Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 27

Thread: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

  1. #1
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    Mel and I have previously reported on the ridiculous subsidies and tax breaks Obama has offered to promote purchases of electric cars.
    Here is an update on the latest batch of related hubris and silliness from Washington.

    The latest analysis by Peter Whoriskey of the Washington Post shows that the prices for the Nissan Leaf ( $32,780 ) and Chevy Volt ( $41,000 ) are "well above" those of comparably sized cars with gasoline engines. Most of which cost around $20,000.

    The $7500 bribe , oops !, I mean SUBSIDY , to buy a Leaf or Volt was originally limited to the first 250,000 such cars. Under the Obama Porkulus package it was expanded to 200,000 per manufacturer ; i.e. 400,000. Senator Carl Levin and his brother, Congressman Sander Levin ( both from the home of economic "innovations" - Michigan ) have the brilliant idea of accelerating prosperity ( which is "right around the corner" ) by proposing to make this bribery program even MORE expensive. The Levins want to more than double down on the current bribery program by having it apply to 500,000 cars per manufacturer. As George Will points out in his recent column, they are responding in classic Liberal style to proven failure and ineffectiveness. They want "MORE ".

    The Levins want all taxpayers to subsidize purchases for a fortunate few i.e. those who can afford $41,000 cars. As Whoriskey reports, early adopters of a new kind of car tend to be affluent. I thought Democrats liked things progressive and not regressive , which this program certainly is.

    The Electrification Coalition is pushing this and other programs in the name of "economic and national security". Members of the Coalition include Nissan's CEO , Carlos Ghosn and the lovely and talented Jeff Immeldt, GE's CEO and now chairman of Obama's Council on Jobs and Competitiveness. Not content with running GE into the ground, Immeldt has set his sights on the country as a whole.
    Among other nonsense, the Coalition says that electric cars will free us from dependence on foreign oil from "unstable and hostile regions". As I have pointed out in related threads, we get most of our imported oil from Mexico and Canada.
    Btw, the Levins are opposed to drilling in ANWR among other places too supposedly sacrosanct for sensible and safe development.

    In the overall Federal budgetary scheme of things the Levins proposed expansion of the auto bribery program is relatively small potatoes : $19 billion over 10 years but Sander Levin says that " means that the program worked." Of course, if you pay folks enough, they will do all sorts of otherwise irrational things they would normally not be inclined to do. They are also admitting that the Leaf and Volt would almost certainly fail in an unrigged market. The problem is that it is both symptomatic and emblematic of a government that refuses to let its failures promote caution about further meddling with what ought to be a free market.

    In his SOTU speech Obama made it clear, he wants more of these "innovations". Like EXPANSION of the ethanol subsidy which has already seriously affected wheat farming and thus bread prices in several countries including Tunisia and Egypt.
    Another government "innovation" that really turned out great was the "No Money Down" sub-prime mortgage. We're now entering our sixth year of declining housing prices. At least another 10% decline is expected. We have 5 million borrowers at least two months delinquent on their mortgages. Obama's "innovative" Mortgage Modification program fizzled. We have another 5 million households where the mortgage is at least 20% larger than the market value of the home. We had 1 million foreclosures last year. Who thinks we will have fewer this year ?

    Shouldn't these successful ( ? ) "innovations" be kept in mind before we seek new ways for our Federal government to innovate ?
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 02-02-2011 at 10:32 AM.

  2. #2
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    don't worry ... that $41,000 ( pre taxpayer subsidies ) price tag for an electric car may soon look like a bargain ...

    (snip)Muslim Brotherhood: ‘Prepare Egyptians for war with Israel'
    By YAAKOV LAPPIN
    02/01/2011 02:00

    A leading member of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt told the Arabic-language Iranian news network Al-Alam on Monday that he would like to see the Egyptian people prepare for war against Israel, according to the Hebrew-language business newspaper Calcalist.

    Muhammad Ghannem reportedly told Al- Alam that the Suez Canal should be closed immediately, and that the flow of gas from Egypt to Israel should cease “in order to bring about the downfall of the Mubarak regime.” He added that “the people should be prepared for war against Israel,” saying the world should understand that “the Egyptian people are prepared for anything to get rid of this regime.”

    Ghannem praised Egyptian soldiers deployed by President Hosni Mubarak to Egyptian cities, saying they “would not kill their brothers.” He added that Washington was forced to abandon plans to help Mubarak stay in power after “seeing millions head for the streets.” (snip)

    from

    (snip)"© 2011 WorldNetDaily

    JERUSALEM – The Egyptian government has information a diplomat at the U.S. embassy in Cairo secretly met yesterday with a senior leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, the nation's major Islamist opposition group, WND has learned.

    The topic of the meeting was the future of Egypt following the "fall" of President Hosni Mubarak, an Egyptian intelligence official told WND.

    The claim comes amid charges from Cairo that the Obama administration has been encouraging the protests rocking Egypt and targeting the rule of Mubarak, a key U.S. ally in the Middle East.

    The Egyptian intelligence official told WND his government has information of a meeting that took place yesterday between Issam El-Erian, a senior leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, and Frank Wisner, a former U.S. ambassador to Egypt."(snip)




    the short term economic point of course is that a Muslim Brotherhood 'takeover' of the Egyptian gov't vastly increases the probability that Suez canal oil traffic will be disrupted, limiting oil supplies and increasing oil prices for Western countries ! The longer term economic point is that there appears to be an emerging 'connection' between Iranian / muslim fundamentalist backing and the efforts to topple standing gov'ts favorable to the West in Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, now Jordan etc.

    The jokers in the deck of course are what events are likely to take place to threaten the standing gov't in Saudi, and what events are likely to take place re post-'regime change' resumption of war with Israel. This could easily lead to $5+ per gallon US gasoline in a comparatively short amount of time ... if not a replay of outright shortages / rationing. And in classic 'never let a good crisis go to waste' tradition, CA governor Jerry Brown is already making references to the Egypt / middle east situation in a renewed call to raise CA income taxes ...


    (snip)"Citing the pro-democracy unrest in Egypt and Tunisia, Gov. Jerry Brown called it “unconscionable” that GOP legislators are vowing to block his attempt to ask voters to extend tax hikes to balance the budget.

    “When democratic ideals and calls for the right to vote are stirring the imagination of young people in Egypt and Tunisia and other parts of the world, we in California can’t say now is the time to block a vote of the people,” Brown said in his first State of the State address in nearly 30 years.

    He said the budget has tough choices but that the people “have a right to vote” on the package.

    He challenged both parties to take the difficult votes necessary to balance the budget.

    “If you are a Democrat who doesn’t want to make budget reductions in programs you fought for and deeply believe in, I understand that,” he said. “If you are a Republican who has taken a stand against taxes, I understand where you are coming from. But this time things are different."(snip)

    from

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 02-01-2011 at 02:20 PM.

  3. #3
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    Jerry Brown has never been the sharpest knife in the drawer. Asking 80% of Californians to vote to raise taxes on the top 20% seems like a no-brainer. Until you stop and think that : A. Those are the very people who start the new businesses that California needs ; B. They are the ones who HIRE other Californians and C. They are the ones best able to move to Nevada, Arizona or Idaho. Which D. They have done, are doing and will do in increasing numbers should their taxes go up more than they already have. California already has the highest state Income Tax.

  4. #4
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    ^^^ well that was the underlying point ... which remains essentially unchanged from the days of the Roman Empire. Once 51%+ of the voters in a democracy are able to vote themselves increased gov't benefits ... benefits that are financed via increased taxes on the other 49%- and not by any 'sacrifice' from themselves ... it's all a downhill slide from there.

    Indeed, the higher that the relative California state income tax rate becomes on businesses and individuals, the stronger the economic incentive becomes for those businesses and individuals to move to a lower tax jurisdiction. The higher that the relative California state income tax rate becomes, the less money middle class Californians have left over for discretionary spending after 'necessities' are paid for, providing a disincentive for local business hiring / expansion. Of course, where truly 'rich' Californians are concerned, the ability to shield high earnings from high taxes via tax free California muni bond purchases, via tax favored California green energy partnership purchases ( yielding tax credits that reduce other tax liabilities ), by offshore banking / investing etc., makes increasing California income tax rates much less of a 'real world' issue.

    However, with California's economy / state financial picture continuing to deteriorate, it remains to be seen whether California will be successful in convincing the US federal gov't ( i.e. taxpayers in other states ) to bail them out on rising state muni bond principal and interest repayments. If this doesn't happen, and as a result 'rich' Californians were to see their $1,000,000 state muni bond devalued to say $750,000 or $500,000, 'all bets are off' !

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 02-02-2011 at 12:24 PM.

  5. #5
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ well that was the underlying point ... which remains essentially unchanged from the days of the Roman Empire. Once 51%+ of the voters in a democracy are able to vote themselves increased gov't benefits ... benefits that are financed via increased taxes on the other 49%- and not by any 'sacrifice' from themselves ... it's all a downhill slide from there.

    Indeed, the higher that the relative California state income tax rate becomes on businesses and individuals, the stronger the economic incentive becomes for those businesses and individuals to move to a lower tax jurisdiction. The higher that the relative California state income tax rate becomes, the less money middle class Californians have left over for discretionary spending after 'necessities' are paid for, providing a disincentive for local business hiring / expansion. Of course, where truly 'rich' Californians are concerned, the ability to shield high earnings from high taxes via tax free California muni bond purchases, via tax favored California green energy partnership purchases ( yielding tax credits that reduce other tax liabilities ), by offshore banking / investing etc., makes increasing California income tax rates much less of a 'real world' issue.

    However, with California's economy / state financial picture continuing to deteriorate, it remains to be seen whether California will be successful in convincing the US federal gov't ( i.e. taxpayers in other states ) to bail them out on rising state muni bond principal and interest repayments. If this doesn't happen, and as a result 'rich' Californians were to see their $1,000,000 state muni bond devalued to say $750,000 or $500,000, 'all bets are off' !
    I know. We see it every year at the Oscars, Emmys, Grammys, Golden Globes and People's Choice awards. There is a serious disconnect between the California glitteratti and middle class Californians. They are the ones who support Brown and his fellow Dems with their money and "star power".

  6. #6
    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Syracuse
    Posts
    5,921
    Thanks
    369
    Thanked 419 Times in 290 Posts
    My Mood
    Fine

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    Electric cars have not been the only transportation media heavily invested in by the US government. Some markets have taken decades to develop, especially if there is no subsidy. Maybe people don't think we have decades to move away from petroleum-consuming vehicles, but someday we surely will need them.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

  7. #7
    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Syracuse
    Posts
    5,921
    Thanks
    369
    Thanked 419 Times in 290 Posts
    My Mood
    Fine

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    Since when has the US government not been rigging the market -- any market you can name.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

  8. #8
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    Where is your "special dispensation" permitting you to get "political" ? Melonie, Eagle, myself and everyone else has made a serious effort to tone it down and avoid "politics" as much as possible. We have all tried to shift the focus to practicality as much as possible which requires that we veer away from the political, historical and philosophical.

    Please join us in avoiding the politics.

  9. #9
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    however, from the standpoint of economic news, the following updates are probably in order



    (snip)"Duke Energy Warns Customers to Not Use EV Charging Stations After Fire Involving Siemens Charger and Chevy Volt"(snip)



    (snip)"Chevy Volt Again Suspected in House Fire"(snip)


    Again putting the political aspects of the Chevy Volt and the Chevy Volt garage fire investigations aside, it would appear that Chevy Volt owners may soon face yet another undocumented operations expense in conjunction with their Chevy Volt ... increased monthly premiums for their homeowner's insurance !!!

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 11-07-2011 at 11:25 PM.

  10. #10
    Member
    Joined
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    23
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    Yet somehow I don't believe the electric car subsidy is responsible for our 9% unemployment rate, unlike the previous administration's debacles with a price tag 100 times as much.

  11. #11
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    well, the electric car 'fun' continues ...

    (snip)"WASHINGTON — Federal officials say they are investigating the safety of lithium-ion battery in General Motors Co.'s Chevrolet Volt after a second battery fire following crash-testing of the electric car.

    The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said Friday that three Volt battery packs were crash-tested last week. In one instance, the battery caught fire afterward, and in another the battery emitted smoke and sparks.

    Last May, a fire erupted in the battery of a Chevy Volt that had been damaged during a government crash test three weeks earlier. Last week's tests were an attempt to replicate the May fire.

    NHTSA has opened a formal safety defect investigation of the batteries."(snip)


    As to other issues, within the limits of the politics ban, all I can really say is this. As the new 'tax year' is now only one month away, American businesses and individuals STILL do not know their potential financial exposure in the areas of 2012 income tax rates, capital gains tax rates, AMT thresholds, National Health Care compliance costs, EPA compliance costs, etc. To add to the confusion the US FED has done little to indicate a 'stable' future US dollar policy direction, with de-facto US dollar policy now being indirectly driven by fleeing Euros and Chinese central bankers. And official stats re sales tax collections plus retailer profitability announcements tend to indicate that demand remains flat at best.

    In order to feel justified in making business investments and hiring additional workers, US businesses need to have at lease SOME confidence that their future labor + benefit cost projections, and their future sales projections, return a positive number at the end of the quarter. At this point uncertainty still rules, and prudent businesses ( or businesses who must depend on their own sales revenues for cash flow / profits in lieu of gov't grants and subsidies ) simply aren't going to make 'leaps of faith'.

  12. #12
    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Syracuse
    Posts
    5,921
    Thanks
    369
    Thanked 419 Times in 290 Posts
    My Mood
    Fine

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    Sorry that I am out of date to that "agreement". However, I am merely bring up a basic truth which should underscore all your opinions on the subject.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

  13. #13
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    since you bumped this thread, I'll add a few additional facts re the Chevy Volt ...

    (snip)"NEW YORK (AP) -- General Motors will buy Chevrolet Volts back from any owner who is afraid the electric cars will catch fire, the company's CEO said Thursday.

    In an exclusive interview with The Associated Press, CEO Dan Akerson insisted that the cars are safe, but said the company will purchase the Volts because it wants to keep customers happy. Three fires have broken out in Volts after side-impact crash tests done by the federal government.

    Akerson said that if necessary, GM will recall the more than 6,000 Volts now on the road in the U.S. and repair them once the company and federal safety regulators figure out what caused the fires.

    "The fire broke out seven days later. Not seven minutes. Not seven seconds," Akerson said, adding that the company wants to fix the problem so people continue to have faith in Volts and other advanced technology cars. The company is notified of any Volt crash through its OnStar safety system and dispatches a team with 48 hours to drain the battery, preventing fires, he said.(snip)


    of course, so far, no determination has been made as to whether the Chevy Volt buyers will have to pay back the $7000 federal tax credit plus up to $3000 state tax credits they received as a result of their purchase if they 'sell' their car back to GM.

  14. #14
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    Sorry that I am out of date to that "agreement". However, I am merely bring up a basic truth which should underscore all your opinions on the subject.
    There is no "agreement".

    Pryce laid down the law that politics are to be avoided as much as possible. My understanding is that when they are so intertwined with an economic topic that the topic cannot be discussed without certain reference points, that "politics" enter into the discussion as little as possible. In certain cases it has meant avoiding some topics altogether.

    Melonie, Eagle , me and everyone else have done their best to avoid politics as much as possible. Everyone else has refrained from
    trying to be partisan or critiquing political policy and politicians.

    Inter alia, it means that we have all tried to leave economic history and even economic philosophy ( Free Market , Keynesian, Socialist etc. ) OUT of the discussion as much as we can.

    If you don't like the new policy, please take it up with Pryce.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 12-09-2011 at 08:26 AM.

  15. #15
    Veteran Member
    Joined
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    455
    Thanks
    53
    Thanked 175 Times in 109 Posts

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    I didn't see Threlayer's comments on govt rigged markets as partisian...... It's the partisian shots that never get anyone anywhere.
    The country has been looted.

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to mikef For This Useful Post:


  17. #16
    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Syracuse
    Posts
    5,921
    Thanks
    369
    Thanked 419 Times in 290 Posts
    My Mood
    Fine

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    If you didn't quite get my sardonic comments to where you thought it was political, consider this: our government for well over a hundred years has established tax and fiscal policies that have made certain "technologies" preferrable in order to either promote or discourage them.

    In the case of electric autos, there could be enough benefit, eventually, to oil and CO2 problems, as thought by your elected representatives, that they have established these preferences. This is not unique nor a precedent by any means. It is good that they did not give a preference for the rotary (Wankel) engine for example. There are always consequences to any generalized decision that cannot be foreseen (or that are chosen to be ignored) such as use of corn to dilute gasoline with methanol with it effect of food and feed prices. This applies to business decision-makers as well as government ones.

    I was commenting on the decision process, not "politics." I suppose I could have ignored your post, but I decided to spend a few minutes clarifying it for you.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

  18. #17
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    ^^^ unfortunately, the minute you involve any discussion of disproportionate 'gov't policy' effects on various private businesses, or 'unintended consequences' resulting from a 'gov't policy, you violate the political discussion ban. This doesn't mean that the disproportionate effects and unintended consequences aren't very real, but does mean that we're not supposed to discuss them at StripperWeb. As such, I have been trying to limit my posts to factual reports.

  19. #18
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    If you didn't quite get my sardonic comments to where you thought it was political, consider this: our government for well over a hundred years has established tax and fiscal policies that have made certain "technologies" preferrable in order to either promote or discourage them.

    In the case of electric autos, there could be enough benefit, eventually, to oil and CO2 problems, as thought by your elected representatives, that they have established these preferences. This is not unique nor a precedent by any means. It is good that they did not give a preference for the rotary (Wankel) engine for example. There are always consequences to any generalized decision that cannot be foreseen (or that are chosen to be ignored) such as use of corn to dilute gasoline with methanol with it effect of food and feed prices. This applies to business decision-makers as well as government ones.

    I was commenting on the decision process, not "politics." I suppose I could have ignored your post, but I decided to spend a few minutes clarifying it for you.
    Boy, would I LOVE to respond to this on several levels. Unfortunately, I am precluded from doing so by the ban on "politics" which I am doing my best to comply with . Can't wait for YOU to get on board and start complying.

  20. #19
    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Syracuse
    Posts
    5,921
    Thanks
    369
    Thanked 419 Times in 290 Posts
    My Mood
    Fine

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ unfortunately, the minute you involve any discussion of disproportionate 'gov't policy' effects on various private businesses, or 'unintended consequences' resulting from a 'gov't policy, you violate the political discussion ban....
    Trying to understand this, any discussions of government procedures or policies are deemed political in nature even if the "red" or "blue" terms are not included or purposefully implied?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    As such, I have been trying to limit my posts to factual reports.
    And I do appreciate your bringing concrete facts for our inspection. It is my nature to try to assimilate facts and draw "cause and effect" conclusions if possible, whatever the names of the groups involved. Sounds like I will have nothing else to say about this area. Perhaps I should inspect Price's directive before I make any further decisions. Also I should not comment on older posts (I didn't notice the date of this one; it was just among the recent ones I saw.)
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

  21. #20
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    ^^^ indeed, if you read back through this thread, you'll see a 'major change' in the nature of posted comments at the point where the 'politics ban' was enacted.


    As to 'gov't policy' as a topic for ongoing discussion, I have taken the position that it's still OK to discuss policy re the US Federal Reserve ( because it is supposedly an independent privately owned business entity not a branch of the gov't ), but not OK to discuss policy effects stemming from actual gov't agencies. If I had to summarize the difference, it would probably revolve around whether said policy was influence-able by future voters, versus said policy being decided in a boardroom.

  22. #21
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    here's some 'purely factual' followup on the economics of the Chevy Volt ... from


    (snip)"Each Chevy Volt sold thus far may have as much as $250,000 in state and federal dollars in incentives behind it – a total of $3 billion altogether, according to an analysis by James Hohman, assistant director of fiscal policy at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy.

    Hohman looked at total state and federal assistance offered for the development and production of the Chevy Volt, General Motors’ plug-in hybrid electric vehicle. His analysis included 18 government deals that included loans, rebates, grants and tax credits. The amount of government assistance does not include the fact that General Motors is currently 26 percent owned by the federal government.

    The Volt subsidies flow through multiple companies involved in production. The analysis includes adding up the amount of government subsidies via tax credits and direct funding for not only General Motors, but other companies supplying parts for the vehicle. For example, the Department of Energy awarded a $105.9 million grant to the GM Brownstown plant that assembles the batteries. The company was also awarded approximately $106 million for its Hamtramck assembly plant in state credits to retain jobs. The company that supplies the Volt’s batteries, Compact Power, was awarded up to $100 million in refundable battery credits (combination tax breaks and cash subsidies). These are among many of the subsidies and tax credits for the vehicle.

    It’s unlikely that all the companies involved in Volt production will ever receive all the $3 billion in incentives, Hohman said, because many of them are linked to meeting various employment and other milestones. But the analysis looks at the total value that has been offered to the Volt in different aspects of production – from the assembly line to the dealerships to the battery manufacturers. Some tax credits and subsidies are offered for periods up to 20 years, though most have a much shorter time frame.

    GM has estimated they’ve sold 6,000 Volts so far. That would mean each of the 6,000 Volts sold would be subsidized between $50,000 and $250,000, depending on how many government subsidy milestones are realized.

    If those manufacturers awarded incentives to produce batteries the Volt may use are included in the analysis, the potential government subsidy per Volt increases to $256,824. For example, A123 Systems has received extensive state and federal support, and bid to be a supplier to the Volt, but the deal instead went to Compact Power. The $256,824 figure includes adding up the subsidies to both companies.

    The $3 billion total subsidy figure includes $690.4 million offered by the state of Michigan and $2.3 billion in federal money. That’s enough to purchase 75,222 Volts with a sticker price of $39,828.

    Additional state and local support provided to Volt suppliers was not included in the analysis, Hohman said, and could increase the level of government aid. For instance, the Volt is being assembled at the Poletown plant in Detroit/Hamtramck, which was built on land acquired by General Motors through eminent domain.

    “It just goes to show there are certain folks that will spend anything to get their vision of what people should do,” said State Representative Tom McMillin, R-Rochester Hills. “It’s a glaring example of the failure of central planning trying to force citizens to purchase something they may not want. … They should let the free market make those decisions.”

    “This might be the most government-supported car since the Trabant,” said Hohman, referring to the car produced by the former Communist state of East Germany.

    According to GM CEO Dan Akerson, the average Volt owner makes $170,000 per year."(snip)


    It is unclear whether the author also accounted for the 'lost' income tax revenues resulting from the US federal gov'ts and various state gov'ts electric vehicle tax credits which allowed high earning, high tax bracket Chevy Volt owners to legally reduce their income tax liabilities substantially. However, since only 6,000 Chevy Volts have actually been sold, the total 'lost' tax revenue dollars involved with vehicle buyer tax credits is 'small potatoes' compared to the federal and state 'incentives' provided directly to GM and it's sub-suppliers.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 12-22-2011 at 04:01 AM.

  23. #22
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    Battery maker A123 just filed for Chapter 11 AFTER receiving about a quarter billion grant from the DOE. Another alternative energy success story.

  24. #23
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    Look at the bright side. A123 was at least a US based company. The supplier of Chevy Volt batteries, South Korean based company LG, received a similar quarter billion dollars worth of US federal and state grants / loans / tax exemptions to construct a battery plant in Michigan. Two years later, that plant has yet to supply a single battery to GM ... with all LG batteries delivered so far originating at LG factories in Asia. LG's US workers are on rotating furloughs, and the Michigan LG plant has almost 'burnt through' its original loan / grant money.

    A123 was accelerated toward bankruptcy by the failure of heavily US federal and state subsidized US company in name only car maker Fisker to actually commence production of electric vehicles in a 'retooled' ex-GM plant in Maryland which were slated to use batteries produced by A123 ( funded by some half billion dollars in US federal and state loans / grants / tax exemptions ). Latest reports are that the Maryland Fisker plant is down to a handful of workers, and is unlikely to ever 'tool up' to actually produce electric cars. All Fisker electric cars which have actually been produced to date were assembled in Finland. Fortunately for US and Maryland taxpayers, Fisker's flow of US taxpayer money was stopped at the ~$200 million mark pending something constructive actually taking place at Fisker's Maryland plant.

    Arguably, the de-facto 'business model' for many of these subsidized alternative energy companies is strikingly similar. A. exercise political leverage to obtain as much grant and loan money from US taxpayers as possible ... B. use this 'free' money to pay high salaries to executives and unionized workers ... C. go through the motions of trying to do 'something' for as long as the US taxpayer money lasts ... D. file bankruptcy and close down operations ( thus turning US taxpayer loans into US taxpayer grants ) ... and E. preserve the 'paper losses' of the failed company for use by company executives / investors to offset US taxes due on their other, more conventional, income sources.
    Last edited by Melonie; 10-17-2012 at 12:37 PM.

  25. #24
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    Proving that with government help nothing succeeds like failure.

  26. #25
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Obama "Innovations" = Rigging The Market

    ^^^ yes, it's maddeningly ironic that ... for 'rich' executives and investors of a failed corporation ... going bankrupt on gov't backed loans can have POSITIVE personal income results net of taxes !!!

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. "Hun," "Baby," "Darlin'" and other endearing terms
    By Chicagoeditor in forum Customer Conversation
    Replies: 74
    Last Post: 10-29-2013, 04:02 PM
  2. Replies: 26
    Last Post: 09-29-2013, 12:45 AM
  3. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 01-24-2012, 05:34 PM
  4. Replies: 17
    Last Post: 09-30-2008, 09:41 AM
  5. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 11-09-2006, 08:21 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •