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Thread: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    IMHO even in today's poor economy, if a serious professional dancer isn't earning $100k / 50 weeks / 5 nights = $400 a night on the average, then she either isn't 'serious' or she isn't 'professional' ! One attribute of being serious, for exotic dancers and college graduates alike, is a willingness to relocate to different areas of the country which offer a better earnings potential. I would argue that a significant number of dancers, as well as a significant number of college graduates, are working at a vastly compromised 'pay rate' because they insist on remaining in an economically depressed area.

    Arguably the reason that the majority of dancers are not in that situation is because they don't view exotic dancing as a serious career option ... but instead view it as a secondary and short term measure to produce some reasonable amount of income while they prepare to do something else as a 'real' career.
    Nobody would accuse you of holding the bar too low.

    But out of roughly 3,000 strip clubs nationwide, how many of these clubs do you think are located in economically robust areas and otherwise have the right conditions for serious, sustained dancer earning? A couple of hundred at most?

    Heck, in all of Manhattan there are only 15 clubs. Now even if we factor some of the higher-end clubs in the outer boroughs and NJ/CT suburbs, the number of clubs that might consistently support this type of earning is small. In Boston there are only two clubs and, in fact, only 32 in the entire state of MA. And of course, some of these clubs are shitholes in depressed parts of the state. In Chicago, there are only five clubs in the city proper. Now there are some clubs in wealthier suburbs, but still the total number of well situated clubs is small.

    I could go on. The reality is that the vast majority of clubs in the U.S. are in areas that are not very wealthy, including large swaths of the South and Midwest. Now there are pockets of wealth in many of these areas, but I would bet that if you tallied up all the clubs in the U.S. where earning potential is consistently good, you'd come up with a list that is a small percentage of the total number of clubs nationwide.

    And, of course, this discussion does not even factor in what it means to "average" $400 per night. Since many of these clubs have slower nights of the week and slower times of year, the dancer has to average significantly higher during other days of the week and certain times of the year to make up for the slower periods, unless of course she is willing to migrate throughout the year.

    Now I understand what you are saying about serious dancers, but I'm not sure that I would label a dancer as not being a professional because she has life situations that restrict her ability to move around. IMHO only a small percentage of dancers have the ease of mobility (i.e., no kids or other encumbrances), nevermind the willingness to sacrifice, that it would take to live up to those standards. Heck, I strongly suspect (though of course I do not know) that you had to sacrifice a great deal to get to where you are today.
    Last edited by rickdugan; 05-05-2011 at 05:46 PM. Reason: spelling and grammar

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Heck, I strongly suspect (though I of course do not know) that you had to sacrifice a great deal to get to where you are today.
    Just like you RickDugan, you bet your a$$ that I made a lot of sacrifices !!! 25,000 miles put on my car every year ! Carrying around 18 pounds worth of breast implants ! Acting sultry and smiley for guys who literally stunk ! Leaving my son with relatives 30+ weeks a year !

    That's one major aspect of being 'serious'. This is the same issue if we're talking about exotic dancers or engineers or any other professionals. For example, IMHO an unemployed engineer who remains in Detroit with no hope of being rehired by an auto plant thus accepting whatever low paying jobs are available while collecting extended unemployment benefits, instead of packing up and moving to say a new auto plant in Tennessee, simply isn't 'serious' about advancing their career.

    Granted that this hypothetical engineer may have the same issues you cited re dancers i.e. family in the area, trapped in an underwater mortgage making sale of a house a losing proposition etc. But in the final analysis, the unemployed Detroit engineer who refuses to move to a more economically promising area is putting personal issues ahead of 'career' - exactly the same as many dancers. There's nothing wrong with making such a choice, but it does have career consequences !

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    This article is great. However I don't believe a highly trained housecat could successfully pass my accounting class this past semester. Over half the class dropped out along the course of a semester and we r talking at a community college. Each class and each instructor is different. Also the main Biology prof at my school is known as a teacher who expects alot out of his students. You must work hard to achieve a good grade. They rnt exactly being handed out.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    ^^Yes, and in that case, those challenging courses are very good for the student who brings into the class talent, motivation and at least a good idea of what s/he'll do with that knowledge. That's what real higher education should be about. Their investment is a good one (note: a "good investment" in this sense meaning not always the most monetarily profitable in the short term; there are also intangibles such as personal satisfaction to be considered).

    There is a tendency to overstate the degree of loss of rigor in schools, but that has a root in truth tied to another trend: In many cases we've diluted the value of Higher Education by making a BA, "any" BA, a mere punch-the-ticket mechanical requirement even for work that has little about it requiring true higher scholarship. The market, being efficient, it responds by creating courses and curricula that enable it to be so. The rigorous programs (and faculty and students thereof) are still there but kind of hard to notice. (And that's not to mention the expectation that at a mere age of 17 you should commit to a Higher Education curriculum, not everyone is up to it right then.)

    College CAN be a very good investment, but it's EDUCATION that is a vital investment for everyone, and it may take the form of a standard college degree or another form depending on what it is you seek. If your aspiration in life is work in engineering/advanced sciences/medicine/the Law and such, formal Higher Education is the preferred mode... but for other pursuits, there may be other paths. The ideal is that everyone have the opportunity to choose his/her path, not be excluded for reasons unrelated to their talent and motivation.

    As in other fields of life, YMMV.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ the high school graduate with $25k in earnings would also pay payroll ( i.e. social security and medicare ) taxes ... but a significantly lower annual dollar amount of them compared to the $40k college graduate due to the fixed percentage nature of these taxes ( in exchange for essentially equal future social security and medicare benefits). As to local taxes, that would depend on the nature of the tax i.e. NYC income tax would cost the college graduate but the high school graduate would pay zero. As to benefit eligibility, in NY a $25k income level single person would qualify for subsidized rent and subsidized utilities. And once a wife and/or children enter the picture, the eligibility for other social welfare benefits vastly favors the high school graduate.

    Again the more 'rocks' one turns over, the more it actually favors the 'poor' high school graduate over the 'lower middle class' college graduate ... at least under current US federal and state tax and benefit policies. Granted that those policies could be changed in the future - which would alter the equation - but for the foreseeable future the trend seems to be rising income taxes ( that would negatively affect the college graduate more than the high school graduate ) and NO reduction in social welfare spending ( that would positively affect the high school graduate more than the college graduate ). Current gov't policy also encourages US employers to eliminate 'lower middle class' professional jobs ... via H1B visa insourcing of lower pay foreign college graduates, via outsourcing of services to foreign firms, via outsourcing of production to foreign factories etc. ... all of which negatively affect the college graduate more than the high school graduate.
    No, the more you make things up, the more it actually favors the 'poor' high school graduate over the 'lower middle class' college graduate. You don't provide any facts or figures to support your claims. The average salary for college graduates in 2010 was $47,673. In certain specialized fields, the average salary is even higher. For graduates with computer-related degrees, the average salary is $58,746.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/25/bu...5gradjobs.html

    I'm sure that's far higher than the average worker with only a high school degree. In addition to the higher salary, the unemployment rate is much higher for people who don't have college degrees, than those who do. The unemployment rate for college graduates is 4.2% compared to 9.4% for high school graduates.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/freee...ess_recovery_0


    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Back to the original point, it's still not an 'apples to apples' comparison to just look at relative annual income levels ( pre tax or after tax ) once the college graduate has completed their degree and begins earning a paycheck. Doing so ignores the fact that the high school graduate has already earned 4 years worth of paychecks that the college graduate did not. Doing so also ignores the fact that the high school graduate was able to devote all of their discretionary income towards improving their standard of living whereas the college graduate must devote some portion of their discretionary income towards tuition costs ( either while studying, or after they graduate via student loans, or both ). So a true 'apples to apples' comparison must look at 40 years of earnings for the high school graduate versus 36 years of earnings for the college graduate, and must also look at zero tuition costs for the high school graduate versus X thousands of dollars of tuition costs for the college graduate. Granted that where some college degrees are concerned, the overall equation favors the college graduate. But there are now many MANY cases where the overall equation results in the college graduate being a net 'loser'.

    The main point of this thread remains - that it's no longer safe to simply assume that college will always be a good investment.

    ~
    It was never safe to assume college would be a good investment. If anything, this was more true in the past, when there was a much greater demand for unskilled labor. With the competitive job market we have today, having a college degree in a good field can make a big difference.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    No, the more you make things up, the more it actually favors the 'poor' high school graduate over the 'lower middle class' college graduate. You don't provide any facts or figures to support your claims. The average salary for college graduates in 2010 was $47,673. In certain specialized fields, the average salary is even higher. For graduates with computer-related degrees, the average salary is $58,746.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/25/bu...5gradjobs.html

    I'm sure that's far higher than the average worker with only a high school degree. In addition to the higher salary, the unemployment rate is much higher for people who don't have college degrees, than those who do. The unemployment rate for college graduates is 4.2% compared to 9.4% for high school graduates.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/freee...ess_recovery_0




    It was never safe to assume college would be a good investment. If anything, this was more true in the past, when there was a much greater demand for unskilled labor. With the competitive job market we have today, having a college degree in a good field can make a big difference.
    You have just swung and missed on a big, fat softball. Income is NOT the issue. Student DEBT is the issue ! Yes, college grads make more and are more likely to be employed but at what cost ? AFTER you factor in how much student debt they have accumulated ( which has to be paid back ) THEN how is the average college grad REALLY doing ? Compared to a community college grad ? A trade school grad ? A military vet with transferrable skills and experience ? That doesn't include comparing grads from public universities against those from more prestigious and MUCH more expensive private colleges.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    You have just swung and missed on a big fat softball. The additional amount of income a college graduate will earn over a high school graduate, on average, is far more than the amount of the student loan they will have to pay off.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    You have just swung and missed on a big fat softball. The additional amount of income a college graduate will earn over a high school graduate, on average, is far more than the amount of the student loan they will have to pay off.
    Sorry for personalizing. I apologize but it's like you are trapped in a time warp. Everything you are saying used to be true. That WAS how it was. The present reality is much different.

    Wages have been stagnant for over a decade but college tuitions have been increasing at much more than the rate of inflation during the same period of time. Jobs are a LOT harder to come by NOW than a few years ago. Even with a grace period, many college grads are starting out with $100,000 ; $200,000 and even more in loan debt. With graduate degrees it can be $250,000. Many doctors owe close to $500,000 before billing a single patient ! Any increase to their incomes attributable to having that sheepskin are more than swallowed up by their huge loan repayments. And if they default ? Their credit is busted for years.

    Remember please some of our other threads in this forum documenting things like abuse of the H1-B Visa system that brings in foreigners to take the higher paying jobs in engineering and computers thus squeezing out native born Americans.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    The additional amount of income a college graduate will earn over a high school graduate, on average, is far more than the amount of the student loan they will have to pay off.
    Going back to the 'looking under rocks' idea, in truth it doesn't matter how the income statistics played out for Americans who graduated from college 10-20-30 years ago. Indeed many have worked up the career ladder and are still holding high paying jobs while much more recent college graduates are being laid off or simply not being hired. What DOES matter is the future income statistics for NEW college graduates ... who must compete with now jobless earlier graduates who have actual work experience, who must compete with H1B 'imported' graduates who think a $30,000 a year starting salary is Nirvana compared to what they would otherwise be paid in Mumbai or Shanghai or Azerbaijan, and who must compete with Americans who graduated 40 years ago but who failed to accumulate enough savings to allow them to retire at age 62-65 !

    And Eric Stoner is absolutely correct that, even for new graduates who are lucky enough to actually be hired, pay rates have been stagnant for years ( actually, entry level pay rates have declined in many professions ) while the cost of college tuition has continued to increase ( in some cases dramatically ). This effectively increases their 'student loan debt' burden ... to the point where it may involve annual payments of $5k-$10-even more that must be repaid with 'after tax' earnings over the course of the next 10-20 years !!! If student loan debt repayment requires a differential of more than $7k-$14k a year in 'pre tax' earnings, it is indeed likely that many new college grads will NOT be able to earn this much differential over the $25k or whatever typical earnings potential of a new high school grad. And if that is the case, the new college grads will actually be worse off financially than the high school grads ... without even counting the fact that the high school grads will have earned four years worth of additional paychecks while the college grads were studying !

    Also a reminder that since Sallie Mae i.e. the US gov't has now bought up 90%+ of all outstanding student loans, if a college grad defaults on their student loans the gov't held ones are NOT DISCHARGEABLE VIA BANKRUPTCY. This means that the US gov't has put itself at the head of the line before mortgage lenders, before auto lenders, before credit card lenders etc. Student loan debt ... as well as extra interest charged on delinquent student loan debt ... has now become an inescapable albatross. Also, the gov't has given itself the authority to potentially sieze assets and/or garnish wages to satisfy delinquent student loans.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Sorry for personalizing. I apologize but it's like you are trapped in a time warp. Everything you are saying used to be true. That WAS how it was. The present reality is much different.

    Wages have been stagnant for over a decade but college tuitions have been increasing at much more than the rate of inflation during the same period of time. Jobs are a LOT harder to come by NOW than a few years ago. Even with a grace period, many college grads are starting out with $100,000 ; $200,000 and even more in loan debt. With graduate degrees it can be $250,000. Many doctors owe close to $500,000 before billing a single patient ! Any increase to their incomes attributable to having that sheepskin are more than swallowed up by their huge loan repayments. And if they default ? Their credit is busted for years.
    There are colleges and universities that you can go to without running up $100,000 - $200,000 in debt. Here's a list of 25 of the cheapest schools in the US:

    http://degreecentral.com/the-cheapes...ls-in-america/

    Their annual costs range from $2,400 per academic year to $11,612. In addition, many students qualify for financial aid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Remember please some of our other threads in this forum documenting things like abuse of the H1-B Visa system that brings in foreigners to take the higher paying jobs in engineering and computers thus squeezing out native born Americans.
    From what I've read, employers are having trouble finding enough workers in engineering and other technical fields. I actually know people in Information Technology that have recently been looking for jobs and had no problem finding one.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Going back to the 'looking under rocks' idea, in truth it doesn't matter how the income statistics played out for Americans who graduated from college 10-20-30 years ago. Indeed many have worked up the career ladder and are still holding high paying jobs while much more recent college graduates are being laid off or simply not being hired. What DOES matter is the future income statistics for NEW college graduates ... who must compete with now jobless earlier graduates who have actual work experience, who must compete with H1B 'imported' graduates who think a $30,000 a year starting salary is Nirvana compared to what they would otherwise be paid in Mumbai or Shanghai or Azerbaijan, and who must compete with Americans who graduated 40 years ago but who failed to accumulate enough savings to allow them to retire at age 62-65 !
    You're not 'looking under rocks', you're making stuff up. You don't have even the slightest idea of how much H1B workers earn. You just pulled $30,000 out of thin air. Here's a page with some listings of H1B sponsors for Mechanical Engineers:

    http://www.myvisajobs.com/Mechanical-Engineer-11JT.htm

    You're also making up the part about competing with Americans who graduated 40 years ago. I just read an article that employers are having problems finding enough workers with computer and math skills to replace retiring baby boomers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    And Eric Stoner is absolutely correct that, even for new graduates who are lucky enough to actually be hired, pay rates have been stagnant for years ( actually, entry level pay rates have declined in many professions ) while the cost of college tuition has continued to increase ( in some cases dramatically ). This effectively increases their 'student loan debt' burden ... to the point where it may involve annual payments of $5k-$10-even more that must be repaid with 'after tax' earnings over the course of the next 10-20 years !!! If student loan debt repayment requires a differential of more than $7k-$14k a year in 'pre tax' earnings, it is indeed likely that many new college grads will NOT be able to earn this much differential over the $25k or whatever typical earnings potential of a new high school grad. And if that is the case, the new college grads will actually be worse off financially than the high school grads ... without even counting the fact that the high school grads will have earned four years worth of additional paychecks while the college grads were studying !
    Again, you're just making things up. You don't know how much someone with a high school degree can expect to make and you don't know how much someone with a college degree can expect to make. Please provide some specific figures, along with links and reference, showing data to support your assertions.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    ^^^ again you're attempting to provide more 'rocks' in hopes that they aren't 'turned over'. Your link for mechanical engineers doesn't mention whether the salaries published are for a Bachelor's degree or a Master's degree or a Doctorate degree. Also, the supposed average salary numbers published by a website whose main purpose is to collect placement fees from employers for finding them H1B workers and seeking gov't visa approvals strike me as being 'less than objective'. It also doesn't state other minor details such as the location of the work, the job responsibilities beyond a 40 hour week, etc. For that reason, I tend to give more credibility to actual comparison studies based on gov't statistics ...

    (snip)"Miano had some difficulty matching OES job codes with LCA job titles, which employers typically create. Where both the OES and the LCA listed a job as "programmer/analyst," Miano took the conservative approach of assuming that the LCA was describing a programmer, a job title that typically earns a lower wage than a systems analyst.

    Nonetheless, Miano's report shows that wages paid to H-1B workers in computer programming occupations had a mean salary of $52,312, while the OES mean was $67,700; a difference of $15,388. The report also lists the OES median salary as $65,003, or $12,691 higher than the H-1B median.

    When you look at computer job titles by state, California has one of the biggest differentials between OES salaries and H-1B salaries. The average salary for a programmer in California is $73,960, according to the OES. The average salary paid to an H-1B visa worker for the same job is $53,387; a difference of $20,573."(snip)

    ... or the simple common sense deduction that US employers would have no reason to pursue H1B workers, and websites like the one you posted would have no reason for existing, if there weren't a significant financial incentive for US employers to hire am H1B foreign worker at a significantly lower salary level compared to a US worker with equal degree.


    Circling back to the central point, you and I can 'argue' over details forever but it will not change the basic equation for someone considering the investment of 4 years of time and tens of thousands of dollars toward obtaining a college degree versus the ( currently unknown ) entry level job market that will exist when they graduate. Obviously the lower the tuition cost the better the results of the equation ... PROVIDING that the 'low cost' degree they obtain actually commands the respect of future employers.

    Also granted that there is strengthening demand for 'professionals' with highly technical specialties. This is indeed the consequence of US industries 'automating' away the need for as many unskilled and semi-skilled employees ( and thus avoiding the associated high mandated employee benefit costs ) as they were able, thus finding themselves in dire need of technical personnel to maintain their now off warrantee new automated equipment. However, according to many vacationing businessmen down here way south of the border, the highly technical 'professionals' they need must be able to present more than just a degree. In many cases, they need to exhibit 'troubleshooting' skills ( something that college doesn't teach ), they need to be willing to take night and weekend call-ins, they need to be willing to work under hot/cold, dirty, and sometimes dangerous conditions, they need to be willing to travel etc. ... all in exchange for an after-tax paycheck that is typically less than double that of a high school graduate working an unskilled job with regular hours, few responsibilities, desireable working conditions etc.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-08-2011 at 06:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ again you're attempting to provide more 'rocks' in hopes that they aren't 'turned over'. Your link for mechanical engineers doesn't mention whether the salaries published are for a Bachelor's degree or a Master's degree or a Doctorate degree. Also, the supposed average salary numbers published by a website whose main purpose is to collect placement fees from employers for finding them H1B workers and seeking gov't visa approvals strike me as being 'less than objective'. It also doesn't state other minor details such as the location of the work, the job responsibilities beyond a 40 hour week, etc. For that reason, I tend to give more credibility to actual comparison studies based on gov't statistics ...

    (snip)"Miano had some difficulty matching OES job codes with LCA job titles, which employers typically create. Where both the OES and the LCA listed a job as "programmer/analyst," Miano took the conservative approach of assuming that the LCA was describing a programmer, a job title that typically earns a lower wage than a systems analyst.

    Nonetheless, Miano's report shows that wages paid to H-1B workers in computer programming occupations had a mean salary of $52,312, while the OES mean was $67,700; a difference of $15,388. The report also lists the OES median salary as $65,003, or $12,691 higher than the H-1B median.

    When you look at computer job titles by state, California has one of the biggest differentials between OES salaries and H-1B salaries. The average salary for a programmer in California is $73,960, according to the OES. The average salary paid to an H-1B visa worker for the same job is $53,387; a difference of $20,573."(snip)
    There is a very big difference between the $30,000 you posted earlier and the $52,000 you quoted above.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    According to the article below, the average student debt of college graduates is $22,900, which is not a very heavy burden. Not much different than buying a new car.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/college-edu...t-indebted-wsj

    Also, from the above article:

    "As of 2009, the annual pre-tax income of households headed by people with at least a college degree exceeded that of less-educated households by 101%, up from 91% in 2006. As of April, the unemployment rate among college graduates stood at 4.5%, compared to 9.7% for those with only a high-school diploma and 14.6% for those who never finished high school."

    Based on these figures, a college degree would be well worth it for most people.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    ^^^ again the same structural 'flaw' in that you're attempting to equate past history of 40 years worth of college graduates to the present situation for new graduates. That's the equivalent of claiming that over a 40 year averaging period real estate is still a good investment, whereas over the past handful of years real estate has been a terrible investment.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    You are making a faulty analogy. There is no relationship between how good of an investment real estate is and how good of an investment a college education is. One has nothing to do with the other. You have yet to provide a single statistic showing on average, a college education is not a good investment.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    According to the article below, the average student debt of college graduates is $22,900, which is not a very heavy burden. Not much different than buying a new car.
    23k may not be a heavy burden if you have a job, but if you don't find one before the grace period expires it could be crushing.

    My feeling is that high school students are being pushed too much into universities over technical / community colleges or other vocational programs. You don't need a bachelors degree for many good jobs in the "real" economy. Unfortunately it's very difficult to see that when you're a freshly minted high school graduate with no clue on your career path. Parents are also often complicit in poor guidance, wanting the very best for their children without taking a hard look at reality.

    Having said that though a college degree is something that can never be taken away from you, regardless of actual use or merit.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krill_ View Post
    My feeling is that high school students are being pushed too much into universities over technical / community colleges or other vocational programs. You don't need a bachelors degree for many good jobs in the "real" economy. Unfortunately it's very difficult to see that when you're a freshly minted high school graduate with no clue on your career path. Parents are also often complicit in poor guidance, wanting the very best for their children without taking a hard look at reality.
    I totally agree with this too. A college education is most valuable when the student treats it as an investment in their future career goals. If they instead treat it as a 4-year vacation from life, they will have wasted a great deal of time and money and be saddled with a foolish debt.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krill_ View Post
    23k may not be a heavy burden if you have a job, but if you don't find one before the grace period expires it could be crushing.

    My feeling is that high school students are being pushed too much into universities over technical / community colleges or other vocational programs. You don't need a bachelors degree for many good jobs in the "real" economy. Unfortunately it's very difficult to see that when you're a freshly minted high school graduate with no clue on your career path. Parents are also often complicit in poor guidance, wanting the very best for their children without taking a hard look at reality.

    Having said that though a college degree is something that can never be taken away from you, regardless of actual use or merit.

    I wouldnt put community colleges in the same category as technical or vocational schools. Many of the people that I know who have gone to technical schools and say for ex. become a medical assistant-- end up in debt bc there is less financial aid available. Also these degrees from the technical schools do not contain transferable credit classes. At a community college it is possible to get financial aid. Also if u stick with a transferable degree like the one I am about to finish all of my classes will transfer over to a four year university. They have a 2+ 2 plan here in my state which is basically an agreement between community colleges and four year universities. However, if I decide to go to a four year university from everything I have heard so far it is alot harder to get financial aid. Thats where I would most likely end up in debt. So I will have to decide whether that debt is worth it to me or not. I do not plan on taking on a monthly payment equal to a car payment. I cant afford that in this economy. That would not be a wise move on my part. Bc like others have said --what if u cant find a job right away? Some people dont have the time to spare to allow for the time it takes to job hunt and land a job.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    We hate to say "I told you so " BUT :

    From today's N.Y. Times, employment rates for new college grads are DOWN. 90 % of 2006 and 2007 college grads are employed. For 2010 grads it's 56%. For 2009 grads, 22.4% are not working and another 22% have a job that does not require a college degree.

    For 2006 through 2008 grads their median starting salary was $30,000. For 2009 and 2010 grads it fell to $27,000.

    And the median student loan debt for 2006 to 2010 grads is $20,000.

    The Times based its findings on U.S. Labor Dept. data and the work of Andrew Sum at Northeastern University.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    College is a good investment if you treat it as an investment. That is, determine that the education is necessary for your desired field of work and that the costs are balanced to the benefits. If instead the student is treating it as a 4-year vacation so they can figure out what they want in life, then it's not worth it. Many fields of work require a college degree. However, that doesn't mean it's okay to spend without limit getting that degree.

    For example, you may love art and decide to get a degree in Art History because you want to work in a museum or a gallery. It's great to have that degree, but those fields often don't pay very well. Therefore, you should pick a school with reasonably priced tuition so that the education can be paid for with a minimum amount of loans. Do not get the degree from Harvard and go $80k in debt thinking that the big name will lead to a big salary.

    Many of the negative posters here seem to be implying that a college degree is worthless. That is clearly not the case. A college degree is valuable in and of itself. The question is how much is that degree worth. It is possible to get a degree with little or no debt. That generally requires picking a school with a reasonable tuition and working while going to school. There are many options between no degree and getting a degree with $80k in loans.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    From today's N.Y. Times, employment rates for new college grads are DOWN. 90 % of 2006 and 2007 college grads are employed. For 2010 grads it's 56%. For 2009 grads, 22.4% are not working and another 22% have a job that does not require a college degree.
    Continuing on my last post in this thread, there is a growing disconnect between the jobs that are available and the jobs people are training for. Seemingly everyone wants to get an MBA while there are jobs aplenty in technical fields and health care.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    ^^^ yes there jobs aplenty in the technical fields and health care. However, what isn't stated are the 'expectations' now connected with many of those technical job offers in relation to the offered pay rate. Yes any engineer can probably find a job tomorrow ... but that job most likely will involve 24/7 availability for call-ins to deal with problems, most likely will involve frequent business travel etc. And yes a 2 year degree nurse can probably find a job tomorrow ... but that job most likely will involve working the 'graveyard shift', weekends and holidays, plus changing bed pans now that hospitals have fired nurses' aides in order to control their labor costs. Both professions involve some element of personal risk ... from dangerous machinery to AIDS tainted blood samples / MERSA exposure. And both professions also involve actual ( sometimes personal ) accountability for 'mistakes' made on the job i.e. civil lawsuits / revoking of license ( equals premature end of career ) etc.

    On the other hand, a business major probably will wind up working 9 to 5 in a safe, clean office. A business major probably doesn't face any accountability for mistakes made other than a reprimand from a superior, and certainly doesn't face any personal accountability unless the magnitude of the mistake reaches Bernie Madoff levels. It's no wonder that business degrees are more 'popular' than technical degrees.


    Many of the negative posters here seem to be implying that a college degree is worthless. That is clearly not the case. A college degree is valuable in and of itself. The question is how much is that degree worth. It is possible to get a degree with little or no debt. That generally requires picking a school with a reasonable tuition and working while going to school. There are many options between no degree and getting a degree with $80k in loans.
    Very true ! But don't forget to count the 'lost opportunity' cost associated with attending college full time ... which for a 'serious professional dancer' can amount to six figures easily over the course of a 4 year college program. This may not be student debt per se, but it is very real 'lost money' nonetheless. While other posters continue to ignore this point, if a full accounting includes the college graduate having to 'make up for' the 'lost opportunity' cost incurred by NOT working full time for 4 years as a 'serious professional dancer', via a positive differential in after-graduation income ( after taxes ) versus the money that could have been earned by working instead of studying but wasn't, you may be talking about 20 years being required to actually 'break even'.


    We hate to say "I told you so " BUT :

    From today's N.Y. Times, employment rates for new college grads are DOWN. 90 % of 2006 and 2007 college grads are employed. For 2010 grads it's 56%. For 2009 grads, 22.4% are not working and another 22% have a job that does not require a college degree.

    For 2006 through 2008 grads their median starting salary was $30,000. For 2009 and 2010 grads it fell to $27,000.

    And the median student loan debt for 2006 to 2010 grads is $20,000.
    Are you sure that the NY Times didn't 'make this stuff up' ? LOL

    Actually, this clearly proves my point about attempting to analyze HISTORIC data ... which covers many years or decades of results under sometimes vastly different conditions ... to project future trends. Hopefully the relevance of my comments about a declining housing market and a declining market for new college graduates now becomes a bit clearer.

    If one wants to speculate, both future housing prices and the 'value' of future college degrees require an assessment of the future of the economy. The 'gold foil hat' crowd will tell you that, in both cases, even if the economy does return to generating 'real' future growth, there will still be an 'overhang' of unoccupied houses and unemployed prior college graduates that needs to be absorbed before newly constructed houses and new college graduates can experience a strong 'demand' - thus increased sales and hiring, at higher prices and higher pay rates.

    For the moment at least, US hiring rates are STILL below the level at which the creation of new jobs 'breaks even' with population growth ... which in this context means that there will clearly not be enough new jobs created to accomodate the new college graduates throwing their hats in the air later this month and entering the US work force next month. And as posted earlier, this does NOT address the fact that there is already an 'overhang' of millions of unemployed / underemployed previous college graduates who will be competing with new college graduates for every new job opportunity.
    !
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-20-2011 at 02:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    I just read an article that said that 90% of millionaires have college degrees.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    I just read an article that said that 90% of millionaires have college degrees.
    Proving what ? Who said that education does not GENERALLY translate to higher earnings ? But it doesn't have to be a classical liberal arts degree.

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