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  1. #26
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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    The S&P 500 went up 75% from March 2009 to April 2010. Anyone who was making contributions regularly would have made out very well. Over the long term, stocks consistently perform better than gold. Even with the economy as bad as it is, many corporations are doing well in terms of profitability.

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    The S&P 500 went up 75% from March 2009 to April 2010. Anyone who was making contributions regularly would have made out very well. Over the long term, stocks consistently perform better than gold. Even with the economy as bad as it is, many corporations are doing well in terms of profitability.
    Yea - profitability on lower revenues and elimination of millions of positions to cut costs. Profit is the difference between revenue and expenses and one can certainly have higher profit on less money by eliminating more expenses.

    But I guess that little tidbit makes me a tin foil hat wearer.

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    The S&P 500 went up 75% from March 2009 to April 2010. Anyone who was making contributions regularly would have made out very well. Over the long term, stocks consistently perform better than gold

    ^^^ well, I specifically avoided cherry-picking and compared 'last year' i.e. January 1 to December 31st, 2009. During that time period the S&P and gold gained essentially the same amount in terms of US dollar value.

    The problem with cherry-picking is that it cuts both ways i.e. your March 2009 to April 2010 75% gain still translates into a 42% net loss if viewed from October 2007 to April 2010 instead. During this same time period gold went from ~$ 730 to ~$ 1120 per ounce.

    Here's a 'handy' comparison chart of the S&P versus price of gold over the last 5 years for anybody interested ...



    ... which shows that anyone invested in gold more than doubled their money, while anyone invested in the S&P is still 'in the hole' by 13% or so ( ex dividend ) !


    As to your 'stocks consistently perform better than gold' propaganda, you can put that beside 'real estate always goes up in value' and 'having a college degree will always guarantee you a good job'. Since Bill Clinton opened the USA up to Globalism, the 'rules of the game' have changed permanently, and the old 'canards' simply no longer apply.


    profitability on lower revenues and elimination of millions of positions to cut costs. Profit is the difference between revenue and expenses and one can certainly have higher profit on less money by eliminating more expenses.
    I would also add that, where many US based corporations are concerned, it is a fact that overall corporate profits are increasingly attributable to overseas sales / operations ... which translate into higher US dollar denominated profits thanks to a devaluing US dollar exchange rate ! In combination with US operations being cut to the bone in terms of number of 'expensive' US employees, this leads to a situation where some US corporations are indeed very profitable.

    However, as Deo pointed out, this recent profitability really only helps a select group of Americans ... specifically the 'rich' investors who enjoy capital gains on rising stock prices ( assuming they bought shares in March 2009 and not October 2007 anyhow !!! ) and fat quarterly dividend checks. This recent profitability doesn't help US workers at all, however, since previously laid off US workers are not being rehired ( thanks to automation / outsourcing / offshoring ), and since remaining US employees are not receiving significant pay raises ( more typically net pay 'cuts' due to increased costs of health / retirement benefits being withheld from employee paychecks ).

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-08-2010 at 05:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    You're not presenting actual facts. All you are trying to do is present a one-sided view that everything is going to hell. It seems that you will not, under any circumstances, present anything positive about the US economy. Any time anyone does present anything positive, you try to turn it into doom and gloom.



    It all depends on the dancer. There are many dancers that use dancing as a means to better themselves by going to a good college or university. Dancers who do this can end up with a high income when they're in their 50's.

    If you want to get a good return on investment, you have to take some risk. Anyone who listened to your advice last year missed out on a 60% run-up in the stock market.
    This is almost getting tedious. I can just as easily argue that YOUR "Johnny One Note"; " head in the sand"; "All is Well" approach looks even MORE contrary to the facts. For instance, after the latest GLOOMY jobs report, Obama was dumb or ignorant enough to say : "All told, our economy has created nearly 600,000 PRIVATE sector jobs this year." (Emphasis mine.) He went on to claim that July was the seventh straight month in which private companies added workers. Neither claim is true and both are dependent on the GIGO methodology of the U.S. Dept. of Labor. The actual fact is that private sector job growth is anemic and is continually being revised DOWNWARD. Remember how the Labor Department had to admit to a 20% error for 2009 and that it overcounted jobs by 1.4 MILLION ?

    The Labor Department insists on using a computer program that tries to count how many new companies are being created each month and then it GUESSES how many jobs these new firms are creating, WHETHER OR NOT THEY EVEN EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE ! Since April, the Labor Department has added 550,000 jobs that it THINKS were created by companies that it THINKS exist; somewhere out there across the fruited plain. I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP ! And they are doing it even more than they did last year. And the fact that it is fiction is easily shown by looking at the numbers from the Labor Dept.'s own Household Survey which picks up self-employment. There is nothing there to show an uptick in new companies.We will NOT know the REAL numbers until the Labor Dept.'s annual reconciliation next year. Everyone knows that the numbers will be revised downward. The only question is : By how much ?

    Btw Mel ? Who says strippers are "non essential" ? I shudder to think of a world without em.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 08-10-2010 at 10:22 AM.

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Hyde View Post
    ....if I went on to, say...the music forum, and started flooding that board with posts about the declining quality of hearing in older americans, the fact that most audio equipment is made in Asia, and how concert hall construction is being halted..and took over 75% of the posts/threads there in this exercise...the board would suck
    Hey, I'd be interested in contributing to those debates too. LOL
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    This is almost getting tedious. I can just as easily argue that YOUR "Johnny One Note"; " head in the sand"; "All is Well" approach looks even MORE contrary to the facts. For instance, after the latest GLOOMY jobs report, Obama was dumb or ignorant enough to say : "All told, our economy has created nearly 600,000 PRIVATE sector jobs this year." Emphasis mine. He went on to claim that July was the seventh straight month in which private companies added workers. Neither claim is true and both are dependent on the GIGO methodology of the U.S. Dept. of Labor. The actual fact is that private sector job growht is anemic and is continually being revised DOWNWARD. Remember how the Labor Department had to admit to a 20% error for 2009 and that it overcounted jobs by 1.4 MILLION ?

    The Labor Department insists on using a computer program that tries to count how many new companies are being created each month and then it GUESSES how many jobs these new firms are creating, WHETHER OR NOT THEY EVEN EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE ! Since April, the Labor Department has added 550,000 jobs that it THINKS were created by companies that it THINKS exist; somewhere out there across the fruited plain. I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP ! And they are doing it even more than they did last year. And the fact that it is fiction is easily shown by looking at the numbers from the Labor Dept.'s own Household Survey which picks up self-employment. There is nothing there to show an uptick in new companies.We will NOT know the REAL numbers until the Labor Dept.'s annual reconciliation next year. Everyone knows that the numbers will be revised downward. The only question is : By how much ?

    Btw Mel ? Who says strippers are "non essential" ? I shudder to think of a world without em.

    None of that addresses how any "doom and gloom" info, or "happy sunshine" info has anything to do with strippers managing their finances.

    I could think that the occasional post about how crappy the economy is would be fine, but the DD is overrun with them, and most are actually pretty political in nature. If the politics forum was still open, 75% of these posts would be over there.

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Hyde View Post
    None of that addresses how any "doom and gloom" info, or "happy sunshine" info has anything to do with strippers managing their finances.

    I could think that the occasional post about how crappy the economy is would be fine, but the DD is overrun with them, and most are actually pretty political in nature. If the politics forum was still open, 75% of these posts would be over there.
    So give some examples of what you are thinking of.

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    Btw Mel ? Who says strippers are "non essential" ? I shudder to think of a world without em.
    Well, when you are willing to stop making your mortgage payments in favor of buying private dances, I'll believe that you actually consider strippers to be 'essential'. Oh wait ... strippers in Florida and Vegas tell me that this is now happening quite frequently !!!! ( reference to strategic defaults on underwater mortgages )


    but the DD is overrun with them, and most are actually pretty political in nature. If the politics forum was still open, 75% of these posts would be over there.
    Whether we like it or not, a whole bunch of MAJOR factors in the present and near future US economy are now based on gov't policy changes re income taxes, business taxes, energy taxes, health care taxes, new regulations applying to businesses ( including independent contractor dancer businesses ) etc. And all of these gov't policy changes come down to partisan politics by those voting to enact said gov't policy changes. Thus it is both absurd and impossible to avoid discussion of economic topics with political overtones given that they now comprise such a large influence on the present and near future US economy.

    As a result, and at the same time trying to avoid a replay of the old Political Poo forum devoted to purely partisan politics, the DD 'rule of thumb' has been a long standing requirement that at least 50% of every DD post be economic in nature.

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Well, when you are willing to stop making your mortgage payments in favor of buying private dances, I'll believe that you actually consider strippers to be 'essential'. Oh wait ... strippers in Florida and Vegas tell me that this is now happening quite frequently !!!! ( reference to strategic defaults on underwater mortgages )
    Mortgages and all this macro-economic stuff doesn't really effect strippers. Dollar Den shouldn't focus on such doom and gloom.




    Speak of the Devil about black outs and "Armageddon:"



    U.S. electricity blackouts skyrocketing

    Don't worry though - it's one of those tin-foil hat web sites...

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    This is almost getting tedious. I can just as easily argue that YOUR "Johnny One Note"; " head in the sand"; "All is Well" approach looks even MORE contrary to the facts.
    No, I never said all is well. I state facts, not make stuff up based on ideology as you always do, with your "tax cuts will solve every problem in the world". You refuse to acknowledge the obvious. The tax cuts you worship have burdened our country with over $11 trillion in debt.

    If its getting tedious, then don't respond. I really don't have much interest in reading your obnoxious, condescending comments, and I doubt many others here do either.

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    No, I never said all is well. I state facts, not make stuff up based on ideology as you always do, with your "tax cuts will solve every problem in the world". You refuse to acknowledge the obvious. The tax cuts you worship have burdened our country with over $11 trillion in debt.

    If its getting tedious, then don't respond. I really don't have much interest in reading your obnoxious, condescending comments, and I doubt many others here do either.
    Some would say spending is what put us into 11 trillion in debt.

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    Then why weren't we running up trillions of dollars of debt when tax rates were higher?

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    The deflation topic is heating up in the press. Maybe we should discuss the implications of that.

    (changing the subject because the debate about debates is pointless)
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    This is mostly an intellectual exercise for me, as I know this forum is what it is. There's a reason that it's dominated by a few people and not a lot of others come in here, and "Dollar Den of Doom" is it's nickname.

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Then why weren't we running up trillions of dollars of debt when tax rates were higher?
    You mean when CLINTON was President ? Very simple. Look at the SPENDING numbers THEN and compare them to NOW.

    Do you realize that Obama's $1.3 Trillion deficit exceeds all of Bush The Dumber's deficits in his eight ( years ?

    You are deliberately misreading my posts regarding "tax cuts". Part of it might be my fault based on inexact language. I support and advocate INCREASING revenues and have repeatedly posted to that effect. I support cuts to the RATES coupled with elimination of ALL deductions and credits. I have repeatedly stated that the sole legitimate purpose of our Tax Code is to raise the revenue necessary for our government to pay it's bills. I think even you would agree that instead the Tax Code has been turned into a "goody bag" to reward this group and that.

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    circling back on topic ... this news blurb has just been released !


    (snip)A crowd of people hoping to get federal housing assistance became unruly Wednesday morning with reports of fights breaking out in the crowd.

    Thousands of people were lined up at the Tri-Cities Plaza shopping center, hoping to apply for a voucher from the East Point Housing Authority that will give them a discount on their rent.

    People began lining up at the shopping center two days ago, and by Wednesday morning the crowd had grown to over several thousand people. East Point police, some wearing riot helmets, were patrolling the area. Firefighters and EMTs were attending to people who were overheating in the sun. Police from College Park, Hapeville, Fulton County and MARTA assisted in crowd control.

    Felecia McGhee told the AJC she arrived around 6:30 a.m. Wednesday. She said the major problem began when people started breaking into the line and officials started moving the areas where they were handing out applications. She said she saw at least two small children trampled when the crowd rushed the building where the applications were to be handed out.

    "It's a real mess out here," she said.

    East Point Police Sgt. Cliff Chandler said most of those treated were suffering from heat-related illnesses. He did not have a total number of people treated but knew of at least a half-dozen cases. He said a toddler was treated earlier in the morning for "some type of seizure." He estimated the crowd at 8,000 to 10,000.

    Channel 2 Action News reporter Mike Petchenik said fights were breaking out and police had to stop people who were storming the door.

    Channel 2 reporter Tom Jones said, “There are thousands, I mean, thousands of people here. I’ve seen people fall out from the heat.”

    No injuries were reported but an East Point police officer was treated for heat-related problems.

    By late morning the crowd had thinned considerably and people were walking up and getting their applications without delay. But just before the 1 p.m. deadline, a line of about 200 people had formed. Shortly after 1 p.m., several people ran across the parking lot to get in line but were told by police that the line was closed.

    Emergency personnel brought in a pickup truck full of bottled water and were handing it out to the crowd.

    A sign on the door of the office explained that only applications were being handed out.

    "The housing authority will be issuing applications Wednesday, August 11, starting at 9 a.m. Everyone in line by 1 p.m. on the 11th will receive an application. ... No Section 8 vouchers are available at this time. There are no public housing units available at this time. You're applying for the waiting list only."

    The Housing Choice Voucher Program, called Section 8, subsidized the rents of low-income families living in apartments and houses that are privately owned. The federal program makes up the difference in rent that the poor can afford and the fair market value for each area."(snip)

    from

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    ^^^ There is no Armageddon! All is well. No story here.

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    ^^^ yup, absolutely !

    and while were on the subject of stories, it appears that the gov'ts estimate of a 2.4% GDP growth rate last quarter was merely a 'story' as well ...


    (snip)"WASHINGTON (AP) -- A decline in exports and a sharp rise in imports pushed the U.S. trade deficit in June to its widest point since October 2008, raising new concerns about the weakening economic recovery.

    The $49.9 billion gap is worrying economists, who fear it means the U.S. economy grew at half the rate in the April-to-June quarter than first estimated by the government last month.

    The trade deficit jumped 18.8 percent in June compared to May, the Commerce Department reported Wednesday.

    While the rise in imports suggests the U.S. economy is growing, the drop in exports is a troubling sign for U.S. manufacturers who rely on overseas markets.

    U.S. exports slipped 1.3 percent to $150.5 billion. Sales of American farm products, computers and telecommunications equipment all declined. Imports rose 3 percent to $200.3 billion. The surge in consumer imports reflected higher shipments of a wide variety of goods from cell phones and household appliances to televisions and clothing.

    Nigel Gault, an economist at IHS Global Insight, said the June deficit figure means that the government will trim its estimate of overall economic growth from an already sub-par 2.4 percent to 1.2 percent when it releases a revised estimate on Aug. 27.

    He said that placed the economy "on even shakier ground" and underscored why the Federal Reserve announced on Tuesday that it would supply additional support for economic growth.

    "The slowing in exports will only fan fears of a faltering U.S. recovery," said Sal Guatieri, an economist at BMO Capital Markets.

    Stocks tumbled Wednesday as investors around the world worried about the state of the U.S. economy. The Dow Jones industrial average fell more than 245 points in midday trading.

    The deficit in goods and services, the difference between what America sells abroad and what the country imports, rose to the highest level in 20 months, when it stood at $59.4 billion."(snip)

    from


    I would also add that the increased crude oil imports resulting from President Obama banning of deep well offshore oil drilling was not a significant contributor to the April-June figures. It WILL be for the July-September figures !

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    plus this just released re unemployment claims ...

    (snip)"WASHINGTON (AP) -- The employment picture is looking bleaker as applications for jobless benefits rose last week to the highest level in almost six months.

    It's a sign that hiring is weak and employers are still cutting their staffs.

    First-time claims for jobless benefits edged up by 2,000 to a seasonally adjusted 484,000, the Labor Department said Thursday. Analysts had expected a drop. That's the highest total since February.

    Initial claims have now risen in three of the last four weeks and are close to their high point for the year of 490,000, reached in late January. The four-week average, which smooths volatility, soared by 14,250 to 473,500, also the highest since late February.

    Analysts said that the unexpected rise in claims suggests hiring in August won't be much better than July. The economy added a net 12,000 jobs last month after excluding the loss of temporary census positions. That's not nearly enough to reduce the unemployment rate, which is currently 9.5 percent.

    The jobless claims report "represents a very adverse turn in the labor market, threatening income growth and consumer spending," Pierre Ellis, an economist at Decision Economics, wrote in a note to clients.

    The prospect of more layoffs added to this week's grim outlook for the economy, which began Tuesday when the Federal Reserve lowered its assessment of the recovery."(snip)

    from


    again, the basic take-away seems to be that despite official gov't 'estimates', and despite hopeful commentary by the 'talking head' mainstream financial commentators, economic fundamentals still matter. And because the economic fundamentals have not changed for the better, neither have the REAL economic growth or unemployment statistics.

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    To solve a lot of the issues brought up here I would be very much in favor of two new sections, one just for Melonie and one for politics. Let Dollar Den be just for people asking about saving or investing and stuff directly related.

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    There's a politics discussion group available. Mel's already in her own world. Hahaha just kidding Mel.

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    Quote Originally Posted by jimboe7373 View Post
    To solve a lot of the issues brought up here I would be very much in favor of two new sections, one just for Melonie and one for politics. Let Dollar Den be just for people asking about saving or investing and stuff directly related.
    There used to be a politics section but it was closed down to kill the drama and hate.
    "I hear you calling and it's needles and pins. I wanna hurt you just to hear you screaming my name...You're poision. but I don't wanna break these chains.... I wanna love you but I'd better not touch."

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    Quote Originally Posted by princessjas View Post
    There used to be a politics section but it was closed down to kill the drama and hate.
    I think it would be good to put it back so that drama and hate could at least be quarrantined, same for Melanie's posts, whoever wants to read them can and whoever wants to avoid them will have an easier time. It's totally not any fun going into Dollar Den as it's so lopsided with these two topics.

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    A big problem is, the government has ingrained it's self deeply into every corner of the economy - it's hard to talk about it without getting into politics.

    Past Advice: Buy safe blue chip stocks like GM with good dividends.

    Today's Problems: If you were a stock holder or bond holder you were left holding the bag. Why? Unfriendly business environment from regulation. The government literally swooping up GM and making it private. Of course, the government now plans on IPO'ing the "new" GM.

    Past Advice: Get an IRA.

    Today's Problem: Oh Good Lord which scam now? Roth IRA? Regular IRA? 401K? Does it matter with the way government rocks the stock market? Does it matter since the government rewrites so many rules?

    One cannot even talk about savings accounts without regard to the government's influence in it. Hey, go out and make these mortgages! Oh, your going belly up? Hope you have less than 100K in your account. Oh wait, we changed our mind 250K. Um, for now. And no, you can't get your money back retroactively.

    And when government gets into something, politics gets into it.

    This is no free market. I think the closest we had to a free market was during Eisenhower. Its all government regulated or influenced in one way or another.

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    Default Re: Dollar Den of Doom and reality

    It's totally not any fun going into Dollar Den as it's so lopsided with these two topics.
    so post your own new Dollar Den threads already ... to balance out this supposed lopsidedness !!!


    A big problem is, the government has ingrained it's self deeply into every corner of the economy - it's hard to talk about it without getting into politics.
    This is just an undeniable fact today. And worse, the degree and manner of gov't involvement is rapidly increasing.

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