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Thread: Four very interesting Essays from CGN.

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    Default Four very interesting Essays from CGN.

    I was given permission to re-post these, and I seriously wanted to know what all of you think:

    This still pretty much reflects my position.. although it needs some up-dates and corrections about pay-scales and model owned web-sites.. But this harsh view represents my personal position only, and I don't expect that my position will be shared by other members of this forum. Many will vigorously dissent. In any case, the forum will remains open to many different perspectives on this global form of industrialized sex commerce.
    UL

    QUOTE (Uncle Lewis @ February 22, 2008 06:03 pm) Okay time to weigh in - one more time - although I think my position is clear enough already.

    Live sex chat is a new, and distinct, kind of sex work occupation that occupies a peculiar market niche in the world wide sex industry. The service it provides falls in between virtual acts of prostitution on the one hand and the production of "reality tv," style porn shows that are personalized for the individual consumer on the other. It joins Gonzo porn production when either customers or websites record a model's sexual performance and produces it as a permanent video clip that can be exchanged or downloaded on the net.

    It is extremely significant that this industry has recruited tens of thousands of university students and graduates in the countries of Eastern Europe, Latin and North America and Russia and trained them to work as amateur porn actresses. The Internet and the long-distance provision of safe sex services have made it easier for new social categories of women to be recruited by the sex industry. I fear that the "banalisation of commercial sex work" and its emergence an acceptable job alternative for middle class professional women in Eastern Europe; Latin America and the United States will have lasting consequences both in their personal lives and for the futures of their societies.

    I don't think that Live Chat should be outlawed, but I no longer support its formal regulation by the state as a "normalized occupation" either. It should remain in a "grey zone" where it's legally tolerated but not protected - because it's the least of all evils as far as sex work is concerned and the safest form of prostitution imaginable for the workers in this industry. But safe or not, it remains sex work with all sorts of long term, psychological harms for both performers and users.

    And the profits those performers earn on their back are taken mainly by a network of men - the affiliates, web-site managers, studio owners - who are really NOT simple "theatrical agents." They have earned their title of "web-pimps," because the global sex industry has ties to local mafias and transnational crime syndicates as well as transnational corporations. This is a global industry that uses women to "mass produce porn" - often under sweatshop conditions for little pay in countries like Colombia, the Philippines or the Ukraine - for the pleasure and profit of men.

    I believe live chat ought to be critically censured because it's a kind of "action propaganda" for the world wide sex industry that feeds and legitimates the market demand of western sex consumers for other activities which are truly evil as well as physically dangerous to performers - such as sex tourism "outward bound" to Asia, the Caribbean, Eastern Europe and Latin America, or the inward bound migration and trafficking of sex workers into the cities of North America and Western Europe.

    There's much more that could be said about the cultural message embedded in porn images. I think that it's really a kind of political propaganda as much as it is mass advertising for the global "Adult Entertainment Industry." Porn re-establishes the old distinction between two unequal classes of women - the respectable "Madonnas" and the stigmatized "Whores," and then proceeds to demolish it in practical terms - so that in the end all women appear as potential whores "by their very nature."

    Madonnas are those women who are to be publicly honored and worshiped as "mothers and wives," while the "whores" are "nasty sluts" who can be sexually used and be simultaneously despised and disrespected for having served us. This distinction opens the door to unlimited sexual aggression and emotional cruelty toward any women who fall into the category of "exotic, erotic servant." Isn't this what Froglover was telling us when she said last year that:

    "We still live in a past when whole world belonged to men, when their everyday violence was counted as one of love's joys, and a man who has many girfriends is a stud or macho, while a woman with the same attitude was a slut or whore.“

    But that sexual tyranny can also "blow-back" on the real women in our members' lives.

    The twist in live chat is that the industry has recruited thousands of ordinary looking, women students to play the fantasy roles of the "College Coed," the "Au-Pair Girl," the "Exchange Student" or the "Girl Next Door." In all these roles they play the "nice girl" who's secretly a nasty slut - impatiently waiting for our magic touch to awaken them to their true "animal" selves. By taking a cam girl "down a peg" in private, website members demonstrate - at least to their own satisfaction - that all these girls really desire in life is to be our "cam-whores" and that they only live to serve our pleasure... And of course if we take the opportunity to secretly record them, then we have the video evidence of their "cam-whoring" that can follow them once they leave this business behind and get on with their personal or professional lives. In pirate lingo this is called "ownership."

    Therefore, it seems that the main assets for which they are valued in the sexual market-place are reducible to a pair of hands, two "fun-bags" and three "hungry holes." Certainly consuming them sexually is all that Western customers and web site employers are ready to pay them for. So the humor, intelligence and personal charm - in short their humanity - that they display on-line are at best the "icing on the cake" - a complimentary side-dish that goes along with that order of "cream-pie?"

    The propaganda discourse of Porn (and live chat) is one that eroticizes "gender inequality" and makes sexual fantasies about the command and control of women acceptable and emotionally rewarding. Isn't that the hard reality with which must cam-models must learn to cope? Is that what our former member Skyprintzesa meant when she told us:

    "I’m working in this business for 5 months...For me it s quite enough...but i must admit i have learned many things.....although it’s an experience I could’ve lived without....

    And isn't that repeated dose of humiliation exactly what Delfina was talking about the other week.. when she said of Zoey :

    "In the end guys like Zoey make huge favor to such 'weak and naive' models - yes, i know that no one will agree with me in that but still it is true -"What doesn't kill us makes us stronger' - Friedrich Nietzsche."

    I must agree with Robert Jensen when he writes that images of sexual cruelty and gender inequality are what we - as the "solo stroking customer" - are finally masturbating over. The lonely orgasm of the porn consumer is a "power trip" with a strong psycho-sexual charge that can re-wire his sexual libido - see the topics on "porn creep" and cyber sex addition for more information on that. The porn culture is a "fun-house mirror" that distorts our sexual desires even as it serves as a stimulus for further market demand. This only serves the profit sheets of the men who control the women in this industry.

    As I have said many times in the end this "action propaganda" communicated through hard-edged sexual images and words hurts all the women and men who come into contact with it - unless they are ready to critically dissect its message and reject it. But who here stands ready to look in that mirror and see the image that it reflects back on us in the West?

    So Grthngs, I know this sounds harsh but that's why I am not "Okay with this."
    Clear enough??

    UL

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    Default Re: Two very interesting Essays from CGN.

    A second note. Reprinted with permission:

    QUOTE (UncleLewis @ June 28, 2009 12:51 pm)

    Here's a new note about the new practice of doing sex shows for tips in an open room - and to a slightly lesser degree - group shows with many voyeurs. Both kinds of group show make it that much easier for pirates on the site to "cap" a show and share it with the world wide web... No surprise then that Onan is a fan - even if he has the personal "know-how" to "cap" virtually any kind of show that he damn well pleases. But is it any surprise that the odds of a model appearing on either Direct Sex or *MFC*s being "capped" - and being put on display in her home country - are now considerably higher than on a competing site like say, F4F, Keepshows, Imlive or PF - even though those sites have thousands more registered models than either DS or MFC?? I think not. As the old Marxists would have said "under these conditions of production, it's no accident that x or y happened."

    Second thing...we must remind ourselves constantly that this "seksbizness" isn't really about increasing earnings or options for models, but about generating a larger revenue stream for the web-sites that are owned and managed by men tied to trans-national crime syndicates.

    All the recent innovations on MFC are aimed at increasing traffic and profit margins by lowering the price of an entry ticket to live shows by allowing members to pool their tokens and share the cost of the "content." As Andra reminds us, this is all about preserving the "take" for studio owners and web-masters in a crisis period when their clientele's disposable income has declined dramatically due to their own income and job losses. And this marketing strategy has had great success. MFC is now ranked 3,830 out of all the US web-sites listed on Astra, got 0.03% of all Internet traffic worldwide as of yesterday, and has seen its share of world web traffic increase by 35% over the past three months.

    So given all this, some MFC models will continue to earn "top dollar" from their studios, and the web-site will attract more and more performers. But even so, their take home pay pales in comparison to what their performances earn for their employers. "Group shows" and "tip shows" must be understood as a means for maintaining the current "rate of exploitation" in recessionary times.

    And ofc, Onan is right as always - if the experienced models refuse to adapt to the new way of working a room, the web-pimps can always find some "silly girl" who's sufficiently inexperienced; naive about actual risks and economically desperate enough to take her place...What Marx called "the reserve army of the unemployed" has been greatly expanded over the past two years by 60 million job losses - so there are lots of candidates for any job vacancies who would rather " go topless than be jobless."

    So guys this really isn't about some models' personal choices and preferences in a "free market for sexual services". This a global industry where the Web-Pimps have just changed the rules and lowered the bar, so that models must either adapt their performances to the new industry standard or get out. In the midst of the first Global depression of the 21st century that's hardly a free choice.

    The basic issue here is that models don't have the power within the current studio system either to defend their working conditions, or to place limits on the kinds of 'sexual labor" they are expected to perform - as the collapse of the MFC models petition movement should tells us. "Group shows and "Pussy for tips" are an example of a "marketing innovation" that promotes the deregulation of a labor market that ends up putting established performers at a competitive disadvantage vis a vis new entrants into this kind of "virtual e-prostitution."

    Comparing these studio girls who work on the "Industrial Vagina Assembly Line" to an independent, US free lancer - who used to work as some Rich Guy's personal trainer or massage therapist before he or she also got canned - may not be that helpful for understanding what's really going on here. And while I admit that this last point could be argued both ways, either way you cut it, the "group show" innovation is not about a "free choice" made by self employed, performer entrepreneurs.

    In short, this situation reflects an increase in "coerced" sexual labor that's driven largely by changes in market demand that the web-pimps helped to encourage last summer, and then shaped in their favor without consulting anyone on their staffs. As a German trade unionist once put it: "In the era of neo-liberal globalization, the screw that turns always cuts downward." Truer words were never said in terms of who gets screwed on MFC, and who gets the biggest cut of the models earnings.

    So the pirates and pervs both have reasons to gloat over these changes, but Dance4Life was still right to ask them: "What's the true cost of your pleasure, sirs?"

    UL

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    Default Re: Two very interesting Essays from CGN.

    Next (These are one thread, and an interesting one, but I want COMMENTS!)

    Reprinted with permission:

    I thought that this latest set of observations and analysis by Ol' Uncle Lewis of the dynamics on the MFC web-site belongs here, because its "TiTs for Tips" marketing strategy has become the industry standard that has been now adopted by *F4F* and Steamate among others.
    EB

    QUOTE (UncleLewis @ August 25, 2010 05:37 pm)

    There are many more models on sites like MFC - which now claims to have 100,000 models registered on their site - and much more competition.
    This increased competition has resulted in a revolution in how most models work on that site and sites that imitate it by allowing tipping.

    Most of the popular models spend a large part of their shift working nude in their open room and offering hard sex shows in free for tips....The shows in the open rooms are no longer just "teasers" but the real deal - anal penetration, cum shows with dildos - performed for an audience that can number in the hundreds - with many on-lookers watching as free riders..So the definition of a model job description have moved from "Live Chat hostess" to online "peep show girl" in a matter of a couple of years.

    The old way of working a room was described by the web-master from F4F as inciting a "client frenzy" and it described a model who was doing a show involving hot chat and some flashing to excite a room full of horny guys to the point where ONE of them would decide to take her away from all of this by taking her private.. To some degree a skillful model was very much in charge of what happened in her room and how much she had to perform "in free" to "incite" the necessary degree of lust in her clientele.

    But today on MFC the center of power seems to have shifted to the "premium members lounge'" where the senior members receive and send news flashes about which girl is doing what kind of hard show, and the "member pack" gets sent off to the appropriate room with their tips massed in kind of "token wave" that can rain down cash on some lucky model.. or be withheld, dis-invested and then re-invested in another room.

    This kind of "member traffic control" puts the established models at a disadvantage because the newbies can capture their traffic, if they are ready to escalate their show with more extreme content... This gives new girls who are ready to break the rules a competitive edge that dictates the new standard for performances that everyone must meet if they are to stay in the game..I know of established MFC models who have quit the site because they couldn't take the pressure.

    This turn in the way models are marketed - and market themselves - was discussed at length in this thread in Models Issues last Fall and Winter:

    And by the Romanian Cam models on their own forum AdultVideoChat last Fall as well:

    But if we want to really discuss how members decide what models to take private this is a much more realistic starting point..i.e. first by understanding that many members will never pay to take a model private again - they would rather wait for a free show in an open room paid for with some other member's tips, or for the video release of her "hot private" on some pirate forum or web-cam "Tube Site." As a result, a girl's ability to meet her daily financial goal is no longer measured in the number of minutes she spends with members in private shows - rather it's reckoned by the total number of tokens that she can gather in the form of tips.

    And second, members are not making an individual choice about the models they see - instead they are moving in "packs" from room to room in response to signals they are getting from "command central" - that is the Premium Members Lounge. So don't think client consumption of sex shows in terms of a individual transaction between model and member - rather think of her as the target of a "member swarm" in her open room.
    Photo taken from a New York Cam-Model's profile page on MFC last month.
    Now given that MFC models are now "raffling off" real face2face meetings with members in exchange for very large tips, we should ask ourselves what she's really saying here..?

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    Default Re: Four very interesting Essays from CGN.

    Last but not least (reprinted with permission):

    I wrote this two years ago, before we had learned about the creation of "Tube Sites" sponsored by the web-content providers themselves, where clients could up-load and down-load the private shows of their favorite performers - VOD shows or ViewOnDemand - for a small fee.. This was also written before we had good evidence to show the boundaries between virtual and real sex work have become more and more diffuse and porous... But with models now holding "raffles" to auction off for hundreds of tokens the chance for a "face to face" meeting in real time with their favorite girl, the web-sites are encouraging a new form of "solicitation" which is deliberately "ambiguous" about what's "on offer" at best.

    Look for instance at this example of an enterprising American cam model/stripper who's auctioning off one of her "lap-dances" in her local strip club:

    And then at this discussion of Raffles on the Romanian forum, AVC.ro .


    The title of the original topic was "More Duplicity as Web-sites Partner with Pirates," but in terms of what I called the integrated "economie vaginale mondiale," we now must recognize that the range of partners involved is much wider than we ever imagined. It now could include Disco Clubs; Luxury hotels or massage salons and spas. So the ladies by '"spreading4U" online or in "real time," are also "spreading the wealth" far and wide beyond the traditional venues where virtual sex work took place. Of course, the models themselves fear what all of this means.
    UL

    QUOTE (UncleLewis @ September 28, 2008 01:35 pm) The fact that the cam sites are now advertizing themselves on pirate forums, should not be that surprising.

    Some sites like webcams.com are showing short - five minute-video clips of their girls' private performances on Redtube or even YouTube.

    RedTube is an interesting example of the "synergy" that now characterizes the aggressive marketing of women on the net. On the home page of that "Tube" site one will find free videos which are amateur vids (or pirated ones), another selection of better quality commercial porn that is available for a low monthly fee and then active links to Web-cam sites that feature Eastern European and Latina cam-models juxtaposed next to links to sexual social network sites that offer to "hook you up for the night" with 'Hot" women in your local area - grouped conveniently according to your postal zip code.

    So the free porn clips are used to advertize the social network sites, where the Eastern European cam girls serve as a warm up to the local women with whom you can arrange "face to face" meetings. I don't think these "fuck buddy" sites are really about on-line social dating, but actually promote "dates" of a more commercial sort.
    The compartments between various types of commercial sex are collapsing into one single market network for converting women into merchandise and selling them to men - what French observers call "l'economie vaginale" and American web-pimps call "pussy-cash." The same woman represents a virtual commodity that can be sold over and over - unlike a drug that's a one-off sale.

    Gabby suspected that the studios were working as partners with the the pirates last Fall already. And once again, it appears that she was totally right.

    We were mistaken to think otherwise, and that studio admins could be trusted not to always want to take an ethical short-cut to make a buck.

    UL

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    Default Re: Four very interesting Essays from CGN.

    I know what its saying but i dont know what it means.

    I mean , Want us to stop camming? Cam more? Cam on other sites? Leave Mfc, Go to Mfc?
    What do you expect to make a quick buck , No other job from home pays this good.
    There will be issues. We are treated like crap, We can try and change it , Or we can do what the article suggests , and be normalized gifts to society , because we are whores if not? I dont want a normal job. Im not yet skilled for one.

    Ive read it all , But im not sure what kind of response its suppose to effect me with =P
    Americanmade18 on most sites.

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    Default Re: Four very interesting Essays from CGN.

    Do you agree with it? I mean the points made, or the tone, or whatever?

    Do you think that reality is expressed wthin these articles? If so, what does the ultimate idea mean to you?

    B

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    Default Re: Four very interesting Essays from CGN.

    I didn't read it all...I skimmed it.

    I don't think the point is to cam or not to cam.

    It is discussing the direction of camming, which IMO is going the way of music right now.

    Music is being pirated, too.

    But music is also no longer about music anymore either. When is the last time you heard a top 40 song that was actually a great composition. It's about hypnotizing the masses. It's a mass seduction. It's about being a rock star. It's whats in.

    Camming isn't so much about sex. They can download porn anywhere to get a sexual need filled. It's about being that girlfriend. A girl isn't gonna compete on MFC by doing a better sex show than the next, she is gonna compete by continuing to seduce the masses. She will have to be a "camstar".

    I just coined a new phrase, lol.

    So as what does that mean as site producers are selling out girls by selling vids for a quick buck, etc.? It means that the girls that are here to simply make a buck by merely selling sex are gonna get sold out. The girls that make it are the girls who are in it to win it.

    Same thing with strip clubs. Strip clubs are not REALLY selling sex or table dances. Table dances are just a means for customers to meet girls and girls to meet customers. The trick is to turn that man into a regular, to turn a $20 dance into lifetime whale. He isn't there to buy dances. He is there to meet the girls.

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    Default Re: Four very interesting Essays from CGN.

    What is he saying that people paying attention aren't perfectly aware of though? I'll admit, I'm biased against anything he has to say because of the forum he moderates and the type of person it caters to. NOT camgirls, but bitter cam customers who feel guilty about their hobby and need some way to make themselves feel better. Usually goes the route of making us all out to be dirty lying whores or victimized sex slaves. Way too much focus on how EU models are being done a disservice. They flip-flop back and forth between feeling sorry for them and despising them. That's my least favorite outsider view of sex-workers, really. They either come full of hate or full of pity. What happened to backing off and letting us women do what we want? And if they really see a need to "help", they need to do more than preach to the choir or people looking for an excuse to cluck their tongues.

    I agree, I get pissed off when I see sites that should by all means be managed by women are instead run by men (femdom forums for example. Wtf?). Why is that? I have no clue. Maybe we're all still prey to the patriarchal rule of the past and don't feel the need to step up and claim things for ourselves. THAT needs to change. I'm adamant about that, but until the workers in this industry stop going crazy about perceived competition and instead band together on a specific project, it won't happen. Shoot, there's even drama with the MEN who run all these sites. It's ridiculous.

    TL ; DR I'm with Buffy. Wth are we supposed to do that we aren't already? We have no control over women that write "I'm For Sale" above their twats. Like really. What do we do? Boycott? They'll just laugh us off and 5 other girls who will do anything for the dollar will replace us, further degrading everything.

    I just don't know.

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    Default Re: Four very interesting Essays from CGN.

    I don't see the dirty lying whores part much on CGN, but definitely see the "victimized sex slaves" part as being quite valid. I wrote a long response to this, and I will probably post it here in the next day or so, after we get some other responses.

    B

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    Default Re: Four very interesting Essays from CGN.

    Quote Originally Posted by lilmisssunshine View Post
    I didn't read it all...I skimmed it.

    I don't think the point is to cam or not to cam.

    It is discussing the direction of camming, which IMO is going the way of music right now.

    Music is being pirated, too.

    But music is also no longer about music anymore either. When is the last time you heard a top 40 song that was actually a great composition. It's about hypnotizing the masses. It's a mass seduction. It's about being a rock star. It's whats in.

    Camming isn't so much about sex. They can download porn anywhere to get a sexual need filled. It's about being that girlfriend. A girl isn't gonna compete on MFC by doing a better sex show than the next, she is gonna compete by continuing to seduce the masses. She will have to be a "camstar".

    I just coined a new phrase, lol.

    So as what does that mean as site producers are selling out girls by selling vids for a quick buck, etc.? It means that the girls that are here to simply make a buck by merely selling sex are gonna get sold out. The girls that make it are the girls who are in it to win it.

    Same thing with strip clubs. Strip clubs are not REALLY selling sex or table dances. Table dances are just a means for customers to meet girls and girls to meet customers. The trick is to turn that man into a regular, to turn a $20 dance into lifetime whale. He isn't there to buy dances. He is there to meet the girls.
    But isn't that what camming/stripping/escorting has always been about? It's weird too, seeing how extreme people are and all the performers getting jaded because they think they have to fist themselves and shoot lemons out of their asses to sell a show. That's what in-person sex services have always been about, attention. So again, I'm confused as to what this guys ultimate point is. Like I said when I first found the site and went on an hour-long rant to my husband about it, all these people are tore-up inside because they forgot that this is a BUSINESS. What did they expect? True, not everyone that's in it can freely get out, but if that's their problem, they need to spend time fighting sex trafficking as that's the real problem.

    Not at all attacking you, I agree with what you said. Just trying to expand upon my thoughts.

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    Default Re: Four very interesting Essays from CGN.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bambalina View Post
    I don't see the dirty lying whores part much on CGN, but definitely see the "victimized sex slaves" part as being quite valid. I wrote a long response to this, and I will probably post it here in the next day or so, after we get some other responses.

    B
    Ah, maybe that sticks out in my mind because of the guy who says he got "scammed" by a Romanian model who wanted him to send her diamonds even though it was illegal...and he did it anyway. She took the money and ran. He was livid, going on the usual tirade of "they're only here for the money!!!" and it's like...yeah. Wal-Mart only wants your money. Burger King only wants your money. Again, this is BUSINESS, a customer service of sorts. I don't agree with what the Romanian model did at all, but it was really stupid of that guy to delude himself like that and then try to displace the blame. He had to be trying hard, honestly.

    Good luck on the response!

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    Default Re: Four very interesting Essays from CGN.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spinnerette View Post
    I'll admit, I'm biased against anything he has to say because of the forum he moderates and the type of person it caters to. NOT camgirls, but bitter cam customers who feel guilty about their hobby and need some way to make themselves feel better. Usually goes the route of making us all out to be dirty lying whores or victimized sex slaves. Way too much focus on how EU models are being done a disservice. They flip-flop back and forth between feeling sorry for them and despising them. That's my least favorite outsider view of sex-workers, really. They either come full of hate or full of pity. What happened to backing off and letting us women do what we want? And if they really see a need to "help", they need to do more than preach to the choir or people looking for an excuse to cluck their tongues.

    I agree, I get pissed off when I see sites that should by all means be managed by women are instead run by men
    I noticed all of that too. That forum makes me feel ill.

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    Default Re: Four very interesting Essays from CGN.

    I Agree^^ Its its just jumbled rants , accusations , finger pointing ,without a true meaning , You have to a actual cam girl , or many , before assuming we have no choice , we are whores, We dont have personal lives , that are actually normal , I myself , am very normal outside of cam , I dont hump the cucumbers in the veggie section , or suck my finger when guys walk by , Lol i set at home , and fuss with the husband and kid =P

    I myself LOVE camming , I love working from home , I love meeting friends (Yes we can actually meet friends doing this) I love the work environment (My room , next to a bag of chips , and my fav music blasting) Sure it has some downs , but what job dosnt , Ied MUCh rather doing this then a vinila shmilla job=P
    Americanmade18 on most sites.

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    Default Re: Four very interesting Essays from CGN.

    Ya that totally made me want to quit my job... Until I remembered that I DONT feel even a tiny bit victimized. Guys can yell out whatever demAnds they want even in pvt but that doesn't mean I'm actually going to do it if I don't feel like it. These men can't degrade and hold power over poor little me if I don't let them. Seriously, it's not like I don't have free will. Im not for sale I perform a service and I have the power to deny said service as I see fit. We arent all victims, not even slightly.

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  18. #15
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    Default Re: Four very interesting Essays from CGN.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arialandre View Post
    We arent all victims, not even slightly.
    Well, I see it that so many people come at this from the wrong angles...and then the response (as in here Aria) is to argue back from the wrong angles, since the set-up was from the wrong angle in the first place...

    I see it that ALL camgirls at this moment are victimized. HOWEVER, I don't use the loaded language or the "poor women who we must protect" language to describe this....

    Tell me ladies, do you agree or not? with what I say here:

    The existing camsite structure is paternalistic, owned by men who are out for a buck and care little for the camgirl's income. It is the same as every other industry owned by men where women are paid less than they deserve, and where the top echelon of power makes the HUGE money, except in Camming, there is a difference. The camgirl IS the content. The business revolves around her and cannot exist without her. So her pay-rate and her ability to perform in a way which truly brings money to her pockets, is dictated by those who do NOT produce the product, or even pay for it.

    Now that up there describes a victimization of YOU as a female by a structure you had NO input in setting up. If we were to take the reins and run this ourselves, there would be no slavery/trafficking, there would be no unlimited chat for Guests, there would be no 35% pay-rates on cam-sites, but until we DO, there will be no TRULY viable alternatives, and THAT is what we fall victim to.

    B

  19. #16
    God/dess laurielegs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Four very interesting Essays from CGN.

    I think it'll take a small miracle to pull this off, but I'm beginning to think it's actually possible! I never thought the top hosts would leave Ifriends either, but I have seen that happen too.

    The bottom line is traffic and profits. If they are there and the word spreads, nobody will be able to stop the growth of any site.

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  21. #17
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    Default Re: Four very interesting Essays from CGN.

    I dunno. AW is a pretty viable alternative, but maybe that's just me. I fucking love that site.

  22. #18
    God/dess laurielegs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Four very interesting Essays from CGN.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    I dunno. AW is a pretty viable alternative, but maybe that's just me. I fucking love that site.
    It's a great setup but I really doubt they have the kind of traffic to support a lot of hosts.

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  24. #19
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    Default Re: Four very interesting Essays from CGN.

    aw is a good set up in the right direction but they need help with the navigation/design. seriously

    I only want to work for sites that are run BY WOMEN FOR WOMEN fuck all these men running shit when they aren't putting in the actual work AKA the performers.

    The only thing I want men for is their money in this industry.

    There needs to be more women in the IT /computer field. Women owning web hosting companies/servers/web designers the WHOLE SHEEBANG.

    This is a mans world and look at what it's gotten us LOLz. fuck 'em

  25. #20
    God/dess Arialandre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Four very interesting Essays from CGN.

    Hmmm, I would have to say no I still don't feel "victimized". I feel like I am part of a shitty hierarchy that is in desperate need of change but I don't feel like a victims as I work within the system of my own free will and may leave whenever I choose, so I think that term is simply the wrong term for me. I started camming in a strong cam girl bonded environment of a sit, female owned and have NEVER made less than 50%.
    I started sm yesterday priced myself too low, felt like shit and left, because I refuse to allow myself to be in a situation where I feel taken advantage of or victimized.
    Yes not everyone us like this. Yes some women truly are victims. But I have been through way to much life to play the rules of some pimply little small dick boy behind his computer.
    Sorry but I am just WAY to much of a Diva to play the victim game. Will I march for change? He'll yes I will. But in the meantime I do my job with my eyes wide open, make my business decisions after much thought and deal with the consequences whatever they may be.
    I am only joining sm after a YEAR of camming. Why? Because the site is EVIL. But I am curious as to see if it can be of some sort of use to me. If it's not worth it I simply walk away. Where is the victim in that.
    Yes these sites are bullshit. Yes these men are trying to ride our bodies to the bank. But when you start feeling like a "victim" when u DONT have sone pimp chaining you to your computer all day is when you lose the mental war. Don't be victims be smart ass women. Make clear and concise choices. Figure out ways to make these sites work for you. Go Indy. Create a camgirl owned website. But the moment you start whimpering about being a "victim" is the moment you stop being in control and start being weak. Victims have no control. We do. We have choices that we can make to make our camming careers better. Don't be a "victim".

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  27. #21
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    Default Re: Four very interesting Essays from CGN.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arialandre View Post
    Hmmm, I would have to say no I still don't feel "victimized". I feel like I am part of a shitty hierarchy that is in desperate need of change but I don't feel like a victims as I work within the system of my own free will and may leave whenever I choose, so I think that term is simply the wrong term for me. I started camming in a strong cam girl bonded environment of a sit, female owned and have NEVER made less than 50%.
    I started sm yesterday priced myself too low, felt like shit and left, because I refuse to allow myself to be in a situation where I feel taken advantage of or victimized.
    Yes not everyone us like this. Yes some women truly are victims. But I have been through way to much life to play the rules of some pimply little small dick boy behind his computer.
    Sorry but I am just WAY to much of a Diva to play the victim game. Will I march for change? He'll yes I will. But in the meantime I do my job with my eyes wide open, make my business decisions after much thought and deal with the consequences whatever they may be.
    I am only joining sm after a YEAR of camming. Why? Because the site is EVIL. But I am curious as to see if it can be of some sort of use to me. If it's not worth it I simply walk away. Where is the victim in that.
    Yes these sites are bullshit. Yes these men are trying to ride our bodies to the bank. But when you start feeling like a "victim" when u DONT have sone pimp chaining you to your computer all day is when you lose the mental war. Don't be victims be smart ass women. Make clear and concise choices. Figure out ways to make these sites work for you. Go Indy. Create a camgirl owned website. But the moment you start whimpering about being a "victim" is the moment you stop being in control and start being weak. Victims have no control. We do. We have choices that we can make to make our camming careers better. Don't be a "victim".
    Let the church say "Amen".

  28. #22
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    Default Re: Four very interesting Essays from CGN.

    Thanks for the critical feedback.. I have learned a lot and listened hard.. even when you were saying hard things to hear about me and one of our senior male members.
    I have responded to you on CGN and reposted many of the most critical comments you made so that our members can have a better idea of the reputation we have established for ourselves.
    http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/i...=0&#entry18492
    Of course this is not exactly a new debate for us.. the problems get discussed time and time again but somehow never entirely fixed...That's what comes from catering to several different audiences and satisfying none of them completely.. .lol
    http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/i...showtopic=1349
    Anyway thanks for the feedback, and all the interesting posts on the theme of victimization.
    Ofc there are victims out there as you are discussing in the Sex Trafficking thread.
    The models area is available to all of you who recently joined our board. It's as secure as we can possibly make it, and it's girls only, so I can promise that no male trolls will jump all over your threads.
    ciao
    UL
    Last edited by Cyrano22; 02-25-2011 at 03:09 PM.

  29. #23
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    Default Re: Four very interesting Essays from CGN.

    Ahhhh observation: Yes, SW is VERY business-oriented as that's what this board was made for. If you look at all the forums contain within, they all have that slant for the most part. What negatives do you expect to be discussed here? For people based in North America, Australia, and the UK (the majority of registered users), I think that mostly stops with pay & douchey customers?

  30. #24
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    Default Re: Four very interesting Essays from CGN.

    Yup even the pt camming ladies here tend to look at this like a business. Work the angles and get that money.

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