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Thread: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    ^^^ understood ... i.e. that not working full time as a dancer is a voluntary choice that you would make in any case. However the point remains that, for other girls who may be having similar thoughts in regard to obtaining a 4 year college degree ( or ANOTHER 4 year college degree ), devoting 2 nights a week to dancing plus the balance towards studying ... versus devoting 5 nights a week to dancing ... DOES involve absorbing an additional 'lost opportunity' cost in excess of $100,000 over and above the cost of college tuition !!!

    And yes my own viewpoint is somewhat different than yours. I viewed dancing as a means to produce maximum levels of income for a 10-15 year period ... after which my plans were to have built up a large enough savings and investments nest egg to allow me to retire outright from ANY line of work ( which I more or less accomplished successfully over a period of 12 years ). I understand that your viewpoint is different i.e. using part time dancing as a means to defray college costs, with your long term goal being the pursuit of a 'straight job' career for ~30 years after you graduate ( again ). While that certainly is a laudable goal, it's a 'different' goal.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ understood ... i.e. that not working full time as a dancer is a voluntary choice that you would make in any case. However the point remains that, for other girls who may be having similar thoughts in regard to obtaining a 4 year college degree ( or ANOTHER 4 year college degree ), devoting 2 nights a week to dancing plus the balance towards studying ... versus devoting 5 nights a week to dancing ... DOES involve absorbing an additional 'lost opportunity' cost in excess of $100,000 over and above the cost of college tuition !!!

    And yes my own viewpoint is somewhat different than yours. I viewed dancing as a means to produce maximum levels of income for a 10-15 year period ... after which my plans were to have built up a large enough savings and investments nest egg to allow me to retire outright from ANY line of work ( which I more or less accomplished successfully over a period of 12 years ). I understand that your viewpoint is different i.e. using part time dancing as a means to defray college costs, with your long term goal being the pursuit of a 'straight job' career for ~30 years after you graduate ( again ). While that certainly is a laudable goal, it's a 'different' goal.
    Absolutely Your accomplishments are extremely impressive, and if I thought I wouldn't burn out I would pursue it. No matter what her future goals, a dancer should definitely maximize the opportunity dancing gives her. I went through a period of depression where I barely worked, and now I look back on that with irritation at the financial opportunities I missed out on. The earlier you start out saving lots of money, the more flexibility you have later down the line. If I hadn't been smart with my money there's no way in hell I would be able to go back to school and do so debt-free.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Your accomplishments are extremely impressive
    Actually, they really aren't !!! In truth I had the advantage of the 'dot-com' tech boom, PLUS the real estate bubble boom, to provide a level of dancing earnings potential that is simply no longer possible today. An addition the recent commodity boom, and to some extent the preceding real estate boom, provided an investment earnings potential that some have described as 'once in a lifetime' opportunities.

    Girls attempting to take the same approach today face a much lower dancer earnings potential because, by and large, the majority of strip club customers have less money to spend.

    Back on topic, it is also arguable that the same economic conditions which created these earnings opportunities for myself as a dancer ALSO created uncharacteristically favorable opportunities for past US college graduates !! Thus the 'calculations' ( or, more accurately, the crystal ball gazings ) of future opportunities for future US college graduates 4 years from now have a large number of unknown variables. Again if a personal choice is involved that one wants to work in a particular field ... and a college degree is required in order to become 'qualified' to work in said field ... then obtaining that college degree is a necessary prerequisite pure and simple and 'cost versus benefit' issues are not major concerns. But if the goal is more general, i.e. obtaining a college degree in 'hopes' of earning more money in the future than it is possible to earn today, then asking 'cost versus benefit' questions is IMHO highly appropriate. As cited in the earlier example, if the 'real' cost of obtaining a college degree involves not only $30k + in direct college tuition costs, but also the 'loss' of a potential $120k + in additional earnings via full time dancing instead of attending college while dancing part time, the resulting 'cost benefit ratio' may very well be 'negative'.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-02-2011 at 04:33 AM.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    I ran across this tidbit ... which shows that at least one in three US college graduates is now working at a job that doesn't require a college degree ...



    Of course the subject that nobody wants to discuss is the probability that, as the US labor market continues to run on 'empty', jobs that currently don't require a college degree may START to require a college degree.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    and for an even 'grimmer' picture ...

    (snip)"Student loans will keep a lid on how high housing prices will recover once the economy does settle down. It is amazing to think that currently $1 trillion in student loans still need to be paid and the amount of student debt is only growing. The question of higher education worth always comes up during recessions. Yet the one thing that pundits miss, just like they missed with the housing bubble this last time around, is that we have an enormous market of subprime college players eating up a large portion of government backed loans. Of course these toxic outlets usually grab headlines once bubbles burst but you also have students going to top quality institutions that routinely charge $50,000 a year or more. This is similar to what was seen in the housing market. No one is disputing that a home in a nice area is valuable but to go into massive debt without really thinking about the underlying value is financially disastrous. Millions of Americans are in massive debt or are preparing to go into massive debt to pursue a college degree. How will this impact future home buyers as more and more people carry debt loads that amount to a pseudo-mortgage even before buying a home?"(snip)

    (snip)"Finding a parallel to the housing market, this is the subprime market of education and there are billions of dollars that are being made. The argument goes that many of these students need these schools, loans, and grants because they come from lower income areas. Sounds like a familiar argument. Sure, it is nice to get people into homes but how many of those people kept their houses once the bubble popped? Not many. The mortgage brokers never cared about the people they suckered in aside from the commission they were going to churn. Wall Street didn’t care since they were hedged to win no matter what including siphoning off taxpayer bailouts. These for-profit schools use large amounts of their budgets to target these areas and slam students into these government backed loans and who really cares if the person even gets a job later on or even learns anything. It is appalling because there is lack of oversight and no accountability. These schools only survive because of government backing. Hey, if they want to lend their own money then go for it. I doubt they would and the results pretty much sum up the story."(snip)



    (snip)"The above chart looked at the placement data for the class of 2010. What is troubling is the large amount of students working in fields that really don’t utilize their degree. 22 percent are simply not working which is disturbing. But then you have another 22 percent that are working in jobs that really don’t require a college education. Keep in mind this is data looking at college graduates. You can imagine how dismal the data is for those without a college degree. As we now know, the prospects of earning good money in manufacturing are now becoming more limited. So an education in a specific field is necessary at least going to provide some skills beyond the basic. Fields like engineering, accounting, and healthcare seem to have solid prospects but require specialized and long-term training. No going overnight to a crash course and being able to become a mortgage broker making six-figures. Those days are done. So why would people go into debt for tens and even hundreds of thousands of dollars if the degree will not produce solid career results? It is one thing to have a basket weaving degree with no debt but another thing when you go into massive debt for it. I get the “knowledge” argument but nothing is stopping folks from going to their local library and reading the greatest books of all time (it also won’t cost you thousands of dollars).

    Let me be absolutely clear. I really do believe in people getting a college education. I also believe that owning a home is a smart thing. But there are major caveats to both of these. First, you have to measure the worth and value versus how much debt you will take on. Both of the previous decisions can be problematic if people over pay. There is a mythology around both of these sectors. I call this the “priceless” mentality. For example, some people will say, “good schools, setting roots, and having a place to call our own is priceless” so they justify ridiculous loan amounts for this belief. The same applies to a college education. Many in the public get fooled thinking that all colleges are created the same. They are not. A degree from a top 100 institution is not the same as one from the other 3,000+ colleges out there. Bubbles create massive price dislocations and we are definitely in one when it comes to higher education.(snip)

    from


    Note that the author has coined a new phrase which actually sums up the current situation very well ... "SUBPRIME COLLEGE STUDENTS" ... which essentially refers to the US gov't loaning / giving large amounts of tuition assistance money to ( typically low income ) college students to attend 'less than highly respected' colleges. Subprime students whose probability of graduation ... whose probability of landing a job that involves earning enough money to actually pay a significant amount of income taxes ( to offset the cost to taxpayers of the loan subsidies ) ... and whose probability of landing a job that actually provides enough after tax income to allow making payments on their student loan in a timely manner ... is fairly low. As the author points out, the US gov't is already 'on the hook' for $1 TRILLION dollars worth of student loans ... much of it to 'subprime college students' ... and thus faces a future replay of subprime mortgage delinquencies and defaults on student loans.

    Unfortunately for the 'subprime college students', student loan debt backed by the gov't cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. As such, many are likely to be saddled with a multi-decade college 'mortgage' payment. And the existance / priority of this student loan debt will in turn make many of these 'subprime college students' ineligible for actual mortgages / auto loans etc. on the basis on an unacceptably high debt to income ratio. In fact the situation could get downright scary if adjustable student loan interest rates wind up jumping to 8-10-12% in the future.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-03-2011 at 02:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?






    I wonder if the costs would have risen so fast if there was no govt involvement in student loans?


    Not really I don't..... And when do you suppose the austerity and hard times will come to college presidents?

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    And when do you suppose the austerity and hard times will come to college presidents?
    If you're talking about the president of a 'public' university or community college, the answer is probably never. After all, their salary is being subsidized by taxpayers at several levels, from gov't funds transfers directly to the colleges, to gov't grant money coming into college coffers via tuition payments, to gov't backed student loan money also coming into college coffers via tuition payments. Much like the subprime housing bubble of a few years ago, as long as future students are able to access credit with no money down, and as long as a college education is still perceived to be a 'good investment', they'll keep enrolling and gov't cash will keep flowing from US taxpayers to the 'public' universities and community colleges !!!

    The only significant difference, though, is that a college degree can't be foreclosed on if the 'buyer' fails to make timely payments on their student loan LOL. In reality this isn't all that funny since 100% of the fallout from delinquent student loans will wind up being borne by future US taxpayers - without having even the 'distressed sale' market value of a foreclosed home to help reduce the net loss !!!

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    Veteran Member innes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    From experience:
    I graduated from college, top of my class, I've got a diploma and near perfect GPA. I have previous work experience.
    Guess who can't get a job?
    Two and a half months after I graduated, I *finally* got an interview - at a FAST FOOD PLACE. I could have gotten this job years ago. (I'm still waiting to hear back on whether or not I got this position).
    I've applied everywhere! To jobs "above" me, to jobs I "should" have, to jobs "below" me ... everything.

    I'm not in debt (thank goodness) as I worked my butt off during high school and college to be able to afford college ... but without a job right now I could go in debt
    InnesX

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    SAN DIEGO, Aug 09, 2011 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- Robbins Umeda LLP, a shareholder rights litigation firm, has commenced an investigation into possible breaches of fiduciary duty and other violations of the law by certain officers and directors at Education Management Corporation /quotes/zigman/108913/quotes/nls/edmc EDMC -1.22% . Education Management is the second-largest for profit college chain, providing in class and online instruction to students in North America. The company was founded in 1962, and is headquartered in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

    If you invested in Education Management and would like more information about your shareholder rights, please contact attorney Gregory E. Del Gaizo at 800-350-6003 or via the shareholder information form on our website.

    Robbins Umeda LLP's investigation focuses on whether the directors and officers of Education Management harmed the company by breaching their fiduciary duties to shareholders. In particular, the firm is investigating allegations that fiduciaries harmed the company by authorizing the use of improper sales and recruiting practices to defraud federal and state government agencies out of more than $11 billion dollars in student aid. Additionally, the firm is examining allegations that officials at Education Management illegally paid and unfairly incentivized recruiters to enroll new college students, regardless of a candidate's previous educational background or the aptitude to meet minimum qualifications, like the ability to read and write.
    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/rob...k=MW_news_stmp



    Ahhhh..... The govt gravy train..... Or how does that saying go..... The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Ahhhh..... The govt gravy train..... Or how does that saying go..... The road to hell is paved with good intentions
    The 'gold foil hat' crowd will point out that this potential investigation is going to go nowhere. It's going to hit a brick wall at the point where the 'for profit' college attorneys point out that gov't run public schools provided every one of their new 'low income' college students with a high school diploma, and that gov't backed Sallie May screened and approved every one of their new 'low income' college students for a gov't subsidized student loan.

    Thus the for-profit college attorneys will undoubtedly argue that if any 'fraud' actually occurred, it stemmed from gov't run public high schools certifying that their diploma'd graduates were capable of meeting minimum qualifications such as the ability to read and write !!! On the heels of the recent national publicity re Atlanta public school teachers caught 'doctoring' student grades, and the need for waivers to be issued re 'No Child Left Behind' student testing requirements, this lawsuit will undoubtedly be settled or dismissed rather than (re)opening the Pandora's Box of actual public school performance ( and particularly so for local public schools serving 'low income' areas ).

    Again, in certain Washington corridors, there are those who look upon student grants and loans being provided for 'low income' college students as well intended. In other Washington corridors, student loans and grants to 'low income' college students are at least looked on as an alternative to social welfare benefits for a 2-4 year period as well as a way to keep 'low income' young people peacefully occupied.

    However, this well intentioned policy has two serious consequences. The first is obviously that a large amount of non-bankruptcy dischargeable student loan debt will be hung around the necks of those 'low income' college students whether they graduate from college or not. The second, and IMHO more insidious, consequence is that employers recognize the de-facto sub-standard academic levels of for-profit colleges, community colleges, state colleges etc who are forced to 'curve' their grades to avoid immediately flunking out a huge percentage of their 'low income' students. Unfortunately, this reflects badly re the employers' perception of the academic abilities of EVERY student graduating from such colleges who submits a job application.

    This of course was the basis behind my earlier caveat that, these days, all degrees are NOT equal in the eyes of future employers. Thus anyone considering attending a state college or for-profit college should thoroughly investigate how well or how poorly that particular college is rated among regional employers. And community college degrees are now being pretty much written off by employers as only being equivalent to a diploma from a highly rated high school !

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-10-2011 at 03:52 AM.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    As someone who's looking at having $40k in loans when I get finished this December, I can definitely say that I wished I'd not gone back when I did.

    My degree is in Film and English and it isn't worth the paper it's printed on. My college his horrendous, and most Seniors graduate and never find a job in the industry. I've already been working in the film industry now for about 6 years. I've come a long way, but none of that required a degree, and most of the things I learned in class, I could've easily have taken a course/class with a better teacher, more convenient hours, and paid substantially less out of pocket.

    I've since moved into pro-Domme work on a part-time basis and will be doing camming and phone work to build a fan-base/clientele to pay off my debt as it's one of the few viable career options I have with a decent potential to pay off a substantial portion of my loans within a years time.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    ^^^ at least you've got the 'qualifications' to do the camming and phone work that will allow you to avoid having that $40k in student loans be an 'Albatross around your neck' for the next decade !!!

    I don't mean to be depressing, but just think of what your financial position could have been if you had not spent that $40k going to college, and had instead devoted a major effort to camming and phone work over the course of the last 4 years !!!

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ at least you've got the 'qualifications' to do the camming and phone work that will allow you to avoid having that $40k in student loans be an 'Albatross around your neck' for the next decade !!!

    I don't mean to be depressing, but just think of what your financial position could have been if you had not spent that $40k going to college, and had instead devoted a major effort to camming and phone work over the course of the last 4 years !!!
    I started in the adult industry as a non-nude paysite model when I was 19 yrs old, I'm 27 now. Due to a bad web master, lack of knowledge and motivation, I didn't succeed. I eventually left for more 'industry accepted' modeling to build a very impressive resume. (One of 4 that I have, so being in the adult industry for me isn't a necessity, but something that I'm choosing to do because of the $$$.)

    I can also say with certainty that I wouldn't have had the balls back then to do what I do now. I've changed a lot as a person over the past 9 years.

    As far as dropping out and going back to school, if I would've understood the issues with my college better, and had a stronger grasp on my career choices, I wouldn't have bothered.

    I'm very fortunate that Domming (and the various ways I can Domme) is a choice open to me as that will allow me to pay everything off and help secure myself financially for the future.
    Last edited by mistresscyn; 08-13-2011 at 03:07 PM. Reason: clarification

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    I'm completing a master's degree now and I'm in a ton of debt. Now, I realize that most jobs care about experience more than they do about degrees. So, I'm competing with thousands of other students for internships (non-paid) just to get experience in my field of study. This means I will probably not get a paid job in my field for at least a year.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    ^^^ it's difficult to make a general statement in regard to what employers are actually looking for in the way of 'successful' job applicants. But a few common characteristics seem to repeat themselves.

    - an employer wants to hire an applicant who can be immediately productive. Depending on the skill level of the particular job, this means that proven previous experience counts heavily.

    - an employer does NOT want to hire an applicant who is overqualified. The reason of course is that the employer and applicant both know that the applicant's acceptance of 'under-employment' will also be followed by a continuing job search for something 'better' ... thus eventually leaving the employer with the bill for providing specific training to the overqualified former employee plus the need to seek and train a replacement.

    - some employers place GREAT stock in the educational credentials of employees. This usually occurs when the employer must 'sell' those employee qualifications in order to bolster credibility. This usually applies to law firms, engineering firms, financial firms, gov't jobs etc. In such cases, a new graduate with an Ivy League or 'top shelf' degree may win out over an experienced earlier graduate from a state college or 'no name' college.

    - I also hate to say this, but 'who you know' and 'who you blow' are NOT total figments of imagination ... and particularly so where young and beautiful female potential job applicants are concerned. Obviously major corporations have firm policies in place on the 'who you blow' aspect, but many smaller businesses do not. And in regard to 'who you know', it is often the case that hiring occurs as the result of word of mouth knowledge of a job opening passing between friends, family, former classmates, etc. - with the posting of said job opening never being publicly listed.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mistresscyn View Post
    As someone who's looking at having $40k in loans when I get finished this December, I can definitely say that I wished I'd not gone back when I did.

    My degree is in Film and English and it isn't worth the paper it's printed on. My college his horrendous, and most Seniors graduate and never find a job in the industry. I've already been working in the film industry now for about 6 years. I've come a long way, but none of that required a degree, and most of the things I learned in class, I could've easily have taken a course/class with a better teacher, more convenient hours, and paid substantially less out of pocket.

    I've since moved into pro-Domme work on a part-time basis and will be doing camming and phone work to build a fan-base/clientele to pay off my debt as it's one of the few viable career options I have with a decent potential to pay off a substantial portion of my loans within a years time.
    By chance is your college in Chicago? I graduated from school with a famous film department and I hear the exact thing there. My degree is in radio (oddly my MA concentration was film and concentration mainly). Most of the people I attended college with never found a job in their field. Many are working in jobs not requiring a degree like salesperson, telemarketer, bus driver, etc.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    By chance is your college in Chicago? I graduated from school with a famous film department and I hear the exact thing there. My degree is in radio (oddly my MA concentration was film and concentration mainly). Most of the people I attended college with never found a job in their field. Many are working in jobs not requiring a degree like salesperson, telemarketer, bus driver, etc.
    No, this is an un-famous school in Louisiana. But as we have the 3rd largest film market in the nation here, it's pretty tragic.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Student Loan Default Rates Rise Sharply in Past Year
    By TAMAR LEWIN

    The share of federal student loan defaults rose sharply last year, especially at for-profit colleges and universities, where 15 percent of borrowers defaulted in the first two years of repayment, up from 11.6 percent the previous year.

    According to Department of Education data released Monday, 8.8 percent of borrowers over all defaulted in the fiscal year that ended last Sept. 30, the latest figures available, up from 7 percent the previous year.

    At public institutions, the rate was 7.2 percent, up from 6 percent, and at not-for-profit private institutions, it was 4.6 percent, up from 4 percent.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/13/ed...n/13loans.html


    STUDENT DEBT: America's Next Bubble?


    Figures provided by the Federal Reserve Bank of New York show that since 1999, outstanding student loan debt has grown by more than 511 percent. Over that same period, all other household debt in America – the sum total of all credit card bills, all auto loans, even all mortgage debt assumed during the great housing boom and bust that triggered the financial crisis – grew by about 100 percent.

    Rising by $100 billion a year, outstanding student loan debt now stands at about $930 billion, and is expected to reach $1 trillion by year’s end.

    “Student loan debt has become a macroeconomic factor; it affects the economy,” said Mark Kantrowitz, publisher of the financial aid website www.finaid.org. “Students who graduate with excessive debt are more likely to delay buying a car, buying a house, getting married, having children, saving for their retirement….They're spending less because they first have to tackle their student loan debt.”

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...s-next-bubble/

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    ^^^ yup, total student loan debt now reportedly exceeds total credit card debt in the USA.

    The kicker, of course, is that unlike unpaid credit card bills / car loans / mortgages etc. which are dischargeable via bankruptcy, student loan debt can only be gotten rid of by actually paying off the outstanding loan balance. Indeed in many cases these days, even if a new college graduate is lucky enough to land an entry level job, the available pay rate they receive from that entry level job combined with the monthly student loan payment cost may leave them with a net disposable income that falls below the official 'poverty' level ( without being eligible for the social welfare benefits and lower tax rates that would apply had their gross income actually fallen below the 'official' poverty level ).

    Thus the author of your snippet is indeed correct that many recent college graduates are very likely to spend the next 10+ years renting cheap apartments, driving older cars, postponing marriage / children, and saving little or nothing from their paychecks, as they concentrate on staying current with their student loan payments. And falling behind on student loan payments only serves to extend the length of time that the student loan will continue to 'paralyze' their financial progress.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    It's possible to discharge student loans in bankruptcy, but it's very rare. Which does make sense - otherwise it would be too easy to declare bankruptcy after graduating before accumulating any real assets.

    Students need to be smart about how they spend their tuition money. If you go to a private school, are you really receiving a superior education justifying the increased tuition and debt load?

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    - an employer does NOT want to hire an applicant who is overqualified. The reason of course is that the employer and applicant both know that the applicant's acceptance of 'under-employment' will also be followed by a continuing job search for something 'better' ... thus eventually leaving the employer with the bill for providing specific training to the overqualified former employee plus the need to seek and train a replacement.
    I'm noticing this in interviews. For instance let's rate jobs from 1 (entry level) to 10 (upper management). I am say a 6 or so and am getting job interviews from 7-8. However, when I apply for jobs at 6 or below I rarely get calls and never get the job.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    It's possible to discharge student loans in bankruptcy, but it's very rare
    rare to the point of near extinction. The only student loans eligible for discharge via bankruptcy are loans made directly by banks / private lenders that do NOT have gov't guarantees.


    I'm noticing this in interviews. For instance let's rate jobs from 1 (entry level) to 10 (upper management). I am say a 6 or so and am getting job interviews from 7-8. However, when I apply for jobs at 6 or below I rarely get calls and never get the job.
    Yup. Most successful business operators thoroughly analyze their cost structures ... and employee training costs / turnover rate is usually a major component.


    If you go to a private school, are you really receiving a superior education justifying the increased tuition and debt load?
    Where private schools are concerned, a superior education may not be the only issue involved. See my earlier post regarding 'who you know'.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    I thought about starting a new thread on the affordability of college education but hesitated to do so to avoid anything too "political". Likewise, I hesitated to chime in on this thread for the same reason. However the questions of whether to go to college and how to pay for it are important for many S-webbers so I will try to raise the relevant issues in as neutral or an apolitical way as possible.

    1. As many other posters have pointed out , whether or not to go to college is certainly a topical issue. Despite the exhorbitant cost, the fact remains that earnings for college grads are much higher than for non-college graduates. Likewise the unemployment rate for graduates is much lower than for those without a college degree.

    2. The cost of college today is ridiculous. Inflation adjusted tution and fees have TRIPLED in the last 30 years. My alma mater is now charging students almost seven times what I paid about 30 years ago. The irony is that Federal aid to college education has more than quadrupled since 1980 and student loan debt is now greater than credit card debt. Currently it is more than $800 billion.

    3. Attention today is focused on "for-profit" colleges but another irony is that "non-profit" colleges have higher profit margins . Huh ? What ? Eric : Non- profit colleges don't have "Profits". That's why they call them "non-profit". Actually they do and they are increasing far beyond the rate of inflation. A profit is defined here as money exceeding the cost of educating a student. Non-profits take the excess money from undergraduate education and spread it around the campus to subsidize research, graduate education, majors and departments nobody is interested in ,athletics, cultural activities, excess compensation and blatant featherbedding.

    4. If you compute all the input costs of educating a student from professor salaries to photocopying, it costs roughly $8000 a year to educate an undergrad at a RESIDENTIAL college. But private universities are charging an average of $37,000 and public universities are charging in-state residents ( legal or not ) an average of $16,000. The money these colleges take in does NOT include endowment giving , Federal, corporate and institutional grants.

    Rather than make a blanket statement, I think I can stay within the permissible parameters by just raising the question as to how much of this is caused by Federal aid including Pell grants and student loans ? In other words the virtual Federal takeover of student loans is likely to increase what colleges are charging. Without them , colleges would be forced to REDUCE tuition to make themselves more affordable. Let's leave out any discussion of whether or not the Federal government should be doing these things. The fact is that for now, we have these programs and their effects on the cost of college is clear. Just as the Fed pumped up the housing bubble by pumping out money , so too the Federal government is pumping up college costs. It is another irony that they have done so as part of a well intentioned effort to make college more affordable and more accessible to more people.

    Another question is whether for-profit colleges and on-line universities are doing the same or better for less ? Any grads or students from either or both care to share their first hand experience ? Any regrets on missing out on the "college experience" ?
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 10-11-2011 at 10:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    I can't answer that since I attended several non profits. How it went for me is this: I attended a junior college for a year since I got a free ride. Not many know this but if you graduate top 25% of your class and decide to attend a community college they will usually pick up the whole tage. Everything was included, tuition, fees, books, even got a stipend that was pretty generous. Then after the year I went to a religious college but only went a semester. After that I started stripping and attended art college where I graduated. I then went to a public grad school.

    I can't speak for all of these schools since I only used the job services at the two schools I actually graduated from. The art college job center is worthless unless you have connections. Grad school job services did help me with my resume and periodically have job fairs. I did get one of my jobs from attending the grad school and got many interviews from attending the art college.

    I do know a few who attended the for profit schools and have heard they found jobs but they were often lower jobs. One of my former employers refuses to interview people from for profit schools because "it's not a real school". Many employers have that attitude.

    One other thing about the art college is that I felt I was paying for the name. It's a well known school and many people who go into the vision, performing and media arts attend the college. However, it was a piss poor excuse for a school. It had open admission, which meant anyone could attend. Because of this many classes were watered down. I usually had all the work done by the middle of the semester. They also didn't offer a student center or a fitness center. I understand they do now as well as dorms (it was a commuter school when I attended). The equipment was very outdated and they were teaching us things on this equipment long out of style. Plus we were also paying "student fees" on every class, for things like paper. Also, they charged us all this money for activity fees and most of the activities were of a politically nature (won't go there due to the political ban).

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    just raising the question as to how much of this is caused by Federal aid including Pell grants and student loans ? In other words the virtual Federal takeover of student loans is likely to increase what colleges are charging. Without them , colleges would be forced to REDUCE tuition to make themselves more affordable. Let's leave out any discussion of whether or not the Federal government should be doing these things.
    It's a fair question as to whether the easy availability of student loans is a contributor to rising tuition, however the risk of experimenting to see if reductions force schools to reign in cost should be obvious. As a first step I think the Obama administration did a good thing shutting down subsidies to private lenders for federally guaranteed loans; the next step should probably be looking at amounts and more academic merit based qualifications.

    Also I think you have it the wrong way around with "programs of little interest". It's cheap to teach humanities and when a history major is paying the same tuition as a mechanical engineering major, it's the history major doing the subsidizing. Some universities have already started moving towards real cost per credit rather than flat rates.

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