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Thread: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    I didn't say they were. You were saying all these reports were predicting 10% unemployment will be the new norm. I was giving an example of one that wasn't making that prediction. Most mainstream economists I've heard, say the unemployment rate will eventually go back down, but not for a few years.


    Why do you make such hateful comments about a commentator just because you disagree with her?



    You are making faulty comparisons. You are comparing tax revenue from one year to another, before and after tax cuts. Tax revenue normally increases from one year to the next. Just because revenue increased after taxes were cut, doesn't mean revenue wouldn't have increased more without them. The fact is, when adjusted for inflation and population growth, tax revenue increased more from 1972 - 1980, than it did during the Reagan Administration, and far more from 1992 - 2000.

    From 1980 - 1988, tax revenue per capita increased 19%, adjusted for inflation. From 1972 - 1980, tax revenue per capita increased 24%, and from 1992 - 2000, tax revenue per capita increased 41%.

    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/200...n-and-revenue/

    If you dispute these figures, then please provide references that contradict them. Calling the author names doesn't prove anything.



    No, the Federal budget was balanced before taxes were cut.




    I read that in the 1950's the wealthiest Americans were paying approximately 50% of their income in taxes, while today the wealthiest Americans are paying approximately 24% of their income in taxes.



    As I've said before, we're going through the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression and it's going to take years to fully recover.
    Read what you just posted :"The uneemployment rate will EVENTUALLY go down but Not for a few years". Unlike every other recession we've had.

    Rachel Madcow is as vicious and factually challenged as they come. As is Ann Coulter for that matter. She is no more entitled to her own set of facts as you, me or anyone else. She specializes in factually delinquent personal attacks. I am obviously not alone in my distaste for her style and methods. Her ratings indicate that nobody else likes her either.

    Just to prove that my disgust is NOT based on ideology, I have a lot more respect for economists like Robert Reich and Jared Bernstein than I do for a little asswipe like Krugman or a bitch like Madcow. They do NOT try to have their own numbers like Krugman does. They do not launch personal attacks at people they disagree with like Krugman and Madcow. I have just as much disgust for a right wing factually challenged bitch like Ann Coulter and Sarah Palin is an ignorant ditz afaic.

    Whether you like them or not, the numbers are there for everyone to read. When Reagan left office, tax revenue had almost DOUBLED. In 2006, we had record tax revenues. Likewise, we had budget SURPLUSES AFTER Clinton cut taxes. After he cut taxes revenues went UP ! Btw, Krugman has been caught using faulty numbers and data so many times that even his Nobel Prize is screaming at his intellectual dishonesty. Be VERY careful using any facts or figures from anything he is remotely asssociated with.

    As I pointed out, in the 1950's we had a top marginal tax rate of 91%. We also had three recessions. Our rich were less wealthy then than now. It is also instructive to distinguish between the wealthy and EARNERS. The wealthy have wealth. Earners create it. Nonetheless, I have repeatedly agreed with you that BOTH the wealthy and the highest earners do NOT pay their fair share of taxes. Even though the highest earners pay 50% of the income tax. That's why I oppose perpetual trusts that shelter wealth from taxation literally into perpetuity. That's why I want a flat tax with no deductions and no credits. The main reason I want a flat tax has nothing to do with fairness or class envy. It is to promote rational allocations of wealth and money and thus generate economic growth. Without shelters, everyone has an incentive to maximize earnings. If I make $100,000 and pay 30% after an exemption of $30,000 and you make $1 million and pay 30% after the same exemption, who is paying more in taxes ? Who is actually paying a higher percentage of his income ? You are. In both cases. I'm paying $21,000 and you are paying $291,000. On both a gross and percentage basis you are paying more.

    As I've repeatedly pointed out, that is NOT what we have now. I, and many other six figure earners, pay a much higher percentage of our income than the uber-rich. There are children and grandchildren of the uber wealthy who have NEVER worked a day in their lives and never will, yet have seven figure lifestyles on which they pay no taxes except for sales and real estate levies. I know, I used to work protecting them as they limo'd and clubbed around NYC. Fortunately, some enjoyed spending Daddy and Grandpa's money ( and Mommy and Grandma's too ) in places like PEC and Scores but I digress. Wouldn't you like to see them have to pay a reasonable portion of their income in taxes ? Do you have any idea how many trillions, yes TRILLIONS, are sheltered in perpetual trusts ? On top of everything else, these trusts are not economically healthy. The whole point of the Rule Against Perpetuities was to promote buying and selling of property, by assuring and REQUIRING that at some point, somebody would be able to sell. Sales which, inter alia, could be taxed. Not anymore. Starting in the 1980's, states started competing with each other to get perpetual trust wealth and business by abolishing their respective Rules against Perpetuities. It also avoids estate taxes which as you know, I support.

    We didn't recover from 1929 and in fact had a double dip in 1933 and a triple dip in 1938 thanks to GOVERNMENT policy. As I have repeatedly explained. We recovered from the 1981-2 recession thanks to Reagan's tax cuts.. We are NOT recovering now thanks to Obama's policies. It's much too far along for him or you to try to blame it all on Bush.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 08-09-2010 at 01:02 PM.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    It's much too far along for him or you to try to blame it all on Bush


    It's never too late to 'try'. However, it remains to be seen whether or not the GWB legacy can successfully be blamed for (snip)""The policies that crashed the economy, that undercut the middle class, that mortgaged our future, do we really want to go back to that, or do we keep moving our country forward?" Obama said at another fund-raising event in Austin, referring to Bush's eight years as president."(snip)

    As with many recent Dollar Den threads, I suspect the real issue will not involve actual economic facts, but instead will involve successfully 'selling' a particular 'spin'. It will then fall to registered voters to figure out ( or not ) that the 'spin' and the actual economic facts seriously diverge !!!


    I, and many other six figure earners, pay a much higher percentage of our income than the uber-rich.

    There are children and grandchildren of the uber wealthy who have NEVER worked a day in their lives and never will, yet have seven figure lifestyles on which they pay no taxes except for sales and real estate levies

    Do you have any idea how many trillions, yes TRILLIONS, are sheltered in perpetual trusts ?
    This is of course the 'dirty little secret' of the 'uber-rich' versus gov't calls for increasing official tax rates on the 'rich'. In the real world, the 'uber-rich' have a multitude of options open to them to legally avoid having to pay tax rates that are anywhere near the official gov't tax rates. Trusts are merely one of a long list of options, which also include tax free municipal bonds, production tax credits for 'green energy' business partnerships, the ever-famous offshore bank accounts ( although they may have lost Switzerland there are still a bunch of other countries that offer 'anonymous' banking ), etc.

    In general, the 'middle class' do not have access to these legal tax avoidance strategies because the 'minimum buy-in' prices are set too high - i.e. $50k / $100k per muni bond, $1 million+ for a green energy partnership slice, the cost of foreign travel to access 'anonymous' foreign bank accounts, etc. Therefore, in the real world, a call to increase taxes on the 'rich' really translates into the majority of those tax increases avoiding the 'uber-rich' and falling squarely on the upper 'middle class'.

    ... which brings us back to the original topic of this thread !

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-10-2010 at 12:41 AM.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0910217920100809

    It's never too late to 'try'. However, it remains to be seen whether or not the GWB legacy can successfully be blamed for (snip)""The policies that crashed the economy, that undercut the middle class, that mortgaged our future, do we really want to go back to that, or do we keep moving our country forward?" Obama said at another fund-raising event in Austin, referring to Bush's eight years as president."(snip)

    As with many recent Dollar Den threads, I suspect the real issue will not involve actual economic facts, but instead will involve successfully 'selling' a particular 'spin'. It will then fall to registered voters to figure out ( or not ) that the 'spin' and the actual economic facts seriously diverge !!!




    This is of course the 'dirty little secret' of the 'uber-rich' versus gov't calls for increasing official tax rates on the 'rich'. In the real world, the 'uber-rich' have a multitude of options open to them to legally avoid having to pay tax rates that are anywhere near the official gov't tax rates. Trusts are merely one of a long list of options, which also include tax free municipal bonds, production tax credits for 'green energy' business partnerships, the ever-famous offshore bank accounts ( although they may have lost Switzerland there are still a bunch of other countries that offer 'anonymous' banking ), etc.

    In general, the 'middle class' do not have access to these legal tax avoidance strategies because the 'minimum buy-in' prices are set too high - i.e. $50k / $100k per muni bond, $1 million+ for a green energy partnership slice, the cost of foreign travel to access 'anonymous' foreign bank accounts, etc. Therefore, in the real world, a call to increase taxes on the 'rich' really translates into the majority of those tax increases avoiding the 'uber-rich' and falling squarely on the upper 'middle class'.

    ... which brings us back to the original topic of this thread !

    ~
    Number 1, the polls make it clear that the American people are not buying the "Blame it all on Bush" bullshit.

    Number 2 , funny you should mention "green energy partnerships" which coincides with the middle class subsidizing the rich in purchasing the Chevy Volt. A recent analysis by Deloitte Consulting of the electric-gas hybrid Chevy Volt aka the "Voltswagen" makes a number of very disturbing and troubling points:

    1. It retails for $41,000. About two thirds of what the average American makes in a year

    2. Affluent hipsters are being targeted by Government Motors as the prime market for this lemon. Deloitte says that the demand for such cars is from young, high income individuals who do NOT need passenger room for a family. They make over $200,000 per year. Deloitte notes this is why GM is rolling out the Volt in upscale, trendy urban markets.

    3. To help this more affluent market get over any sticker shock for a car that gets a whopping 40 miles to the charge i.e. mpc; the Feds are giving them a subsidy of $7500. Middle class Californians get to pay even more as there is a state subsidy too.

    4. According to Kenneth Green, an environmental scientist at the A.E.I., the Voltswagen is a "vanity car for the well off subsidized by the less well off".

    5. It retails for $41,000 BUT it actually costs MORE. Government Motors is selling at a LOSS ! Depending on whose numbers you prefer, it actually costs as much as $81,000 a vehicle.

    6. Supporters claim subsidies are necessary because electric cars are in their "infancy". Um, actually they have been around for about 100 years. They weren't practical then and certainly are not now.

    7. Most damning of all, electric cars will increase the burning of coal. Huh ? WHAT ? ! ? ! That's right. The electricity necessary to recharge the Volt (btw, said recharging takes longer than the Volt can operate on a single charge ) has to come from somewhere. In the U.S. that means burning more coal. If China ever seriously pushed electric cars, it would be twenty times worse.

    Obama has essentially taken taxpayer money and spent it on toys for upscale urban Libs. One of his two remaining bases of political support. Effectivley we have the middle class subsidizing the upper class so it can feel better about itself.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    I agree on everything except additional US coal fired generation. Yes more electricity will need to be generated but it won't be from coal. The reason for this is that, according to one of the gentlemen who invited me to cruise around the caye on his yacht for a few days - and who is also 'well connected' in the US coal industry, the EPA has just received court approval to enact 'downwind pollution' restrictions on US power plants EVEN IF THEY ARE CURRENTLY OPERATING WITHIN THEIR STACK PERMIT LIMITS. It seems that if the total amount of airborne pollution being blown into say New York from the Midwest states makes it impossible for New York to meet air quality standards, those Midwest power plants will now be forced to reduce emissions.

    The gentleman in question is actually prepared to 'pull the plug' in protest at the point where these new EPA regulations require a billion dollar investment in additional power plant stack scrubbers for a coal fired power plant to keep operating, and so are many of his proteges in the coal fired power industry. It will then fall to the gov't to try and pull a few million megawatts out of their a$$. However, like California, he is somewhat afraid that this could start a new trend toward greatly increased electricity imports from ( filthy ) Mexican power plants !

    Time to go long on natural gas !!!


    You also raised a specific reference to 'internal cost shifting' by GM to provide 'stealth' subsidies for the Chevy Volt ... specifically that the actual production cost per vehicle was in the $80,000 ballpark. I had already heard that cost shifting was taking place re expected Volt warrantee claims ( i.e. throwing a $10,000+ battery replacement against GM's general warrantee repairs budget versus < $1,000 average warrantee claim per gas engine vehicle ), but hadn't heard anything specific in regard to cost shifting of up-front production costs. Are there any more details available ?

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-10-2010 at 01:50 PM.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    I agree on everything except additional US coal fired generation. Yes more electricity will need to be generated but it won't be from coal. The reason for this is that, according to one of the gentlemen who invited me to cruise around the caye on his yacht for a few days - and who is also 'well connected' in the US coal industry, the EPA has just received court approval to enact 'downwind pollution' restrictions on US power plants EVEN IF THEY ARE CURRENTLY OPERATING WITHIN THEIR STACK PERMIT LIMITS. It seems that if the total amount of airborne pollution being blown into say New York from the Midwest states makes it impossible for New York to meet air quality standards, those Midwest power plants will now be forced to reduce emissions.

    The gentleman in question is actually prepared to 'pull the plug' in protest at the point where these new EPA regulations require a billion dollar investment in additional power plant stack scrubbers for a coal fired power plant to keep operating, and so are many of his proteges in the coal fired power industry. It will then fall to the gov't to try and pull a few million megawatts out of their a$$. However, like California, he is somewhat afraid that this could start a new trend toward greatly increased electricity imports from ( filthy ) Mexican power plants !

    Time to go long on natural gas !!!


    You also raised a specific reference to 'internal cost shifting' by GM to provide 'stealth' subsidies for the Chevy Volt ... specifically that the actual production cost per vehicle was in the $80,000 ballpark. I had already heard that cost shifting was taking place re expected Volt warrantee claims ( i.e. throwing a $10,000+ battery replacement against GM's general warrantee repairs budget versus < $1,000 average warrantee claim per gas engine vehicle ), but hadn't heard anything specific in regard to cost shifting of up-front production costs. Are there any more details available ?

    ~
    Here ya go Mel :

    Ron Gettelfinger, head of the UAW publicly said that GM is selling the Volt at a HUGE loss.

    The battery pack alone costs GM $10,000. The special lights, wipers, radio and other electrically operated accessories on the Voltswagen all had to be retooled to be as low voltage as possible so as to avoid draining the battery pack while driving. At significant cost, of course.

    Btw, GM predicts a 10 year battery life ( ALL batteries wear out eventually ) based on TWO years of testing !!!

    GM received $400 million in Federal subsidies for R & D specifically for the Volt as part of the Auto Bailout.

    The tawdry details are on doczero.org ; hotair.com and thelonelyconservative.com.

    The bottom line is that the Voltswagen is a car without a market. The Toyota Prius and Nissan Leaf experiences prove that overwhelmingly, Americans do NOT want cars that get 40 miles to the charge. Or take more time to recharge than they can go before the battery runs down. Without a hard shove from it s owner ( Obama ) GM would NEVER have sunk serious money into this piece of junk. It's their 2010 version of the VEGA !

    If anybody at Government Motors really had any brains they'd be busy retooling cars and trucks to run on natural gas and putting their R & D money into the REAL future for cars i.e. HYDROGEN.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 08-11-2010 at 07:44 AM.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    It's much too far along for him or you to try to blame it all on Bush.
    Nest time you in a relay race and you team-mate just before you decides to walk, rather than run, I'll bet you won't take all the blame either for losing the race.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    Nest time you in a relay race and you team-mate just before you decides to walk, rather than run, I'll bet you won't take all the blame either for losing the race.
    Reagan was stuck presiding over the worst recession since 1937-8. He didn't spend his time trying to blame it all on Carter. JFK didn't bother blaming Eisenhower. Even Clinton didn't waste a lot of time blaming Bush The Smarter.

    The fact is that Obama has proven that government spending does not generate economic growth and it does NOT create private sector jobs. This recession has resulted in a jobless recovery with anemic economic growth. Typical recoveries consist of AT LEAST 4% economic growth and net new job creation. Obama and the Dems are about to let taxes go up in the midst of a recession. That didn't work for Hoover or FDR. and Clinton's tax increase took effect AFTER we had already emerged from a shallow and short recession.

    Non financial corporations have some $1.8 Trillion in cash that they are NOT spending. WHY SHOULD THEY ?
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-16-2010 at 08:41 AM.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Non financial corporations have some $1.8 Trillion in cash that they are NOT spending. WHY SHOULD THEY ?
    Actually, this speaks directly to the original topic of this thread i.e. a 'shrinking' middle class equates to a shrinking pool of discretionary dollars that can be spent on products and services provided by these non-financial US corporations. Therefore there is essentially zero motivation for these non-financial US corporations to invest their 'cash' to modernize / increase US production capacity ( with associated job growth ) in an environment of expected falling future demand. Instead, if there IS any increase in demand, and regardless of whether that potential increase in demand occurs within the US ( doubtful ) or in 3rd world countries ( probable ), it will be met by expanding production at the US corporations' much lower production cost offshore subsidiaries.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Nest time you in a relay race and you team-mate just before you decides to walk, rather than run, I'll bet you won't take all the blame either for losing the race.
    For better or worse this analogy is irrelevant ... because we're not talking about the US being a country where the president is always able to implement his preferred policies. This of course plays both ways i.e. Clinton vs a republican congressional majority in the mid 90's, and GWB versus democratic majorities after the 2006 election. On the economic side, one of the very first things that the new democratic congress did after the 2006 election was to implement ethanol mandates which quickly resulted in increased prices for both food and gasoline - over GWB's objections. Arguably, the resulting rising food and energy prices subtracted from disposable incomes and contributed significantly to the following situation where it became impossible for some number of heavily indebted suburban Americans to service their pre-existing debt. Arguably, this in turn led to reduced consumer spending, to the 'house of cards' of subprime loans turning towards default, thus the bankruptcy of Lehman Bro's etc.

    Yes these little details matter - but they are easily forgotten !

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Reagan was stuck presiding over the worst recession since 1937-8. He didn't spend his time trying to blame it all on Carter. JFK didn't bother blaming Eisenhower. Even Clinton didn't waste a lot of time blaming Bush The Smarter.
    Reagan didn't have the collapse of the entire financial system to contend with either. It was so recent that I'm amazed people seem to forget how uncertain things were and pontificate. When Obama came in it was a crapshoot if the economy and even the country could survive the mess. Just not having a complete collapse in my opinion is a worthy accomplishment. Reagan also didn't have a 24 news cycle and rapid enemies who try to make him look bad at every single thing he does nor did Reagan have a large part of the government that was working their hardest to make him and the country fail so they could regain power.

    The fact is that Obama has proven that government spending does not generate economic growth and it does NOT create private sector jobs. This recession has resulted in a jobless recovery with anemic economic growth. Typical recoveries consist of AT LEAST 4% economic growth and net new job creation. Obama and the Dems are about to let taxes go up in the midst of a recession. That didn't work for Hoover or FDR. and Clinton's tax increase took effect AFTER we had already emerged from a shallow and short recession..
    Once again we were and actually still are in "emergency mode" Obama did not want to have all the spending that he's doing, he's said that many times but the alternatives of having the financial world crash seemed much worse. If we spend too much we know what happens, if the whole financial world crashes and the huge companies aren't rescued- we don't know what happens. I would choose his course of action as well.

    Lastly, he has to blame Bush as it WAS Bush who caused this mess, and in the age of "new media" where any internet blow-hard can pass opinion off as fact and media outlets have become entertainment/propoganda machines stuff like that has to be pointed out an American public that is gullible to the point of embarrassment.

    Just one question for you guys- After 8 years of Bush and tax cuts and money going to the top etc.- How many jobs were created?

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by jimboe7373 View Post
    Reagan didn't have the collapse of the entire financial system to contend with either. It was so recent that I'm amazed people seem to forget how uncertain things were and pontificate. When Obama came in it was a crapshoot if the economy and even the country could survive the mess. Just not having a complete collapse in my opinion is a worthy accomplishment. Reagan also didn't have a 24 news cycle and rapid enemies who try to make him look bad at every single thing he does nor did Reagan have a large part of the government that was working their hardest to make him and the country fail so they could regain power.

    Once again we were and actually still are in "emergency mode" Obama did not want to have all the spending that he's doing, he's said that many times but the alternatives of having the financial world crash seemed much worse. If we spend too much we know what happens, if the whole financial world crashes and the huge companies aren't rescued- we don't know what happens. I would choose his course of action as well.

    Lastly, he has to blame Bush as it WAS Bush who caused this mess, and in the age of "new media" where any internet blow-hard can pass opinion off as fact and media outlets have become entertainment/propoganda machines stuff like that has to be pointed out an American public that is gullible to the point of embarrassment.

    Just one question for you guys- After 8 years of Bush and tax cuts and money going to the top etc.- How many jobs were created?
    I don't know if you were around when Reagan was President. I was. The liberal press savaged him on a daily basis. There was no Fox News or Rush Limbaugh back then. Reagan had to deal with double digit interest rates; double digit inflation and double digit unemployment.

    I'm tired of hearing about how Obama rescued us from a financial crisis. Afaic he did diddly squat ! The TARP bailout engineered by Paulson to bail out his Wall St. buddies was in place BEFORE Obama became President. So were the takeovers of Fannie and Freddie. Obama did take over GM and Chrysler. So what ? The jury is still out on whether one or both will survive.

    Obama doesn't need anyone's help to "look bad". He's doing just fine all by himself. Who let Michelle go to Spain on the public dime ? Who couldn't piss or get off the pot with regard to the BP Gulf mess ? Who criticizes his own country at every opportunity ? Who has appointed left wing nuts like Van Jones ? Despite a VERY friendly and supportive press, his poll numbers are way down. On merit. What has he accomplished ? What has he generated besides doubt and uncertainty ?

    Who controls the entire Executive Branch ? Obama. Who controls Congress ? Obama's party, the Dems. So who are you referring to when you say: " a large part of the government is working its hardest to see him and the government fail " ? WHO ?

    How did Bush cause this mess ? How did he promote sub-prime loans ? Every time he tried to rein in Fannie and Freddie, Barney Fwank and Chris "Friend of Angelo" Dodd stopped him. Did his SEC appointee do his job ? NO. Neither did the Fed. We've gone over this countless times. There is plenty of blame to go around but Bush only gets part of it. The Dems in Congress and the Wall Street banks bear a large part of the responsibility. Who signed the repeal of Glass Steagall ?
    It wasn't Bush. It was CLINTON.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    also, to answer your question about jobs creation ...



    as the chart shows, GWB averaged about 1.5% positive jobs creation over his two terms ... about the same as LBJ and Eisenhower. JFK's job growth rate was actually the lowest in recent years - until president Obama took office anyhow.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    ^^^^^ the post before the previous one:

    OMG! this is bizarro world- I can't even comment. I'm out of here.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    ...I'm tired of hearing about how Obama rescued us from a financial crisis. Afaic he did diddly squat ! The TARP bailout engineered by Paulson to bail out his Wall St. buddies was in place BEFORE Obama became President. So were the takeovers of Fannie and Freddie. Obama did take over GM and Chrysler. So what ? The jury is still out on whether one or both will survive.
    How quickly you forget the obvious. The US was in financial free-fall when Obama was sworn in. A lot more than TARP and GM and Fannie anbd Freddie was required to stop the Bush disaster. Why dont you stoip reading your past posts and get info from another source? A reliable one this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Obama doesn't need anyone's help to "look bad". He's doing just fine all by himself. Who let Michelle go to Spain on the public dime ?...
    This is the kind of BS crap that goes on in the conservative press just 6to get back in power. They and you seem to have great desperation to take very minor things aqnd blow them up to discredit anyone who is not in their political party.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    How did Bush cause this mess ? ... We've gone over this countless times.
    DE-REGULATION and a strong preference for INCOME SHIFTING from the middle class to the rich. Plus under Bush's tutelage the sub-prime loan market was greatly increased so that the finhancial industry could profit more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    There is plenty of blame to go around but Bush only gets part of it. The Dems in Congress and the Wall Street banks bear a large part of the responsibility. Who signed the repeal of Glass Steagall ?
    It wasn't Bush. It was CLINTON.
    The repeal of Glass Steagall was a huge mistake, but Reagan made banking industry mistakes too. You forgot the US consumers that reached deeper than their pockets. The Wall Street banks and the mortgage marketeers were greatly encouraged by Bush's and Greenspan's fiscal policies. At one time I thought it was amazing (and amusing) how one-sidedly you see things. But now I just see boring stubbornness, purposeful oversight, and blind refusal to accept information that refutes your ideology.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    also, to answer your question about jobs creation ...

    as the chart shows, GWB averaged about 1.5% positive jobs creation over his two terms ... about the same as LBJ and Eisenhower. JFK's job growth rate was actually the lowest in recent years - until president Obama took office anyhow.
    But that last year, where the rate of growth stopped and actually became negative subsequently, is the most telling part of Bush's failed presidency. No one else had that bad of a record. and at a time when globalization, one failed war, and one completely unnecessary war were already having deleterious effects on the US economy. (This is why I will always regard Bush the lesser as a failed President, likely the worst we've ever had. and also likely the worst communicator we've had.)

    It has most certainly had an enormous effect of discretionary spending and the relevant industry of this site.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    But that last year, where the rate of growth stopped and actually became negative subsequently, is the most telling part of Bush's failed presidency
    Of course the veto-proof democratic majorities that took control of both houses of congress after the 2006 election had absolutely nothing to do with that negative rate of growth ?

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    The Democrat majorities were never veto-proof, or even close to it.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    The Democrat majorities were never veto-proof, or even close to it.
    Further, they became majorities when people realized that the Bush presidency was actually doing severe damage to the US. Finally! But still too late for the middle class.
    Last edited by threlayer; 08-17-2010 at 07:46 AM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by jimboe7373 View Post
    ^^^^^ the post before the previous one:

    OMG! this is bizarro world- I can't even comment. I'm out of here.
    You'll be back.

  21. #70
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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Let's judge Iman Obama just on HIS record, shall we ? What was unemployment when Obama swore on the Koran ( oops, sorry, getting a little carried away with the "Mosque Mess" HE injected himself into. I know he used a Bible, he was born in this country; he's not a Muslim ) and took the oath of office ? 7.7 % Now it is 9.5% after hitting a high of 10.1 %.

    How many jobs have been lost since January, 2009 ? 3.3 million.

    How much has the National Debt increased on his watch ? $2.5 Trillion.

    How many jobs were created by the Porkulus Bill ? NONE.

    How many homeowners have lost their homes since he took office ? Millions.

    How much is the takeover of Fannie and Freddie costing us ? $291 billion last year and at least $ 98 billion more to come. Both are exempt from the new Finreg Bill btw. Are any of the loan modification programs working ? Not really. 1.24 million enrolled ; 520,000 dropped out and only 398,000 got permanently modified loans. And those are iffy as the redefault rate has climbed from 3.5 % to 7.7% and is now at 14.9 %. Industry experts say about 60% will eventually re-default. Why ? Because Obama let history repeat itself and let Fannie and Freddie give out bonuses of up to 20% of their salaries to execs who produced enough trial modifications, even if few ever became permanent. The top 12 execs got $42 million in bonuses alone. The two CEO's got $6 million each. For GSE's that LOST money !

    Next year, EVERYONE's taxes are going to go up. Drug companies,health plans and medical device manufacturers will all be charging more as they pass along higher taxes to their customers. Medicare taxes are going up for some workers as are taxes for some investors.
    Individuals, families and employers who can't afford health insurance wil be taxed instead.
    Obama is even proposing to tax charitable contributions for high income donors . Who seriously contends that our economy is going to be helped by taking MORE money out of consumers' pockets ? Consumers whose resumption of spending is still being waited for.

    We've become "Bail Out Nation" under Obama and he and the Dems are just getting warmed up. We had the bank bailout ; the auto bailout; public employee bailout ; teacher bailout and now we've got not one but two Union pension plans trotting up to Washington hat in hand. The Teamsters and the NEA. Both their pension plans are broke and both want bailouts. Last year the NEA collected $377 million in dues and agency fees of which it doled out $50 million in campaign contributions in a NON- Election year. The Teamsters collected $187 million last year. With their decade long history of crime and corruption including outright looting of their pension funds, they have the gall to seek a bailout ? Um. Yeah.

  22. #71
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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Bush was the original stimulus for big business and the uber-rich. Now it is time for an about-face. Remember that Bush's failures didn't end when he moved out of the White House. And now you're blaming Obama for the massive scale of Bush's failures when really he's mostly trying to fix those failures. They have certainly uprooted his plans--those that he got elected upon. You're interpreting the facts to suit your opinions.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    Bush was the original stimulus for big business and the uber-rich. Now it is time for an about-face. Remember that Bush's failures didn't end when he moved out of the White House. And now you're blaming Obama for the massive scale of Bush's failures when really he's mostly trying to fix those failures. They have certainly uprooted his plans--those that he got elected upon. You're interpreting the facts to suit your opinions.
    Could you list the things Obama has to deal with and at what date they will be owned by him?

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    Could you list the things Obama has to deal with and at what date they will be owned by him?
    According to some of his cheerleaders in the lamestream media , maybe after his first term ? Reagan got hammered for the state of the economy throughout 1982 culminating in the '82 Mid -Term Elections. The economy was clearly starting to improve but he was held responsible for unemployment, a classically lagging indicator. I am actually willing to cut Obama some slack on that one.The job losses to date are fairly attributed to the Recession that started under Bush The Dumber. The problem is that OBAMA's policies promise to do NOTHING to improve the situation and in fact promise to make things worse. His Porkulus Program did not create a single Private Sector job. Now he and the Dems are letting taxes increase BEFORE we recover. I'm sorry but history teaches that raising taxes is NOT a good thing to do when the economy is weak. It didn't work for Hoover or FDR and it's not going to work for Obama.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    Could you list the things Obama has to deal with and at what date they will be owned by him?
    That would take some time for me to research. I'll let him do the talking about that. But I may have a few things to say about it later.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: 'proof' the US Middle Class is Radically Shrinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    ...The problem is that OBAMA's policies promise to do NOTHING to improve the situation and in fact promise to make things worse. His Porkulus Program did not create a single Private Sector job. Now he and the Dems are letting taxes increase BEFORE we recover. I'm sorry but history teaches that raising taxes is NOT a good thing to do when the economy is weak. It didn't work for Hoover or FDR and it's not going to work for Obama.
    Time will tell and will be more accurate than your opinions.

    It is certainly arguable that Bush's tax cuts brought the US to the beginning of this deficit and those tax cuts were almost entirely for the rich. Was that Bush's trickle down theory? Now we see that we need that money back but we can only change the tax laws going forward. (The only thing that trickles down to the middle class is the pee inside old rich men's pants.)
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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