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Thread: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    I live in one of the most heavily concentrated military towns in the world and with all my experiences I would not join the military. I may marry someone in the military bc the spouse can get money for college but I dont want to rely on that.

    Melonie---I know u meant no harm, but soon I will be one of the myriad of community college graduates shortly and as u have described us cc graduates are not in as much demand as an Ivy League graduate. That just reminds me of how hard its going to be to transition out of my dancing career and my age is going to force me out shortly...Its scary..

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    I know u meant no harm, but soon I will be one of the myriad of community college graduates shortly and as u have described us cc graduates are not in as much demand as an Ivy League graduate.
    Yes I know ... and I meant nothing derogatory either. I was simply trying to point out that for a variety of reasons - from non-academic scholarship policies, to 'tweaking' of academic standards to avoid embarrassing minority dropout rates, to the 'politicalization' of hiring practices re professors - community colleges have allowed their academic standards to decline to the point where potential employers cannot trust in the fact that a community college graduate has the basic skills necessary to perform the required work 'right out of the gate'.

    While there are undoubtedly many present and future community college graduates whose personal abilities are outstanding, potential employers are far less likely to 'gamble' on hiring a community college graduate when a different candidate with stronger educational credentials and/or real world work experience is available at the same 'price'. Thus as long as there continues to be 5+ qualified applicants for every professional job opening, community college graduates with zero directly applicable real world work experience are going to remain at the 'bottom' of the employer's resume' pile !

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    l as there continues to be 5+ qualified applicants for every professional job opening, community college graduates with zero directly applicable real world work experience are going to remain at the 'bottom' of the employer's resume' pile !

    Yep, thats going to be me at the bottom of the pile having a hard time getting a job. Im not really excited about graduating even though I should be. I am going to have to restore some kind of hope otherwise my realistic yet negative viewpoint isnt going to land me any future job. I will have to work hard to sell myself in the interview thats for sure,

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    The answer to the question that started this thread is yes...but most especially if the degree earned is an area in which the degree-holder can earn good money, and if earned in an economical fashion.

    High earning degrees-accounting, engineering, computer science, quantitative business/info sciences, chemistry, and certain scientific degrees (geology, for example).

    Decent earning degrees-finance, nursing, math, HR, some other science degrees, sometimes education, some various other business degrees

    But even the least specifically applicable degrees will get you in the door for some jobs. A bachelor's degree used to be a ticket to a high income....but even today, it tells an employer that you had the mental wherewithal to make it through 4 years of college...and if they want someone with a few watts of brainpower, they'll likely get it.

    Now, does this mean that you should incur $200k in debt to secure a BA in Philosophy? No, that's a fool's path. But that is not necessary. Choose a degree path that has SOME sort of earning power, and if you don't have a lot of money, find ways to make it happen. Community colleges are generally every inexpensive. That's two years of a degree already earned there.

    The rest can be done without borrowing enough to buy a starter house, but only if you put your mind to it and sacrifice.

    So yes, a college degree is still a great investment in yourself, if done the right way.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    A bachelor's degree used to be a ticket to a high income....but even today, it tells an employer that you had the mental wherewithal to make it through 4 years of college...and if they want someone with a few watts of brainpower, they'll likely get it.
    This is undoubtedly true ... and will remain true in the future. But there is also a flip side.

    Even today, some employers are reluctant to hire 4 year degree graduates for jobs that don't actually require such a high qualification level even if that 4 year graduate is willing to accept the lesser job and lesser paycheck. The reluctance stems from the high probability that, after hiring, the 4 year graduate will continue to look for a better job for which their degree qualifies them ... meaning that the employer will be investing X amount of time and money into job training / learning curve lost productivity when the 4 year degree holder is hired, and then reinvesting X amount of time and money to train a replacement employee when the 4 year degree holder finds a better job and gives notice 6 months or a year down the road.

    I would also reiterate that obtaining a 4 year + degree also involves a significant amount of 'lost opportunity cost' i.e. thousands of hours spent studying instead of working and earning money at a 'lesser' occupation. Even if the out of pocket tuition costs and student debt to obtain a 4 year + degree can be reasonably kept under control, ultimately there is an additional $100k or whatever 'lost opportunity cost' to be paid i.e. money that could have been earned working at a 'lesser' occupation instead of studying but wasn't. This is of particular importance to exotic dancers, because their 'lesser' occupation may represent $200k or $300k in 'lost opportunity cost' had they worked as full time dancers instead of working 1-2 shifts a week as students over the 4+ years spent attending college.

    In the most simplistic terms, this means that between tuition costs and 'lost opportunity' costs, an ex exotic dancer 4 year college graduate would need to net an additional $10k a year in after tax income every year for her 40 year working age career in order to 'break even'. In less simplistic terms, if an exotid dancer had managed to invest $100k of the $200-$300k in additional full time dancing earnings in, say, a 5% tax free muni bond, then the interest earnings from that muni bond would move the 'break even' point up to an additional $15k per year in after tax income ( which may also equal an extra $25k per year in PRE tax income ). Arguably, at that point, the total 'costs' associated with an exotic dancer passing up full time dancing in order to obtain a 4 year degree may NEVER result in her reaching a 'break even' point !!!


    High earning degrees-accounting, engineering, computer science, quantitative business/info sciences, chemistry, and certain scientific degrees (geology, for example).

    Decent earning degrees-finance, nursing, math, HR, some other science degrees, sometimes education, some various other business degrees
    ^^^ again, these earnings levels are based on degrees earned a number of years in the past ... as well as job offers made and accepted in the past. This isn't to say that the earnings levels aren't there for current workers holding such degrees. However, it does NOT speak to the number of future US job openings or future earnings levels that will be available to new graduates 4 years down the road.

    This is a particularly worrysome point given that a 'second wave' of 'professional' outsourcing is getting underway involving engineering, computer science, law, accounting etc. The business model for 'professional' outsourcing seems to be retaining a high profile 'front office' in the USA for US customer interface ( i.e. a relative handful of Ivy League graduates ), but with 'back office' research, design, prototyping, number crunching etc. being outsourced to foreign workers with 4 year, masters, or PhD credentials in India or China ( who are more than happy to work for $25k-$35k-$50k a year i.e. 1/3rd the 'cost' of US graduates ). A recent example would be California's Golden Gate bridge improvements ... where a probable 3/4ths of the actual nitty gritty engineering work is actually being performed in China.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 06-27-2011 at 09:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kthnx View Post
    know what else has skyrocketed?...a stripper's HOUSE FEES and the money that is siphoned from stripper's earnings as well as costs for professional stripper gear and stripper heels
    Not all club fees and cuts are high, I've worked at some recently that had low bases and took $0 from dances. I've actually never worked at a strip club that had ridiculous fees and/or cuts. Also, is stripper gear really all that expensive? I have never spent more than $50 on shoes and each pair lasted me for months. Unless you're getting super fancy and/or tons clothing(which is pretty damn unnecessary to me) it should be pretty inexpensive.

    I see so many strippers(to be fair I see it in a lot of professions) that put so much of what they make back into stripping; hundreds of dollars worth of prestige cosmetics, tons of expensive(overpriced IMO) outfits, 8 pairs of heels.... I have never found 'being a stripper' to be all that expensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by kthnx View Post
    that the amount invested in a stripping career -- for licenses, stripper gear, pole dancing classes, etc --
    I've only worked in two areas that required licenses, and although maintaining one of those licenses is pretty costly it's still say the price of one shift's earnings. Pole dance lessons are nowhere near necessary and like I mentioned before, stripper gear does not have to be anywhere near costly.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    This doesn't really "add" anything to the discussion that is note worthy, but rather humorous.

    I went the the Renaissance Festival this weekend & overheard one some guy trying to hit on one of the food server employees. He was telling her that she was too pretty & too smart to be working there... sound familiar? LOL Then he wanted to know what she made. Her response was:

    "I make $8/hr here, & the only reason I'm here is because after graduated with a bachelors degree in [time period I didn't catch] history, this was apparently the only job I was qualified for in the 2 years since my graduation."

    I have to tell you, she made me laugh, but at the same time I felt sick to my stomach thinking of how much she probably paid for that degree & knowing that her new $8/hr job was only temporary. Ugh...
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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    ^ By itself, a BA degree in a field like history, English, philosophy, literature, etc. is just a generic college degree. Those degrees are stepping stones to other degrees like Masters, PhD or teaching. Very few jobs are going to have a requirement for a BS in history. That doesn't mean it's worthless, but it does mean you shouldn't pay an outrageous price for a history BA.

    This from a recent Bureau of Labor and Statistics report showing the unemployment percentages relative to the level of education:

    Less than high school diploma: 14.7%
    High school grad: 9.5%
    Some college or AA degree: 8.0%
    Bachelor's or higher degree: 4.5%

    You can see that the more educated person is more likely to be employed. A HS grad will likely be unemployed more and longer than someone with a college degree.
    Last edited by NickT; 06-28-2011 at 11:47 AM.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    "Circling back to the point of the original article and some basic facts about the exotic dancing industry, this boils down to ...

    - the 'death' of the old paradigm that a college degree will guarantee a good job / financial success

    - student loan debt is 'forever' ... and can act as an 'albatross' around a college graduate's neck for decades

    - a college degree can be earned at age 22 or 32 or 42 or for that matter 52, while the 'peak earnings potential' of exotic dancers is much more restricted age and energy wise.

    - effort diverted away from high earning work opportunities toward non-paying college study carries a significant 'lost opportunity cost' ... however, this 'lost opportunity cost' is often ignored. Or put another way, the $60k tuition cost of obtaining a bachelor's degree from a state college is actually in addition to perhaps $100k+ in 'lost opportunity cost' re additional money that could have been earned via serious full time dancing during the same time period but wasn't.

    Again I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from attending college. However, I AM trying to point out that in today's poor economy a thorough cost / benefit analysis should be conducted - which includes both out of pocket costs plus 'lost opportunity cost'."
    I know I certainly wouldn't have been dancing or currently escorting if a college degree guaranteed finding a good job. I'm still paying off my debts from a 40k per yr school. I've pared it down, but it took a really long time to get there. There are days when I think, "why the hell did I go to college?" In new york, you need a degree to work a crappy 20k per year job...only to be laid off later. People in my age group (25-35 y/o) were given a crappy deal. A year after I graduated from high school, the economy took a big hit thanks to 9/11. Its been downhill since.
    This thread is depressing me, lol.

    I think it boils down to what you actually do with your money as opposed to how you acquired it. Unfortunately, most sex work has a expiration date.
    Last edited by Melonie; 06-28-2011 at 02:26 PM.
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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    unemployment percentages relative to the level of education:

    Less than high school diploma: 14.7%
    High school grad: 9.5%
    Some college or AA degree: 8.0%
    Bachelor's or higher degree: 4.5%
    In new york, you need a degree to work a crappy 20k per year job...only to be laid off later.
    In yet one more example of 'official' unemployment statistics not reflecting reality, it should be pointed out that recent college graduates who were not able to find a job in their chosen field, and who elected NOT to accept a $20k a year job as an inferior substitute, are NOT counted as being officially unemployed !!!

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    My current opinion: The student loan debt is not worth it. I am in no debt currently I will finish my last few classes and no continuation for bachelors at this point. Maybe n the future but not anytime soon. Student loan debt hell isnt worth it.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    I have to take exception though with your concept that exotic dancing involves any significant amount of investment. With a college degree, the student must invest tens of thousands of dollars and years worth of full time effort before they are able to 'cash in' in their investment after graduation. Exotic dancers can 'cash in' the very next night after they get their dancer's license and buy a couple of stripper outfits. Also there is no 'lost opportunity cost' ( i.e. college students being forced to either work and earn money or study and not earn money ) for exotic dancers.
    True to an extent. A guy I used to be good friends with told me bout his friend (I met her once or twice) who was a stripper for a lil while. He kept saying how he always told her he felt stripping was keeping her in "arrested development" and that she should invest less time taking on shifts for the club and more looking for a strait job utilizing her degree on the side of stripping. The. Again this girl already had a lucrative degree (math & science) and a rather unlucrative stripclub job consisting of an on-the-business-decline dive bar where she didn't make as much as what most strippers on here would consider "good money". So for her the stripping didn't pay any more than a "vanilla" waitressing or bartending gig would, yet it had a stigma that prevented her from being able to really use it on resumes for strait jobs (thus making it falsely appear that she had an employment gap). And also, as many of us know the longer it's been since graduation, the harder it gets to secure a job in that field (employers don't exactly <3 employment gaps). This girl was ok with stripping since it meant a way to pay bills for her tiny ghetto apartment but was never really big on it or the stripper "lifestyle". So in some instances stripping CAN mean time taken away from finding a job that one might find to be more interesting and/or financially lucrative.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    ^^^ that anecdote is a real world example of the 'flip side' I spoke of earlier ... where receiving a degree ( in math & science, in this case ) can actually serve as an obstacle to obtaining a 'straight' job in an unrelated field. I would also point out that this particular dancer was clearly not treating exotic dancing as a 'serious professional' career if she was content to stay working at a low earnings potential 'dive bar'.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Possibly but she was also in a city that wasnt very lucrative for dancing and she didn't have the type of look that could get her into a better club. I don't think she was necessarily content with it, esp knowing that even most students were making more at there little-above min wage work study jobs than she made half the time on day shift, I think she just had bad self esteem and thought this was the best she could do. True she had trouble finding a job with her degree at first, thus turning to dancing, but my friends argument was that if she waitressed shed likely make the same or better money and atleast she wouldn't have a big gaping hole in her employment sinse college (becuz let's be realistic, admiting to a professional strait job that u danced for a yr after college isn't going to help get u the job, sinse dancing holds an unfortunate stigma)...which would make it easier to find a strait job. Eventually she did just that and did end up finding a collegiate strait job that paid a lil more than dancing but had benefits included like group health ins.

    Bottom line, stripping isn't for everyone. Some people just arent cut out to be good strippers, lookswize, hustle/sales skillswise, etc. For them stripping full time 'round the clock to try and salvage some money for bills (as djoser described the ugliest girls at his club doing, they work dayshift and if they don't make any money they stay the whole 14hrs the club is open, into the late nite) holds them back from Persuing jobs that would be better for them.

    Not everyone's best life plan consists of bein a stripper, just like not everyone's best life plan is to go to college. In general I feel that if ur not tip top enough to gt into an in demand ivy league school, or get a nearly full scholarship from a "regular"'college, then ur gonna end up taking on tons of school debt just to end up bein a little fish in a big pond when u graduate. So I agree with what u said about ivy leaguers and people who have more to offer than just a degree having a definit edge. But bottom line, not everyone is decent stripper material and not everyone is tip top scholar material either

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    In general I feel that if ur not tip top enough to gt into an in demand ivy league school, or get a nearly full scholarship from a "regular"'college, then ur gonna end up taking on tons of school debt just to end up bein a little fish in a big pond when u graduate. So I agree with what u said about ivy leaguers and people who have more to offer than just a degree having a definit edge. But bottom line, not everyone is decent stripper material and not everyone is tip top scholar material either
    We're in complete agreement on both issues !!!

    The sad future possibility is unfortunately this ...

    Through the earlier 00's the ( debt driven ) US economy was strong enough to allow both exotic dancers with 'less than outstanding' attributes, and college graduates with 'less than outstanding' credentials, to participate reasonably well. However, going forward, both will face stiff headwinds as the remaining US market demand expects more and more 'bang for the buck' from the 'less than outstanding' market supply. In both cases they are likely to face stiff 'foreign' competition ... whether that 'foreign' competition takes the form of stereotypical eastern european dancers offering 'extras' to US club customers at comparatively low prices, or US 'straight' professional jobs being outsourced to Asia or taken by low priced H1B foreign 'immigrant' professional workers.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Hehe that's a good comparison.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    ^^^ 'good' isn't exactly the word for this unfortunate situation, but it is 'accurate'.

    However, the comparison does NOT apply to a different aspect of exotic dancing versus obtaining a college degree. As you are well aware, the amount of time and money 'investment' required to prepare for a lucrative career in exotic dancing ... even if it includes breast implants and a workout regimen ... is still on the order of a few months and less than $10k in cost. In comparison, the amount of time and money 'investment' required to obtain a college degree is on the order of 2-4 years and tens of thousands of dollars ( sometimes into 6 figures ) in tuition cost. Thus going for a college degree constitutes a far larger 'gamble' and a far greater 'loss' if the eventual result doesn't turn out anywhere near as well as first envisioned !!!

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Interesting discussion on Reddit today that's pertinent to this thread.

    http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/co...y_discourages/

    Reddit, do you feel that society discourages "education for the sake of education" and is instead too focused on education for the sole purpose of getting a job?

    (top comment)

    I think it's the opposite.

    Too many people are forceably indoctrinated using a one-fits-all approach.

    Being educated is a great thing, however, too many people are being told that they have to receive a certain kind of education over the one that is best for them.

    Is it better if someone learns how to frame a house when they can use it to make money? Or spend a semester learning Native American history?

    Sorry, little Bobby isn't going to be a Geneticist. He's got the skills to be an electrician or carpenter though.

    "HELL NO, little bobby is going to college! He's going to be a genius. He must go to college or he's going to be unsuccessful in life!"

    So Bobby goes into debt learning how to be a Geneticist, but decides that it's not going to happen. Now he's got a pile of debt and no direction.

    I think we as a people need to start putting A LOT more time, money, and effort into developing really good vocational schools. Not just the places where "the dumb kids go" in the afternoons, as it went in my high school.

    The funny thing is, some of these "dumb kids" became welders, contractors, and mechanics that are making a lot more than some of their college bound counterparts that spent a great deal of money on a degree that sits on the shelf while they're waiting tables or whatever.

    We need to stop pushing the thought that everyone needs to go to college, or the thought that everyone deserves to go to college.

    Edit: I think every child deserves the change to go to college. Some just will never make it. They need a viable alternative than the ones we have now.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?


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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    I have a slightly different spin to the above article Zinaida posted...

    I had a $33k debt after my first degree (education must be much cheaper in Canada)
    My degree was in Sports and Recreation Management (4 years)
    My starting salary after grad was $45k, in 2 years Id had 2 promotions and was on $72K + 9% for my retirement at age 23 or 24 (cant quite remember). Id paid down $10k of my loan by then.

    Now Im in 2nd year of my Vet degree which is 5 years. I have not borrowed any money at all thanks to stripping. Although I have not been able to pay my old loan down further so Ill continue paying interest on it which since its in Canada I think its like 2% or something crazy cheap like that. If I stay in Australia Ill probably be on a shitty salary as a first year vet, but I plan to own my own practice within 10 years which will put me in $200k+ range. If I move back to canada I would be able to earn a much higher salary as a veterinarian employed by someone else, but would still open my practice down the track or specialise. Considering I wont be increasing my debts thanks to stripping... I still consider education a good investment in my experience.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    ^ oh and the thing I wanted to add to that... My car cost me $45K... it will probably last me 10 years if Im lucky... my degrees will add up to 80k... but Ill have them forever and nothing can take them away.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    ^^^ congrats, and glad to hear that things are working out very well for you !!! However, you must admit that your situation is somewhat 'unique' compared to other people now facing the decision to obtain a college degree, because ...

    - you already obtained a 4 year degree several years ago, and were able to begin 'cashing in' on it at a time when the economy / employment picture was better than it is today

    - your student loan balance does not include the total costs of your education ( thanks to stripping income being used to offset some portion of college costs ) PLUS your student loan interest rate is FAR below market ( i.e. 2% versus 7% )

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    I think a college education, whether at a cc or a 4 yr university, can be a fabulous investment IF you're smart about it (and if it's even relevant for your life goals and career path).

    When I got accepted to my applied colleges I went with our state university because it was affordable but had TONS of interesting programs. I graduated without debt thanks to stripping, but if I hadn't danced I would have had about $40,000 of debt assuming I got no financial aid. In reality I applied for FA for my last year and it covered 8000 of my tuition that year, so the figure would be closer to 32000.

    I'm now planning on going back to school for biology (or at least starting off in bio and branching off to something more specific) next fall. I'm going to go to a community college for the first two years, and finish out a BS at my alma mater university for another 3-4 semesters. The total cost will be 24,000-30,000 including books, again assuming that I get no financial aid.

    Going to a cc for the first couple years of a degree is a really great idea if that's available in your area of study. The four semesters at the cc will cost me less than 8000. Four semesters at the university would cost me 22000. That's $14,000 I won't have to save up for tuition, or $14,000 I won't have to get a loan for (and pay off with interest).

    Everyone's circumstances are different, and this economy has completely fucked a lot of college students. However, if you are smart about how you finance your education you can get a degree for a lot less money than a lot of people seem to think. That ivy league school isn't going to matter a whit if you aren't going to get a job from it that pays enough to justify the loans. If you're in a discipline which is likely to be dependent on networking, prestige and name-dropping, it's probably worth it. If you're in a discipline in which your grades, internship, and experience will matter more, don't worry about the name brand.

    I'm choosing to finish my BS at the U rather than the cheaper Metro State because the U is a really great research university (in the sciences and otherwise) and thus will be more helpful for finding internships and jobs after graduation. Thus my decision to spend an extra 14grand or so for my last two years of school I could also finish my BS at one of the private universities for 30-40 grand a year, but that doesn't make sense to me based on my cost-benefit analysis for my situation.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    The four semesters at the cc will cost me less than 8000. Four semesters at the university would cost me 22000. That's $14,000 I won't have to save up for tuition, or $14,000 I won't have to get a loan for
    This is absolutely true. However, it is ONLY true if you follow through in getting the 4 year degree from a well accredited and well accepted University. As posted earlier, a 2 year Community College degree, in and of itself, isn't worth much these days.


    I'm going to go to a community college for the first two years, and finish out a BS at my alma mater university for another 3-4 semesters. The total cost will be 24,000-30,000 including books
    That's also true on the face of it. But the actual 'cost' is far higher. For example, I assume that you are going to continue dancing perhaps 2 nights a week for those four years and in the process earning perhaps $200 a night * 2 nights * 200 weeks ( 4 years ) = $ 80,000 . If you weren't pursuing another college degree, and instead devoted your efforts as a 'serious professional dancer', over the same 4 year period dancing 5 nights a week you could have earned $200 a night * 5 nights * 200 weeks = $ 200,000 !!! So pursuing another 4 year degree also involves some $120,000 in 'lost opportunity cost' in addition to the $30,000 in direct tuition cost.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    This is absolutely true. However, it is ONLY true if you follow through in getting the 4 year degree from a well accredited and well accepted University. As posted earlier, a 2 year Community College degree, in and of itself, isn't worth much these days.
    Yes. My point is about getting a four year degree (and actually completing it), rather than bringing up cc AA's as a comparable alternative to a BA/BS.

    That's also true on the face of it. But the actual 'cost' is far higher. For example, I assume that you are going to continue dancing perhaps 2 nights a week for those four years and in the process earning perhaps $200 a night * 2 nights * 200 weeks ( 4 years ) = $ 80,000 . If you weren't pursuing another college degree, and instead devoted your efforts as a 'serious professional dancer', over the same 4 year period dancing 5 nights a week you could have earned $200 a night * 5 nights * 200 weeks = $ 200,000 !!! So pursuing another 4 year degree also involves some $120,000 in 'lost opportunity cost' in addition to the $30,000 in direct tuition cost.
    That's assuming that I WANT to dance 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year. I understand that you come from the "make the most of it financially" camp, but I come from the "make the most of it financially and emotionally" camp. For me, working 6-12 days a month nets me 3-10grand, and because my overhead is pretty low and my savings goals are specific, this allows me to max out my IRA, save up for the downpayment on a house, save up for medical and vet bills, etc etc. I have no desire to work full-time because much of the value I get from stripping (besides the money) is the ability to pursue other things I enjoy, like reading, time with my friends and family, traveling, crafting, etc.

    While I think your "build your nest-egg" advice is good, implying that not stripping full-time is somehow less "professional" or "wasted" value is, in my opinion, dismissing the other definitions of "value" that many of us hold. Looking at life in a strictly economic/fiscal manner means over-simplifying and misunderstanding the data (because money isn't the only value people use to "measure" different decisions). There are definitely parts of this thread in which I feel you are looking at things in a strictly fiscal way rather than taking into account the other non-fiscal values and decisions people make.

    Don't get me wrong, I think it's a waste to dance part time because that's all you need to do to live bill to bill if you don't have anything else occupying your time. Dancing is a tremendous financial opportunity to work comparatively few hours while saving money (or, in my case, saving less money than I would have if I hadn't been paying tuition, but at least not having debt). I'm a very money-focused person in that I enjoy spending it on a few small frivolities (the occasional dinner, books, etc) and saving as much as I can otherwise, but for me (and I think a lot of focused, financially savvy dancers) I'm happiest and most fulfilled when I am building a small nest-egg and enjoying plenty of time for the other things I enjoy. I don't think that attitude, nor the attitude that a small amount of debt is worth a job you're going to love (even if it doesn't pay a lot), should be dismissed just because it doesn't happen to be the one you subscribe to for your own life

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