchase an automobile, you don't think that's increasing productivity?

    There never was a problem with the national debt until we started putting conservative presidents in the White House. Ronald Reagan is the one who made running up debt a standard policy.

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    well, it appears that just like in mainstream financial circles, the Keynesians and the Austrians will never agree. But in the end, one school will be proven right and the other proven wrong.

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    ^^^^ We have already been proven right. If the Keynsians ( including Bobby and Eagle ) were correct, then Obama's stimulus program would have resulted in (at least ! ) typical post-recession economic growth i.e. 7 to 8 % per annum. Instead it is wheezing along at 4 % , at best.

    Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal and Ireland have followed the Keynesian socialist model to a "T" and all are going into the crapper . Without EU guarantees (" Le TARP" ) their debt would be far below investment grade. Japan's lost decade resulted despite trillions in government stimulus.

    Canada, has one of the world's soundest economies, currencies and banking systems. Where is their stimulus spending ? What is their debt to GDP ratio ? How much private debt are they guaranteeing ?

    Why is gold skyrocketing ( I am Sooooo glad I bought more almost a year ago. Thanks Melonie. ) ?
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 05-12-2010 at 11:09 AM.

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    There is CHOICE and COMPETITION for government work too. Contractors bid on contracts. In most fields public sector employees are paid less than private sector employees. I've applied for both government jobs, and private sector jobs in the past, and the private sector pays better.

    The postal service does have competition and delivers its service far more cheaply. It cost a lot less to send a letter through the US postal service than it does through Federal Express. Amtrak must share its tracks with private freight trains. In Europe and Japan, government run trains probably provide better and more efficient service than anything in the US, public or private.
    ROTFLMAO ! Twer it only true. In one of my past lives, I did a lot of work with contractors on Federal, state and municipal contracts. You've obviously never heard of "extras"; "weather days" and "change orders" . None of which are ever included in the original bid. Many of which are known about BEFORE the bids are made and are counted on by the contractors. Rarely are there penalties for delays or bonuses for finishing early. In New York, highway work contracts do not ever have delay penalties. That's one reason why projectts are always late and over budget. There's also the Wick's law and Federal prevailing union wage guidelines.

    In a few states the private sector pays better. It used to be that the Feds paid less in exchange for better benefits and job security. Over the past decade or so, the Feds and most states pay higher salaries AND have better benefits. Only 20% of private sector workers get fixed pensions. Most get 401K's. Almost all public sector workers get guaranteed pensions that they can often collect after as little as 20 years service. Why do you think Orange County went broke ? Why L.A. is on the verge of bankruptcy ? Why California, Illinois and N.Y. are on the brink of default ? P E N S I O N S and health care costs. Most public workers do not pay anything for their own health care. Many private sector workers pay half the cost of their health insurance.

    Europe and Japan have invested billions more in their passenger railroads than we have and many are run AT A LOSS . The Postal Service has NO COMPETITION for daily mail service.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 05-13-2010 at 06:37 AM.

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    well, trying to circle back onto the original topic ...

    If you are of the opinion that the US gov't printing up and selling new US treasury bonds in order to pay for the salaries of the 66,000 new US Census workers included in this month's unemployment statistics ... knowing that these 66,000 new public sector workers are going to lose their jobs in July or August but also knowing that US taxpayers will have to continue paying principal and interest obligations on those new US treasury bonds for many years to come ... then you are a true Keynesian !!!

    Also, this little tidbit was just released that is due in part to hiring those 66,000 new public sector workers this month ...

    (snip)" May 12 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. posted its largest April budget deficit on record as receipts declined in a month that typically sees an increase in individual income tax payments.

    The excess of spending over revenue rose to $82.7 billion last month compared with a $20.9 billion gap in April 2009, the Treasury Department said today in Washington. It was the second April deficit since 1983 and exceeded the median forecast in a Bloomberg News survey.

    April marked a record 19th straight monthly shortfall, highlighting the challenges facing the Obama administration. Deterioration in the government’s balance sheet in coming years raises the risk of higher interest rates even as an improving economy helps lift tax receipts."(snip)

    (snip)"Revenue and other income fell 7.9 percent to $245.3 billion in April from $266.2 billion the same month last year, the Treasury said.

    Corporate tax receipts totaled $77.1 billion for the year to date, an increase of 8.9 percent. Individual income tax collections were down 11.6 percent so far this fiscal year to $500.8 billion.

    Spending for the entire government for April jumped 14.2 percent from the same month a year earlier to $328 billion."(snip)

    (snip)"The Obama administration forecasts a $1.6 trillion budget deficit in the current fiscal year that began Oct. 1. President Barack Obama’s debt commission met April 27, the first of a series of meetings aimed at producing a plan to reduce the deficit.

    Administration officials and Democrats in Congress are looking to the commission for recommendations on reducing the federal debt, which is currently projected to reach 90 percent of the economy by 2020. Interest payments are forecast to quadruple to more than $900 billion annually by that year. "(snip)

    from


    In case people haven't been following federal budgets, that $900 billion in future year bond interest costs mentioned in the news blurb amounts to more than 25% of this year's total federal budget. And that's just the interest payments, not counting repayment of principal on gov't bonds outstanding. If this keeps up, between interest and principal, 1 out of every 2 future year tax dollars will wind up having to be spent on gov't bond service ... gov't bonds which were issued to fund the paychecks of additional gov't workers, many of whom will no longer have those jobs ( but the taxpayer principal and interest payments to cover the bond money used to pay their salaries will live on ) !!!

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-12-2010 at 01:44 PM.

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    I asked you a legitimate question which you did not bother answering.
    I did answer your question, look at the scales on the left and right sides of the chart. You are the only one who does not understand it. Not only do you not understand the significance of the smaller numbers on the right, but you don't understand the definition of GDP. Go buy a simple economics textbook, read up a little and then come back with an intelligent question.

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Huh ? Would you please explain that ?

    The fact is that increases in GOVERNMENT employment are a drag on GDP. Government workers do NOT produce goods and services. They CONSUME. Money spent on them cannot be spent on other things.
    No, all government workers produce goods and services, in the US, its mostly services.

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    ROTFLMAO ! Twer it only true. In one of my past lives, I did a lot of work with contractors on Federal, state and municipal contracts. You've obviously never heard of "extras"; "weather days" and "change orders" . None of which are ever included in the original bid. Many of which are known about BEFORE the bids are made and are counted on by the contractors. Rarely are there penalties for delays or bonuses for finishing early. In New York, highway work contracts do not ever have delay penalties. That's one reason why projectts are always late and over budget. There's also the Wick's law and Federal prevailing union wage guidelines.
    What a surprise. Eric is being condescending and obnoxious. I guess that's because Eric is one of the foremost economic experts in the world (in his own mind) and of course Eric's ideology is infallible (again, in his own mind). I don't deny there is inefficiency in government enterprises, just as there is in private sector enterprises, but I guess you're right. Government enterprises are never run as well or efficiently as private enterprises. If conservative ideology says it, then it must be true.

    Norway's government run oil industry is just another example of how inefficient government run enterprises are vs. the private sector. Look at the massive oil spill Norway just had in the North Sea, from one of their government run oil rigs. You would never find anything like that happening in the Gulf Coast. Thank God the oil rigs along the Gulf Coast are run by private corporations like BP. They would never allow one of their oil rigs to explode and spill huge amounts of oil into the Gulf. Disasters like that only occur when the government is in control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    In a few states the private sector pays better. It used to be that the Feds paid less in exchange for better benefits and job security. Over the past decade or so, the Feds and most states pay higher salaries AND have better benefits. Only 20% of private sector workers get fixed pensions. Most get 401K's. Almost all public sector workers get guaranteed pensions that they can often collect after as little as 20 years service. Why do you think orange County went broke ? Why L.A. is on the verge of bankruptcy ? Why California, Illinois and N.Y. are on the brink of default ? P E N S I O N S and health care costs. Most public workers do not pay anything for their own health care. Many private sector workers pay half the cost of their health insurance.

    Europe and Japan have invested billions more in their passenger railroads than we have and many are run AT A LOSS . The Postal Service has NO COMPETITION for daily mail service.
    Again Eric is making up his own facts.

    http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/1...l-in-the-dust/

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    ^^^^ We have already been proven right. If the Keynsians ( including Bobby and Eagle ) were correct, then Obama's stimulus program would have resulted in (at least ! ) typical post-recession economic growth i.e. 7 to 8 % per annum. Instead it is wheezing along at 4 % , at best.
    No you haven't. This economic downturn was far worse than previous downturns. We could have easily gone into a depression. The fact that we didn't shows that the efforts made by the government to stabilize the economy were successful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Canada, has one of the world's soundest economies, currencies and banking systems. Where is their stimulus spending ? What is their debt to GDP ratio ? How much private debt are they guaranteeing ?
    Canada's economy is sound because they kept their banking industry heavily regulated. America followed conservative policies and de-regulated the financial sector. Look at the outcomes.

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    What a surprise. Eric is being condescending and obnoxious. I guess that's because Eric is one of the foremost economic experts in the world (in his own mind) and of course Eric's ideology is infallible (again, in his own mind). I don't deny there is inefficiency in government enterprises, just as there is in private sector enterprises, but I guess you're right. Government enterprises are never run as well or efficiently as private enterprises. If conservative ideology says it, then it must be true.

    Norway's government run oil industry is just another example of how inefficient government run enterprises are vs. the private sector. Look at the massive oil spill Norway just had in the North Sea, from one of their government run oil rigs. You would never find anything like that happening in the Gulf Coast. Thank God the oil rigs along the Gulf Coast are run by private corporations like BP. They would never allow one of their oil rigs to explode and spill huge amounts of oil into the Gulf. Disasters like that only occur when the government is in control.



    Again Eric is making up his own facts.

    http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/07/1...l-in-the-dust/
    Et tu Eagle ? I honestly thought you and I had reached the point of civil discourse where we could disagree without being disagreeable. It would help if you stopped confusing factual correction for condescension. For my part, I'll try to trim the sarcasm.

    Kudos for Norway and the "Boo of the Week" goes to BP. I hope BP has to pay every dime of clean up costs and that all off shore rigs are required to install acoustic blow out preventers. My understanding is that it would not necessarily have helped. that the BP blow out would have happened anyway.

    One reason Norway's oil biz and French trains run well is that they pay better than the private sector and NEITHER HAS ANY COMPETITION. Monopolies can be efficient.

    Assuming I did not make myself sufficiently clear, my point about outside contractors was multi-fold : the low bidder is often not the most effective way to go; political considerations including subservience to unions and things like minority set asides promote inefficiency and cost overruns.

    As for the "profitability" of foreign rail systems, including the French, there is an element of truth in what you posted with a gigantic BUT.
    The Parisian Metro has a revenue to cost ratio of 50%. Fares only cover half its operating costs.
    In 1997 the SNCF was $38 billion in debt. To comply with EU rules governing rail subsidies the French left the SNCF to operate its trains and created a new entity, the RFF to build and maintain track. It's true that the SNCF turned an operating profit but to date it hasn't paid down a sou ( excuse me, a single Euro ) on its debt of $38 billion. The RFF is run at an annual LOSS. The only profitable line in all of France is the TGV between Lyon and Paris.

    Japan had only one profitable line in the entire country, Tokyo - Osaka. The JNR lost $20 bilion a year before it weas broken up into 7 private companies. A few of which are now showing a profit. But all were sold at deep discounts with the Japanese government eating billions in infrastructure costs.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 05-13-2010 at 11:54 AM.

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    No you haven't. This economic downturn was far worse than previous downturns. We could have easily gone into a depression. The fact that we didn't shows that the efforts made by the government to stabilize the economy were successful.



    Canada's economy is sound because they kept their banking industry heavily regulated. America followed conservative policies and de-regulated the financial sector. Look at the outcomes.
    We will never know if my ( Free Market) prescriptions would have worked because they weren't tried. The Obama Adminsitration's own data shows that the stimulus package had a net ZERO effect on GDP.

    As for Canada, We AGREE, We AGREE, We AGREE !

    Canada had and still has a sensible housing policy. They did not have a Fannie and Freddie. Both of which are still costing us BILLIONS ! Nobody in Canada could get a mortgage without a hefty down payment.

    We've already hashed and rehashed how we got into our current mess and "conservative" policy had NOTHING to do with it. Moral hazard, bailouts and crony capitalism ( privatize profits; socialize losses ) are NOT part of "conservative" economics. Let's not forget it was those fire-breathing Conservatives Larry Summers, Bob Rubin and Tim Geithner who joined Phil Gramm and pushed for repeal of Glass - Steagall. Which was signed by Bill Clinton. The same bunch who joined hands with Greenspan to prevent regulation of derivatives.

    My point is that demand side remedies did not work for FDR; didn't work for Nixon; or for Ford or Carter and didn't work for either Bush. They didn't work in Britain. They certainly haven't worked in Greece or any other of the "PIGS" They have not worked and will not work for Obama.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 05-13-2010 at 11:57 AM.

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    Quote Originally Posted by Zofia View Post
    I did answer your question, look at the scales on the left and right sides of the chart. You are the only one who does not understand it. Not only do you not understand the significance of the smaller numbers on the right, but you don't understand the definition of GDP. Go buy a simple economics textbook, read up a little and then come back with an intelligent question.
    Rather than try to compete with your superior intellect and greater economic expertise, I am taking your suggestion and asking a fresh question : Do you have data that shows the opposite of what Melonie was trying to demonstrate ? That under Obama public sector employment has decreased ? That private sector employment has increased ? That's what my untrained eye got from reading her chart.

    Btw, no one was disputing the classical definition of GDP. Melonie and I were responding to Eagle's original post with a gigantic " So What ?". We took into account the costs of public sector hiring and who PAYS for those costs. We also discounted the TEMPORARY effects of counting TEMPORARY Census workers in the overall employment numbers. Did you ? Did Eagle ? Obama certainly hasn't.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 05-13-2010 at 11:58 AM.

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Et tu Eagle ? I honestly thought you and I had reached the point of civil discourse where we could disagree without being disagreeable. It would help if you stopped confusing factual correction for condescension. For my part, I'll try to trim the sarcasm.
    I thought so too, but you ridiculed me just for basically saying government can work efficiently. You don't need to be ROTFLMAO to express disagreement with what I say.

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    The fact is that increases in GOVERNMENT employment are a drag on GDP. Government workers do NOT produce goods and services. They CONSUME. Money spent on them cannot be spent on other things.
    Just where do you think the money spent on their pay goes? To Mars?

    That is QUITE an idealogue's oversimplifying overstatement! Where would we be without military, police, NIH, and someone to guard us from the corporate vandals. If you think government is expensive, try anarchy!!

    I was just going to post the same chart that Eagle posted. That is a VERY OBVIOUS improvement, inadequate as it is, because of the result of Bush administrations blunders. But that gain is REAL. Look at it again.

    Employment is employment; let's have none of this gift-horse-in-the-mouth crap.
    Sure it costs money to fix billions of wasted gambling debts and the resultant CRASH caused by the supposedly responsible finance-banking industry. What did you expect from those people playing the lottery while the Fed exployees watched porn in their cubicles?
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    The markets LOVE bailouts. Even TRILLION dollar ones that, at least in the case of Greece, will not work. Even with the bailout, Greece is headed for eventual default.
    We've seen that here. Not only does it give the failing companies a new start,it actually insures them against future failures, or at least the hope of that. That's why our failing financial institutions have greatly recovered their market value. Certainly not because of whatever quality effort they alone produced did.

    Any single company that is too big to fail is just too big to exist. Any industry that is too important to fail bears the need for government oversight. We have just seen how vital that is.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    I thought so too, but you ridiculed me just for basically saying government can work efficiently. You don't need to be ROTFLMAO to express disagreement with what I say.
    I think you took it a little too personally but since I never intended any personal insult, I apologize for any hurt feelings.

    Can you point to one thing the government does efficiently ? Not even defense or Homeland Security is efficient afaic. Not when Springfield, Mass. gets the same proportionate share of funds to secure its mass transit system that NYC does. Not when we build weapons we don't need and keep open bases that ought to be closed.

    You pointed to the French National Rail System ( SNCF ) showing an operating "profit" which is superficially true. I filled in the blanks and pointed out that there is a $38 billion debt that the French taxpayers are on the hook for; that the RFF which builds and maintains the tracks operates at a loss. If GM never had to recoup its R & D costs and was able to buy engines and tires at deep discounts, it too could show an operating "profit".

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    Just where do you think the money spent on their pay goes? To Mars?

    That is QUITE an idealogue's oversimplifying overstatement! Where would we be without military, police, NIH, and someone to guard us from the corporate vandals. If you think government is expensive, try anarchy!!

    I was just going to post the same chart that Eagle posted. That is a VERY OBVIOUS improvement, inadequate as it is, because of the result of Bush administrations blunders. But that gain is REAL. Look at it again.

    Employment is employment; let's have none of this gift-horse-in-the-mouth crap.
    Sure it costs money to fix billions of wasted gambling debts and the resultant CRASH caused by the supposedly responsible finance-banking industry. What did you expect from those people playing the lottery while the Fed exployees watched porn in their cubicles?
    When did I ever advocate anarchy ? Of course we need government to perform its CONSTITUTIONAL functions.

    As Melonie has repeatedly pointed out, Stimulus money is borrowed and taxed and then given to government employees who pay part of it back in taxes. How is that efficient compared to private sector hires ? I"ll give you an even better one that surprised me. Extended unemployment benefits have been shown to extend unemployment ! While somewhat anecdotal and not as definitive as I'd prefer, there are some studies out now showing that the unemployed too often prefer to stay home and collect a check rather than take a job. Sometimes a lower paying job; sometimes a job paying MORE than their unemployment check provides . THAT's the part that REALLY surprised me. Just because the "new" job doesn't pay as well as the job they lost or is in a different field, some ( repeat SOME ) unemployed feel entitled to stay home on the dole as opposed to working. Larry Summers has researched and written on this phenomenon and has advocated eliminating extended unemployment benefits.

    Btw, except for Citicorp and AIG, all the banks have paid back TARP plus interest.

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    Because people want to develop their careers. Instead of sitting on unemployment, after I got laid off from the crumbling financial industry, I took several short term contract gigs in between unemployment check gathering.

    Now when I go to interviews, I get scorn and frowns because I worked a bunch of short term jobs, some unrelated to my primary career goal. Hence, not taking unemployment actually hurt me and worked against me.

    Also, if one takes a lower paying or commission only job, unemployment benefits are re-calculated to a lower amount once that job ends.

    Staying on unemployment isn't just about being lazy, often its strategic.

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    Default Re: U.S. adds 290,000 jobs in April

    Quote Originally Posted by KS_Stevia View Post
    Because people want to develop their careers. Instead of sitting on unemployment, after I got laid off from the crumbling financial industry, I took several short term contract gigs in between unemployment check gathering.

    Now when I go to interviews, I get scorn and frowns because I worked a bunch of short term jobs, some unrelated to my primary career goal. Hence, not taking unemployment actually hurt me and worked against me.

    Also, if one takes a lower paying or commission only job, unemployment benefits are re-calculated to a lower amount once that job ends.

    Staying on unemployment isn't just about being lazy, often its strategic.
    Hmmm. Are you saying that prospective employers would prefer that you sit home and collect checks rather than work ? Wouldn't they be entitled to question your industriousness ? I'm trying to understand how you can advocate unemployment as a "career builder". Is that REALLY what you were trying to say or did I miss something ?

    I've been unemployed several times. I ALWAYS took a job over an unemployment check. Not all of those jobs ended up on my resume. More than once I went from white collar to manual labor.

    Are you also saying that people are refusing lower paying jobs to protect their level of unemployment insurance should they get laid off again ? Let's assume that's true. Is that what we want people doing ? Shouldn't it ALWAYS be preferable for people to work ? For their sake and for society as a whole ?
    Btw, I think unemployment is calculated based on total annual income so a short term lower paying job might have little to no effect.

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