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Thread: Eating the Seed Corn

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    Default Eating the Seed Corn

    As much as I and fellow conservatives favor budgetary restraint, it is clear that we are starving the wrong beast. We are not spending enough in two essential areas - transportation and scientific and technical education. Obama and the Dems missed a golden opportunity to fund both with ARRA. Instead, as I have documented , too much money went to preserving state sinecures and other bureaucratic featherbedding.

    Spending on scientific research , particularly at the university level is DECLINING.
    Undergrad and graduate degrees awarded in science and especially engineering by U.S. colleges and universities is declining. According to a recent study, Chinese 15 year olds in Shanghai ranked Number 1 in science, math and reading. U.S. students ranked in the 20's.

    It used to be that a high school diploma was a guarantor of a decent paying job. No more. Now it's a bachelor's degree. Unemployment among those with college degrees is only 5% compared to an overall rate of 9.8%.

    While Mark Zuckerberg's gift to Newark's school system of $100 million is admirable, it needs to be duplicated at least 1000 fold around the country to have a real impact. And THAT assumes that the money is spent wisely.

    As we have documented in another thread, states currently experiencing budget crises are CUTTING grants and aid to their state University systems. The very places that must be adequately fiunded if we are just to keep pace with the rest of the world.

    One reason Japan experienced not one, but two lost decades is a failure to innovate. We had Microsoft, Google, Facebook and numerous other start-ups that developed and grew into multi-billion dollar corporations. During the same time period Japan had none. The only thing holding China back and enabling us to keep pace is our innovation while they primarily copy what we and others are doing. Yes, they are doing a lot of it by stealing and infringing on patents and copyrights. Japan started the same way until they developed an ability to innovate and develop new and better products. Thus today they have Toyota, SONY etc. Given time the Chinese will do likewise.

    In transportation the picture is even worse. One of the most important reasons for our industrial growth was a modern tranportations system second to none : The Erie Canal ; The Transcontinental Railroad ; St. Lawrence Seaway; Panama Canal etc. The modern equivalent is high speed rail and we are decades behind Europe, Japan and China. DECADES Behind ! Here's the really scary part : At present it is doubtful that we have the design, management and construction capacity to duplicate what the French, Chinese and others have done. We couldn't even get a 9 mile Hudson River tunnel project done while the British are preparing a 13 mile Crossrail project under London's center. A $25 billion project that was not touched by recent budget cuts.

    We have no alternative. Our airlines cannot add any more domestic flights because there aren't enough gates to handle the traffic. We cannot even maintain the roads and bridges we have now, let alone build enough new ones.
    Our love affair with the automobile and airplane has come back to bite us.

    What to do ? I am going to commit political and economic heresy and join Ben Stein and others and support a Millionaire's Sur-Tax but with an essential kicker. That every penny collected go ONLY to paying for scientific education and research and to develop high speed rail. Just a modest 2% sur tax on incomes over $1 million would pay for what we need in these two areas. Millionaires could be encouraged to pay it for one very simple reason - SELF INTEREST. If they want to continue being millionaires and let their children and grandchildren enjoy similar success we must maintain and regain our technological edge. If they balk, they can be further encouraged with just one word : " VENEZUELA". Because that is exactly where we are headed otherwise.

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    Default Re: Eating the Seed Corn

    ^^^ for better or worse, there are actually a LOT of contributing reasons why science and especially engineering have 'sagged' in America.

    - from all of the guys I have known, being an engineer means actually working hard for a living ( in terms of hours as well as responsibility / stress ). It means living with the consequences of your mistakes. It also typically means a fair amount of travel, as well as having to get hot and dirty. And in America's 'real economy', the pay rates available for the above fall far short of the pay rates available to other professions arguably involving less cerebral investment and definitely involving less hours / less personal responsibility / less stress. I'm obviously talking about attorneys, bankers / brokers, upper management, gov't positions, auditors / CPA's etc. This is arguably the reason that, while American universities do in fact educate excellent engineers, a fairly high percentage of engineering students are of foreign citizenship, and intend to apply their engineering knowledge in foreign countries.

    - there is also an increasing issue for engineers that budgetary corporate / gov't masters as well as gov't regulations often compromise their 'freedom' to 'do the job the right way'.

    - there is a similar issue for scientists, where budgetary corporate / gov't masters as well as gov't regulations often compromise their 'freedom' to pursue scientific research where the facts / discoveries run counter to vested interests.

    As to the development of high speed rail in America, a basic profitability / feasibility question arises. If the combined economics and logistics of high speed rail in America can beat out the economics and logistics of commercial air travel and/or personal road travel, then it is a worthwhile investment. Obviously, rapidly rising fuel prices work in favor of rail. However, the history of gov't subsidized 'regulated monopoly' passenger rail operation has been anything but economically efficient. And unless and until the availability of reliable mass transit ( including high speed rail ) makes it possible for individuals to make that major economic savings leap of not needing to purchase and maintain a personal vehicle, high speed passenger rail will remain a 'hard sell' for most of the country. Granted that certain corridors might theoretically benefit greatly i.e. Boston / New Haven / NYC / Newark / Philly / Baltimore / DC.

    PS millionaires are 'portable', and so are their children. Increasingly, they can have the 'best of both worlds' by leaving the high tax rates and declining infrastructure of America behind ... in favor of low tax rate fantastic infrastructure locations like Dubai, Switzerland, etc.


    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-04-2011 at 04:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Eating the Seed Corn

    How about a ten percent value added (consumption) tax on everything? Put two percent of that towards innovation and transportation infrastructure, and put the other eight percent towards paying off the debt. When the debt's gone, take the money that was being used to pay the interest (the new budgetary surplus) and put it towards free university education for everyone, or daycare, or healthcare...or a combo of all three.
    My 2 cents.

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    Default Re: Eating the Seed Corn

    ^^^ is that additional 10% on top of the ( up to ) 10% combined state and local sales tax rates that already exist in some areas of the US ? On top of the ~9% state and local income tax rates that already exist ? On top of the ~33% federal income tax rates that already exist ? On top of the ~7% SSI 'payroll' tax rates that already exist ?

    An inevitable point about political palatibility must be made ... that increasing 'consumption' taxes affects the poor, middle class, and rich alike. In contrast, increasing 'ordinary income' taxes primarily affects the middle class, and increasing 'capital gains' taxes primarily affects the rich.

    Another inevitable point about human nature must be made ... that increasing the total tax burden above the 50% level tends to disincentivize hard work and 'risky' entrepreneurial activities. It also provides a strong incentive for both capital and hard working productive individuals to exit the tax jurisdiction !

    In truth, America has reached the point where it simply isn't possible for non-millionaire US taxpayers to shoulder a greater percentage of tax burden without fundamentally changing the American paradigm. This means that A. the only 'fertile' area of increased taxation is the very rich ( who may respond by exiting the jurisdiction ), or B. reallocating existing tax revenues toward the areas you mention by REDUCING the amount of tax revenues currently being spent in different areas.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-05-2011 at 02:50 AM.

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    Default Re: Eating the Seed Corn

    What really kills me is that Americans bitch about the possibility of raising taxes. Are you fucking retarted? Do you realize that Canada pays approximatly 1% more for free healthcare (which according to the WHO is WAAAY better than our shitty system, look it upl) They also have amazingly cheap utilities, unlike here in the US where your damn water bill can bankrupt you. Australia is similar....as are many countries whose healthcare exceeds ours. Not saying some of these countries don't have outrageous tax rates (France), but many are bout the same as ours.
    "I hear you calling and it's needles and pins. I wanna hurt you just to hear you screaming my name...You're poision. but I don't wanna break these chains.... I wanna love you but I'd better not touch."

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    Default Re: Eating the Seed Corn

    Quote Originally Posted by princessjas View Post
    What really kills me is that Americans bitch about the possibility of raising taxes. Are you fucking retarted? Do you realize that Canada pays approximatly 1% more for free healthcare (which according to the WHO is WAAAY better than our shitty system, look it upl) They also have amazingly cheap utilities, unlike here in the US where your damn water bill can bankrupt you. Australia is similar....as are many countries whose healthcare exceeds ours. Not saying some of these countries don't have outrageous tax rates (France), but many are bout the same as ours.
    BALONEY ! Canada's difficulties and shortcomings with and in their health care system are very well documented. Not as bad as Britain's but their system relies heavily on rationing care.

    As for their utilities, Canada uses much more hydro-power than we do. Political considerations prevent states like N.Y. from buying cheap Canadian power.

    All the other countries pointed to by the Libs have their own problems. Many worse than ours: higher unemployment and lower economic growth.

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    Default Re: Eating the Seed Corn

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ for better or worse, there are actually a LOT of contributing reasons why science and especially engineering have 'sagged' in America.

    - from all of the guys I have known, being an engineer means actually working hard for a living ( in terms of hours as well as responsibility / stress ). It means living with the consequences of your mistakes. It also typically means a fair amount of travel, as well as having to get hot and dirty. And in America's 'real economy', the pay rates available for the above fall far short of the pay rates available to other professions arguably involving less cerebral investment and definitely involving less hours / less personal responsibility / less stress. I'm obviously talking about attorneys, bankers / brokers, upper management, gov't positions, auditors / CPA's etc. This is arguably the reason that, while American universities do in fact educate excellent engineers, a fairly high percentage of engineering students are of foreign citizenship, and intend to apply their engineering knowledge in foreign countries.

    - there is also an increasing issue for engineers that budgetary corporate / gov't masters as well as gov't regulations often compromise their 'freedom' to 'do the job the right way'.

    - there is a similar issue for scientists, where budgetary corporate / gov't masters as well as gov't regulations often compromise their 'freedom' to pursue scientific research where the facts / discoveries run counter to vested interests.

    As to the development of high speed rail in America, a basic profitability / feasibility question arises. If the combined economics and logistics of high speed rail in America can beat out the economics and logistics of commercial air travel and/or personal road travel, then it is a worthwhile investment. Obviously, rapidly rising fuel prices work in favor of rail. However, the history of gov't subsidized 'regulated monopoly' passenger rail operation has been anything but economically efficient. And unless and until the availability of reliable mass transit ( including high speed rail ) makes it possible for individuals to make that major economic savings leap of not needing to purchase and maintain a personal vehicle, high speed passenger rail will remain a 'hard sell' for most of the country. Granted that certain corridors might theoretically benefit greatly i.e. Boston / New Haven / NYC / Newark / Philly / Baltimore / DC.

    PS millionaires are 'portable', and so are their children. Increasingly, they can have the 'best of both worlds' by leaving the high tax rates and declining infrastructure of America behind ... in favor of low tax rate fantastic infrastructure locations like Dubai, Switzerland, etc.


    ~
    All true but the Immigration system for one has gotten ridiculous. We literally hand over most of the seats in our engineering and science programs to foreign born students and then require most of them to leave after they graduate. We can and should encourage them to stay. As I documented in another thread months ago ( was challenged on and PROVED ) every civil engineer on the payroll of NYC is FOREIGN born.

    As for high speed rail, the Boston to Washington corridor and San Francisco to San Diego are the most fertile and potentially profitable areas for implementation.Obviously it would have to compete with air travel which is most likely to INCREASE in cost. If memory serves the ACELA is now able to hit a top speed of 120 mph but only on limited stretches of the run between Boston and D.C. The two biggest problems are sharing of the track with freight traffic and inadequate track maintenance to permit higher speeds. And btw, 120 mph is nothing compared to what Chinese, Japanese and European trains are capable of doing. 200 mph has become the standard AVERAGE speed with top speeds close to 300 mph. I pointed to HSR as the most glaring example of where and how we have fallen behind the rest of the world and one chock full of corollary benefits if we ever get serious : increased employment; reduced highway congestion and cleaner air.

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    Default Re: Eating the Seed Corn

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    BALONEY ! Canada's difficulties and shortcomings with and in their health care system are very well documented. Not as bad as Britain's but their system relies heavily on rationing care.

    As for their utilities, Canada uses much more hydro-power than we do. Political considerations prevent states like N.Y. from buying cheap Canadian power.

    All the other countries pointed to by the Libs have their own problems. Many worse than ours: higher unemployment and lower economic growth.
    Sooooo, your basic argument is that they are smarter than us and use their resources better? I've researched their big healthcare issues and they are nothing but bs. Certainly no worse than I've experienced here. A few years ago, a man went to the ER here, at a supposedly good hospital. He thought he was having a heart attack. He and his wife told them this. He proceeded to turn dark blue, told the nurses a dozen times that he "really thought he needed to be seen?" He died about 6-7 houra after gettiing there. Withou ever being seen.
    "I hear you calling and it's needles and pins. I wanna hurt you just to hear you screaming my name...You're poision. but I don't wanna break these chains.... I wanna love you but I'd better not touch."

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    Default Re: Eating the Seed Corn

    Quote Originally Posted by hockeybobby View Post
    How about a ten percent value added (consumption) tax on everything? Put two percent of that towards innovation and transportation infrastructure, and put the other eight percent towards paying off the debt. When the debt's gone, take the money that was being used to pay the interest (the new budgetary surplus) and put it towards free university education for everyone, or daycare, or healthcare...or a combo of all three.
    My 2 cents.
    I'm sorry but this a lousy idea on so many levels. As Mel points out, a VAT is a regressive tax. Secondly, the best way to reduce the debt is control spending. Cats do not bark. Politicians do not return unspent funds to the Treasury. They spend every nickel they can get their hands on.

    I do not want to provide "FREE" anything to anyone. That is a big part of our problem. We have too many beneficiaries and too few contributors. The entitlement mentality we have created in this country is bad enough.

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    Default Re: Eating the Seed Corn

    Quote Originally Posted by princessjas View Post
    Sooooo, your basic argument is that they are smarter than us and use their resources better? I've researched their big healthcare issues and they are nothing but bs. Certainly no worse than I've experienced here. A few years ago, a man went to the ER here, at a supposedly good hospital. He thought he was having a heart attack. He and his wife told them this. He proceeded to turn dark blue, told the nurses a dozen times that he "really thought he needed to be seen?" He died about 6-7 houra after gettiing there. Withou ever being seen.
    Assuming the truth of your story, I'm sure his wife has an excellent lawsuit. Small comfort I know but stories like that occur every day in Canada , Britain and many other countries with socialized medicine. In most, the folks consigned to work in the hospitals are just as overworked and underpaid as their American counterparts. Often more so.

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    Default Re: Eating the Seed Corn

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Assuming the truth of your story, I'm sure his wife has an excellent lawsuit. Small comfort I know but stories like that occur every day in Canada , Britain and many other countries with socialized medicine. In most, the folks consigned to work in the hospitals are just as overworked and underpaid as their American counterparts. Often more so.
    Assume nothing. Look up Logan General in WV and you will find dozens of these suits. She had a pretty good lawsuit, but you don't win them in this area.
    "I hear you calling and it's needles and pins. I wanna hurt you just to hear you screaming my name...You're poision. but I don't wanna break these chains.... I wanna love you but I'd better not touch."

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    Default Re: Eating the Seed Corn

    Quote Originally Posted by princessjas View Post
    Assume nothing. Look up Logan General in WV and you will find dozens of these suits. She had a pretty good lawsuit, but you don't win them in this area.
    I don't know all the facts. Perhaps you do and can cite to something a little more concrete. I DO know that malpractice suits are hard for plaintiffs to win. Something like 75% of cases that go to verdict ( that are NOT settled ) result in a defense verdict.

    All that being said, based on the facts as you posted them, the triage nurse or P.A. may very well have screwed up Big Time !

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    Default Re: Eating the Seed Corn

    your basic argument is that they are smarter than us and use their resources better?
    There ARE some significant differences. For example, Canadian and Australian gov't budgets are augmented by 'royalty' payments on hydropower, oil, gas, coal, copper, nickel etc. etc. that are drawn from gov't lands ... whereas the US not only does not receive many such 'royalty' payments but must also pay world market prices for oil, gas etc. imported from Canada !!

    As to the 'economic insanity' of US engineers, indeed American citizen engineers must pay a good portion of their own tuitions ... and as such 'can't afford' to work at present depressed pay rates while paying down student loans, buying a house etc. On the other hand, foreign born engineers typically have tuitions paid by their own foreign gov'ts, and can thus afford to work at depressed pay rates for comparatively short periods of time after graduation ( where there are no student loans to repay, and no need to buy a house in the USA since they plan on / will be forced to leave the USA in a matter of a few years) to gain professional experience prior to starting a 'serious' long term engineering career outside of the USA.

    As to Canadian health care 'rationing', the proof of the pudding is the number of Canadians who take out second mortgages on their Canadian homes in order to cross the US border and pay out of pocket for medical procedures which the Canadian gov't has denied them ( or forced them to wait for to the point where actually outliving the wait time becomes questionable ).

    On the topic of high speed rail, indeed the two viable corridors have major problems with real world implementation. The first is the cost / ability to exercise eminent domain powers to secure a new rail right of way where the high speed virtue of such trains could actually be utilized. The second is the cost / delays to receive federal and state environmental impact approvals for such a right of way. Hell, it's impossible to build a 'fully funded' ( by private investors ) high voltage transmission line in this area even though such additional power transmission capacity is badly needed for system reliability reasons !!!

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    Default Re: Eating the Seed Corn

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    There ARE some significant differences. For example, Canadian and Australian gov't budgets are augmented by 'royalty' payments on hydropower, oil, gas, coal, copper, nickel etc. etc. that are drawn from gov't lands ... whereas the US not only does not receive many such 'royalty' payments but must also pay world market prices for oil, gas etc. imported from Canada !!

    As to the 'economic insanity' of US engineers, indeed American citizen engineers must pay a good portion of their own tuitions ... and as such 'can't afford' to work at present depressed pay rates while paying down student loans, buying a house etc. On the other hand, foreign born engineers typically have tuitions paid by their own foreign gov'ts, and can thus afford to work at depressed pay rates for comparatively short periods of time after graduation ( where there are no student loans to repay, and no need to buy a house in the USA since they plan on / will be forced to leave the USA in a matter of a few years) to gain professional experience prior to starting a 'serious' long term engineering career outside of the USA.

    As to Canadian health care 'rationing', the proof of the pudding is the number of Canadians who take out second mortgages on their Canadian homes in order to cross the US border and pay out of pocket for medical procedures which the Canadian gov't has denied them ( or forced them to wait for to the point where actually outliving the wait time becomes questionable ).

    On the topic of high speed rail, indeed the two viable corridors have major problems with real world implementation. The first is the cost / ability to exercise eminent domain powers to secure a new rail right of way where the high speed virtue of such trains could actually be utilized. The second is the cost / delays to receive federal and state environmental impact approvals for such a right of way. Hell, it's impossible to build a 'fully funded' ( by private investors ) high voltage transmission line in this area even though such additional power transmission capacity is badly needed for system reliability reasons !!!
    Correct on all points, as usual.

    As to the impediments to HSR, part of getting "serious" would by necessity involve issuing the necessary waivers to get around most of the environmental roadblocks.

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    Default Re: Eating the Seed Corn

    As to the impediments to HSR, part of getting "serious" would by necessity involve issuing the necessary waivers to get around most of the environmental roadblocks.
    ^^^ which, based on previous high voltage power line environmental protest history, would basically require a federal override of 'blue' state environmental opponents. That ain't gonna happen within the next 2 years anyhow. Meanwhile the High Speed Rail proponents are resorting to site proposals that don't face the same level of environmental opposition ( like SoCal to Vegas through mostly desert ) but which make little or no economic sense in terms of initial plus operating costs versus probable passenger levels versus feasible rail fare levels ( versus loss leader airline ticket cost ).

    BTW, the states of Wisconsin and Ohio both rejected High Speed Rail proposals at the state level because they recognized that, once the front end federal subsidy funds were spent, the ongoing operation of High Speed Rail would be a net drain on state coffers due to the necessity of ongoing state gov't subsidy payments to 'cover' for unprofitable future High Speed Rail operations and maintenance.

    Circling back on topic, these days the 'legal immigration' question to attempt to permanently retain foreign graduates of US engineering schools really isn't a feasible answer anymore. The reason of course is that once those foreign graduates have obtained their US engineering degrees and some credible real world US engineering work experience, they have the opportunity of moving back to their home country where the available pay rate plus low income tax rates plus low costs of living make it possible to build a long term career plus buy a nice house plus affording to raise a family. On the other hand, staying in the USA permanently while working at 'depressed' pay rates ( by former US standards ... essentially pay rates that are not very far above the available pay rates to an experienced US educated engineer in their home country ) that do NOT allow for the same opportunities because US / state income tax rates and US / state costs of living are so much higher !

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-05-2011 at 02:15 PM.

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    Default Re: Eating the Seed Corn

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Correct on all points, as usual.

    As to the impediments to HSR, part of getting "serious" would by necessity involve issuing the necessary waivers to get around most of the environmental roadblocks.
    No, she's incorrect on most points as usual. She just makes stuff up based on her ideology, without knowing how true it is. Engineers do very well in America. Here's a page showing average starting salaries:

    http://www.solidsmack.com/design-new...class-of-2010/

    According to the article, average starting salaries are $20,000 to $30,000 higher than they were 10 years ago, not depressed. Some of the countries foreign born engineers come from have higher taxes than the US. China's top income tax rate is 45%, compared to 33% in the US.

    I'm not sure, but I think that revenue from oil and mineral rights in Canada goes to the provincial governments rather than the federal government. In the US, states with oil, such as Alaska and Texas, get a significant amount of revenue from taxes and royalties on oil.

    I also doubt that there are a significant number of Canadians that are taking out second mortgages on their homes to travel to the US for medical care.
    Last edited by eagle2; 01-05-2011 at 10:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Eating the Seed Corn

    ^^^ we've been over the topic of cherry picked NACE starting salary data in previous threads. Reading the 'real world' posts responding to your link story, where every single engineer posting states that the self-serving NACE figures are inflated ( NACE is after all attempting to 'sell' engineering college attendance / tuition ) is far more representative of the 'truth'.

    Your attempted tax rate comparison is also misleading and fragmentary. As I actually pointed out earlier in this thread, the combined US total tax rates now often approach 50% where federal income tax, state income tax, SSI 'payroll' tax, state and local sales taxes, etc. are summed up. And taxes are only one half of the financial equation - the other is local 'cost of living', which is far lower in 'developing' countries than in 'developed' countries. I can relate from personal experience that one can 'live like a queen' on a $50k per year income in a 'developing' country, whereas attempting to pay off college loans, purchase a house and raise a family in a state like New York on a $60k income ( before taxes ) is a major struggle.

    As to natural resource 'royalties', it really doesn't matter what unit of government receives these royalties. The fact is that every dollar of 'royalty' payments received offsets the gov'ts need to tax or borrow an extra dollar in order to spend the same total number of dollars on gov't services.

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    Default Re: Eating the Seed Corn

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ we've been over the topic of cherry picked NACE starting salary data in previous threads. Reading the 'real world' posts responding to your link story, where every single engineer posting states that the self-serving NACE figures are inflated ( NACE is after all attempting to 'sell' engineering college attendance / tuition ) is far more representative of the 'truth'.
    The list reports average salaries, which means some people were offered more and some people were offered less. None of the posters specified which type of engineering they studied or where they were working. Here's what one graduate student in civil engineering said about what his classmates were making:

    http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/...-engineer.html

    "im a structural eng major (masters stanford), this year my classmates are getting low-mid 60k in CA and high 50s to low 60s in NY. If you just have a BS you should probably subtract 5k from that. "

    This sounds pretty close to the results from NACE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Your attempted tax rate comparison is also misleading and fragmentary. As I actually pointed out earlier in this thread, the combined US total tax rates now often approach 50% where federal income tax, state income tax, SSI 'payroll' tax, state and local sales taxes, etc. are summed up.
    No, you're the one whose putting out misleading numbers in regard to taxes. You put out the highest rates for the wealthiest people, as if it was common to pay these rates. Engineering graduates making $50-60,000 a year don't pay anywhere near 33% in federal income tax, or a combined rate of 50%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    And taxes are only one half of the financial equation - the other is local 'cost of living', which is far lower in 'developing' countries than in 'developed' countries. I can relate from personal experience that one can 'live like a queen' on a $50k per year income in a 'developing' country, whereas attempting to pay off college loans, purchase a house and raise a family in a state like New York on a $60k income ( before taxes ) is a major struggle.
    Someone who purchased a house and and is raising a family on $60k would be paying very little in federal income tax with all of the deductions they would get. You're living in central America. There aren't large numbers of scientists and engineers coming to the US from central America, and there aren't many jobs available for scientists and engineers in central America.

    I work in a technical field and I have co-workers who came here from India and China. I don't know a single one who wants to go back to their country and work there, rather than work in the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    As to natural resource 'royalties', it really doesn't matter what unit of government receives these royalties. The fact is that every dollar of 'royalty' payments received offsets the gov'ts need to tax or borrow an extra dollar in order to spend the same total number of dollars on gov't services.
    You greatly exaggerate how much revenue Canada gets from oil, probably because you don't want to acknowledge that a country where citizens get paid good working wages, and the government doesn't allow unlimited pollution, can be successful. Oil exports only make up 2.9% of its GDP. In addition, eastern Canada imports a significant amount oil.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Canada#Energy

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    ^^^ Regardless of whose facts and figures relating to salaries, taxes, cost of living etc. are closer to the truth, the ISSUES that are supposed to be dealt with in this thread remain clear. We are NOT producing an adequate number of engineers and scientific researchers. We are NOT investing sufficiently in scientific research and education.

    Please read the National Academy of Sciences report ; "Rising Above The Gathering Storm, Revisited" which is really an addendum to their 2005 report on declining science and engineering research. Let's ALL note that the decline started BEFORE Clinton and all of it predated the current recession.

    According to Nobel Laureate Julius Axelrod : " 99% of the discoveries are made by 1% of the scientists. "

    Fact- U.S. colleges and universities award 16% of their degrees in the natural sciences or engineering. South Korea awards 38% and in China it is 47%.

    Fact- The U.S. ranks 27th among developed nations based on the above.

    Fact - Since 1970, federal support for research in the natural sciences and engineering has declined by over 50%. Now some fo that decline results directly from decreased defense spending and research but even if we take such spending out of the equation, federal support has been declining for DECADES !

    Fact- State support of public universities has been declining for the last 20 years. it was at the lowest level since 1980 BEFORE the recent recession.( Just what and where were those "essential" jobs preserved by ARRA ? )

    Fact - Endowments at major research universities DECLINED in 2008 and 2009.

    Fact- One of the major reasons for Japanese stagnation since 1990 has been a failure to innovate. Where are the Japanese equivalents to Microsoft, Netscape, Apple, Google or even Facebook ? If they were Japanese instead of American companies, what would Japan's growth rate have been ?

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    Default Re: Eating the Seed Corn

    ^^^ All I can say on the 'flip side' is that indeed '99% of new discoveries / inventions / developments come from 1% of engineers / scientists'. Fortunately, regardless of past numbers of engineers and scientists in various countries, the 'lion's share' of the 1%-ers have been from America. And their research was primarily driven by R&D spending by defense contractors, R&D spending by drug companies, and R&D spending by entrepreneurs. Little contribution has come from R&D efforts directly administered by a US gov't agency ( exception NASA, although much of that was from NASA contractors ), by US public universities etc., although they chew up huge amounts of whatever taxpayer money has been allocated.

    The larger problem IMHO is not a lack of new discoveries / inventions by Americans. Instead it is the real world forces which not only allow but encourage the maturation and development of these new American discoveries / inventions via lower cost overseas production and service facilities. Unless and until the differentials in tax rates, energy costs, environmental compliance costs, mandated worker pay rates and benefit costs etc. become somewhat more equal, the saga of the home computer / cell phone / solar cell / lithium battery is just going to be repeated for every future discovery / invention.

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    Default Re: Eating the Seed Corn

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ All I can say on the 'flip side' is that indeed '99% of new discoveries / inventions / developments come from 1% of engineers / scientists'. Fortunately, regardless of past numbers of engineers and scientists in various countries, the 'lion's share' of the 1%-ers have been from America. And their research was primarily driven by R&D spending by defense contractors, R&D spending by drug companies, and R&D spending by entrepreneurs. Little contribution has come from R&D efforts directly administered by a US gov't agency ( exception NASA, although much of that was from NASA contractors ), by US public universities etc., although they chew up huge amounts of whatever taxpayer money has been allocated.
    How do you know this? The mapping of the human genome was a government funded/administered project. The internet started as a government funded/administered project. You don't consider these significant contributions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    The larger problem IMHO is not a lack of new discoveries / inventions by Americans. Instead it is the real world forces which not only allow but encourage the maturation and development of these new American discoveries / inventions via lower cost overseas production and service facilities. Unless and until the differentials in tax rates, energy costs, environmental compliance costs, mandated worker pay rates and benefit costs etc. become somewhat more equal, the saga of the home computer / cell phone / solar cell / lithium battery is just going to be repeated for every future discovery / invention.
    Again, you're making stuff up based on your ideology. There is still a significant amount of manufacturing done in high-wage, developed countries. What the US government should be doing is supporting high wage jobs here, not bring wages down to the level of third wold countries.
    Last edited by eagle2; 01-09-2011 at 09:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Eating the Seed Corn

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    ^^^ Regardless of whose facts and figures relating to salaries, taxes, cost of living etc. are closer to the truth, the ISSUES that are supposed to be dealt with in this thread remain clear. We are NOT producing an adequate number of engineers and scientific researchers. We are NOT investing sufficiently in scientific research and education.
    I agree. I've been saying all along that our country is going to fall behind China and other developing countries because our government is not willing to spend the money on things like infrastructure, schools, R&D, etc., to keep up with them.

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    Default Re: Eating the Seed Corn

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    I agree. I've been saying all along that our country is going to fall behind China and other developing countries because our government is not willing to spend the money on things like infrastructure, schools, R&D, etc., to keep up with them.
    ALERT THE MEDIA ! Peace in our time ! Lol. Eagle and I are in full agreement.

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    Default Re: Eating the Seed Corn

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    How do you know this? The mapping of the human genome was a government funded/administered project. The internet started as a government funded/administered project. You don't consider these significant contributions?



    Again, you're making stuff up based on your ideology. There is still a significant amount of manufacturing done in high-wage, developed countries. What the US government should be doing is supporting high wage jobs here, not bring wages down to the level of third wold countries.
    This is an essential issue : Do we want government bureaucrats deciding where and how much to invest or the free market ? Just as water finds its own level , scientists usually gravitate to the most fertile fields for discovery and innovation. In order for us to maintain or technological and innovative primacy we simply MUST invest in scientific education and research.

    At present, our corporations are sitting on TRILLIONS in unspent cash. Making permanent the recent changes to investment expensing and maintaining the charitable deduction will go a long way to seeing to it that the necessary funds are available.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 01-10-2011 at 11:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Eating the Seed Corn

    This is an essential issue : Do we want government bureaucrats deciding where and how much to invest or the free market ?
    I supposed that depends whether or not the 'scientist' is working under a gov't grant to study the effects of 'cow flatulence' on global warming !

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