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Thread: what the "academics" say about strippers

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    Default what the "academics" say about strippers

    So I am preparing to write my master's thesis, and frankly, the subject has become boring to me (body image of adolescent Latin American girls). I'm going back to dancing in a couple of weeks, when season begins, and that has been on my mind a lot lately. So the other day, I was at a coffee shop and decided to peak at what kind of social research has been done on strip clubs/strippers/power differentials/etc.

    Needless to say, there is a lot of "feminist" lit out there that shuns exotic dance as degrading and exploitative, but all of the observer research (besides two or three instances) has been done by women who came into the club as customers (and therefore totally disrupted the environment by sheer fact that they were single women customers), or men. I actually got pretty pissed off by it all. I clearly remember the cons of dancing during my undergrad; but I very clearly remember the pros. One of the things that I loved the most about dancing was the self-confidence, assertiveness and power that it gave me. To say dancers are powerless and exploited - huh? Aren't there people in all low-skilled jobs that are exploited? IF there was ever a point where I felt exploited or powerless, at the end of the day, it was I who made the decision of whether or not to put up with that - there was always another club I could go to. I made myself an asset.

    So, I was talking with my committee head about all this (a black feminist man - and AMAZING professor!), and I was explaining that feminine sexuality is a power. I mean, really, it's a power that men will never have (Well, most) - so why are we so ashamed by it, as women? If a woman uses her sexuality as a power, she is manipulative, a whore, "trying to take the easy road," etc. Don't women realize that these sentiments are put in place by patriarchy?

    Then, my adviser looked at me and said, "bingo. If women used their sexuality as a power, they would rule the world."

    I made a comment on this in a feminist ethnography class last week - everyone was having a bitchfest about how academia is male-dominated, blah blah blah. I got fed up and said, "ladies! when are we going to stop viewing having a vagina as a handicap???" I mean, jesus! Embrace it. I will be the first to admit that I know exactly how to tap into this feminine power, and I use it whenever necessary. That doesn't discount my intelligence - it just evens the male/female playing field a bit.

    What do you all think?

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    Veteran Member AngelKing's Avatar
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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    Thank you so much for writing that. I've always said there is no person more powerful on this planet than a woman who knows how to use what she has. I think those that are against the power of feminine sexuality are deluded and working under the supposition that men and women should be identical in all respects, rather than equal.

    I believe in equality of the sexes, but dislike the idea of homogeneity. Men have their powers and strengths, and women have their own, and I love to see the female sex realizing the true nature and extent of their powers, and to see these powers unused is as sad as seeing anyone's true potential not being explored.

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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    I think that you have a valid point. If you can get enough research to back up your thesis idea of "feminie sexuality is a power", you could definitely get a good Masters paper out of it. However, I wouldn't limit it to just strippers-I would use any female sexuality power figure/job. I know bartenders and waitresses use it sometimes, actresses, models, students, etc do as well. Teachers, business professionals-almost all women have used it at some point in order to get ahead. And it is empowering to do that.

    And it really is a double standard, because men do it as well, but they aren't viewed the same way females who do it are. Maybe that dichotomy could be part of your paper as well?

    IDK, just my 2 cents worth... Ill shush up now.
    "You can close your eyes to reality but not to memories -Stainslaw J. Lec

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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    I never understood why a feminist would have a problem with a "stripper"or any other woman that is getting something because of her body. I think the view point of the customer may have something to do with it like you said. I agree with AK, a smart sexy woman is very powerful. I have talked to a few very intelligent women in powerful positions & most felt they had to be a bitch because of the environment.

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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    This is such a tangled issue. I think that the knee-jerk hatred by some feminists of strippers or porn or any women comfortable with their sexuality comes from this assumption that because women are victimized often in relation to of their sexuality, any expression of it (positive or negative), is inextricably liked to the victimization.

    The fact is that women are victimized, full stop. Though it often happens in the guise of sex, that's not the root of it. So it's a faulty causal relationship to begin with.

    No amount of denial will erase the fact that we are sexual creatures; in fact it is I think repressing desire and expression that leads to a lot of sexually based violence. Quashing our natural erotic instincts doesn't suddenly mean that women will get a fair shake in life, or that sex crimes will be history.

    There is power in owning our sexuality because it is yet another way in which we can assert ourselves as strong individuals.

    There is innate sexism in stripping, or in porn, or in banking, or fast food restaurants, fashion, literature...you name it. Too much blame and judgment is placed on the first two because they are the most obvious and therefore the easiest targets.

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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    I got fed up and said, "ladies! when are we going to stop viewing having a vagina as a handicap???" I mean, jesus! Embrace it.
    While it's great that people are all RAH, RAH, WOMEN!, the fact of the matter is that in the outside world, in the world of work, particularly in corporate and academic environments, the biggest impediment to the success of women isn't men and misogyny; it's other women.

    Setting aside the innately competitive and occasionally vicious nature of women vis a vis other women in any environment, it's particularly virulent in the work world for those women, as you say, that can fully realize and capitalize upon their own sexuality. They are hated and despised, by those either ashamed of their own sexuality or just as common, by those that lack the same sexual power. Just being a woman doesn't instantly connote a sexual power dynamic; fat sweathog mamas don't have the same appeal as tight, athletic dancers. They just don't.

    Don't women realize that these sentiments are put in place by patriarchy?
    No, those sentiments are put in place by other women--women that are threatened by their peers that are unabashed and unafraid to use sexuality to their own advantage, be it socio-economic or interpersonal, or both.

    Then, my adviser looked at me and said, "bingo. If women used their sexuality as a power, they would rule the world."
    A wise, wealthy old man once said to me that women do rule the world; they just let men wear the crown.
    Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.

    William F. Buckley, Jr.

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    Veteran Member AngelKing's Avatar
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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    While it's great that people are all RAH, RAH, WOMEN!, the fact of the matter is that in the outside world, in the world of work, particularly in corporate and academic environments, the biggest impediment to the success of women isn't men and misogyny; it's other women.

    Setting aside the innately competitive and occasionally vicious nature of women vis a vis other women in any environment, it's particularly virulent in the work world for those women, as you say, that can fully realize and capitalize upon their own sexuality. They are hated and despised, by those either ashamed of their own sexuality or just as common, by those that lack the same sexual power. Just being a woman doesn't instantly connote a sexual power dynamic; fat sweathog mamas don't have the same appeal as tight, athletic dancers. They just don't.



    No, those sentiments are put in place by other women--women that are threatened by their peers that are unabashed and unafraid to use sexuality to their own advantage, be it socio-economic or interpersonal, or both.



    A wise, wealthy old man once said to me that women do rule the world; they just let men wear the crown.

    Well skaters gonna skate, and...

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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    Pussy Power! I am all for using my sexuality to get anything I want. I don't see why that's any different from using my "intelligence" or my "mind". It's all ME. I don't think it's unfair if someone with a PhD uses their knowledge to get ahead just because I don't have the same amount of knowledge as them, we can't all have PhDs so why should it be unfair if I use my rediculously large boobs? Why should I let ANY resouce at my disposal go to waste?

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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    You all make excellent points - but AngelKing really hit it home for me. The truth is, men and women are different - physically, emotionally, mentally (I snickered as I typed the last one ) and I think that feminists get confused in their quest for equality. Equality and homogeneity are two different things. So Papillon - is a woman's use of sexuality as power truly a double standard? Heterosexual men would be far less likely to successfully use sexuality as a power because heterosexual women - (I venture to say) are not nearly as likely to fall for it....because we're wired differently.

    CO - I think you have a point to a degree. I do think that women can be cutthroat and nasty towards one another in ways that men are not. And you're right, the women most likely to shun a good looking woman for using her femininity and sexuality to her advantage would be those who don't possess those same traits. However....we live in an unfair world. Some women are fat, some are old, some are inherently ugly. I cannot solve the problems of every woman who feels disempowered. But, I can comment on the way I view empowerment for myself and women like me. I still believe that the root of this can be traced to centuries of patriarchy. We (both male and female members of society) have been trained that men are the dominant sex - I don't think you can really argue with that. So while some of the negative responses from others regarding female sexuality/power may just be from disgruntled women, I think on a much, much deeper level, the blame is systematic patriarchy.

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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    The core of feminism, for me, is having the ability to choose, in all aspects of life. Stripping fits into that realm.

    Best book ever on controversial topics like these: Jane Sexes It Up.

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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    I think men may have put the idea out there that women who use their sexuality are bad, but many women perpetuate the idea.

    To answer the question is it truly a double standard? Well, men who use their good looks aren't looked upon as whores as much as a woman who does so is, so I think so. Women may not respond as much or often as men to women do, but they still respond. Plus, I read somewhere that good looking people are responded better to than less attractive people. I thnk both genders use this to a certain degree, though men are looked upon more favorably when they do than when women do. Same thing with aging-men who age are looked upon better than women who show their age.

    Its kind of ironic that after I posted that last one, I went to work and met an academic whose wife is getting her doctorate in ED. He started talking to me (and tipping $5/song w/o prompting)and saying that since I have my degree in Education (like his wife) I should use it to better the world, have meaning, good karma, etc etc, rather than stripping and debasing myself to such a degree. So of course I had to debate with him about that. Idk that I changed his view any or he mine, but it was interesting conversation and I still made $20 off him.
    "You can close your eyes to reality but not to memories -Stainslaw J. Lec

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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    I think there are very intelligent people here and I think it's interesting the views, of which I agree. I have always felt that stripping and feminist can be the same thing. While stripping on the surface can be sexist (guys owning the clubs, ripping off the dancers, etc) if you go further it's a different story.

    I think that women who use their sexuality to build careers are very smart. I am not a fan of Madonna, Angelina Jolie or Lady Gaga but they used their sexuality in a way that helped them pursue their career. This can be said of course of the women in the sex industry who took their careers to higher levels because of porn (Jenna Jameson for example). We don't always want to admit this, but the reality is more attractive women do have it easier in life.

    At its core feminism is the right to pursue whatever a woman wants. Radical feminism has taken it to the extreme and made it where sexuality is degrading to women and not the case. Radical feminists have actually made it worse for women in general and this situation is one of them.

    Do I want women to be valued for their brain? Yes I do and I want attractiveness to be lesser, but this won't happen with the society we have. So until that happens, and we have true equality we will have women asserting their personalities through sexuality.

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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    I agree with everyone who says it's possible to be a feminist and a stripper rolled into one.

    I think one of the reasons why female strippers are considered "victims" by some people, instead of powerful, could be the fact that the SC is not about pleasing the strippers but pleasing the customers (often men). If you look at the way sexuality is represented by the sexes in a SC you could draw the conclusion that the female sexuality is defined and has a worth when it's pleasing to men. This means men set the rules and women follow them, while if the sexes would swap places (if men were the ones who did most of the stripping and women were there to be satisfy their "need" to look at hot naked men) it would be the other way round and the whole SC-environment would be based on "female sexuality/female preferences". Women would set the rules and men would be the ones spending time to please and serve.

    I do think there's a bit of truth in the opinion I've described above, an opinion I've encountered quite a few times, a lot more often than the "stripping is shameful"-crap (thank god, try to give me rational reasons please, not narrowminded BS).

    However.... First of all I don't believe that any sexuality is strictly defined by stripclubs, we shouldn't assume that we can find out everything there is to know about male and female sexuality by stepping into a SC.
    There is also the fact that, though the opposite might be more common, there are male strippers and female customers.
    And this view on sexuality is quite heterosexual. It basically tells you that there is a female sexuality and a male one and this is how they relate to one another, while forgetting all about the fact that some people in this world might not even be heterosexual at all. Or they might not be interested in defining their sexuality as typically male or female, maybe the just want to be free to be whoever they want to be - without feeling the pressure to fit into a certain mold.
    Another problem with talking about stripclubs like this is that stripping ranges from having elements of artistic performance/expression in it to simply being a service provided by someone who just needs the money and hates it. You can't really make a statement about "strippers", and what kind of power they actually have, when strippers don't have any specific characteristics that you can judge them by.

    Personally, I would say that it all comes down to whether you think it's ok that people take their clothes off for money or not. Don't even start to think about gender, think about human beings. If you don't think it's ok, fine, give me a reason why no one - male or female - should be allowed to do it. If you think it's ok for someone to do it, fine, then we all should be allowed to do it if we want to - male or female. And that's freedom.

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    Veteran Member Likethis's Avatar
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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    Hm... Hope that makes sense, English is not my first language and I struggle sometimes.
    Last edited by Likethis; 10-01-2010 at 04:33 PM.

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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    Like this, hard to believe that English isn't your first language because you are so eloquent.

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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    Thank you!

    When I make an effort I'm quite good, but at times I make stupid/sloppy mistakes.

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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    I believe that feminism at it's core is about a woman's right to choose. After that it's all up to her. Whether she works out of the home or is a stay at home mom, one is not more feminist than the other, the truly feminist part of the equation was her right to CHOOSE where she wanted to be. The same with your body. If YOU CHOOSE to cover yourself with a burka because you believe that your body is sacred and is only to be seen between you, your husband and your god, is that choice not JUST as feminist in the face of a society telling her that she should show more skin (like the majority), as it is a woman's decision to be a stripper, in the face of a society that says the stripper should show LESS skin? To me it's all about our ability to choose for ourselves what we will do with ourselves.

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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    ^ Yes! That's what I said above: it's all about choice.

    And I'll repeat again in case my post gets lost amongst the longer ones. You ladies should check out Jane Sexes It Up. Really great book that talks about everyone from strippers to prostitutes to housewives from a feminist perspective. Very sex-positive.

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    God/dess Arialandre's Avatar
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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    I'm deffinately going to try to to find that book another great one is "The Beauty Myth", it's unbelievably fantastic.

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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    ^ Yes. That is a timeless feminist classic. Very eye-opening.

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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    Here's Jane: http://www.amazon.com/Jane-Sexes-Up-...5982088&sr=8-1

    Used copies for 95 cents!

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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    Kick ass, thanks!

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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    Hey TD.....it's been a while since I've seen you post.

    One point I'd like to disagree with you on...the notion that the patriarchy places women who use their sexuality in a negative light. I think other women are worse than men on this, both feminists AND non-feminists. I think you probably agree with this, actually, but I wanted to point that out.

    Did you wind up going back to USF for your master's?

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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    Quote Originally Posted by tampadancer View Post

    Then, my adviser looked at me and said, "bingo. If women used their sexuality as a power, they would rule the world."
    They don't now?!
    A cunning linguist...

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    Default Re: what the "academics" say about strippers

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Hyde View Post
    Hey TD.....it's been a while since I've seen you post.

    One point I'd like to disagree with you on...the notion that the patriarchy places women who use their sexuality in a negative light. I think other women are worse than men on this, both feminists AND non-feminists. I think you probably agree with this, actually, but I wanted to point that out.
    Another theory: Perhaps some women are more bothered by this than men because, in some situations, it can be seen as playing 'dirty' by playing into the hands of the patriarchy. So of course men don't mind, because women using their sexuality are playing the same game as the men. Women who get mad about other women doing this are the ones who are trying to play by egalitarian rules.

    Just playing devil's advocate here.

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