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Thread: fuck election day

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    Default Re: fuck election day

    Does he want to outlaw abortion? Does he want to outlaw prostitution? Does he want schools in the Netherlands to stop teaching children about contraception and only teach "abstinence only" education?

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    Default Re: fuck election day

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenathefabulous View Post
    fuck elections. i dont believe in voting because (duh) i dont believe in the system.

    to sum up how i feel about voting: anyone who thinks they are excersising some sort of power by running to the polls and complacently choosing the lesser of two evils is delusional IMO. and self righteous for assuming you are better than those who chose not to vote.
    Same here.

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    Default Re: fuck election day

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Does he want to repeal and defund universal healthcare? Does he want to make pot illegal? Is he opposed to reducing carbon emissions?
    Pot is illegal in the Netherlands... Its why the can shut down any coffee shop in Amsterdam anytime they want. It's considered a "soft drug" but is still not legal. And I don't know about this guy in particular but there has been a wave in recent years to crack down on both weed and prostitution in the Netherlands.

    I'd also like you to find me some proof that Republicans are in favor of increasing carbon emissions. I'm talking an actual quote here, not some misconstrued thing they did that "means" they want to increase carbon emmissions.

    Seriously go compare the left parties in Europe to the Democrats... You're trying to make comparison on two vastly different political landscapes just so you can pretend the GOP is some kind of world wide "Fringe Party" when it is so clearly not.
    Last edited by jester214; 11-07-2010 at 08:35 PM.

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    Default Re: fuck election day

    You're trying to make comparison on two vastly different political landscapes just so you can pretend the GOP is some kind of world wide "Fringe Party"
    And before anybody actually starts going down this path, for any sort of accurate comparison to the USA it is necessary to only 'count' western democracies that actually have low skill level immigrant populations and/or actually allow or tolerate immigration.

    The favorite 'spin' re the supposed success of 'liberal' western european 'welfare states' is to include western european countries who have erected a 'reverse Berlin wall' around their countries re legal and illegal immigration. This refers to Sweden, Switzerland, Norway, etc. Yes there is some evidence that socialized economies can work in these countries ... but that arguable fact is contingent on A. an existing population that is homogeneous, B. an existing population with a very low birth rate, C. denial of residency and social welfare benefits to non-citizens with low skill levels, D. active deportation policies.

    If you wish to perform any sort of accurate comparison with the US, try focusing on western european countries with a significant and growing subgroup of poorly assimilated, high birth rate, low skill level 'minorities'.

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    Default Re: fuck election day

    Quote Originally Posted by jester214 View Post
    Pot is illegal in the Netherlands... Its why the can shut down any coffee shop in Amsterdam anytime they want. It's considered a "soft drug" but is still not legal. And I don't know about this guy in particular but there has been a wave in recent years to crack down on both weed and prostitution in the Netherlands.
    Pot is legal for personal use (up to 5 grams per day).

    Quote Originally Posted by jester214 View Post
    I'd also like you to find me some proof that Republicans are in favor of increasing carbon emissions. I'm talking an actual quote here, not some misconstrued thing they did that "means" they want to increase carbon emmissions.
    It's common knowledge. The Republicans are opposed to any laws regulating carbon emissions. The majority of Republicans probably deny global warming is caused by carbon emissions. Under the Bush Administration, the EPA refused to regulate carbon emissions. They had to be taken to court.

    http://environment.about.com/od/envi...greenhouse.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by jester214 View Post
    Seriously go compare the left parties in Europe to the Democrats... You're trying to make comparison on two vastly different political landscapes just so you can pretend the GOP is some kind of world wide "Fringe Party" when it is so clearly not.
    I'm sorry, but based on their positions, the GOP would be considered a fringe party in any other western country with an educated, informed population. You can't deny it. The GOP advocates outlawing abortion, abstinence-only sex education, eliminating the minimum wage, and teaching creationism fairy tales. These are all fringe positions in any other westernized country. You can't deny it. What other westernized country would have a vice president (or equivalent) candidate that believes in creationist fairy tales, for one of their major parties, and still be taken seriously?

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    Default Re: fuck election day

    ^ In addition, the Tea Party nutjobs continuously run their mouths about getting back to our roots, and the Christian morals and principles of the founding fathers.

    This country was NOT founded on Christianity. Everyone keeps talking about the Mayflower. That was an anomaly. The majority of colonies formed were business ventures by rich men back in England. They wanted to make money. Religion had nothing to do with it. And the British were not the only ones who had stakes here. The French were very active as fur traders and trappers, and the Spanish were very active further south in their search for gold, silver, and spices (including sugar). The French and Spanish actively assimilated the native tribes. They intermarried and adopted a lot of customs. The British, however, had zero interest in the natives; they wanted the land, and they had no qualms about lying and stealing from the natives to get it. Then if you fast forward to the Revolution, the founding fathers were NOT Christians. They were Deists. They did not believe ANY religion should have a place in the governing of the United States. Examples:

    "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."
    -John Adams

    "Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
    -Thomas Jefferson

    So, in conclusion, when the Tea Party morons (or the Tea Baggers, as my dad insists on calling them) are basing so much of their principles and their rousing speeches on "the good old days" and "getting back to the roots that our founding fathers believed in" and all their other propaganda on historical "facts" that AREN'T TRUE...I immediately have ZERO respect for the organization. They are liars and the people who are leading it either don't know their American History (which is embarrassing), or they know perfectly well that they aren't telling the truth, but use the lies to mislead and work up the ignorant and unhappy people in this country. And a good majority of the GOP is caving to their demands instead of having the balls to say, "You people are crazy and I'm not going to do what you tell me to." They're just as big a bunch of pussies as most Democrats.

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    Default Re: fuck election day

    Quote Originally Posted by firemaiden04 View Post
    ^ In addition, the Tea Party nutjobs continuously run their mouths about getting back to our roots, and the Christian morals and principles of the founding fathers.

    This country was NOT founded on Christianity. Everyone keeps talking about the Mayflower. That was an anomaly. The majority of colonies formed were business ventures by rich men back in England. They wanted to make money. Religion had nothing to do with it. And the British were not the only ones who had stakes here. The French were very active as fur traders and trappers, and the Spanish were very active further south in their search for gold, silver, and spices (including sugar). The French and Spanish actively assimilated the native tribes. They intermarried and adopted a lot of customs. The British, however, had zero interest in the natives; they wanted the land, and they had no qualms about lying and stealing from the natives to get it. Then if you fast forward to the Revolution, the founding fathers were NOT Christians. They were Deists. They did not believe ANY religion should have a place in the governing of the United States. Examples:

    "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."
    -John Adams

    "Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
    -Thomas Jefferson

    So, in conclusion, when the Tea Party morons (or the Tea Baggers, as my dad insists on calling them) are basing so much of their principles and their rousing speeches on "the good old days" and "getting back to the roots that our founding fathers believed in" and all their other propaganda on historical "facts" that AREN'T TRUE...I immediately have ZERO respect for the organization. They are liars and the people who are leading it either don't know their American History (which is embarrassing), or they know perfectly well that they aren't telling the truth, but use the lies to mislead and work up the ignorant and unhappy people in this country. And a good majority of the GOP is caving to their demands instead of having the balls to say, "You people are crazy and I'm not going to do what you tell me to." They're just as big a bunch of pussies as most Democrats.
    The original tea party people were pretty rational non party independents (probably closer to Libertarianism). They wanted to cut taxes and it was a financial issue. I think most of these people went to the new coffee party. The tea party, which started with rational ideas became hijacked by the same nutjobs who took over the Republican Party. It's hard to remember, but at one point the Republican Party was the more progressive party and had some very admirable presidents (Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, etc). They were the ones who pushed for the abolition for slavery and women's rights. Then when Reagan ran for president that's when they started taking over the Republican Party and really pushed out a lot of the moderates. There are still many moderate Republicans but they aren't as common as the hard right.

    Now because people are catching on, they are pretending to be against higher taxes. That's not their real agenda though. Their real agenda is to outlaw abortion, make women second class citizens, make everyone poor and the rich richer.

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    Default Re: fuck election day

    ^ I agree that everything is just moving towards the right. The Republicans are generally right-wing enough to be considered extremists, and the Democrats are fairly moderate. I don't feel that there is a "liberal" party anymore. Though, of course, according to Republicans, they're as moderate as moderate could be and we're all socialists.

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    Default Re: fuck election day

    Quote Originally Posted by firemaiden04 View Post
    ^ I agree that everything is just moving towards the right. The Republicans are generally right-wing enough to be considered extremists, and the Democrats are fairly moderate. I don't feel that there is a "liberal" party anymore. Though, of course, according to Republicans, they're as moderate as moderate could be and we're all socialists.
    Yeah and that is the problem. I've heard some politicians called moderate even though they are definitely conservative. A Democratic president like Clinton would have been considered a moderate Republican years ago. The Democratic party is not for liberals anymore (that would be the Greens or the Socialist party). The Republican Party today is not the one of years ago. In fact former president Gerald Ford even mentioned something like this awhile back on how he didn't like the rightwingers taking over the Republican Party. His wife Betty Ford would never be considered a Republican today,

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    Default Re: fuck election day

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Pot is legal for personal use (up to 5 grams per day).



    It's common knowledge. The Republicans are opposed to any laws regulating carbon emissions. The majority of Republicans probably deny global warming is caused by carbon emissions. Under the Bush Administration, the EPA refused to regulate carbon emissions. They had to be taken to court.

    http://environment.about.com/od/envi...greenhouse.htm



    I'm sorry, but based on their positions, the GOP would be considered a fringe party in any other western country with an educated, informed population. You can't deny it. The GOP advocates outlawing abortion, abstinence-only sex education, eliminating the minimum wage, and teaching creationism fairy tales. These are all fringe positions in any other westernized country. You can't deny it. What other westernized country would have a vice president (or equivalent) candidate that believes in creationist fairy tales, for one of their major parties, and still be taken seriously?
    Wrong. Even possession or production for personal consumption is a misdemeanor in the Netherlands. It's simply not enforced under the "soft" drug policies.

    "It's common knowledge". According to recent polls it's "common knowledge" in this country that Obama is a Muslim...

    So you're basing your information off of "common knowledge" and inaccuracies... Well I think this discussion is done.

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    Default Re: fuck election day

    Quote Originally Posted by firemaiden04 View Post
    ^ I agree that everything is just moving towards the right. The Republicans are generally right-wing enough to be considered extremists, and the Democrats are fairly moderate. I don't feel that there is a "liberal" party anymore. Though, of course, according to Republicans, they're as moderate as moderate could be and we're all socialists.
    That's the problem, everyone wants to label the other side as all extremists. We let the people who yell the loudest determine the "makeup" of our parties. The vast majority of Republicans AND Democrats are technically moderates.

    I'm a registered independent, fiscally conservative/moderate, and generally pretty liberal when it comes to social matters. Yet I lean Republican generally because fiscal matters are more important to me than social matters. Yet people reguarly assume I'm anti-abortion, pro-destroying the environment, and a radical christian who hates homosexuals.

    Republican and Democrats mean a lot more than extreme left and right. Yet people on both sides of the spectrums refuse to accept that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firemaiden04 View Post
    This country was NOT founded on Christianity.
    It wasn't founded on Christianity but we do have some very deep religious/Christian roots.

    And while the most vocal and well known founding fathers were probably deists of one variety or another. Many of the lesser known founding fathers were very relgious men.

    I don't like it when people try and claim America was a giant colony founded as a outpost of Christianity, but nor do I agree with people who suggest it was made as a country that didn't embrace religion to a certain leve.

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    Default Re: fuck election day

    Quote Originally Posted by jester214 View Post
    Wrong. Even possession or production for personal consumption is a misdemeanor in the Netherlands. It's simply not enforced under the "soft" drug policies.

    "It's common knowledge". According to recent polls it's "common knowledge" in this country that Obama is a Muslim...

    So you're basing your information off of "common knowledge" and inaccuracies... Well I think this discussion is done.
    If you can't handle the fact that your party would be considered the right-wing fringe in any other western country, that's too bad. It doesn't make it any less true.

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    Default Re: fuck election day

    Quote Originally Posted by jester214 View Post
    That's the problem, everyone wants to label the other side as all extremists. We let the people who yell the loudest determine the "makeup" of our parties. The vast majority of Republicans AND Democrats are technically moderates.

    I'm a registered independent, fiscally conservative/moderate, and generally pretty liberal when it comes to social matters. Yet I lean Republican generally because fiscal matters are more important to me than social matters. Yet people reguarly assume I'm anti-abortion, pro-destroying the environment, and a radical christian who hates homosexuals.

    Republican and Democrats mean a lot more than extreme left and right. Yet people on both sides of the spectrums refuse to accept that.
    If you are voting for people who are anti abortion then yes people will see you as that because that candidate made it known that's how they feel. In the Illinois race for governor I knew people voting for the Republican candidate because he opposes a tax hike, unlike the Dem governor. However many of these were people that would be affected if he had gotten in because he opposes equal pay, abortion in all cases, etc. I can't even remember the last Democratic candidate for president who was a far left liberal (and NO, Obama is NOT a far left liberal), unlike the Republicans, where it's very hard for a moderate Republican to run because of the religious right. Even when a moderate runs he doesn't usually win the primaries.

    This is just national. In Illinois we have many moderate Republicans and I voted for several of them. I am NOT a Dem or Rep because neither speaks for me. I probably lean more Libertarian than anything else but will NEVER vote for a man (and it's usually men) who want to take away my rights as a woman.

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    Default Re: fuck election day

    taking a step sideways, all of the above discussion is basically a microcosm of exactly what happened on election day. The 'blue' states became an even deeper blue. The 'red' states became an even brighter red. There is little if any common ground between them. There is also little chance of either group convincing supporters of the other group that they should change their position. Thus the future direction clearly points to increased conflict. Evidence of that escalating conflict is already coming in ...

    ... about Texas deliberating a new Arizona-like immigration law

    ... "California: The Lindsay Lohan of States
    Sacramento is headed for trouble again, and it shouldn't expect a bailout."

    ... 'President Obama isolated ahead of 2012"

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    Default Re: fuck election day

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    http://radio.woai.com/cc-common/news...rticle=7811998 ... about Texas deliberating a new Arizona-like immigration law
    Proposing/passing laws like this could seriously harm the GOP over the long run. In California, Colorado, and Nevada, Hispanic voters overwhelming voted for Democratic candidates, which resulted in Democratic victories in three Senate races and the California governor race. As Hispanics are the fast growing segment of the population, this could make it impossible for Republicans to gain a majority in the future. Texas might even become a blue state.

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    Default Re: fuck election day

    I'm not so sure that states stayed the same. I am in a blue state (Illinois) yet we elected a Republican senator and several Republicans to state office. To be fair though many of these Republicans are often called "Democrat Lite" here because they are pro choice and other moderate social issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    If you are voting for people who are anti abortion then yes people will see you as that because that candidate made it known that's how they feel.
    I see that as somewhat ridiculous, because no person agrees with everything the people they vote for supports. Unless they are in fact running for office and voting for themselves.

    As far as Obama not being "far left"... Well he's not moderate either. Of the years he was in the Senate he was picked at least once, as one of the more liberal in the Senate.

    Though I agree, he's not really "far left" but the spectrum is so skewed it's hard to say anymore. I still maintain that most people in this country are actually pretty moderate even if they deny it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    If you can't handle the fact that your party would be considered the right-wing fringe in any other western country, that's too bad. It doesn't make it any less true.
    My party?

    I guess I've already seen your reading comprehension isn't strong so I'll repeat... I'm a registered Independent. I reguarly vote for Democrats. I voted for the current Governor of North Carolina (though I now regret that decision). Go ahead, go do some googling see what party she is.

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    Default Re: fuck election day

    Then why are you so adamant about defending the Republican Party?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jester214 View Post
    I see that as somewhat ridiculous, because no person agrees with everything the people they vote for supports. Unless they are in fact running for office and voting for themselves.

    As far as Obama not being "far left"... Well he's not moderate either. Of the years he was in the Senate he was picked at least once, as one of the more liberal in the Senate.

    Though I agree, he's not really "far left" but the spectrum is so skewed it's hard to say anymore. I still maintain that most people in this country are actually pretty moderate even if they deny it.
    Of course you won't agree with everything someone says, but some positions are beyond scary and I'd rather not vote than vote for someone who harbors racist, sexist or homophobic views.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Then why are you so adamant about defending the Republican Party?
    I would be just as adamant about someone making idiotic and completley incorrect statements about the Democratic Party. It's this attitude and ignorance that is one of the MAJOR problems with the politics in our country. I actually tipped my hat to John Stewart and Stephen Colbert (normally I think the former is a smug bastard, while the latter is just annoying) for the rally they had.

    The people who scream the loudest are the only ones being heard in both parties, and instead of the more rationale (and often the majority) members trying to fix the problem they are just standing idle. While the members of the opposition drink the koolaid about how evil and extremist the other side is.

    I vote the person, not the party. I seriously think a lot of people just want to hate and blame others, Republican and Democrat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    Of course you won't agree with everything someone says, but some positions are beyond scary and I'd rather not vote than vote for someone who harbors racist, sexist or homophobic views.
    Well I think you'd be hardpressed to find someone who doesn't harbor racist, sexist or homophobic views... But I understand what you're saying.

    At some point though I pick the person who I hope will do what's best for me and the people around me... I'll never like what everyone says, and I still maintain that lumping like that is bad for our politics/country and is just wrong.

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    Default Re: fuck election day

    Quote Originally Posted by jester214 View Post
    I would be just as adamant about someone making idiotic and completley incorrect statements about the Democratic Party.
    No, my statements are correct. The Republicans positions on a number of issues are extreme, and would be considered fringe in many other countries. Wanting to outlaw abortion is extreme. Opposing teaching about contraception in public schools is extreme. Opposing any type of health care reform that would provide insurance for all Americans is extreme. Supporting the teaching of creationist fairy tails in public schools is extreme. Opposing basic rights for homosexuals, such as the right to openly serve in the military, is extreme. These positions are widely supported in the Republican Party.

    I personally know people who have suffered greatly because they could not get health insurance. There are people in this forum who are not able to get medical care they need because they don't have health insurance. The Republican Party has been fighting vehemently to prevent people like this from ever being able to get insurance. They do not care how much suffering they cause. Their ideology is going to take precedence over people every time.

    Quote Originally Posted by jester214 View Post
    It's this attitude and ignorance that is one of the MAJOR problems with the politics in our country. I actually tipped my hat to John Stewart and Stephen Colbert (normally I think the former is a smug bastard, while the latter is just annoying) for the rally they had.
    No, it's the attitude and ignorance of treating the Republicans' extreme views as acceptable alternatives that is one of the MAJOR problems in this country. Republican policies have wrecked our country.

    Quote Originally Posted by jester214 View Post
    The people who scream the loudest are the only ones being heard in both parties, and instead of the more rationale (and often the majority) members trying to fix the problem they are just standing idle. While the members of the opposition drink the koolaid about how evil and extremist the other side is.
    The Republicans never try to fix the problem. All they do is oppose everything the President/Democrats try to get passed. Look at the huge increase in the number of times the filibuster has been used since the Democrats have taken control of the Senate:

    http://newsjunkiepost.com/wp-content...oked3Final.png

    All they do is say "no" to everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by jester214 View Post
    I vote the person, not the party. I seriously think a lot of people just want to hate and blame others, Republican and Democrat.
    No, I don't just want to hate and blame others, but I will blame the responsible party when their policies harm our country. It was the previous three Republican presidents that ran our nation's debt up to 13 trillion dollars, all so that the wealthiest Americans could become even wealthier. It was the previous Republican president that doubled our national debt and allowed the worst financial crisis in 80 years to occur. Besides the wrecked economy, he left our current President with a trillion dollar deficit to start out with. It's the Republican party that wants to impose their backward religious beliefs on others, such as opposing teaching contraception in public schools. As a result, our country has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the western world.

    I'm not even a strong supporter of the Democratic Party. I have just become so disgusted with the Republicans because of all the harm they have done, and continue to do with whatever power they are given.

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    Default Re: fuck election day

    ^A couple hundred words there and nothing but inaccuracies, propaganda, and hate. If you can't even recognize there are major issues in both parties and pretty much the last 5 presidents (including Obama) have hurt this country, then there's no point talking to you.

    Oh and for someone that doesn't want to hate and blame, you sure said Republicans in bold... a lot.

    Done.

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