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Thread: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

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    Default Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    (snip)"On July 21, the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee approved a bill that will commit $2 billion to bolster electric car infrastructure with a goal of making half of the vehicles on America’s roads electric by 2030. The subsidies offered in the legislation are on top of billions Congress has already doled out to electric-car programs. Nissan and General Motors are among the welfare recipients preparing to release electric cars despite concerns the final product will lack a market.

    From the Wall Street Journal:

    "We have to acknowledge that there's a little bit of a 'Field of Dreams' here, that if we just build the technology that the consumer will buy them," said Gloria Bergquist of the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, a trade group whose members include the Detroit three auto makers and Toyota Motor Corp. (TM). "We hope that's so, but we also need to look at all parts of the equation."

    Perhaps the least usual suspect receiving hundreds of millions in Energy Department monies for its upcoming battery-powered contributions is the luxury and unprofitable car maker Tesla Motors (TSLA). Tesla’s crowning glory is its extravagant $109,000 Roadster electric sports car -- of which the company has sold less than 1,000.

    Since its founding in 2003, Tesla has never posted an annual profit. Its CEO, eccentric entrepreneur and industrialist Elon Musk, who served as inspiration for Robert Downey Jr.’s character in Iron Man, sank his personal fortune (from the sale of his previous businesses Zip2 and PayPal) into creating Tesla. Musk conceded in a February 2010 divorce filing that he was broke and, in the first quarter of 2010, the company was reporting a net loss of $29.5 million. This apparently hasn’t failed to inspire confidence in lawmakers hoping for a return on the American taxpayer’s $465 million investment in Musk's firm.

    The funds were awarded to Tesla to help the company build its all-electric sedan, the Model S. The base price of the Model S is $56,500 but, after taxpayers pay an additional $7,500 per car in tax credits, the actual price for consumers comes out to $49,000. Not exactly the people’s sedan. The company is currently taking reservations with a $5,000 deposit.

    But the release of the Model S is shrouded in doubt. Originally set to debut next year, Musk now says the Model S won’t be on the road until 2012. Tesla designer Franz von Holzhausen admitted the car “is only about 90% there on the outside and about 40% there on the inside.”

    Still, hope does remain for the little electric-car company that could. Tesla’s recent initial public offering (the first by an American automaker since Ford’s (F) debut in 1956) allowed the company to raise $226.1 million, selling 13.3 million shares at $17 each. Toyota’s recent $50 million investment in Tesla could also help get company on the road to success.

    In March, the company announced that it had produced its 1,000th Roadster, the first car the company introduced to the market. Its base price was $109,000 though some states offered buyers time-limited tax credits, including California and Colorado.

    One thing seems clear: Musk hasn’t achieved this level of fame by taking baby steps. If not for the risks Musk has taken with his business ventures, Iron Man’s Tony Stark may not have the courage to live by the motto: “Sometimes you gotta run before you can walk.” Then again, Tony Stark wasn’t running on the taxpayer’s dime"(snip)

    from


    So to date, US taxpayers have directly 'contributed' $465 million to fund the actual production of 1000 Tesla cars ( in the form of 'repayment optional' green industry loans ). Additionally, US taxpayers and taxpayers of specific electric vehicle tax credit states have indirectly contributed millions more in the form of foregone tax revenues i.e. rich buyers of Tesla cars deducting their electric vehicle tax credit from taxes owed on other forms of personal income. Combined, these two US taxpayer 'contributions' amount to nearly $500,000 for every single $109,000 Tesla roadster built and sold to date !!!

    As a side note, investors trying to cash in on Tesla's gov't subsidies have done very well lately ... TSLA shares have recently jumped to the $26 ballpark ! But with discussion of Tesla's losses and dependence on gov't subsidies now starting to draw open discussion ( post election ), potential for further increases in their stock price is cloudy at best.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 11-09-2010 at 04:33 AM.

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    I'm sure they said the same things about govt subsidies in trains and airplanes and the interstate highway system.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    Most of the country "grows" a business by profits and limited financing.

    California "grows" a business by burn rate. Hmmm, where have we heard that before?

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    govt subsidies in trains and airplanes and the interstate highway system
    Yes but there is a huge difference between gov't owned and operated amtrak or airports or interstate highways and a PRIVATELY OWNED for-profit corporation where private investors are pocketing taxpayer money !!!


    However I will concede that aircraft maker Boeing does receive some corporate welfare as well ...

    (snip)"In a battle that seems to be never-ending, Airbus, owned by Europe’s EADS, and the US-based Boeing (BA) have been accusing each other of receiving illegal government subsidies. The interesting point about this battle is that it's no big secret that these two aerospace giants rely on government funding to bring to market almost all of their products.

    “Boeing and Airbus both receive substantial government support, but they are through decidedly different mechanisms and formulas. And it's a little bit like trying to balance baseball and cricket. They're kind of alike, but they're just different,” Allan McArtor, head of Airbus’ Washington office, told NPR in 2005.

    The He-said/She-said battle began in 2004 and has made its way through rounds of World Trade Organization arguments. The first ruling in the case came back earlier this year, when the WTO said that Airbus received unfair government funding in the form of launch aid to build its commercial aircraft. That funding led to a significant shift in market share away from the competition (specifically Boeing). Boeing and the US argued (and the WTO agreed) that the money given to Airbus qualifies as an illegal subsidy because the aerospace manufacturer is only required to pay back the funds if the plane succeeds in the marketplace.

    Meanwhile, Airbus and the EU argue that the tax breaks and funding from NASA and the Dept. of Defense give Boeing just as much of an advantage. A WTO report is expected to drop in September that will discuss Boeing’s use of government money. At the end of May, Airbus released research claiming that the European Union has documented:

    * Approximately $16.6 billion in government research and development subsidies to Boeing between the late 1980s and 2006, compared to an alleged $3.7 billion in R&D funding given to Airbus.

    * Some $4.9 billion in state and local tax breaks granted to Boeing. (The figure didn't include newer tax breaks offered by South Carolina to Boeing.)

    * A $1.5 billion injection from the Japanese government, and close to $600 million from Italy, toward production of Boeing's 787 Dreamliner, which would result in jobs moving overseas


    In mid-September, the WTO came back with an interim ruling responding to the claims made by Airbus and the EU. The trade referee's findings said that money supplied to Boeing through the Department of Defense and NASA constituted illegal taxpayer aid. "(snip)

    from

    At least the argument can be made that R&D assistance to Boeing by the DOD and NASA are related to Boeing being able to supply military aircraft with sufficient future performance to meet future US military needs i.e. a strategic expenditure. I am not aware of any pressing strategic need by the US military to establish and maintain a secure domestic source of maximized performance electric vehicles !!!

    As to gov't subsidies given to Boeing by the gov'ts of Japan and Italy, at least US taxpayers weren't charged to pay for these subsidies. However, arguably, US taxpayers ARE being charged to provide hybrid vehicle subsidies to Japanese manufacturers Toyota, Honda etc. via the federal and state tax credits.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 11-16-2010 at 11:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Yes but there is a huge difference between gov't owned and operated amtrak or airports or interstate highways and a PRIVATELY OWNED for-profit corporation where private investors are pocketing taxpayer money !!!
    ...~
    Historically railroads and airlines were given subsidies in several forms to help start those businesses. It was an investment. I am not talking recent, just that there are a huge amounts of precedents in initially subsidizing useful industries. It's amazing to me that conservatives, who like to delve in the past, ignore the historical information does not support their current thrusts.
    Last edited by threlayer; 11-18-2010 at 08:58 PM. Reason: improve phrasing
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    if you're referring to the land grant subsidies given to railroad barons in the 1860's to promote construction of the first cross-country railroad I agree this was a good thing. If you're referring to the ongoing present day subsidies to perpetually money losing amtrak then I obviously don't agree.

    Similarly if you're talking about NASA / DOD research money being given to Boeing to promote development of leading edge technology aircraft ultimately needed by the US military and space program I agree this is a good thing. But if you're referring to DOE research money being given to Tesla to develop leading edge technology electric cars that ultimately have NO market need ( except generating tax credits for the rich ) then I obviously don't agree.

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    The older examples are what I was referring to. China is now the leading developer-producer of wind energy technologies. India and China are now leading in eletric car technologies, such as batteries.

    Because the USA does not have a sufficient number of scientists/engineers/compnies working on leading technologies, whether by private investment or public investment in such research and development technologies, to that extent the USA is rapidly falling behind in next-gerneration technologies.

    Say what you will about vaue of the dollar, balance of payments, foreign exhange, national debt, etc., but if the USA is not working on next generation technologies as hard as other companies, then to that extent the USA will NOT be prepared to lead in those technologies or in many others. Unfortunately the USA is not. Not just the conservatives are to blame, but they are sure as Hell not leading the way in the critical technologies next generation. For example what country is ahead in nuclear power generation technologies (where the USA was ahead up till the 80s)?

    I could name several besides energy-related ones where the USA is behind several other countries, a major one being stem-cell research. While the USA may be ahead in space, the USA is not at the leading edge in some of the critical technologies required for those developments.

    In the area of electric cars, efficiency, power, weight, and long range driving distance are important factors needed for commercial acceptance. Except for the distance target, the Tesla work is leading the way in the others. NASA and the 'big three' auto companies' participation in NASCAR both have led to useful innovations that were unexpected in the beginning. Those both are investments in indirectly related technologies, not envisioned to directly lead to the actual results.

    It is short-sighted thinking that prevents advanced developments. In the case of Tesla, those well-heeled buyers are partially funding research that may lead to wider commercial acceptance of electric vehicles. This is a good thing because USA's government does not have to fund all the development. I thought you'd appreciate that. A lot of new developments in the auto industry have traditionally first been available in high-end autos, where the well-heeled have helped fund (or amortize) the development. Most of those innovation have found their way onto much lower cost vehicles by now.

    You see, that's they way innovative development works best. It's a tradition, well-proved by experience. Keeping government out of the path of development is just short-sighted. Where would this country be without those "general welfare" investments now? The USA certainly would have found it much harder to be at the top of the industrialized countries.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    China is now the leading developer-producer of wind energy technologies. India and China are now leading in eletric car technologies, such as batteries.
    This situation developed, and will in all likelihood remain forever, because both rare earth element refining for wind generators and metals / chemical processing for batteries are both NASTY processes. Attempting to perform these processes in the USA involves all sorts of environmental regulatory compliance costs as well as worker safety compliance costs that India and China don't require ( or require to a far lesser degree ). However, if you check the fine print, rare earth magnet motor technology and high efficiency battery technology both originated with US R&D efforts. But as soon as either technology reached the phase of commercial reality, the US was immediately cut out of the production loop based on mandated US environmental and worker safety costs.

    As to nuclear generation in the US, I assume you are aware that Constellation energy just had to cancel construction plans ( with a French partner ) for a new nuclear generating plant because the US gov't would not guarantee their financing ??? see . Yet the gov't could afford to guarantee tens of billions for GM ( on top of outright grants ) and 1/2 billion for Tesla Motors ! One reason cited by the French company for pulling the plug is the comparatively higher costs of bringing a nuclear power plant online in the USA ... higher interest costs on a delayed project schedule, much higher legal costs etc. ... delays and extra costs created by 'green lobby' objections and lawsuits. So the USA is apparently willing to subsidize truly non-green but politically correct hybrid/electric vehicles, but is apparently NOT willing to subsidize truly green but politically incorrect nuclear power.

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    Reminds me of GM's Volt with its 33 mile range.
    And its $7500 per car Federal subsidy thanks to Obama, our Automotive Engineer in Chief, and his fellow modern day Edsel Fords in the Congress. Plus the $2000 tax credit for 50% of the cost of a proper ( 240 volt) charger. Normal house current is only 115.
    And its availability to only 6 states and Washington D.C.
    And its whopping 120,000 POTENTIAL customers. That's right. That is how many people GM says have "signaled interest" in this turkey of a lemon.
    And its pathetic production of only 10,000 units.
    And its cost of $41,000. For a car that seats four and has room for one (1) bag of groceries and maybe a makeup bag.
    And the increased burning of coal to generate the electricity needed to recharge these pieces of junk that nobody really wants to buy.
    And it's NOT even eligible for California's $5000 cash rebate that the Nissan Leaf is getting because the Volt is NOT an electric car. It's just another HYBRID ! Btw-Who knew California was so flush with funds ?
    And it's manufacturer GM paying back it's government loan using a TARP funded escrow account.

    When is this nonsense going to stop ? We didn't learn a thing from the ethanol debacle.

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    Originally Posted by Eric Stoner
    Reminds me of GM's Volt with its 33 mile range.
    "the Volt has an expected all-electric range of 40 miles (64 km), a distance longer than the daily commute for 75% of Americans,[9] whose average commute trip is 33 miles (53 km)" "After the battery is depleted, a small 4-cylinder internal combustion engine using premium gasoline creates electricity on-board to extend the Volt's range up to an additional 310 miles"
    And its $7500 per car Federal subsidy
    It's a tax credit for that amount and I think in this case it qualifies for as an incentive than a subsidy
    And its availability to only 6 states and Washington D.C.
    And its whopping 120,000 POTENTIAL customers. That's right. That is how many people GM says have "signaled interest" in this turkey of a lemon.
    And its pathetic production of only 10,000 units.
    It's new technology as is the whole hybird/electric market- would you prefer they pay the cost to manufactur 200,000 before the demand was there?. What do you think the starting demand and and initial production was for the first Ford's manufactured?. New industries and technologies very seldom explode- they evolve. I'm not sure what your gripe is, that's capitalism in action. They will put forth their ideas and plan, Leaf and other companies will do likewise. The market will decide who wins and everyone will likely adjust and improve based on those results. The tax credit from the goverment helps give the industry a little push and gets the ball rolling for innovation and development which almost certainly benefits us long term.
    And its cost of $41,000. For a car that seats four and has room for one (1) bag of groceries and maybe a makeup bag
    Somehow I think the designers may have a little more information about their target markets need than you- time will tell.
    And the increased burning of coal to generate the electricity needed to recharge
    Not much coal plant activity necessary to power the small engine that generates the electricity that powers the car after the battery has died. In addition electricity is more and more being generated by renewable energy sources and that is a trend that will only grow with technological innovation as time goes on.
    When is this nonsense going to stop ? We didn't learn a thing from the ethanol debacle.
    I would much rather people try, fail, learn and adjust than gripe, complain and do nothing.

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    And the increased burning of coal to generate the electricity needed to recharge these pieces of junk that nobody really wants to buy.
    Solar Trees are being manufactured and sold by several U.S. companies and also responsible for hundreds of U.S jobs. These units provide energy that can charge the cars, help power the building and even sell excess power to the utility company.

    http://solarpowerauthority.com/solar-car-ports-and-electric-cars/

    http://www.jetsongreen.com/2008/06/solar-trees-env.html

    http://gas2.org/2009/10/26/dell-builds-solar-trees-for-parking-lot/

    http://www.enn.com/top_stories/article/16264

    Here is a solar charger under development by Toyota

    http://www.physorg.com/news175848652.html
    Last edited by jimboe7373; 11-20-2010 at 03:16 AM.

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    If it doesn't fit their conservative ethos and/or theory, those short-sighted people will put it down, even if they have to invent the negatives.
    Last edited by threlayer; 12-06-2010 at 03:38 PM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ...
    As to nuclear generation in the US, I assume you are aware that Constellation energy just had to cancel construction plans ( with a French partner ) for a new nuclear generating plant because the US gov't would not guarantee their financing ??? see http://cenvironment.blogspot.com/201...1_archive.html . Yet the gov't could afford to guarantee tens of billions for GM ( on top of outright grants ) and 1/2 billion for Tesla Motors ! One reason cited by the French company for pulling the plug is the comparatively higher costs of bringing a nuclear power plant online in the USA ... higher interest costs on a delayed project schedule, much higher legal costs etc. ... delays and extra costs created by 'green lobby' objections and lawsuits. So the USA is apparently willing to subsidize truly non-green but politically correct hybrid/electric vehicles, but is apparently NOT willing to subsidize truly green but politically incorrect nuclear power.
    There are lots of insurance and financing guarantees needed to restart the USA's nuclear plant building program, which will become vitally necessary in this century. This is one of those many liberal ideas that I disagree with -- that nuclear power cannot become safe enough for us to benefit from. I think they subliminally (and mistakenly) believe they are like nuclear bombs. Some people just cannot accept the idea of new technologies and think of (lame) excuses why not. (Constellation has plants near here, as you know. I have old buddies that work in 2 of them.)
    Last edited by threlayer; 12-06-2010 at 03:39 PM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    In checking this stuff out, I came across some really interesting and creative items:

    http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/...-the-flatiron/ Free public seating and charging for your cell or computer and with WiFi

    http://www.treehugger.com/files/2010...olar-power.php A solar lunchbox that heats and cool your food with solar

    http://planetgreen.discovery.com/tec...tric-cars.html A company developing solar roads, a mile of this road could potentially power 500 homes, in addition to having charging stations for cars anywhere they wanted them. Also in this article some Professors from MIT with a company called "Fast Company" have figured a way send electricity wirelessly, it in the short term it could become possible to charge your car on the solar road while you're driving using Fast Company technology.

    http://www.yankodesign.com/2009/09/10/total-beach-bum/ portable charger good for the beach and your cell, computer, etc.

    .



    Solar Tree, prototype, November 2007, designed by Ross Lovegrove and produced and developed by Artemide polycrystalline solar cells by Sharp. On display at the Piazza della Scala, Milan, Italy. (Photo by David Zanardi)
    Ross Lovegrove and Sharp are now working on the design study for a car that is powered by solar energy.
    Sharp solar had a production volume of 434 megawatts in 2006 and a world market share of 17 percent. It produces PV cells in a factory in Katsuragi, Japan.
    Most of Sharp's modules are used for solar energy systems on roofs, but the company believes that solar cells could soon be used in all areas of everyday life from clothes to satellites - including Christmas trees.


    In the US, SolarCity and Rabbobank have created a partnership to provide free electric charging for electric vehicles traveling between San Francisco and Los Angeles along Highway 101. SolarCity has also bought SolSource Energy, which is in the business of installing charging stations for electric cars

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    ^^^ show me where any of these 'pie in the sky' or gov't subsidy funded demonstration projects are even close to being economically self-sustaining !

    The market will decide who wins and everyone will likely adjust and improve based on those results. The tax credit from the goverment helps give the industry a little push and gets the ball rolling for innovation and development which almost certainly benefits us long term.
    This is ONLY true if development can reach the point of the product / business being economically self-sustaining in the absence of direct and 'stealth' gov't subsidies ! It's one thing to incentivize a young child to stand up on two legs. It's another thing to incentivize a piglet to stand up on two legs. The argument here isn't about discouraging the development of new technologies in general ... it's about facing up to the fact that the electric vehicle in general and Tesla Motors in particular are a huge and ongoing sink-hole for US taxpayer subsidy money.

    Evoking the 'broken window' theorem, if that 1/2 billion in US taxpayer subsidies to Tesla had instead been used to guarantee the financing of Constellation's proposed nuclear plant, it was guaranteed that 10 years down the road that the US would be less dependent on fossil fuels, guaranteed that there would be fewer carbon emissions, guaranteed that reliable electricity would be available at a 'reasonable' price, Constellation investors would be earning higher dividends based solely on the operation of the new nuke plant, and US taxpayers would get every penny of their guarantee money back. This is a self-sustaining win win situation - but it's not going to happen. Instead that 1/2 billion in US taxpayer money resulted in an expensive and impractical 'toy' for the environmentally conscious rich, plus lost federal tax revenues, plus a high probability that the US taxpayers will never see a dollar of their money back.
    Last edited by Melonie; 11-20-2010 at 06:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    ^^^As usual in your quest to be negative and cynical you took the previous post completely out of context, it was only posted to show the cool and creative innovations that are here and will be here shortly. By the way almost all those companies listed are in the U.S. and are providing high paying jobs and are stimulating the economy in thousands of ways in the course of doing business. To my knowledge none of those listed in the previous post are recieving subsidies.

    Once again we are back to switching tack, the original topic was that there would not be innovation to make non-oil fueling cheaper or more efficient and that that technology would not come to America. It's a pretty obvious that both of those points have been shattered. In an case, here is an answer to your request to see a self-sustaining company:

    First Solar, Inc. (Nasdaq: FSLR) today announced its financial results for the third quarter ended September 25, 2010. Third quarter 2010 net sales were $797.9 million, an increase of $210.0 million from the second quarter of 2010, primarily due to increased system sales (driven principally by the sale of the 60 megawatt (AC) Sarnia Phase 2 project in Canada)
    http://investor.firstsolar.com/phoen...8866&highlight=


    This is ONLY true if development can reach the point of the product / business being economically self-sustaining in the absence of direct and 'stealth' gov't subsidies
    You mean like the oil industry which until Obama came in was receiving $12 billion a year in subsidies? There are hundreds and hundreds of green energy firms that are running at a profit. They also have well paid employees. Here's a quick question for you; how much money was generated by the internet when it first came out?. Answer- A lot less than is being generated by green energy. The government gave some incentives to encourage development and venture capitialists supplied capital as they thought it was a good bet. Same is happening in green energy, there are billions invested by venture capital and other firms are raising money through IPO's. Almost all of these firms are self sufficient.

    I'm sure you'll mention government subsidies are involved somewhere and maybe they are, but if so they are not that big and it would not bother me if they were as it makes a lot of sense to have give these companies the best chance to succeed as possible. A short term incentive for the future can pay a big dividend long-term if we're able to even partially forgo foriegn oil and pollution. The government has for years given incentives for people to upgrade their air conditioners and appliances to make them more efficient. The side benefit is millions of jobs, billions collected in sales and payroll taxes and the entire economy stimulated from millions of ancillary transaction. A lot of companies see the future and (future profits) and are investing their own money

    BMW to Invest $560 Million Dollars to Produce an Electric Car
    http://www.treehugger.com/files/2010...ectric-car.php

    I'm sorry if you can't see it but it's the 90's tech boom again- you have an exploding technology and then you have thousands of companies and individuals who are going to supply various products and uses for that technology. Microsoft, Dell, Apple and tens of thousands of other companies made $trillions and employed tens of millions. As more and more electric, hybird and renewable based cars get produced, solar trees, cheap home chargers, solar roads etc. will all be developed, manufactured and sold. It's already happening. London already has 48solar charging points to charge cars, and has plans to saturate all of Norther England with them as they plan to have hundreds of thousands of electric cars on the road in the next few years. Guess what?, someone is going to be building all those cars, and the solar arrays, and installing them. There will be accounting, advertising, legal issues, office space rented, sales people. There will be lots of profit, lots of jobs and a tremendous amount of economic stimulation.

    Evoking the 'broken window' theorem, if that 1/2 billion in US taxpayer subsidies to Tesla had instead been used to guarantee the financing of Constellation's proposed nuclear plant
    Several points here from an article about Constellation:

    It looks like there were several reasons why they backed out including not getting the terms they wanted on "Gov't assistance" in financing the project.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...155178010.html
    "The economics of building a multibillion-dollar nuclear reactors have deteriorated with a sharp drop in the price of natural gas—a common power-plant fuel—and a pullback in electricity demand during the recession."

    "A spokesman for the Office of Management and Budget said it was surprised by Constellation's decision, adding the federal government was working with the company up until being notified of its withdrawal. The office urged Constellation to look at a new set of terms and continue working on the project."

    "A fight also has developed between Constellation and EDF over whether the French company is required to buy 12 power plants"
    Last edited by jimboe7373; 11-20-2010 at 04:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    ^^ It's always more complex than the matter of government assistance. Whether it eventually fails or succeeds mostly depends on market factors and the quality of the effort put into the project.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    Whether it eventually fails or succeeds mostly depends on market factors
    Actually we agree on this point. However, the 'joker in the deck' is the fact that, in Tesla's specific case, US gov't policy re green energy subsidies has A. greatly distorted the actual purchase price of the vehicle versus the actual costs of producing that vehicle ( by a factor of nearly $350,000 per vehicle in the case of Tesla !!! ), B. selectively exempted Tesla owners from paying their 'fair share' of road tax ( thus shifting the burden of road maintenance to gasoline / diesel vehicle owners exclusively ), by shifting $10,000+ of the purchase cost of the vehicle to federal and state taxpayers.

    Also, unless some fundamental changes take place in the global economy, the net result of the 'Beta Testing' lessons of 1000 Tesla roadsters will be to assist foreign owned vehicle manufacturers to expand their profits, and to provide many new jobs in China and South Korea, at the expense of the US taxpayer !


    London already has 48solar charging points to charge cars, and has plans to saturate all of Norther England with them as they plan to have hundreds of thousands of electric cars on the road in the next few years. Guess what?, someone is going to be building all those cars, and the solar arrays, and installing them. There will be accounting, advertising, legal issues, office space rented, sales people. There will be lots of profit, lots of jobs and a tremendous amount of economic stimulation.
    As Spain has already discovered, and as the UK is now facing, in the absence of self-sustaining economics heavy gov't spending on green energy actually depresses the economy. It sucks money away from 'productive' sectors of the economy. The increased gov't debt to fund non-economically viable green energy investments further burdens every sector of the economy - which in the extreme must result in the gov't cutting back spending in other areas ( a very sore subject in the UK right now ! ). As I have repeatedly tried to point out earlier, this is a modern day update of the famous 'broken window' argument ... where one can see the Tesla roadsters, solar trees etc. but one can't see the myriad depressing effect on other sectors of the economy.



    (snip)"March 27 (Bloomberg) -- Subsidizing renewable energy in the U.S. may destroy two jobs for every one created if Spain’s experience with windmills and solar farms is any guide.

    For every new position that depends on energy price supports, at least 2.2 jobs in other industries will disappear, according to a study from King Juan Carlos University in Madrid.

    U.S. President Barack Obama’s 2010 budget proposal contains about $20 billion in tax incentives for clean-energy programs. In Spain, where wind turbines provided 11 percent of power demand last year, generators earn rates as much as 11 times more for renewable energy compared with burning fossil fuels.

    The premiums paid for solar, biomass, wave and wind power - - which are charged to consumers in their bills -- translated into a $774,000 cost for each Spanish “green job” created since 2000, said Gabriel Calzada, an economics professor at the university and author of the report.

    “The loss of jobs could be greater if you account for the amount of lost industry that moves out of the country due to higher energy prices,” he said in an interview.

    Spain’s Acerinox SA, the nation’s largest stainless-steel producer, blamed domestic energy costs for deciding to expand in South Africa and the U.S., according to the study."(snip)


    In the specific case of Tesla / electric vehicles, price support mechanisms will soon expand to charging 'normal' electricity customers higher rates in order to subsidize the actual costs of powering electric vehicle chargers, in a manner similar to the current situation of charging 'normal' electricity customers higher rates in order to subsidize the actual costs of transporting and backing up 'unreliable' solar and wind power.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 11-20-2010 at 09:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    ^^^^ Are you aware of how many decades the U.S. government has been subsidizing the airlines, oil companies and farmers?.

    There are thousands of green tech companies currently operating in the U.S., the vast majority of them are operating without any subsidies and have either raised their own funds, taken out loans are made public offerings. They are innovating and improving technology on an almost daily basis and are are responsible for creating tens of thousands of high paying jobs and resulting in the economy being stimulated with billions of dollars. There are hundreds of green tech companies that are self sustaining and profitable.

    While gov't incentives and subsidies are definitely needed to get the ball moving in order to make it a mass movement AT THIS TIME, it's very unlikely it will be that way forever. If you invest in only what is most convenient and practical today you will never have innovation or improvment in the future. Nobody is proposing permanent tax credits and subsidies- it's only to get the ball rolling- tens of billions of private dollars are being in invested with companies to improve the technology and it will consistently get cheaper and more efficient. As an example- Toyota has an all-hydrogen car that 10 years ago cost them $1 million to manufactur, they now have it down to $120,000, they say in 5 years they'll have it to $20,000 (Please don't start an argument over hydrogen as fuel, I was just making an example of how technology is improving).

    The solar trees placed in a parking lot pay themselves off in about 3-5 years and after that they are profitable. There is going to be a lot of lot owners getting these installed for profit purposes. Even if the electric car thing dies, they still can power their builing and sell excess to the utility- so there are going to be tons of them all over the place anyway. That will make the cars that much more feasible. When the engine cost goes from $10,000 down to $1,500 and other components and pieces are available more inexpensively they'll cost the same or less as a standard car and fuel costs will be 70% cheaper- maybe more by that time if improvments continue. A benefit of this whole thing is that it will help keep oil prices in check as if they go up to high- more money and more speed will be directed towards renewables.

    Also factored into your "total cost" analysis you've got to include how much we spend between diplomacy, our military and other factors to keep our oil supply steady. That's in the $Trillions.

    I don't know much about the Spanish Wind program, but I can tell you that Panama is getting 70% of their electricity from hydro and once the plants under construction are done, we'll be over 100% and exporting it. Brazil is currently about 80% power from hydro.
    http://www.hydroworld.com/index/disp...f_the_hot.html

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    Also factored into your "total cost" analysis you've got to include how much we spend between diplomacy, our military and other factors to keep our oil supply steady. That's in the $Trillions.
    Oh absolutely !!! However, that leads us to Boeing as yet another 'welfare case' company . Fortunately for US taxpayers ( although potentially not so fortunate for AIPAC ) , the latest wave of financial subsidies will be paid for by the Saudis ( with US petrodollars )



    (snip)"The Obama administration has quietly forged ahead with its proposal to sell $60 billion worth of fighter jets and attack helicopters to Saudi Arabia unhampered by Congress, despite questions raised in legislative inquiries and in an internal congressional report about the wisdom of the deal.

    The massive arms deal would be the single largest sale of weapons to a foreign nation in the history of the U.S., outfitting Saudi Arabia with a fully modernized, potent new air force.

    "Our six-decade-long security relationship with Saudi Arabia is a primary security pillar in the region," Defense Sec. Robert M. Gates and Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton wrote in a Nov. 16 letter to congress. "This package continues that tradition." (snip)


    I would also add that there is a WORLD of difference between 'reliable' low maintenance 50+ year lifetime hydropower and 'unreliable' high maintenance 20- year lifetime solar and wind ... but as you say that's a topic for a different thread.

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    Dollars represent value. They don't represent labor. Values can be changed from one set to another. If we decide that saving energy is valuable, the dollars will flow to that sector.

    Similarly if we decide that getting high on drugs/alcohol, or being entertained, or improving our health, is valuable, money will flow there. And there will be jobs and people will get paid.

    You need to see the big picture before any of the little objects in the picture make any real sense.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    Who cares about AIPAC? That's in the interest of a foreign government, one that refuses to cooperate with the US on many important fronts, and sends billions out of the country to support it's terrirotial expansionist imperatives. They ought to have trouble.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    If we decide that saving energy is valuable, the dollars will flow to that sector.
    dollars will only flow to that sector voluntarily if it makes economic sense to do so. If that economic sense stems from REAL savings, then wonderful. If however, that economic sense only makes partial sense as long as the US gov't extracts tax money from US taxpayers and 'gives' it to that sector, then money WILL flow into that sector but involuntarily !!! And the US taxpayer money that is forced into that sector by gov't mandate is lost to any other productive purpose.

    You need to see the big picture before any of the little objects in the picture make any real sense
    and the big picture is that 1/2 billion in taxpayer money that could have been spent productively in other areas ( like increased consumption / investment / debt retirement / insuring the construction of a new nuclear plant etc.) is being involuntarily extracted from US taxpayers in order to subsidize the production of a 'coal fired' vehicle that costs $100,000 per copy ... plus a $7,500 subsidy being paid to every rich US vehicle buyer ... and with a significant percentage of the vehicle's production labor and materials costs flowing to foreign component suppliers and their foreign employees instead of to the company's US workers or to US component suppliers.

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    Historically railroads and airlines were given subsidies in several forms to help start those businesses. It was an investment. I am not talking recent, just that there are a huge amounts of precedents in initially subsidizing useful industries. It's amazing to me that conservatives, who like to delve in the past, ignore the historical information does not support their current thrusts.
    Not true. In the U.S., rail began in the early 19th century as private enterprise with little government assistance. In the late 19th century, certain rail companies were given monopolies for expansion, but that is not the same thing as starting them. Even during that period private rail companies generally were more successful than government-assisted companies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenathefabulous View Post
    we are all perverts in the SC in my opinion. Hes a pervert, you're a pervert, I'm a pervert.

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    Default Re: Welfare Case Companies - #1 Tesla Motors

    Just a note about Tesla Motors and the Tesla motor. Nikola Tesla, who this company is named after, invented a type of mechanical motor, referred to the Tesla motor. The company is not using this motor in their electric cars, of course, although the one they are using may be of a type invented by Tesla, since he also invented the AC induction electric motor, the basic AC type of motor now in wide use. Actually, Tesla's AC electrical motor was the electrical analog of his mechanical motor, which he invented first.

    The Tesla motor is an interesting subject in itself. Technically it is a turbine. It has only one moving part (the rotor and shaft it is keyed into) and requires no engine oil (only oil for shaft bearings), It provides 20 times the power of conventional steam or reciprocating internal combustion engines of equal weight. It requires little maintenance, since there are no close-fitting parts and there is only one moving part and it's method of energy conversion does not involve impulses on it's surfaces. It is extremely robust due to it's construction and method of operation. It can be driven by any kind of fluid - compressed air, water, steam, combusted gases. It can reach full speed, stop and reverse direction very quickly.

    In reverse operation, it can be used as an efficient pump and be used to pump fluids which other pumps are too sensitive to withstand, such as fluids with particulates, and begins pumping without the preparation period time conventional types of pumps require in some applications.

    Tesla was one of the first (if not the first) engineers to advocate the use of mechanical engines in line with electrical engines as the most efficient form of motive energy for vehicles. (Modern diesel trains use this arrangement.) Tesla showed that using an electrical motor driven by a mechanical motor, via a generator driven by the mechanical motor and supplying electrical power to the electrical motor, is more efficient than a mechanical motor alone. Steam ships of his era adopted this practice.

    Note that this is not the same thing as the system used in hybrid electrical/gas automobiles, which merely switch between electric and gas engines or use both in tandem, with both directly driving the transmission.

    So the Tesla engine uses almost no oil, delivers twenty times the power for the same quantity of fuel, has a long operational life and requires little or no maintenance, I wonder why it is not in wide use.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenathefabulous View Post
    we are all perverts in the SC in my opinion. Hes a pervert, you're a pervert, I'm a pervert.

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