This is a new argument in the "independent contractor vs employee" status... apparently we just rent space in the minds of some owners & managers.
http://www.kansas.com/2010/05/18/131...employees.html





This is a new argument in the "independent contractor vs employee" status... apparently we just rent space in the minds of some owners & managers.
http://www.kansas.com/2010/05/18/131...employees.html
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There is some ... I repeat some ... IRS precedent for the interpretation that exotic dancers are 'tenant businesses'. It's actually a fairly broad category which also includes hair stylists being 'tenants' of a beauty salon, local growers being 'tenants' of a farmer's market, local artists being 'tenants' of a renaissance fair etc. In each case the club / salon / farmer's market / renaissance fair provides the basic 'brick and mortar' facilities, advertising, security etc. which allow the 'tenant businesses' to interact with customers. In return the 'tenant businesses' pay some combination of fixed dollars or percentage of earnings / profits for use of the facilities, advertising, security etc.
As to whether these 'tenant businesses' are sole proprietor businesses or corporate businesses depends on how the 'tenant business' has been structured, and has nothing to do with the club / salon / farmer's market / renaissance fair etc.
The larger question of course is the degree of control that the club / salon / farmer's market / renaissance fair etc. exert over their supposed 'tenant businesses'. When that degree of control begins to include dictated pricing levels, dictated working hours, 'production quotas' etc. then the argument can be made that an 'employer' like level of control is being exerted.
The larger issue of course is that virtually every state treasury / unemployment insurance fund is dead broke. Therefore, every DOL / state court ruling in favor of 'employee' status also means the new ability of that state to start collecting unemployment insurance premiums from the 'employer'. Also every DOL / state court ruling in favor of 'employee' status also means that dancers' incomes must be tracked and reported by the 'employer' thus making them much easier to tax. As such, just about every single case of this nature has been decided in favor of 'employee' status !
~
Last edited by Melonie; 05-19-2010 at 03:27 AM.
There really needs to be either a Union, or a Co-op or something, to police the Industry. Many club owners-by operating illegally have given the Industry a bad rep. Stripping should be considered an art form and given the same protections afforded to actors and musicians. There are no standards, rules or guidelines. There needs to be some and it needs to be done by "strippers" not the government. If we had a union or a co-op nationally the shear power of our numbers would go along way. Numbers = votes. How many Adult nightclub workers do you think there are nationally? We need a voice to protect us from the club owners, the customers and the government.





Melonie, I agree... I've always seen us sort of similar to hair stylists. I figured they had to fill out a 1099 as well though. Do they not? I've got no clue on that.
Djbobby, as far as the union... it won't ever happen - and that could be good or bad. I have said for years though that I'd like to see dancers put together a Legislative Group that would lobby together to get certain laws changed... like what temperature clubs need to stay between (so they aren't trying to freeze us to keep our nipples hard), and there are things about how clean the clubs must be, every dancer being given the opportunity to have a locker, laws on house fees etc.
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It depends on the type of stylist I'm sure. You can either rent a booth or make commission, and some places pay you hourly. I used to work in that gawd awful industry lol. I never rented however.
On my way to being the Bitch Goddess of your dreams... or nightmares.
It is happening in Massachusetts. Things are changing for the better. Legislation is being written to reform the way Adult nightclubs have been allowed to operate. The Legislation is being written by several club employees. It is time for the Industry to "grow up". No more underground economics, its time for Capitalism to take over. Mutual trade for mutual profit. I know some feel they would rather remain Independent Contractors, but we all know that most prefer IC's status mainly to avoid or fudge tax responsibilities. I would rather make $2000 a week legally thank you.
Last edited by djbobby; 05-21-2010 at 07:57 PM. Reason: boo boo





Djbobby, that's on a local level though. I'm not sure how long you've been in the industry but there have been multiple small unions, which eventually fizzle out with the exception of the one in Canada.
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I've been in the Industry for 20 years. The legislation is State wide and will be a model that other States should adopt. Just as healthcare reform began in Massachusetts so is Adult Nightclub reform. Don't believe club owners propaganda.
Also take note that the Exotic Dancers Union of San Francisco has been active since 1997.
and this.





^^^ My understanding is that union at the Lusty Lady is no longer a "union" like we think of unions since the Lusty Lady is now employee owned.
http://www.lustyladysf.com/history/
As for the Exotic Dancers Union, you'll notice that website is only one webpage. My understanding is that the work dancers in that area put together formed the Exotic Dancers Alliance that is now part of BaySwan.
http://www.bayswan.org/EDAindex.html
Here's the issue though: in most clubs there is too much turn around with dancers and too many young ones who simply don't care... they don't even realize that they should care. So trying to organize them or unionize them in most places will not work. If you had dancers who stayed at a club for years at a time without much change then I think you'd see a lot more of these unions. A national one though... I just don't see that happening. Plus, if could force some dancers into a tough position that they don't agree with or cause them to be harrassed by their co-workers if they don't want to join the union.
Last edited by Kylea2; 05-21-2010 at 08:44 PM.
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Not to be rude but...How do you know there is "so much turn around"? Did you do a study on it? Is it fact based theory? Is it higher than other Industries? We have done a fact based study and found... that the turn around for strip-club workers is no different from non unionized turn around in the construction industry. However, union construction workers have 70% less of a turn around than non union workers of both the construction and Adult club Industry. Why? Because of the protections afforded them perhaps? As far as those young ones that don't care. That is because there are no set guidelines or rules to follow. No training is made available by the clubs. The club owners are the ones that don't care they just want those house fees and fines that they don't pay taxes on.
Last edited by djbobby; 05-21-2010 at 08:58 PM. Reason: boo boo





I'll tell you what... personally - I think it's higher than any job I've ever been in. Since you seem to think it's not though I will contact the U.S. Department of Labor, A.C.E., & ED Publications on Monday and see if anyone has statistics on regarding this, and then we can compare notes.
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I'm still going to call those places in the morning, but in the mean time you might want to look at these:
Exotic Dancer
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/..._Dancer/Salary
* Less than 1 yr experience = 10%
* 1 - 4 years of experience = 58%
* 5 - 9 years of experience = 11%
* 10 - 19 years of experience = 11%
* 20+ years of experience = 9%
Construction Worker (doesn't specify union/non-union)
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/...er/Hourly_Rate
* Less than 1 yr experience = 5%
* 1 - 4 years of experience = 38%
* 5 - 9 years of experience = 24%
* 10 - 19 years of experience = 21%
* 20+ years of experience = 13%
Administrative Assistant
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/...nt/Hourly_Rate
* Less than 1 yr experience = 3%
* 1 - 4 years of experience = 20%
* 5 - 9 years of experience = 24%
* 10 - 19 years of experience = 21%
* 20+ years of experience = 13%
Now, obviously these statistics have to do with experience in years - regardless of where the experience came from... so they could have switched employers. Even at that though, you will note that very few dancers have even 5-9 years worth of experience compared to the other industries that are more than double.
Personally, I'd say that's because there's high turnover. That doesn't necessarily mean that its bad, but a good number of dancers use this job to get through school and then move onto another industry. They aren't thinking long term, they are thinking short term.
Tell us about these studies you have. Who did them? How many clubs were studied? What was the turnover?
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^^^ unfortunately there are very few real world examples of clubs that actually operate in an environment of a totally above board employer / employee business. One that everyone is aware of, of course is ( or more correctly, was ) the Lusty Lady. There are also other scattered examples of clubs that have been 'forced' into the totally above board employer / employee business model as a result of DOL / court rulings / lawsuits.
It is my understanding that after becoming an above board employer / employee club ... and after the clubowner must start to pay state worker's comp premiums, state unemployment insurance premiums, 'employer's share of employee dancer social security taxes, tipped minimum wage etc., the clubowner quickly discovers that his business is now operating at a loss. Since the clubowner cannot force more customers to come into the club, and cannot force customers to spend more money once they are inside the club, the only real source of additional revenues available to the clubowner is the dancer's work product ( which as an employer he legally owns ). Thus the clubowner typically institutes a 50-50% 'split' of customer money spent on private dances / vip's etc., or increases the club's proportion of customer money in some other way.
The bottom line is that if the number of customers coming in the club's front door is not increasing, and the amount of money customers are spending once inside the club is not increasing, then having to pay for new employee status related 'costs of doing business' such as unemployment insurance premiums, workers comp premiums, employer's share of dancers' Social Security taxes, etc. represents a redirection of club customer dollars to 'third parties'. By definition this means that the clubowner, or the dancers, or both, will be left with less money !!!
Obviously, with property taxes increasing, with utility bills increasing, with adjustable rate mortgage monthly payments increasing etc. the clubowner's non-employee dancer status related costs of doing business also remain just as substantial as they always were. With the new employee status related costs of doing business added on top, the clubowner indeed faces a difficult situation remaining profitable while restricting the club's 'split' of dancer's private dance and vip sales to a palatable level. The Lusty Lady's owner simply couldn't achieve a profit under these conditions ... and in turn sold the club to the dancers. Once faced with economic reality, those dancer-owners were then forced to make a decision to cut their own pay to the $10 an hour level in order to keep the club in business ( for a while at least ).
The point that I have been leading up to is that the comparatively high earnings potential available to independent contractor dancers is as high as it is because 'third parties' like gov't insurance funds are not consuming a large 'piece' of the total club customer dollar pie. Same is true of gov't tax agencies ... where employer clubowners and employee dancers are both subject to higher de-facto tax rates. In today's poor economy it is certainly not a 'given' that the change from independent contractor status to employer / employee status has a sufficiently large pool of customer dollars available to A. allow the club to pay its bills and provide some reasonable degree of return on investment to the clubowner, and/or B. allow the dancers to retain enough post club 'split' post taxes dancing income to make dancing economically worthwhile ( versus accepting a $10 an hour straight job, for example )
This is an undeniable fact ... whether or not it has been officially documented. Based on anecdotal evidence and 15 years worth of personal experience in the industry, those statistics indeed tell the true story ...Even at that though, you will note that very few dancers have even 5-9 years worth of experience compared to the other industries that are more than double.
Personally, I'd say that's because there's high turnover. That doesn't necessarily mean that its bad, but a good number of dancers use this job to get through school and then move onto another industry. They aren't thinking long term, they are thinking short term.
A. ~7 out of 10 dancers enter and leave the industry in 4 years or less ( which conveniently coincides with 4 year college degree programs )
B. less than 2 dancers in 10 are able to make a serious long term 'career' out of dancing ( i.e. working for 10 years or more )
in this sort of environment, there is zero chance of 'organizing' a majority of dancers to do anything ... let alone convincing them to make sacrifices in terms of short term income potential in ( theoretical ) exchange for long term benefits that the majority will not stick around long enough to experience. And this is particularly the case if some of the changes will have to involve rigid employee work schedules, limited working hours per week etc.
If you're truly interested in exploring an applicable analogy, try checking out professional athletes versus professional sports team owners. Obviously the name of the game is for the 'independent contractor' athletes to seek maximum short term income potential ... since like dancers they know that ( with extremely few exceptions ) they will be physically / competitively incapable of successfully continuing in the industry for more than 10 years.
Also, as recently evidenced by LeBron James becoming a 'free agent', the ability of clubs ( both ball and strip ) to attract paying customers is indeed influenced by the 'star power' of the club's 'talent'. Where strip clubs are concerned, the adoption of an employer / employee business model serves to reduce the income potential of 'star power' dancers ( via reducing their sometimes 100% retention of customer private dance and vip money to 50%) while at the same time subsidizing marginal dancers ( who receive the same $3 an hour tipped minimum wage and same unemployment insurance / workers comp benefits while sitting in the club's dressing room / bar. This only serves to motivate 'star power' dancers to seek work in different clubs, leaving the employer / employee club with marginal dancers. This in turn reduces customer return rates / customer spending on private dances and vip's, which reduces the total pool of customer dollars without significantly reducing the costs of doing business at the same time, thus setting in motion a downhill spiral that ends in bankruptcy and club closure.
~
Last edited by Melonie; 05-22-2010 at 04:18 AM.
I have been in this business for 20 years and know maybe 2 dancers that "danced their way through college". That is the stereotypical excuse for stripping and one reason why the Industry isn't accepted by the mainstream. Excuses. Why should you make an excuse for stripping? It is Art. But is not perceived that way and strippers are partly to blame.
Why go to college when you are already working at a job that you could easily make 100k a year at? For what, stability? There is no more stability in the workforce any more. Regardless of your profession.
If you stay in shape and off drugs you should be able to dance till your 40. With the proper investment strategy you could retire at 45. Since the Industry is not structured neither are the workers. Strippers frequently have to deal with the negative image the Industry... because of its lack of structure... is perceived by the mainstream. Perhaps why there is such a high emotional cost workers in the Industry pay. It's not fair. And its the club owners who are at fault. There needs to be structure for any Industry to thrive.
Melonie,
If a club cannot exist without having to "take a piece" of it's workers money it should not be open in the first place. Clubs are supposed to make money off of Liquor Sales and cover charges, not taking a portion of an employees earnings. There is no acceptable reason for clubs to steal its workers money, ever. Right now workers at the majority of clubs nationally are not employees or Independent contractors. They are nothing. Clubs do not even 1099 workers, it is one big underground economy. How is that at all OK? And its not just strippers, don't forget the bouncers, DJ's, waitresses & shot girls.
Will some clubs close if forced to operate legally? Yes. Will new clubs open that are run legally? Yes. It is the greed of the club owners and their illegal operations that are destroying the Industry. If the Industry was structured and policed by the workers and/or chosen representatives. It would facilitate the Industry to exist in mainstream America remove the negative persona and provide growth and wealth to the workers.





dJbobby, please post your statistics as requested.
Neither Melonie, nor myself are new to this industry. We are both in the 11% before the 20yr category. I can't speak for her on her personal experiences, but I can tell you that in my experience many dancers do work their way through college by dancing. I have worked at more clubs that I could probably keep track of, I danced my way through two college degrees while having a day job as well. I know I wasn't the only girl in college at the clubs, far from as a matter of fact. While I didn't sit in the dressing room doing homework, I saw many dancers who did, and even more who were enrolled in college and did their homework at home.
You are right, there is longevity available in this industry... if you want it. I do, but you will find many dancers that don't. They are using it just to get by and improve their life to what they see fit.
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How can a club SCHEDULE dancers when they're IC's? Isn't that illegal? The purpose of paying a housefee is to work when a dancers wants to. If I'm on a schedule, I want x amount paid per hour (like how dealers in Vegas gets paid ... some are paid more than min wage), commission from my dances, medical and dental insurance.
Does it matter what the turn over rates are? Are you suggesting the because strippers that only work to pay for college should surrender their employment rights?
More than half of U.S. workers—60 million—say they would join a union right now if they could. Why? They know that coming together to bargain with employers over wages, benefits, and working conditions is the best path to getting ahead.
Workers who belong to unions earn 30 percent more than non-union workers, and are 63 percent more likely to have employer-provided health care.
As AdventureBaby points out. If strippers are Independent Contractors. Then justify why clubs can control their schedules, fine them, force them to pay dj's and b-tenders, sell t-shirts etc...???
The only reason clubs use the Independent Contractor status/label on workers is to;
EVADE PAYING TAXES, EVADE PAYING WAGES, EVADE WORKMANS COMP. and to EVADE UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE.
Stripclub owners deny workers of their Standard worker benefits that every other employee in the USA have. No other Industry does this. NONE. Even illegal aliens get better treatment. How is this OK?





^The turn over rates matter because they'll dictate the likelihood of dancers joining a union. No one is denying that a well-run Union would be AMAZING; but we are pointing out that due to the fact that dancing is a short term endeavor for most, a Union would be almost impossible. Girls aren't going to put in the extra work to unionize if they're planning on leaving the industry in within the next 5 years. Some of us ladies don't want this job forever, regardless of pay. Some just want to pay for school, pay off their debt, get a head start on their finances, furnish their house - and then quit. Point, blank, simple.
You must not have met many dancers if you've only met 2 working through college. I've barely been in this business a few years and I've met dozens. I'm one of them.



This is an interesting thread and ties into a few other topics elsewhere on SW. I wonder how long it will take the WA clubs to begin the process of establishing the strip club IC’s as employees.
They are already in murky territory. Dancers in the Seattle area are required to have a business license along with their entertainer’s license. They are also required to adhere to a schedule and risk high fines and make-up days if they call in, no show, or are late. Clubs don’t allow the dancers to work at any other club in the area, so most work over the definition of part time.
The precedent has been established recently of making club owners responsible for the “activities” occurring inside their clubs. The extras were out of control and instead of citing/arresting the dancers which has been the norm, the federal and local governments went after the owners. This resulted in a plea bargain by the majority owners to avoid prison time and the handing over of $4.5 million of business assets.
I don’t know how much a three year investigation cost the Feds or the Seattle PD, but $4.5 million probably whet their appetite for more. As previously stated, under financed governments and municipalities are becoming very creative and aggressive with revenue raising. A first hand account: I applied for a master business license but didn’t earn any sales revenue because I didn‘t start my business. Still, I received a personal “urgent” call from the State about my quarterly return-only two weeks after the due date. There was an audible disappointment in his voice when I explained that my deal fell through and there was no business yet.
Another interesting way WA state collects money is a Use Tax. When you buy assets for your business, you pay a sales tax and then you pay again for using it. Every two years (not sure on the time frame) items used in your business are assessed and then you pay a tax on using them.
A new practice by small cities is to require any companies doing work in their area to have a business license for that city even though they already have one where their office located. The city sends out its employees to look for work trucks in their neighborhoods and then cites them for not having a license. This is very detrimental for small business such as carpet cleaners who wouldn’t be able to afford an expensive license for every city.
Last edited by PinkMinx; 05-23-2010 at 12:37 PM. Reason: Hard to read
Is there a time restraint on Liberty? Is the Constitution written for people who only live past 65? The length of time you work at any business does not dictate on what labor laws should be followed. The law is the law.
What extra work is there to unionize? You sign a card and pay $25 a week. Do you prefer paying $200 a week to a club owner and having no say at all? A union would have really good lawyers to protect employees rights. What protections do you have now?
Imagine making the same money you make now..without the house fees or fines. Imagine that when a club lays you off you could collect unemployment or, if you injure yourself workmans comp kicks in. Imagine guaranteed safe clean environments to work. Are these bad things?
Last edited by djbobby; 05-23-2010 at 07:14 PM. Reason: boo boo





^^^ at least they do until their 'employer' company is bankrupted ( or bailed out via US taxpayer money ).Workers who belong to unions earn 30 percent more than non-union workers, and are 63 percent more likely to have employer-provided health care
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