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Thread: What's with the incest guys?!

  1. #26
    Veteran Member sexandgrammar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's with the incest guys?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Camateur View Post
    http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/S...ve?oid=3347526

    So here's a link to an interesting article on Dan Savage about a guy asking a question as if he was a pedophile. The expert Dr. James Canter responds and says that there are only 2 ways to relieve pedophilic urges, non of which involve cam girls in age play:

    Chemical Castration
    Physical Castration

    To most people the above would be enough info to be able to deduct that anything "underage" combined with "sexual" is WAY to stimulating to the sex offender if most experts recommend castration..BUT to cover all bases; I went ahead and emailed Dr. James Canter (distinguished human sexuality and pedophilia researcher) and asked him the question:

    Does under-age role play with cam hosts aggravate or relieve pedophiliic urges?
    I will post his response here on SW.

    Dan Savage, though always entertaining, is hardly the sort of source that means much in this already highly subjective argument.

    Moreover, though, you kind of already proved my point with the whole "non of which involve cam girls in age play [stet]" bit. If the ageplay that camgirls--or any sex workers, for that matter--engage in is largely irrelevant to real pedophilia, then... the ageplay that camgirls engage in is largely irrelevant to real pedophilia.

    Finally, emailing one doctor to ask him one question is HARDLY "[covering] all bases." Sorry if this sounds bitchy, but when you insist that the argument you're making is 100% true, even when it implicates and ACCUSES other women (like those of us who not only practice ageplay in our sex work but ALSO in our personal relationships), you're opening yourself up to heavy-duty interrogation.

  2. #27
    Veteran Member Camateur's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's with the incest guys?!

    Well I wasn't using Dan Savage as an authority just that the most recent article regarding pedophiles was posted on his forum. There's surprising little research being done in this field at the moment so to find even one doctor who is "known" for this is good. In fact this doctor and two others are currently the only people I could find at all who are still alive lol. In any case this doctor literally responded to me overnight; I think his response is interesting and definitely doesn't favor my take on things (for me; I still don't think it's right and I will continue to not provide age play)


    From: (my email)
    Sent: March 9, 2011 11:37 PM
    To: James Cantor
    Subject: Need Some Guidance Regarding Pedophiles and Age Play Online

    Dear Dr. Cantor,

    Hi, I belong to a big message board online called StripperWeb. The message board is for exotic dancers and for professional web cam hosts and models. I am a part time web cam girl on a site called Adultwork.com. On this site they allow incest roleplay as well as under-age play. I simply refuse anyone who asks for either. Recently on our message board there has been a "debate" between the members who do offer this type of age play. These members say that it is a "healthy outlet" for would be pedophiles and "better they act out their fantasies with web cam girls than act out on one of their young daughters." My position is that if these fantasies are allowed, an audience, they can "gain momentum" until these would be offenders get bored of the web cam girl and move on to real children. So what say you?

    Does age role-play aggravate or relieve pedophilia?

    Thank you in advance for your time!

    Sincerely,

    (my name)


    His Response:


    Hi (my name) That is indeed a tough question. Unfortunately, there isn't any solid science on either side. (And the powers-that-be have essentially blocked researchers from ever doing that science.)

    In my work with sex offenders against children, a sizeable minority do indeed try out legal ways of carrying out their fantasies before deciding that that wasn't enough. This doesn't mean that the legal things caused them to progress, however. They had their real desires in mind all along. It's useful to think of this as similar to teenaged boys who use porn and engage in kissing and oral sex before ever having intercourse...The heavy petting doesn't cause them to want intercourse, it's just the best they could get away with at first.

    On the flip side, I also hear from many pedophiles (or "hebephiles" when they prefer kids about 11-14), who have never done anything inappropriate with anyone and say that they are very aware of what their desires mean and that the best they can ever do is to approximate them in fantasy. We hear from people like this less often than from offenders, however, because the police never need to become involved, and there is little reason for these folks to come to a psychologist on their own. We sometimes call these people the "dunkelfeld" (or "dark field," named after a research study going on in Germany aimed at helping these people stay celibate). Dan Savage and I once wrote an article about these people, "Gold Star Pedophiles," as he nicknamed them.

    So, the bottom line (for me personally) is that we don't have any good evidence in either direction; but my general philosophy about sex is never to stop people from doing what they want without first having solid evidence behind me.

    I hope that's a help.

    - James Cantor

    --------------------------------------
    James M. Cantor, PhD, CPsych
    Head, CAMH Law & Mental Health Research Section
    Associate Professor of Psychiatry, University of Toronto
    Editor-in-Chief, Sexual Abuse: A Journal of Research and Treatment
    250 College Street, Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5T 1R8
    http://individual.utoronto.ca/james_cantor

  3. #28
    Veteran Member Camateur's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's with the incest guys?!

    Dan Savage, though always entertaining, is hardly the sort of source that means much in this already highly subjective argument.

    Moreover, though, you kind of already proved my point with the whole "non of which involve cam girls in age play [stet]" bit. If the ageplay that camgirls--or any sex workers, for that matter--engage in is largely irrelevant to real pedophilia, then... the ageplay that camgirls engage in is largely irrelevant to real pedophilia.

    Well there's no conclusive evidence (as of now) one way or the other.

    Finally, emailing one doctor to ask him one question is HARDLY "[covering] all bases." Sorry if this sounds bitchy, but when you insist that the argument you're making is 100% true,
    No never claimed any percentages^^^would never until there's research to back this up; I am in the science field myself.

    "even when it implicates and ACCUSES other women"

    If I was accusatory then I apologize, this is a very sensitive issue for not just me but a lot of the sex workers on SW. You have to understand that a fair percentage of us are incest survivors.

    (like those of us who not only practice ageplay in our sex work but ALSO in our personal relationships), you're opening yourself up to heavy-duty interrogation.


    "]I do take issue with this^^^ I NEVER made any statement about age play in our/your personal lives. It's my opinion that when you are with a lover, partner or husband it's assumed that you know that they are not abusing children right? so you know your participation in age play is not fueling their desire to then offend on a child.

    conversely in the online world we're not priviledged w/ the knowledge that the Tom, Dick or Harry who requests this is not a possible offender or an active offender himself. It's only the online world that I take issue with.

  4. #29
    Veteran Member BellaBellini's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's with the incest guys?!

    Incest or underage role play doesn't mean all those people are guilty of incest or sexual assault in their 'real' lives. There is nothing wrong with role play if it is consensual. That means you should be completely ok with it also.

    I know money is tight for a lot of people. But I also know that a lot of women have been sexually assaulted or abused by a family member. If you have been sexually assaulted, I would try and stay away from situations that make you feel uncomfortable. Or just going along with it to make money.

    Some survivors of sexual assault do work through their problems by playing around with taboo topics. So if age play makes you feel powerful because you are controlling the situation in the role play, then don't feel guilty it.

    But if you are triggered, start hating yourself and your job, then stay away from those kind of clients. There are other fetishes and taboo niches out there. You will still make money.

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    Veteran Member cherriebomb's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's with the incest guys?!

    This is a fascinating thread!

    Im not comfortable with "age play" myself because of some things that happened to me and my sisters when I was younger. I kinda hesitated to post my personal experience here but Im not ashamed of it because nothing that happened was my fault. Plus you girls are all so supportive and cool that I feel comfortable sharing.

    Basically my younger sister and I were molested by my moms boyfriend. I lived with him from the time I was 11 to the time I moved out around 19. When I was about 12 years old I remember walking to the kitchen to get a drink, I was wearing a skirt, he grabbed me out of no where and lifted me up above his head and just held me there staring up my skirt. I screamed and told him to put me down, and after what felt like eternity he did. It was things like that on a daily basis that he would do to make you feel really uncomfortable. I would actually hold my breath if I had to be in the same room with him.

    My mom never really believed us and it was all kind of horrible. Ive moved on and forgive my mom for staying with him (shes still with him to this day) but its something I will never forget.

    I try not to judge anyone and try to keep an open mind but when a custy asks for this it definitely triggers something in me and makes me "flashback" to memories and feelings I would not like to relive. I definitely dont do it on purpose but I dont think I would ever be comfortable with it because it makes me feel victimized.

    I do know age play is a very common fantasy though and I dont necessarily think because someone is into it they would ever really fantasize about an actual child. I mean hell, their are things I say/do/think during sex that when I think about it later Im like....WTF was I thinking lol? So I get it, its just not for me.
    Last edited by cherriebomb; 03-10-2011 at 03:29 PM.

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  8. #31
    Veteran Member sexandgrammar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's with the incest guys?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Camateur View Post
    There's surprising little research being done in this field at the moment so to find even one doctor who is "known" for this is good...
    There's a LOT of research being done in the field of sexuality studies, specifically role-play, BDSM, etc., which is what this conversation was about. If I'm not mistaken, you're one of the people who's tried to make the conversation about pedophilia, against some resistance. That said, there's also a great deal of research--both psychological and social--presently being done about pedophilia, and so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that there's a dearth.

    Still, I've been trying to insist that ageplay has NOTHING to do with pedophilia, and so I feel, especially, that the following message to Dr. Cantor greatly distorts & indeed simplifies an otherwise rich debate:

    Quote Originally Posted by Camateur View Post
    These members say that it is a "healthy outlet" for would be pedophiles and "better they act out their fantasies with web cam girls than act out on one of their young daughters."
    Once more: I believe that any expression of sexuality, if it's practiced within a consensual relationship, is valid. Actually, I believe that as long as it's honest, it's quite beautiful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Camateur View Post
    If I was accusatory then I apologize, this is a very sensitive issue for not just me but a lot of the sex workers on SW. You have to understand that a fair percentage of us are incest survivors.
    I understand this intimately. And if I've come across as too confrontational in this conversation, I also apologize. It's just that, as I've said elsewhere, the issue of sexual choice is a very sore one for me. In so many places in our culture, people are shamed for their sexual fantasies. In so many articulations of feminism, women are made to feel like "irresponsible feminists" if they get off on rape fantasies, age play, or anything, really, that's un-politically correct. That sort of shaming of sexual desire makes me sick, and sad.

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    Veteran Member cherriebomb's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's with the incest guys?!

    If I was accusatory then I apologize, this is a very sensitive issue for not just me but a lot of the sex workers on SW. You have to understand that a fair percentage of us are incest survivors.
    I understand this totally, but like I said in my post I dont believe in my heart that just because someone is into age play during sex, its something they would actually carry out later on. I meant the whole tentacle thing is big in Japan but I dont think many people would actually do anything sexual with an octopus.

    We all need to do what we are comfortable with though and if age play crosses a line for you, as it does for me, dont do it.

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    Veteran Member sexandgrammar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's with the incest guys?!

    ^ Agreed! It's all about choice! And knowing your limits! You ladies are a serious inspiration in that regard, & I respect

  12. #34
    Veteran Member Camateur's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's with the incest guys?!

    "these members say that it is a "healthy outlet" for would be pedophiles and "better they act out their fantasies with web cam girls than act out on one of their young daughters."

    ^^this was not said by you but it was said by a member.

    I never meant to purposely steer the thread toward pedophilia at all, I'm not looking for any sort of sensationalism; it's a fear of mine to aggravate or encourage hebephilia and pedophilia and it's a conversation that imo absolutely needed to come to light; if not in an incest thread then where?

    that being said we'll agree to disagree and maybe perhaps agree we all learned something from Dr. Cantor's article and letter.

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    Veteran Member catgirl's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's with the incest guys?!

    i don't think it's so black and white as we all claim it to be..

    i think some of these guys could be offenders,
    some of them could just be into it..

    what really makes me not want to do it- is thinking that they could be an offender,
    and that's just awful and gross
    but.. anybody could- right? for christsake- the priest probably is

    anyways,
    everyone is different. everyone has different morals, ways of acting, thoughts.
    but i don't think it's something that should be ignored.
    it is interesting,
    and i don't want to contribute to something like that.

    one persoanl experience i had was a few weeks ago,
    a guy IMed me about a show-
    he said "you look like my stepdaughter, can you do a show for me?"
    i said "okay," a bit skeptical, but wanted to see what he would say..
    then he said "her mom is out of town, i am staying with her"
    i said "how old is she?"
    he said "13- she's in the shower.. do you want me to go in there with her?"

    i was speechless- didn't know whether or not to believe it, didn't know what to say- didn't want to hear anything else about it, so i blocked him
    i don't know if maybe he was looking for someone to say it was okay,..

    which brings up another thing i was wondering..
    if girls do these ageplay shows..
    will the guys at one point be horny and think "well, girls act it out and it must be okay"
    i don't know..
    anyways, i'm just interested

    thoughts?????

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    Featured Member MarvelGirl's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's with the incest guys?!

    Quote Originally Posted by catgirl View Post

    which brings up another thing i was wondering..
    if girls do these ageplay shows..
    will the guys at one point be horny and think "well, girls act it out and it must be okay"
    That's only valid if the man is mentally retarded or insane. A healthy human being knows damn well that fucking kids is not ok. Just like a healthy human being can play grand theft auto and not go out and steal cars, shoot cops and kill hookers.

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    Default Re: What's with the incest guys?!

    Quote Originally Posted by catgirl View Post
    what really makes me not want to do it- is thinking that they could be an offender,
    and that's just awful and gross


    If you don't want to do it, don't do it. I do it because I enjoy it. Not because I think I'm taking the moral high ground, and, conversely, not because I feel pressured to. It pushes some buttons in me that I like having pushed. So to speak.




    Ageplay is not a black and white issue. No one is saying it is. What is a black and white issue? Setting boundaries for yourself. Not putting yourself in a position where you end up finding every other customer "awful and gross." This just leads to oversimplification, thought-police type stuff, et cetera, and so forth.

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    Default Re: What's with the incest guys?!

    Quote Originally Posted by sexandgrammar View Post
    If you don't want to do it, don't do it. I do it because I enjoy it. Not because I think I'm taking the moral high ground, and, conversely, not because I feel pressured to. It pushes some buttons in me that I like having pushed. So to speak.

    Ageplay is not a black and white issue. No one is saying it is. What is a black and white issue? Setting boundaries for yourself. Not putting yourself in a position where you end up finding every other customer "awful and gross." This just leads to oversimplification, thought-police type stuff, et cetera, and so forth.
    Agreed. Incest and ageplay don't bother me at all so that's no big deal to me personally. But, I can't deal with guys who want me to cut off their dicks or anything that involves vomit or shit.

    It's easy enough though to say sorry I'm not into that. I might be thinking "ew, that's friggin' nasty" but I'm not going to condemn people for liking it or go all thought police and try to make thinking about eating shit or puking on your girlfriend illegal. Let them have their fun. If they take it too far and start kidnapping people to throw up on, well... we already have laws to deal with that.

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    Veteran Member BellaBellini's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's with the incest guys?!

    Quote Originally Posted by MarvelGirl View Post
    That's only valid if the man is mentally retarded or insane. A healthy human being knows damn well that fucking kids is not ok. Just like a healthy human being can play grand theft auto and not go out and steal cars, shoot cops and kill hookers.
    Although I agree that age play is fine if the cam girl and customer are both fine with it. Sadly, a large portion of the population usually blames the victim in cases of sexual assault. Even if the victim is a child.

    There was just a case of an 11 year old being gang raped. When the reporters interviewed people in the community they said things like 'she wore make up and acted older than her age' 'she hung out with older children'

    Statements like that suggest that lots of people think the victim must have been into it because she is a 'bad girl'.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/09/us...ault.html?_r=3

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  22. #40
    Veteran Member sexandgrammar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's with the incest guys?!

    ^ There was a pretty damning write-up of this very article on Jezebel: http://jezebel.com/#!5780022/media-b...-rape-coverage

    I agree, it's sick. It makes me fucking sick to my stomach, on so many different counts: the rape itself, of course, but also the community's reaction, which is a reflection of the culture-at-large's reaction--as evidenced in the Times piece.

    That said, I fail to see how bringing up this case does anything but further sensationalize. Like, to an irresponsible degree.

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    Veteran Member BellaBellini's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's with the incest guys?!

    Quote Originally Posted by sexandgrammar View Post
    ^ There was a pretty damning write-up of this very article on Jezebel: http://jezebel.com/#!5780022/media-b...-rape-coverage

    I agree, it's sick. It makes me fucking sick to my stomach, on so many different counts: the rape itself, of course, but also the community's reaction, which is a reflection of the culture-at-large's reaction--as evidenced in the Times piece.

    That said, I fail to see how bringing up this case does anything but further sensationalize. Like, to an irresponsible degree.
    You missed the point of why I referred to the case. I was responding to this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarvelGirl View Post
    That's only valid if the man is mentally retarded or insane. A healthy human being knows damn well that fucking kids is not ok. Just like a healthy human being can play grand theft auto and not go out and steal cars, shoot cops and kill hookers.
    I bolded the parts in the post I was responding to. There is a misconception that only insane people rape. The idea that only 'monsters' sexually assault people is problematic. The reality is that sexual assault is so common that it is impossible that all the perpetrators are insane.

    I'm not talking about pedophiles because pedophilia is a mental illness. But pedophiles are only attracted to pre-pubescent children. Someone who is attracted to a 13 year old isn't a pedophile.

    I think it is important for people to realize that most cases of sexual assault are because of problems that exist on a societal level. Putting the blame on insane individuals deflects from problems of patriarchy, racism, and classism. These are the real root causes that allow sexual assault to be seen as 'ok' and leads to victim blaming.

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    Default Re: What's with the incest guys?!

    Quote Originally Posted by BellaBellini View Post
    There is a misconception that only insane people rape.
    No, that is not what I was saying at all. Plenty of sane people commit crimes but they know that it's wrong. People don't rob banks and then go "Oh heavens to Betsy! I had no idea that stealing money was wrong! Goodness gracious, let me just go give it all back!" They know it's wrong but they do it anyways.

    If a person is not mentally handicapped or suffering from some sort of mental illness, they know that raping a child or murdering someone is wrong. They might hide behind the "But she wore MAKEUP!" defense but they know deep down that they shouldn't be forcing their penises into screaming, crying children.

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    Default Re: What's with the incest guys?!

    Quote Originally Posted by MarvelGirl View Post
    No, that is not what I was saying at all. Plenty of sane people commit crimes but they know that it's wrong. People don't rob banks and then go "Oh heavens to Betsy! I had no idea that stealing money was wrong! Goodness gracious, let me just go give it all back!" They know it's wrong but they do it anyways.

    If a person is not mentally handicapped or suffering from some sort of mental illness, they know that raping a child or murdering someone is wrong. They might hide behind the "But she wore MAKEUP!" defense but they know deep down that they shouldn't be forcing their penises into screaming, crying children.
    Ok, I totally agree with you now

    We can now return to the regular scheduled discussion that age play is fine as long as it is consensual

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    Default Re: What's with the incest guys?!

    Quote Originally Posted by catgirl View Post
    what really makes me not want to do it- is thinking that they could be an offender,
    and that's just awful and gross
    but.. anybody could- right? for christsake- the priest probably is
    I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but I would like to point out saying "the priest probably is" is a tad bit offensive. I know there is a huge issue of priests molesting underage children and engaging in sexual acts with their parishioners, but the is the same issue with some evidence pointing to more Protestant pastors/ministers abusing children than Catholic priests.

    I found this on a forum concerning Catholic sex scandals aptly named "It Ain't Just Catholic Priests" with tons of cited/sourced information.

    As to the issue of role-playing incestuous relationships or age play, I think there is a valid argument for both sides but seeing as there isn't a large study or multiple studies done on the subject (it would be really hard to do, I think), then you just have to go with your gut. I will say I am not as off-put by incestuous fantasies if it concerns brother/sister or cousins simply because such things sprouted up throughout history. Cleopatra V and Ptolemy XII were brother and sister, and Cleopatra VII married her younger brother, Ptolemy XIII. The royal houses of Bourbon, Hapsburg and Hohenzollern were known to married distant or even first cousins to keep the bloodline "pure". History shows us that these sorts of incestuous relationships are not uncommon (though not the norm). However, what does squick me out is the idea of father/daughter, mother/son, or any combination of an adult using their position of power over a child because it truly does seem wrong (e.g. "The Tale of Genji", Genji pretty much raises Murasaki-no-Ue and marries her when she is old enough to wed) and if anyone ever asked me to role play such a thing I would immediately say no and probably bring forth the ban hammer.

    With pedophilia, hebephilia, and ephebophilia, I can't say one way or another if I think it's helping or hurting because I rely more on studies and scentific evidence when it comes to forming those sorts of opinions. Could it create an outlet for someone's sexual desires and keep them from harming children and adolescents? Absolutely. But on the other end it could push some to be more daring and actually go out and do it in real life. Ephebophiles are a really big grey area to me because the age in which women were wed and had children has only rise in the past 100 years or so and I can sort of see where a couple thousand years of biology tells a man that a 16-17 year old is better in terms of childbearing than a 30 year old, but social norms and the changing times still win over with my conscience. I never want to wonder if I am going to be contributing to the potential harm of another through age-play, so I make a point to never even mess around or hint at it.

    Just my 02 cents.

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    Default Re: What's with the incest guys?!

    Quote Originally Posted by wrex View Post
    I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but I would like to point out saying "the priest probably is" is a tad bit offensive.
    Yeah, really.


    (Sidenote: I love that you referenced "The Tale of Genji"!)

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    Default Re: What's with the incest guys?!

    Quote Originally Posted by sexandgrammar View Post
    Yeah, really.


    (Sidenote: I love that you referenced "The Tale of Genji"!)
    *gasp* Have you read it? The only person I know who has read it is my aunt, but she is a professor of Japanese Anthropology at Oxford. I read the unabridged version my freshman year of high school! I loved it to pieces.

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    Default Re: What's with the incest guys?!

    Quote Originally Posted by wrex View Post
    *gasp* Have you read it?

    ALMOST. Almost. It was read/retold to me when I was growing up. I'm a lazy English major, it's true. HA! PM'ed you

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