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Thread: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

  1. #26
    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    America’s collapse occurred when government ceased to represent the people and became the instrument of a private oligarchy.
    ^^ As I've been saying......

    From http://www.thonline.com/article.cfm?id=291057

    Double Take: Should the tax cuts enacted during the George W. Bush administration be extended?
    BY RALPH SCHARNAU DOUBLE TAKE LEFT

    <excerpts from a long article>

    In the midst of our Great Recession with steep unemployment, Congress must decide whether or not to extend the Bush administration's tax cuts, which expire at the end of this year. The cuts disproportionately benefit the highest-income Americans, the richest 2 percent of U.S. taxpayers.

    For married tax filers with incomes above $250,000, the top rate fell from 39.6 percent to 36 percent. For single filers with incomes above $200,000, the top rate dropped from 35 percent to 33 percent.

    Enacted in 2001 and 2003, the Bush-era tax cuts helped widen income disparities, delivered zero net job creation and inflated the deficit. A remarkable two-thirds of the total increase in income in the U.S. from 2002 through 2007 went to the top 1 percent of Americans. The total income of the wealthiest 1 percent of the population exceeds the combined earnings of the bottom 50 percent by a nearly 2-to-1 margin.

    Until it recently passed, along almost straight party lines, Republican Senators unconscionably blocked several attempts to extend unemployment insurance to more than 15 million people. Now they not only want the Bush tax cuts extended, which will drive up the deficit, but they also issued a contradictory call for fiscal discipline.

    With the support of Republican leaders, the Bush administration undertook two wars and a Medicare drug payment plan without offsets to pay for them. While the national debt increased around 70 percent, workers' paychecks failed to keep pace with price increases and productivity gains.

    Obama wants the high-end tax cuts to expire on schedule. But he would retain the lower tax rates for individuals making less than $200,000 and families earning less than $250,000.

    Returning the top two tax brackets to their higher, pre-2001 levels would affect only the richest taxpayers. It would save an estimated $826 billion over a 10-year period.

    Besides, tax cuts for the rich often get walled off from the economy, going into financial transactions or just sitting in banks. Tax cuts for the poor and working class end up being spent and have a higher multiplier effect in terms of consumption and jobs.
    ...
    A Congressional Budget Office study found that extending the Bush tax cuts for high-income filers would be the least effective of all spending and tax options for boosting economic growth and creating jobs. The CBO noted sounder federal policies to stimulate economic expansion and job creation.

    There are a couple of ways to restore fairness to our tax code while simultaneously increasing revenues. Congress should end tax havens overseas for large corporations. Congress should also impose a modest financial speculation fee on Wall Street.

    With the help of American taxpayers, the biggest banks and brokerage firms have recovered nicely. But in the real world, millions of ordinary working people face economic hard times.

    The web of tax breaks and subsidies for the very wealthy and large corporations continues to shift more of the tax burden to the working and middle classes and small businesses. Real national recovery will occur when government taxing and spending policies create opportunities for all Americans, not just the moneyed elite.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

  2. #27
    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Mr. Didn't Know It all, Alan Greenspan 's recent quotes :

    “Our problem basically is that we have a very distorted economy,” Greenspan said. Any recovery has mostly been limited to large banks, large businesses and “high-income individuals who have just had $800 billion added to their 401(k)s, and are spending it and are carrying what consumption there is.”

    “The rest of the economy, small business, small banks, and a very significant amount of the labor force, which is in tragic unemployment, long term unemployment -- that is pulling the economy apart,” Greenspan said.

    “At the moment, there is no sign of that, basically because the financial system is broke, and you cannot have inflation if the financial system is not working.”

    Greenspan says long-term unemployment is pulling the economy apart even though large banks are doing much better and large companies are in excellent shape.

    Cheering the comeback of the stock market, Greenspan tells NBC's "Meet the Press" that a rising stock market will do more to stimulate the economy than any of the remedies now being discussed. (is this consistent with his previous statements above? NO, it seems to me)

    (And at last....) "I'm very much in favor of tax cuts but not with borrowed money and the problem that we have gotten into in recent years is spending programs with borrowed money, tax cuts with borrowed money," he said. "And at the end of the day that proves disastrous. My view is I don't think we can play subtle policy here."

    And earlier this week, "I've never seen the type of animosity between the government and Wall Street," Greenspan said, adding he was "not sure where it comes from."
    -------
    Alan, let me help with that last one....how about its playin Russian Roulette with the world-wide economy because of the sector's big-headed profit+risk-loving mentality. and their continuing to play the same game until the new Frank-Dodd regulations take place. Think that may have some people upset? You OK with that now?

    In spite of that last senior moment, Alan, 1 out of 7 is not too bad.
    Last edited by threlayer; 08-09-2010 at 11:33 AM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    How about investment actually meaning investment again?

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    speak of the devil, here's an entertaining speculation of where this could lead !!!


    (snip)"The dollar had collapsed as world reserve currency in 2012 when the worsening economic depression made it clear to Washington’s creditors that the federal budget deficit was too large to be financed except by the printing of money.

    With the dollar’s demise, import prices skyrocketed. As Americans were unable to afford foreign-made goods, the transnational corporations that were producing offshore for US markets were bankrupted, further eroding the government’s revenue base.

    The government was forced to print money in order to pay its bills, causing domestic prices to rise rapidly. Faced with hyperinflation, Washington took recourse in terminating Social Security and Medicare and followed up by confiscating the remnants of private pensions. This provided a one-year respite, but with no more resources to confiscate, money creation and hyperinflation resumed.

    Organized food deliveries broke down when the government fought hyperinflation with fixed prices and the mandate that all purchases and sales had to be in US paper currency. Unwilling to trade appreciating goods for depreciating paper, goods disappeared from stores.

    Washington responded as Lenin had done during the “war communism” period of Soviet history. The government sent troops to confiscate goods for distribution in kind to the population. This was a temporary stop-gap until existing stocks were depleted, as future production was discouraged. Much of the confiscated stocks became the property of the troops who seized the goods.

    Goods reappeared in markets under the protection of local warlords. Transactions were conducted in barter and in gold, silver, and copper coins.

    Other clans organized around families and individuals who possessed stocks of food, bullion, guns and ammunition. Uneasy alliances formed to balance differences in clan strengths. Betrayals quickly made loyalty a necessary trait for survival.

    Large scale food and other production broke down as local militias taxed distribution as goods moved across local territories. Washington seized domestic oil production and refineries, but much of the government’s gasoline was paid for safe passage across clan territories.

    Most of the troops in Washington’s overseas bases were abandoned. As their resource stocks were drawn down, the abandoned soldiers were forced into alliances with those with whom they had been fighting.

    Washington found it increasingly difficult to maintain itself. As it lost control over the country, Washington was less able to secure supplies from abroad as tribute from those Washington threatened with nuclear attack. Gradually other nuclear powers realized that the only target in America was Washington. The more astute saw the writing on the wall and slipped away from the former capital city.

    When Rome began her empire, Rome’s currency consisted of gold and silver coinage. Rome was well organized with efficient institutions and the ability to supply troops in the field so that campaigns could continue indefinitely, a monopoly in the world of Rome’s time.

    When hubris sent America in pursuit of overseas empire, the venture coincided with the offshoring of American manufacturing, industrial, and professional service jobs and the corresponding erosion of the government’s tax base, with the advent of massive budget and trade deficits, with the erosion of the fiat paper currency’s value, and with America’s dependence on foreign creditors and puppet rulers.

    The Roman Empire lasted for centuries. The American one collapsed overnight.

    Rome’s corruption became the strength of her enemies, and the Western Empire was overrun.

    America’s collapse occurred when government ceased to represent the people and became the instrument of a private oligarchy. Decisions were made in behalf of short-term profits for the few at the expense of unmanageable liabilities for the many.

    Overwhelmed by liabilities, the government collapsed.

    Globalism had run its course. Life reformed on a local basis."(snip)

    from http://www.infowars.com/the-year-america-dissolved/
    I'm sure this will come true just like the dollar default, bankruptcy of GM and Chrysler, US Bond default, and riots predicted in one of your posts for last year and the massive increase in food prices and food riots predicted in one of your posts this year. As I said before, you make things out to be much worse than they are.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Yes, I obviously left out this entire line of discussion ... because it is a pipe dream in real world economic terms. To begin with, no American corporation HAS to stay based in America - thus if the gov't attempted to enact new regulations many corporations would simply pack up and move ( taking yet more jobs and US tax revenues with them ). And of those US corporations who remained, in point of fact no corporation actually pays taxes - they merely pass on the higher costs of those taxes in the form of higher prices, or if unable to do so because of market conditions they go bankrupt. Also, if you check recent corporate balance sheets, you'll find that the majority of their profits are now coming from OVERSEAS sales and operations - meaning that choosing to shut down US operations would constitute the loss of their LEAST profitable 'division'.

    If there is any 'arrogance' in play here, it is coming from those who think that the jurisdiction of the US gov't extends world-wide and those who think that the US gov't can direct the flow of worldwide capital. It doesn't and it can't !!! Thus the 'rich', the international corporations who outsourced / offshored / automated away US jobs, the US and international investors who supply the capital for those corporations etc. all have the option of 'voting with their feet' ... or at least moving their financial activities out of the US ... if new gov't regulations / future US business conditions become 'oppressive'.

    Like it or not, the world has changed tremendously since WW2 / Bretton Woods. America is no longer a net creditor country - instead she is hugely in debt, with debt growing daily. As such she cannot afford to 'piss off' international lenders. Also, America is no longer the predominant manufacturer - all of the bombed out factories in Europe and Asia have been rebuilt, and the rest of the world is NOT dependent on America to supply them anything ( with the possible exception of food ). And as the coup de grace, the US Dollar is no longer the 'only stable currency left standing' upon which all worldwide transactions / settlements once depended - international transactions can now be settled in IMF SDR's of Euros or Yen. The point here is that the US is no longer in a position to 'call the shots' re the international operations of US corporations, the international financial activities of 'rich' Americans, etc. ... and any attempt to do so is likely to make matters worse instead of better !
    Like it or not, the US is still the biggest economy in the world with 300 million consumers. The US still has a significant amount of influence around the world and with corporations.


    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    yes ... unfortunately ... I do know !!! This is one of the reasons that I'll be watching developments from way south of the border ! This is also one of the reasons that I have been trying to post 'wake up call' topics in DD !
    No, you post these outrageous gloom and doom predictions that always fail to come true.


    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ultimately, this is the point that many 'arrogant' Americans don't want to face. A key structural change has indeed taken place in that, thanks to globalism, most US workers are no longer sheltered from the economic realities of the rest of the world. And that reality is, on a productivity versus labor + benefit cost basis, that US workers are now less productive than their counterparts in many other countries. This directly leads to another reality i.e. high US unemployment.
    Again, you're making things up based on your ideology. As recently as 2006 we were near, or at, full employment. There wasn't any massive relocation of manufacturing over the past 3 years. As I have stated many times before, the high unemployment is a result of the financial crisis that occurred in the US, not globalism.


    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    First of all, nobody in America starves to death !!! America's 'poor' have a far higher standard of living than 'working class' people in 3rd world countries ... which is the reason that so many of them cross the US border illegally ! But to answer your question, at this point there simply isn't any solution which will allow 'working class' Americans to retain the artificially high standard of living that they have enjoyed in the past. Present attempts to do so involve the US gov't organizing a massive 'transfer of wealth' from the US 'rich' to the US 'poor' ... but this is failing because the 'rich' always have, and always will, be able to circumvent actually having to pay official US gov't tax rates. Thus in real world terms, this massive 'transfer of wealth' to sustain an artificially high standard of living for the US 'poor' will actually involve imposing heavy taxes on the US 'middle class' - enabled by the voting majority of American 'poor' who directly benefit from that 'transfer of wealth' and who suffer no apparent personal financial consequences by supporting the higher taxation of someone else. And this brings us full circle back to the original topic of this thread.

    The 'inconvenient truth' here is that, for the last 60 years or so, the US ... and the US 'working class' in particular ... enjoyed a historically unsustainable high standard of living as the result of American 'empire'. But that 'empire' is rapidly collapsing. Devoid of the additional 'wealth' formerly extracted from other parts of the world as the result of those 'empire' related activities, Americans are now being forced to deal with the issue of living within the means that their own capacity for 'wealth creation' is capable of sustaining.


    ~
    Again you're making stuff up based on your ideology.

  6. #31
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    by all means, don't let facts get in the way of ideology ...

    from

    (snip)"The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census Bureau, taken from various government reports:

    Forty six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three bedroom house with one and a half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.

    Seventy six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.

    Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two thirds have more than two rooms per person.

    The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)

    Nearly three quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.

    Ninety seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.

    Seventy eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.

    Seventy three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.

    As a group, America's poor are far from being chronically undernourished. The average consumption of protein, vitamins, and minerals is virtually the same for poor and middle class children and, in most cases, is well above recommended norms. Poor children actually consume more meat than do higher income children and have average protein intakes 100 percent above recommended levels (snip)


    As recently as 2006 we were near, or at, full employment
    In your view, I'm sure that this is totally unrelated to 5 years worth of post-9/11 GWB tax cuts, no doubt ?





    wasn't any massive relocation of manufacturing over the past 3 years
    tell that to the remaining US General Motors workers who have witnessed the creation of 32,000 new GM jobs in China, 8,000 new GM jobs in Brazil etc. while US GM jobs continue to trickle away. Tell that to a few thousand US Amana / Maytag workers who saw the total elimination of their remaining US manufacturing operations in favor of Mexico and points further south. Tell that to tens of thousands of Silicon Valley workers who have seen their US jobs moved to India and Ireland. The list goes on and on.

    The point about relocation of manufacturing is that it is happening for two reasons not just one. The initial reason was to avoid high and rising US 'costs of doing business', i.e. lower costs of offshore production making products to re-import into the US market. But the second reason is that, for many multinational corporations, their primary markets / source of profits are now shifting overseas as well. Note that GM now earns far more profits from manufacturing and sales in CHINA than it does in the USA !!! Even the NY Times must concede this fact ...



    As I have posted before, with a few exceptions, the large multinational corporations have 'smartened up' in regard to blunt announcements of large plant closures in the US in favor of new offshore facilities. Instead, they are 'quietly' using every economic 'downturn' to eliminate more US operations and jobs, and when an economic 'upturn' follows capacity is expanded offshore to meet rising demand instead of rehiring US workers and cranking up US operations.

    But there ARE exceptions, i.e. Emerson CEO David Farr ... who makes no bones about the ongoing offshore transition of manufacturing operations.

    (snip)"Emerson Electric Co. (EMR) Chief Executive Officer David Farr said the U.S. government is hurting manufacturers with regulation and taxes and his company will continue to focus on growth overseas.

    Emerson, the maker of electrical equipment and InSinkErator garbage disposals with $20.9 billion in sales for the year ended September, will keep expanding in emerging markets, which represented 32 percent of revenue in 2009.

    About 36 percent of manufacturing is now in “best-cost countries” up from 21 percent in 2003, according to a slides accompanying his speech.

    Farr, in his presentation, also said manufacturers are being hurt by taxes and regulation. He said companies will create jobs in India and China, “places where people want the products and where the governments welcome you to actually do something.”

    Emerson has shed more than 20,000 jobs since the end of 2008 to lower expenses. “What do you think I am going to do?” Farr asked. “I’m not going to hire anybody in the United States. I’m moving. They are doing everything possible to destroy jobs.”"(snip)

    from

    ^^^ this PERMANENT PARADIGM SHIFT is the reason that US unemployment is not falling, as well as the reason that the US 'middle class' will continue to decline.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-01-2010 at 06:29 PM.

  7. #32
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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    by all means, don't let facts get in the way of ideology ...

    from http://www.heritage.org/research/rep...rty-in-america

    (snip)"The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census Bureau, taken from various government reports:

    Forty six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three bedroom house with one and a half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.

    Seventy six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.

    Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two thirds have more than two rooms per person.

    The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)

    Nearly three quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.

    Ninety seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.

    Seventy eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.

    Seventy three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.

    As a group, America's poor are far from being chronically undernourished. The average consumption of protein, vitamins, and minerals is virtually the same for poor and middle class children and, in most cases, is well above recommended norms. Poor children actually consume more meat than do higher income children and have average protein intakes 100 percent above recommended levels (snip)
    You claimed there is a massive transfer of wealth from the rich to the poor. The reality is, only a small percentage of anyone's income goes towards programs for the poor. In reality, wealthy Americans earn far more today than they have in the past and they also pay less taxes. You love to exaggerate how tough it is for wealthy people and how well off poor people are.

    I'm skeptical about your statistics on the poor. According to the statistics in your link, 100 percent of poor people live in single family homes, apartments, or mobile homes. In reality there are a number of poor people who live in homeless shelters or on the street.

    I personally know a single mother of two whose income is above the poverty level and she can't even afford a place of her own, so she is living with her mother.

    Here's some more statistics on the poor:

    http://www.soundvision.com/Info/poor/statistics.asp

    (snip)
    In 2004, requests for emergency food assistance increased by an average of 14 percent during the year, according to a 27-city study by the United States Conference of Mayors.

    -Also in this study, it was noted that on average, 20 percent of requests for emergency food assistance have gone unmet in 2004.

    -According to the Bread for the World Institute 3.5 percent of U.S. households experience hunger. Some people in these households frequently skip meals or eat too little, sometimes going without food for a whole day. 9.6 million people, including 3 million children, live in these homes.

    -America's Second Harvest (http://www.secondharvest.org/), the nation's largest network of food banks, reports that 23.3 million people turned to the agencies they serve in 2001, an increase of over 2 million since 1997. Forty percent were from working families.

    33 million Americans continue to live in households that did not have an adequate supply of food. Nearly one-third of these households contain adults or children who went hungry at some point in 2000.

    U.S. Dept. of Agriculture, March 2002, "Household Food Security in the United States, 2000"
    (snip)

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    In your view, I'm sure that this is totally unrelated to 5 years worth of post-9/11 GWB tax cuts, no doubt ?
    We also had full employment in the 1990's and 1960's when taxes were much higher, and we didn't run up trillions of dollars in debt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Republicans don't.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...id=bs:archive2


    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post

    tell that to the remaining US General Motors workers who have witnessed the creation of 32,000 new GM jobs in China, 8,000 new GM jobs in Brazil etc. while US GM jobs continue to trickle away. Tell that to a few thousand US Amana / Maytag workers who saw the total elimination of their remaining US manufacturing operations in favor of Mexico and points further south. Tell that to tens of thousands of Silicon Valley workers who have seen their US jobs moved to India and Ireland. The list goes on and on.
    You can find cases like that probably any year, going back to the early 1990's. There was no mass exodus that took place starting 3 years ago.

    Regarding Silicon Valley, this page doesn't have any specific statistics, but here's what one person had to say about the employment situation there:

    http://www.onethirdofmylife.com/one-...lley-jobs.html

    (snip)
    Every time I go to a networking event, be it a technology meetup, a Friday night get-together, a conference, or a lecture, I find myself being asked the same question: "Do you know any good engineers?". These events are swarming with entrepreneurs, investors, and managers, and suddenly they are all desperately short on talent. I usually make a joke about how the 10% unemployment in the area should be making their jobs pretty easy right now, but when I do, other people jump in and agree that finding good engineers is, in fact, a struggle right now. People are looking for all kinds of engineering and design talent, but demand is particularly strong for software developers, especially those with knowledge of AJAX, Ruby, and iPhone development. Just off the top of my head I've had inquiries regarding positions at Arista Networks, Yammer, NotePal, Boomerang Management, and many many more.
    (snip)

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    The point about relocation of manufacturing is that it is happening for two reasons not just one. The initial reason was to avoid high and rising US 'costs of doing business', i.e. lower costs of offshore production making products to re-import into the US market. But the second reason is that, for many multinational corporations, their primary markets / source of profits are now shifting overseas as well. Note that GM now earns far more profits from manufacturing and sales in CHINA than it does in the USA !!! Even the NY Times must concede this fact ...

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/22/bu...auto.html?_r=1
    This doesn't change the fact that the US is still an important market for GM. From your article:

    (snip)
    Analysts said G.M.’s overall prospects still hinge more than anything else on its North American operations being healthy, because that is where it can generate the most income.
    (snip)

    and China is imposing much stricter gas mileage rules:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/28/bu...nt/28fuel.html


    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    As I have posted before, with a few exceptions, the large multinational corporations have 'smartened up' in regard to blunt announcements of large plant closures in the US in favor of new offshore facilities. Instead, they are 'quietly' using every economic 'downturn' to eliminate more US operations and jobs, and when an economic 'upturn' follows capacity is expanded offshore to meet rising demand instead of rehiring US workers and cranking up US operations.

    But there ARE exceptions, i.e. Emerson CEO David Farr ... who makes no bones about the ongoing offshore transition of manufacturing operations.

    (snip)"Emerson Electric Co. (EMR) Chief Executive Officer David Farr said the U.S. government is hurting manufacturers with regulation and taxes and his company will continue to focus on growth overseas.

    Emerson, the maker of electrical equipment and InSinkErator garbage disposals with $20.9 billion in sales for the year ended September, will keep expanding in emerging markets, which represented 32 percent of revenue in 2009.

    About 36 percent of manufacturing is now in “best-cost countries” up from 21 percent in 2003, according to a slides accompanying his speech.

    Farr, in his presentation, also said manufacturers are being hurt by taxes and regulation. He said companies will create jobs in India and China, “places where people want the products and where the governments welcome you to actually do something.”

    Emerson has shed more than 20,000 jobs since the end of 2008 to lower expenses. “What do you think I am going to do?” Farr asked. “I’m not going to hire anybody in the United States. I’m moving. They are doing everything possible to destroy jobs.”"(snip)

    from http://seekingalpha.com/article/1730...-manufacturing

    ^^^ this PERMANENT PARADIGM SHIFT is the reason that US unemployment is not falling, as well as the reason that the US 'middle class' will continue to decline.

    ~
    No, the reason US unemployment isn't falling is because Americans aren't spending money. Why is unemployment falling in Canada and Germany, which have wages similar to the US?

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post

    The 'inconvenient truth' here is that, for the last 60 years or so, the US ... and the US 'working class' in particular ... enjoyed a historically unsustainable high standard of living as the result of American 'empire'. But that 'empire' is rapidly collapsing. Devoid of the additional 'wealth' formerly extracted from other parts of the world as the result of those 'empire' related activities, Americans are now being forced to deal with the issue of living within the means that their own capacity for 'wealth creation' is capable of sustaining.


    ~
    How are other countries, like Canada, Switzerland, and Singapore able to maintain their high standard of living?

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  11. #34
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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    ^^^ we've plowed this ground before.

    Point #1 - Canada, Switzerland, Germany etc. do not tolerate illegal immigrants. They definitely do NOT allow illegal immigrants to receive social services at the expense of their taxpaying citizens

    Point #2 - on a per-capita basis, America's military budget is FAR higher than any of these countries. In essence, these countries depend on Americans to underwrite their national defense.

    Point #3 - thanks to effective school systems, these countries have a relatively low percentage of citizens who are 'unskilled'.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ we've plowed this ground before.

    Point #1 - Canada, Switzerland, Germany etc. do not tolerate illegal immigrants. They definitely do NOT allow illegal immigrants to receive social services at the expense of their taxpaying citizens

    Point #2 - on a per-capita basis, America's military budget is FAR higher than any of these countries. In essence, these countries depend on Americans to underwrite their national defense.

    Point #3 - thanks to effective school systems, these countries have a relatively low percentage of citizens who are 'unskilled'.
    ^^^ Add in the fact that the Swiss have little, if any, immigration period. Canada sets aside 36% of its visas for immigrants with skills that they want. We set aside 6%. We literally train the doctors and engineers and then deny them Green Cards.

    Singapore lacks social and political freedom and does not have anything resembling our social safety net.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    I forgot to add Point #4, which is also relatively important. Canada, Switzerland, and to some extent Germany have far lower average birth (+ legal immigration - legal emigration) rates than the USA. This directly translates into a 2-3% real economic growth rate being able to absorb new job creation requirements for their slowly expanding populations. Because of America's much higher average birth rate, the same 2-3% real economic growth rate would NOT be sufficient to absorb new job creation requirements for our faster expanding population.

    Also, this structural difference is further aggravated by the fact that a significant portion of the US demographic of population growth is occurring among select sub-groups of the population ... leading to a significant portion of US workers newly entering the work force being 'unskilled' as compared to their Canadian or Swiss counterparts.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Again, you're just making things up out of thin air. A few years from now, more Americans will be leaving the work force than entering.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Again, you're just making things up out of thin air. A few years from now, more Americans will be leaving the work force than entering.
    And you think that will be a good thing ; WHY ? It will mean even fewer EARNERS supporting even more retirees. Why do you think Greece is on the verge of collapse ? Why do you think Britain and Germany have tightened their belts ?

    I've learned to laugh at your intellectual M.O., Eagle. Whenever Melonie hits you right between the eyes with a healthy dose of unpleasant reality, you just wave it off and claim she is "making things up " or claim it's just a product of her "ideology". Well, we're going to find out VERY soon who's been right and who's been wrong. If Mel and I are right, 2011 will have sluggish growth and little if any improvement in unemployment. It might even get worse. The tax rates will go up all right but who says the collections will increase ? If economic growth does not increase ( as it did dramatically before, during and after Clinton's tax increases ) revenues will go down and the deficit will increase. George H.W. Bush increased taxes and we stayed in a recession with no serious improvement to the deficit . Why ? Because Congress never held up their end and never came through with the spending cuts it promised. Just like they reneged when Reagan RAISED taxes. Do you seriously think a Dem controlled Congress will CUT spending ? When have they ever ?
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 08-04-2010 at 06:54 AM.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    No, I am simply stating facts. It is a fact that more people will be leaving the work force than entering it. Therefore, even if we have zero percent GDP growth, we will be able to accommodate more young workers entering the workforce. Melonie is wrong. Having more people leaving the work force than entering is a good thing when you have an unemployment rate close to 10%. It means there will be more jobs available for the unemployed.

    You've already been proven wrong. When interest rates were lowered and the money supply was increased close to two years ago, you predicted major inflation. We have zero inflation.

    If we have slow growth in 2011, it doesn't prove anything. There's no proof that your solutions would work any better and could in fact make things worse.
    Last edited by eagle2; 08-03-2010 at 04:08 PM.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    It is a fact that more people will be leaving the work force than entering it.
    Actually, the FACTS of the situation are that more Americans will become officially eligible to start receiving Social Security and medicare benefits, as well as those same Americans becoming eligible to start receiving corporate / gov't employee retirement benefits ... as the result of baby boom demographics. But that fact will have little real world impact if these Americans cannot actually AFFORD to retire, thanks to higher taxes, higher prices, pension benefit cuts, medicare benefit cuts, and of course a lack of / depletion of private 'retirement savings'. Questions about future gov't rule changes regarding means testing of SSI benefits, regarding the future composition of 401k / IRA investments being forced to include US treasury bonds ( and therefore a probable much lower rate of return ) add to the retirement insecurity factor.

    An actual FACT is that a recent Robert Half / SF business times survey found that nearly half of the American workers surveyed plan to postpone retirement ... or specifically that they now plan on continuing work beyond the 'traditional retirement age' !!! If they do this, your contention about the number of older Americans leaving the work force versus number of younger Americans entering the work force simply won't be true !


    When interest rates were lowered and the money supply was increased close to two years ago, you predicted major inflation. We have zero inflation.
    ... according to the same official gov't statistics that told us we had 5%+ economic growth ?!?! Yes we have zero inflation if you don't count food and energy prices ... if you don't count commodity prices ... if you don't count producer prices ... if you don't count falling profit margins for American businesses ... if you overweight falling 'owner equivalent rent' due to ongoing real estate price declines versus rising prices for other 'necessities' etc.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    No, I am simply stating facts. It is a fact that more people will be leaving the work force than entering it. Therefore, even if we have zero percent GDP growth, we will be able to accommodate more young workers entering the workforce. Melonie is wrong. Having more people leaving the work force than entering is a good thing when you have an unemployment rate close to 10%. It means there will be more jobs available for the unemployed.

    You've already been proven wrong. When interest rates were lowered and the money supply was increased close to two years ago, you predicted major inflation. We have zero inflation.

    If we have slow growth in 2011, it doesn't prove anything. There's no proof that your solutions would work any better and could in fact make things worse.
    Says who ? What about all these articles and reports I've been reading that 9 to 10% unemployment will be the new "normal" over the next decade. It WILL be if we continue to repeat Japan's errors and promote a Lost Decade of stagnation.

    Who says there are going to be jobs for these young people ? Haven't you noticed how many corporations are reducing their workforces via attrition and are NOT replacing retirees ? Certainly not on a one to one basis.

    There IS proof that my solution would work and plenty of it. Again you insist on ignoring not just Reagan's tax cuts but also JFK's and CLINTON's. Let's not forget in the hard money, balanced budget days of Eisenhower there were THREE recessions.

    As to the inflationary effects of current fiscal and monetary policy, we have explained to you over and over again that inflation takes years to develop. However, you obviously are ignoring current commodity prices. Oil is over $80 a barrel; gold , copper and other metals are climbing as are agricultural commodities. It takes time for those higher prices to affect wholesale and retail prices; some of which we are already seeing as Melonie has pointed out. For instance, I used less natural gas this billing period than the same time last year and paid MORE. Why ? Natural gas prices have been going UP !

    I've said to you repeatedly that if we somehow manage to dodge a serious inflationary hangover from Bernanke's overflowing monetary punch bowl that it will be a historical first. Conceptually it is POSSIBLE but inter alia you'd need serious OVERPRODUCTION of goods and services to avoid the classic: too much money chasing too few goods and services. WHAT are YOU basing that on ? Other than wishful thinking ? Have you looked at the industrial numbers lately ? Seen signs of a boom in production, have you ? Industrial orders are DOWN ! For two months in a row.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Actually, the FACTS of the situation are that more Americans will become officially eligible to start receiving Social Security and medicare benefits, as well as those same Americans becoming eligible to start receiving corporate / gov't employee retirement benefits ... as the result of baby boom demographics. But that fact will have little real world impact if these Americans cannot actually AFFORD to retire, thanks to higher taxes, higher prices, pension benefit cuts, medicare benefit cuts, and of course a lack of / depletion of private 'retirement savings'. Questions about future gov't rule changes regarding means testing of SSI benefits, regarding the future composition of 401k / IRA investments being forced to include US treasury bonds ( and therefore a probable much lower rate of return ) add to the retirement insecurity factor.

    An actual FACT is that a recent Robert Half / SF business times survey found that nearly half of the American workers surveyed plan to postpone retirement ... or specifically that they now plan on continuing work beyond the 'traditional retirement age' !!! If they do this, your contention about the number of older Americans leaving the work force versus number of younger Americans entering the work force simply won't be true !
    The first baby boomers will be turning 65 in 2011. I doubt many of them will be working in 2020.


    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ... according to the same official gov't statistics that told us we had 5%+ economic growth ?!?! Yes we have zero inflation if you don't count food and energy prices ... if you don't count commodity prices ... if you don't count producer prices ... if you don't count falling profit margins for American businesses ... if you overweight falling 'owner equivalent rent' due to ongoing real estate price declines versus rising prices for other 'necessities' etc.
    Unlike you, I live in the United States. The prices of food and energy have not increased for me at all. Right now, gasoline is probably cheaper than it was 2 years ago. As I posted earlier, food costs fell 2.2% in June, the biggest decline since 2002.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Wholes...&asset=&ccode=
    Last edited by eagle2; 08-04-2010 at 08:26 PM.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Says who ? What about all these articles and reports I've been reading that 9 to 10% unemployment will be the new "normal" over the next decade. It WILL be if we continue to repeat Japan's errors and promote a Lost Decade of stagnation.
    The CBO estimates the unemployment rate will be down to 5.3% by 2014.

    http://www.davemanuel.com/2010/02/21...ext-ten-years/

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Who says there are going to be jobs for these young people ? Haven't you noticed how many corporations are reducing their workforces via attrition and are NOT replacing retirees ? Certainly not on a one to one basis.
    The number of people retiring will increase greatly over the next 10 years. Corporations aren't currently replacing retirees on a one to one basis because demand is down right now. It will eventually go up. For the past few years, before the recession, Americans were overspending. Now they're underspending. Eventually they will start spending more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    There IS proof that my solution would work and plenty of it. Again you insist on ignoring not just Reagan's tax cuts but also JFK's and CLINTON's. Let's not forget in the hard money, balanced budget days of Eisenhower there were THREE recessions.
    You don't seem to understand that tax rates aren't the only thing that affect the economy. There are many other factors. During Reagan's first term, interest rates went from above 20% to around 6%. The price of oil dropped greatly. You want to attribute everything positive to tax cuts, but nothing negative.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    As to the inflationary effects of current fiscal and monetary policy, we have explained to you over and over again that inflation takes years to develop. However, you obviously are ignoring current commodity prices. Oil is over $80 a barrel; gold , copper and other metals are climbing as are agricultural commodities. It takes time for those higher prices to affect wholesale and retail prices; some of which we are already seeing as Melonie has pointed out. For instance, I used less natural gas this billing period than the same time last year and paid MORE. Why ? Natural gas prices have been going UP !
    According to the graph on this page, the price of natural gas is much lower now than it was two years ago.

    http://www.forecasts.org/natural-gas.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    I've said to you repeatedly that if we somehow manage to dodge a serious inflationary hangover from Bernanke's overflowing monetary punch bowl that it will be a historical first. Conceptually it is POSSIBLE but inter alia you'd need serious OVERPRODUCTION of goods and services to avoid the classic: too much money chasing too few goods and services. WHAT are YOU basing that on ? Other than wishful thinking ? Have you looked at the industrial numbers lately ? Seen signs of a boom in production, have you ? Industrial orders are DOWN ! For two months in a row.
    The fact that industrial orders are down makes it less likely that prices will go up. Why would producers increase prices if they're not able to sell everything they can at current prices?

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    The CBO estimates the unemployment rate will be down to 5.3% by 2014.
    yeah well this is the same CBO the estimated the peak of unemployment would be only 8% if congress approved a $787 billion stimulus bill.


    The first baby boomers will be turning 65 in 2011. I doubt many of them will be working in 2020
    again this is a function of whether or not they can actually 'afford' to retire ... given a scenario of National Health Care stripping 1/2 billion dollars from Medicare, a scenario of rising income tax rates applying to their IRA / 401k withdrawls, a scenario of corporate pension plans being shifted to the PBGC ( taxpayer ) with capped payouts, a scenario of rising sales taxes and property taxes, a scenario of rising prices for food and energy due to a devalued US dollar etc. Unfortunately, I think you'll be surprised by the number of baby-boomers who choose to keep working beyond the 'official' retirement age out of financial necessity.


    Unlike you, I live in the United States. The prices of food and energy have not increased for me at all. Right now, gasoline is probably cheaper than it was 2 years ago. As I posted earlier, food costs fell 2.2% in June, the biggest decline since 2002.
    Remember that there is a time lag between wholesale / commodity prices rising or falling and retail prices rising or falling. Yes in some cases businesses have been unable to pass along rising wholesale / commodity prices ... at the expense of their own bottom line and future financial stability. Refined gasoline prices can go up and down with 'local' demand, but the underlying crude oil prices go up and down with the relative exchange rate valuation of the US dollar. Speaking of which Crude Oil is at US$82 ... versus <$50 a year ago.


    Why would producers increase prices if they're not able to sell everything they can at current prices?
    ummm ... to avoid losing money on every item they sell at current prices due to rising commodity / raw material / energy costs ?
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-05-2010 at 08:36 AM.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    The CBO estimates the unemployment rate will be down to 5.3% by 2014.

    http://www.davemanuel.com/2010/02/21...ext-ten-years/



    The number of people retiring will increase greatly over the next 10 years. Corporations aren't currently replacing retirees on a one to one basis because demand is down right now. It will eventually go up. For the past few years, before the recession, Americans were overspending. Now they're underspending. Eventually they will start spending more.



    You don't seem to understand that tax rates aren't the only thing that affect the economy. There are many other factors. During Reagan's first term, interest rates went from above 20% to around 6%. The price of oil dropped greatly. You want to attribute everything positive to tax cuts, but nothing negative.




    According to the graph on this page, the price of natural gas is much lower now than it was two years ago.

    http://www.forecasts.org/natural-gas.htm



    The fact that industrial orders are down makes it less likely that prices will go up. Why would producers increase prices if they're not able to sell everything they can at current prices?
    Since when did the CBO become the "Great Oracle" whose predictions are reliable ?

    You may be right but NOT if we continue to go the way of Japan and the PIGS.

    There is NOTHING negative about tax cuts. That's right, NOTHING. I watched Rachel Madcow the other night with her bullshit chart trying to extrapolate budget deficits to tax cuts. What the dumb bitch forgot to include was SPENDING. The fact remains that JFK's, Reagan's and Bush the Dumbers's tax cuts resulted in INCREASED revenues; even adjusted for inflation. We did not get surpluses under Clinton until AFTER he cut Capital Gains and business taxes. And spending was under control. Deficits under Reagan went up thanks to the Recesssion of 1981 but started going down as the economy recovered and revenues went UP. By the end of his second term, they had almoist doubled. Higher rates, especially on the highest earners do NOT result in higher revenues. Not from them. They have armies of accountants, tax lawyers and wealth managers who SHELTER their wealth and income from higher taxes. Look at Kerry with his yacht. He berthed it in Rhode Island to avoid a $500,000 tax bill. Even with all of Theresa's hundreds of millions.

    I was comparing my gas bill THIS year to LAST year; not two years ago. Two years ago, ALL energy prices were at record highs.

    I think you completely missed my point. Inflation is too much money chasing too few goods causing prices to go UP. A way to avoid it with loose money is OVERPRODUCTION so that while you may have too much money you also have too many goods. I pointed out to you that there is NO sign of any such overproduction. None. Zero. Zip. Nada.

    Btw, new unemployment claims went UP again this week for the second week in a row. Another sign of recovery ?
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 08-09-2010 at 12:01 PM.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    yeah well this is the same CBO the estimated the peak of unemployment would be only 8% if congress approved a $787 billion stimulus bill.

    It's a lot more accurate than the predictions you posted, of food shortages, riots, bankruptcy of GM and Chrysler, US government defaulting on bond payments, all of which were predicted to take place this year and last.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Since when did the CBO become the "Great Oracle" whose predictions are reliable ?
    I didn't say they were. You were saying all these reports were predicting 10% unemployment will be the new norm. I was giving an example of one that wasn't making that prediction. Most mainstream economists I've heard, say the unemployment rate will eventually go back down, but not for a few years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    There is NOTHING negative about tax cuts. That's right, NOTHING. I watched Rachel Madcow the other night with her bullshit chart trying to extrapolate budget deficits to tax cuts. What the dumb bitch forgot to include was SPENDING.
    Why do you make such hateful comments about a commentator just because you disagree with her?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    The fact remains that JFK's, Reagan's and Bush the Dumbers's tax cuts resulted in INCREASED revenues; even adjusted for inflation.
    You are making faulty comparisons. You are comparing tax revenue from one year to another, before and after tax cuts. Tax revenue normally increases from one year to the next. Just because revenue increased after taxes were cut, doesn't mean revenue wouldn't have increased more without them. The fact is, when adjusted for inflation and population growth, tax revenue increased more from 1972 - 1980, than it did during the Reagan Administration, and far more from 1992 - 2000.

    From 1980 - 1988, tax revenue per capita increased 19%, adjusted for inflation. From 1972 - 1980, tax revenue per capita increased 24%, and from 1992 - 2000, tax revenue per capita increased 41%.

    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/200...n-and-revenue/

    If you dispute these figures, then please provide references that contradict them. Calling the author names doesn't prove anything.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    We did not get surpluses under Clinton until AFTER he cut Capital Gains and business taxes.
    No, the Federal budget was balanced before taxes were cut.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Higher rates, especially on the highest earners do NOT result in higher revenues. Not from them. They have armies of accountants, tax lawyers and welath managers who SHELTER their wealth and income from higher taxes. Look at Kerry with his yacht. He berthed it in Rhode Island to avoid a $500,000 tax bill. Even with all of Theresa's hundreds of millions.
    I read that in the 1950's the wealthiest Americans were paying approximately 50% of their income in taxes, while today the wealthiest Americans are paying approximately 24% of their income in taxes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Btw, new unemployment claims went UP again this week for the second week in a row. Another sign of recovery ?
    As I've said before, we're going through the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression and it's going to take years to fully recover.
    Last edited by eagle2; 08-06-2010 at 12:32 AM.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    yeah well this is the same CBO the estimated the peak of unemployment would be only 8% if congress approved a $787 billion stimulus bill.
    It is recognized that the 787B$ was too little, considering the real magnitude of Bush's financial meltdown. I'm guessing that no one wanted to see the real extend of what they had just done. (sort of like BP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    again this is a function of whether or not they can actually 'afford' to retire ... Unfortunately, I think you'll be surprised by the number of baby-boomers who choose to keep working beyond the 'official' retirement age out of financial necessity.
    Agreed here! But that may not be bad, since the youngest people entering the workforce have such a huge sense of self-entitlement, they will not become good workers for a few years of hard knocks and maybe a few weeks under the supervision of the Drug/Alcohol Abuse Courts. Sad to say....

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Remember that there is a time lag between wholesale / commodity prices rising or falling and retail prices rising or falling. Yes in some cases businesses have been unable to pass along rising wholesale / commodity prices ... at the expense of their own bottom line and future financial stability. Refined gasoline prices can go up and down with 'local' demand, but the underlying crude oil prices go up and down with the relative exchange rate valuation of the US dollar. Speaking of which Crude Oil is at US$82 ... versus <$50 a year ago.
    There is no or very little time lag in the oil industry.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    ...
    The fact is, when adjusted for inflation and population growth, tax revenue increased more from 1972 - 1980, than it did during the Reagan Administration, and far more from 1992 - 2000.

    From 1980 - 1988, tax revenue per capita increased 19%, adjusted for inflation. From 1972 - 1980, tax revenue per capita increased 24%, and from 1992 - 2000, tax revenue per capita increased 41%.
    ....

    No, the Federal budget was balanced before taxes were cut.
    More on recent spending....

    MR. KRAUTHAMMER: Bernanke had an interesting thing to say. He was on Capitol Hill this week and he said, even though we obviously have to get the long-term budget in control, he said he would be against spending cuts or tax increases right now which is sort of where the president is. But I think it’s going to put pressure on Democrats as the year ends to extend perhaps Bush cuts at least for a year or two, at least it’s coming from the Federal Reserve.

    MR. PETERSON: Well, some Democratic senators agree.

    MR. SHIELDS: Charles is wrong on this. Tim Geithner at breakfast yesterday with a reporter said there’s no way in the world that the tax breaks for the richest, those over $250,000 are going to be extended. That’s number one. The second fact is that we’re talking – you ask where the money is coming from. We’re talking about a cost of the George Bush tax cuts of $2.3 trillion to the Treasury. That means – quite frankly, that’s the cost of healthcare and that’s the cost of the bailout. So if you’re really talking about doing something about fiscal sanity – and I would point out that Alan Greenspan, who actually was the enabler of the original tax cuts, has called for their total repeal.

    From “INSIDE WASHINGTON” transcript....
    BROADCAST DATE:
    SUNDAY, JULY 25, 2010 (on public tv)
    WJLA TV PANEL:
    CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST;
    COLBY KING, WASHINGTON POST;
    MARK SHIELDS, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST;
    NINA TOTENBERG, NATIONAL PUBLIC RADIO
    emphasis mine
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking


    In your view, I'm sure that this is totally unrelated to 5 years worth of post-9/11 GWB tax cuts, no doubt ?




    Speaking of tax cuts, read my most recent posts in this thread. I'll bet this picture is from the first day this sign appeared, and now it is full of shotgun holes and deservedly so. What a disaster his administration foisted on this country; it will take at least till the end of the decade to recover from it.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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