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Thread: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

  1. #126
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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krill_ View Post
    It's a fair question as to whether the easy availability of student loans is a contributor to rising tuition, however the risk of experimenting to see if reductions force schools to reign in cost should be obvious. As a first step I think the Obama administration did a good thing shutting down subsidies to private lenders for federally guaranteed loans; the next step should probably be looking at amounts and more academic merit based qualifications.

    Also I think you have it the wrong way around with "programs of little interest". It's cheap to teach humanities and when a history major is paying the same tuition as a mechanical engineering major, it's the history major doing the subsidizing. Some universities have already started moving towards real cost per credit rather than flat rates.
    Easy does it with the "politics". I refrained and so can you.

    I understand your point concerning the varying cost of various courses but there is no reason to go there. The issue is the AVERAGE cost of educating a student versus what the colleges are actually charging. It's an interesting question whether at some point we will have "no-frills" universities where the students do the reading and watch the lectures on line. Then mail in their papers and tests and get graded. We will still have things like the LSAT and GRE to guage actual student achievement and performance. What you miss out on are the community and comraderie of university life ; living away from home ; personally interacting with the professors etc. My guess is that for a lot of people the trade-off would be well worth it based on radically reduced costs.

    Here's another issue , especially for the public universities : How much subsidizing ought there be ( by both the taxpayers and tuition paying students ) for low demand majors ? If economics and engineering are in greatest demand and offer the best chance of of post grad employment why should things like "Women's Studies" ; "African -American Studies" ; Art History or even Classical Languages be subsidized ? The obvious answer is that it would mean the death knell for "Liberal Arts" which is arguably not a good thing. Not good for students and not good for society at large. Many employers have expressed preference for well rounded graduates so the English Departments ought to be safe. But ultimately it comes down to how much Liberal Education we can afford and are willing to pay for.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 10-12-2011 at 09:47 AM.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    I think students should be told that the whole thing about employers wanting anyone with a degree is a myth. I know when I started college back in the early 90's I was told that employees just wanted degreed, didn't care what degree. This is a lie and I've known people in worthless degrees who found that employers didn't hire them because of this.

    However, many employers want general degrees instead of a specific degree. Certain degrees are sort of a catch all, if this makes sense. I have a communications degree, which is a general one, as is business. In college I concentrated major wise on radio and minor wise on marketing but neither are listed on my degree it just says communications and business. Oddly I always state my minor is marketing but rarely do I list my broadcasting major. I see a lot of employers asking for these degrees because the thought is with them they have fantastic writing and logic skills. I have never seen ads looking for a womens study degree unless it was for a women organization or for teaching.

    The amount of former classmates I know with degrees in worthless degrees working jobs that don't require them is astounding. Many are working as cashiers and a few others are bus drivers. I know if I had to do it again I'd probably get a degree in something more valuable.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    The issue is the AVERAGE cost of educating a student versus what the colleges are actually charging. It's an interesting question whether at some point we will have "no-frills" universities where the students do the reading and watch the lectures on line. Then mail in their papers and tests and get graded. We will still have things like the LSAT and GRE to guage actual student achievement and performance. What you miss out on are the community and comraderie of university life ; living away from home ; personally interacting with the professors etc. My guess is that for a lot of people the trade-off would be well worth it based on radically reduced costs.
    What you're describing is reality. Online courses are a joke, and for-profit online universities are one of the best rackets going. One often cited statistic is Phoenix University graduating 4% of its online students within a 6 year period, and that's at one of the supposedly reputable online universities. That is shockingly bad. There's also issues with job placement and student / teacher relationships that never develop for job placement and recommendations.

    Having said that, one thing that I must say is awesome with online learning is free online lectures that many universities are now making available to the public.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

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  6. #130
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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krill_ View Post
    What you're describing is reality. Online courses are a joke, and for-profit online universities are one of the best rackets going. One often cited statistic is Phoenix University graduating 4% of its online students within a 6 year period, and that's at one of the supposedly reputable online universities. That is shockingly bad. There's also issues with job placement and student / teacher relationships that never develop for job placement and recommendations.

    Having said that, one thing that I must say is awesome with online learning is free online lectures that many universities are now making available to the public.
    You've hit the nail on the head but I think there are a LOT of reasons for such a low graduation rate at Phoenix et.al. The six year rate at a LOT of lower grade public colleges and universities isn't all that much better.

    As you say , there are services and benefits that come with a "real" college that you can't get online.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    I think students should be told that the whole thing about employers wanting anyone with a degree is a myth. I know when I started college back in the early 90's I was told that employees just wanted degreed, didn't care what degree. This is a lie and I've known people in worthless degrees who found that employers didn't hire them because of this.

    However, many employers want general degrees instead of a specific degree. Certain degrees are sort of a catch all, if this makes sense. I have a communications degree, which is a general one, as is business. In college I concentrated major wise on radio and minor wise on marketing but neither are listed on my degree it just says communications and business. Oddly I always state my minor is marketing but rarely do I list my broadcasting major. I see a lot of employers asking for these degrees because the thought is with them they have fantastic writing and logic skills. I have never seen ads looking for a womens study degree unless it was for a women organization or for teaching.

    The amount of former classmates I know with degrees in worthless degrees working jobs that don't require them is astounding. Many are working as cashiers and a few others are bus drivers. I know if I had to do it again I'd probably get a degree in something more valuable.
    I'm going to admittedly cross the line a bit to make a larger and relevant point. I have long thought that certain majors like Women's Studies and African-American studies do little more than build self esteem among the students and provide employment for a lot of middling and mediocre academics. Cornel West is a prime example. Not according to me ; but his peers consider his "scholarship" a worthless joke. He is the poster man for worthless courses. I say "worthless" because how many employers are seriously interested in hiring an African American studies major ? Or as you point out, what job skills do you get by majoring in Women's Studies ?

    These areas of study also let the poobahs of academia feel better about themselves and their institutions by promoting diversity and letting students feel better about themselves. That's all fine and dandy except that EVERYONE pays for these "feel good " programs that have little to no practical value for the students.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    circling back to the central thread topic, indeed many employers now regard community college 2 year degrees and for-profit 2 year degrees as 'worthless' from the standpoint of improving the expected productivity of graduates over the expected productivity of other job candidates without a 2 year degree. Obviously there may be exceptions, and especially so when the 2 year degree is in a highly techical field.

    For better or worse, the same sort of 'stigma' is now being projected on 4 year degree holders from for-profit colleges and from certain state colleges. Arguably, this is just another extension of the widening 'gap' between the 'haves' and the 'have-nots' ... in the sense that prospective employers give increased weight, increased hiring probability, and increased starting salary levels, to 4 year degree holders from Ivy League and other 'name' schools. This is based on an employer perception that the academic standards of the Ivy League and other 'name' schools are now significantly higher than those of for-profit and/or state colleges offering the same degrees.

    In either of the above cases, the blunt point to consider is that college students attempting to earn a degree at 1/3 or 1/4 the tuition cost of the equivalent Ivy League or 'name' college degree may not in fact get 'equal value' from prospective future employers after they graduate from a for-profit or state college. This leads to yet another equation of the true cost of the degree when 'lost opportunity cost' i.e. not earning a paycheck while studying for 2-4 years, and 'costs of living' for those 2-4 years, are also considered. If these factors are taken into account for an exotic dancer, where the 'lost opportunity cost' of not dancing full time in order to study could add up to $200,000+ over a 4 year period, the actual net cost differential of attending an Ivy League or 'name' college versus a for-profit or state college may only be on the order of 25-33%. If this 25-33% net savings results in a permanent pay rate differential, and/or a longer time period to be hired at an entry level job, and/or a higher probability of being hit with future layoffs, the decision to pursue a for-profit or state college degree may indeed be a net money loser.

    Agreed that de-facto 'cost shifting' occurs on a routine basis regarding the actual costs incurred by colleges to offer different degree programs, programs of differing 'popularity' thus differing number of enrolled students over which to spread the costs, while charging a 'one size fits all' tuition rate per credit-hour. But in terms of the central point of this thread, that merely means that the student loan balance will be higher than it otherwise might have been.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 10-13-2011 at 10:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    I'm going to admittedly cross the line a bit to make a larger and relevant point. I have long thought that certain majors like Women's Studies and African-American studies do little more than build self esteem among the students and provide employment for a lot of middling and mediocre academics. Cornel West is a prime example. Not according to me ; but his peers consider his "scholarship" a worthless joke. He is the poster man for worthless courses. I say "worthless" because how many employers are seriously interested in hiring an African American studies major ? Or as you point out, what job skills do you get by majoring in Women's Studies ?

    These areas of study also let the poobahs of academia feel better about themselves and their institutions by promoting diversity and letting students feel better about themselves. That's all fine and dandy except that EVERYONE pays for these "feel good " programs that have little to no practical value for the students.
    I actually think that too. I was told long ago that worthless degrees are there for the less achieving students so they feel their degree is important. However they get the degrees and find no jobs are available. I'll even go further and say many degrees accomplish that as well now. If I knew then what I know now I would have majored in something like business instead of just getting a minor. At least though in my degree I was required to take a lot of courses like economics and marketing that have value. I originally considered some kind of theatre or dance degree but not much use for those either (though to me they are more worthwhile than women studies or African American studies). They are far from the only worthless degrees.

    I think this goes back to what I always say and that is college has become an extension of high school. People who never should have gone to college are now attending. Because colleges tend to make more from these students (because they tend to take longer to graduate and often require remedial classes) they offer these degrees for them. Then of course they water down the other courses so they don't feel bad (because heaven forbid we upset kids who aren't as academic as others). We all pay the price because it lowers the value of degrees and people often go in debt to pay for the paper.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    ^^^ Both you and Mel are pretty much ending up at the same place via slightly different routes.

    Sad though it may be the plain facts are that :

    1. Too many people are going to college.

    2. Too many are attending who would be better served by some other type of training.

    3. College costs are out of control.

    4. A degree is NOT worth what it once was. There are even plenty of Ivy League degrees that have little to no value to many prospective employers.

    5. Student debt is out of control.

    All that being said, there are ways to limit and control the cost of college :

    1. Take as many AP courses in high school as possible. When I was in high school we had a grand total of one (1) AP course. Today, many high schools have as many as 10 or 12.

    2. Go to a "public" in state school whenever possible.

    3. Apply for as many scholarships and grants as you possibly can. Applying for a lot of these things has almost become a lost art. There are books and websites devoted to the whole application process that can help walk you through applying for a lot of possible sources of college money. The worst they can do is say : "NO". There are also web-sites devoted to helping you graduate college with low to no student loan debt.

    4. Many employers still have programs that pay for college or college courses.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 10-14-2011 at 07:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    I'm definitely in agreement with her. I know when I was in school there were only a few AP classes, but several honors courses which at that time were pretty much the same. In hindsight it would have made more sense for me to take those classes.

    But yes, way too many students are attending college who would be better served by trade schools. But the problem is many of the trade schools are closing. I've mentioned this before but when I was in school we had college prep route and work study route. Those students in the remedial classes or deemed not smart enough (obviously it was worded differently)were encouraged to attend classes at the vocational school and it was set up junior and senior year these students would attend half classes there and half at high school. I don't know much else except that these students were graduating school and had actual careers in hairstyling or mechanics. This vocational school closed a few years back because the high schools now encourage everyone to attend college.

    Of course now there is what I call the "easy A" classes where everyone gets an A no matter how good. Teachers are now told to give good grades in many classes. So many don't know how well they are really doing.

    Speaking of the employers that pay for classes, my last employer did that and most of the companies I've been interviewing for also offer these. While I would love to go and get another degree I will not unless someone else pays for it. My former employer wanted me to get an accounting degree but I was laid off before it happened.

    I will say though that so far grad school is not open to everyone and I hope it never is. I suspect it will be though. When I was in grad school and got my first test I was stunned because unlike college, which was mostly t/f, multiple choice, etc, grad school tests are hard. You need to do an essay and write out the answers and all without notes.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    I think students should be told that the whole thing about employers wanting anyone with a degree is a myth. I know when I started college back in the early 90's I was told that employees just wanted degreed, didn't care what degree. This is a lie and I've known people in worthless degrees who found that employers didn't hire them because of this.

    However, many employers want general degrees instead of a specific degree. Certain degrees are sort of a catch all, if this makes sense. I have a communications degree, which is a general one, as is business. In college I concentrated major wise on radio and minor wise on marketing but neither are listed on my degree it just says communications and business. Oddly I always state my minor is marketing but rarely do I list my broadcasting major. I see a lot of employers asking for these degrees because the thought is with them they have fantastic writing and logic skills. I have never seen ads looking for a womens study degree unless it was for a women organization or for teaching.

    The amount of former classmates I know with degrees in worthless degrees working jobs that don't require them is astounding. Many are working as cashiers and a few others are bus drivers. I know if I had to do it again I'd probably get a degree in something more valuable.
    I think colleges need to offer more practical life classes and push for more internships within their field. I only consider a degree "worthless" if you never use it. I'm about to finish my undergrad in Film with an English minor. (My actual major is film, theater, and communications, so I'll have to see how that comes up on my degree.)

    Three Stories, Three Outcomes:

    -I have a friend who graduated in Int'l Studies a few years ago. She went to get a job in her field and was denied because she didn't have any internship experience. She spent the next year doing crappy internships and working crappy retail positions she could've done in college. She finally went to S. Korea to do TESL. She's been there ever since and has managed to tour most of Asia and pay off all her student loan debt in the process.

    -My roommate graduated magna cum laude about a year or two ago with a Media Production degree and a minor in photography and something else I can't remember. She's since gone to work at a leasing office after getting out of the retail industry, and is now a Property Manager at a tiny 8-plex for her Dad. She has yet to start paying off her $75k in student loan debt and is just grateful that it's gone into collections and she no longer has to pay the interest on it as well. (She'd planned on consolidating her loans, but that ended when the new college loan rules went into effect.) To top this off, she's realized that after doing student films/internships, and finally coming to "Hollywood South" that she doesn't actually want work in the Entertainment Industry. She's currently doing alcohol promos and her family is pushing her to get a generic desk job. (She also isn't having much luck with Domming, so I don't know how things are going to work out for her in the long run.)

    -I'm about graduate college at the young age of 27 (lol) with a "C" gpa and $35k of student loan debt. I'm figuring that when I get a chance to start domming full-time that I'll make enough money to pay off my entire student loan debt in less than a year. (This is based off of realistic earning percentages I've seen from other dommes, cam performers, etc.) Oddly, I plan on applying the little I've learned in my major in college (my minor/various electives were more informative), with opening my own clip store/doing web cam shows. I figure that if I want/need to quit, that I'll have the option for an "early retirement" in about 3 years after touring the US, Europe/Asia, and buying a house. From there I can jump back into the film industry and possibly move into IATSE or discretely TESL.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    I firmly believe in internships and did quite a few in college. The colleges I attended required all students to do an internship. Strangely as far as I'm concerned my degree comes into play often when it comes to jobs. More than anything though my SKILLS play a bigger part, some I learned in school, others at work or taught myself.

    I often wonder though with those who have these rather specific degrees how they can get decent jobs. I would assume they go into them hoping to get into an organization where they would come in handy.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mistresscyn View Post
    I only consider a degree "worthless" if you never use it.
    I don't think that's true. What about me, for example? I have undergrad and grad work both in psychology, and I use that information every day of my life, and especially in dancing & camming. I'm sure I would be making half of what I'm making now if I didn't have that knowledge. I also feel like it improved my mental health and my quality of life in general.

    So while I've never technically "used" my degree to stay (I quit) in a vanilla psychology job, it has helped tremendously. Then again, maybe I will use it at some point because I am only in my early-to-mid 20s. But the point is, I don't think its so cut and dry.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    I will graduate in May with a bachelor's of science in business from a private college with a 3.7 gpa. I haven't done any internships, but I really should- my school has internship fairs and offers a lot of help when it comes to getting them. The hold up right now is that I have a 2.5 hour commute to school (I totaled my car, too) and the fact that I really have no desire to work in the corporate world. I feel I will make far less at entry level than I will dancing and building my dancewear business.

    I get frustrated with school and think that it is worthless. Truly- it isn't. I've had good marketing, human resources, management, and leadership courses. I've learned a lot and have been able to polish my business skills. However, I don't think it is worth the 80k in loans I will graduate with. Hopefully, I can get motivated to find an internship or two and at least try out the 'real job' world.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    ^^^ you hit on the root question yet again. Nobody is disputing the fact that obtaining a college degree of any kind has 'value'. However, the question is whether the total cost of tuition, PLUS the lost opportunity cost of studying instead of doing some other activity that would have produced income, is 'worth it' compared to the added 'value' gained from obtaining the degree.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ you hit on the root question yet again. Nobody is disputing the fact that obtaining a college degree of any kind has 'value'. However, the question is whether the total cost of tuition, PLUS the lost opportunity cost of studying instead of doing some other activity that would have produced income, is 'worth it' compared to the added 'value' gained from obtaining the degree.
    That IS the $100,000 question isn't it ?

    It is interesting to read the personal stories here on S-Web and compare them to the spoiled brats of "Occupy Wall St. " Most of the posters here paid for college themselves and tried to take courses relevant to earning a better living. In contrast, read what some of those demonstrators majored in and it's no surpise why many "cannot find jobs". Ironically, when surveyed , a LOT of them are employed.

    Likewise, there is a LOT less bitching here about the debt incurred for college. Just acceptance that loans had to be taken out to pay for school. In contrast the demonstrators are "demanding " that their student loans be forgiven.

    I don't want to get any deeper into this for the usual "political" reasons but I couldn't resist commenting on the contrast in attitude between most of the posters here and the demonstrators.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post

    Likewise, there is a LOT less bitching here about the debt incurred for college. Just acceptance that loans had to be taken out to pay for school. In contrast the demonstrators are "demanding " that their student loans be forgiven.

    It's still early.... The cry will grow...... This nation (Not a political statement ) socializes it's losses.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Well, I do complain about my student loans because my debt has not paid off even now. I'm not alone though and this recession is proving nothing is safe. However, because of my skills I have no doubt it will eventually. This is why I switched several minors. I will say though that many students (mostly recent grads)have this attitude that they are owed something. I never thought that.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GlamourRouge View Post
    I don't think that's true. What about me, for example? I have undergrad and grad work both in psychology, and I use that information every day of my life, and especially in dancing & camming. I'm sure I would be making half of what I'm making now if I didn't have that knowledge. I also feel like it improved my mental health and my quality of life in general.

    So while I've never technically "used" my degree to stay (I quit) in a vanilla psychology job, it has helped tremendously. Then again, maybe I will use it at some point because I am only in my early-to-mid 20s. But the point is, I don't think its so cut and dry.
    I don't doubt that the knowledge gained in college isn't useful. I use my degree every single day. When I edit clips for site, when I write for a magazine or other publication, when I get hired for an acting gig, etc. There probably isn't a week that goes by that I don't use something I learned in relation to my degree.

    However, do I think my degree is worth $35k? No. I could've learned everything I learned in college through workshops, classes, and demonstrations that probably would've cost me half of that. Hell, maybe even a quarter of that. And I would've had full control over who I studied with and how long. (There was a lot of things I couldn't take in college because they wouldn't have counted towards my degree, couldn't get into due to pre-reqs, etc.)

    So do I need to use my degree to make it worth it? Technically yes because it doesn't justify the cost of the degree.

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    Default Re: Student Loan Debt Hell ... is a college degree still a 'good investment' ?

    So do I need to use my degree to make it worth it? Technically yes because it doesn't justify the cost of the degree
    Please note that the following comment involves nothing personal, and is only intended as 'food for thought'. However, this approach is in many ways equivalent to an 'emotional' investor doubling down on a losing investment !


    I will say though that many students (mostly recent grads)have this attitude that they are owed something. I never thought that.
    ... arguably based on the old paradigm that investing time and money to obtain a 4 year+ college degree will ALWAYS result in a 'comfortable middle class' lifestyle. Well, they invested the time and effort, and they invested ( borrowed ) money, and there's no 'payoff' waiting for them ! Thus they feel they have been 'cheated' and therefore don't need to make payments on their ( losing ) investment.


    It's still early.... The cry will grow...... This nation (Not a political statement ) socializes it's losses
    ... perhaps for some, i.e. the officially 'poor'. However, student loan debt has now reached the 1 trillion dollar level, which exceeds the total amount of US credit card debt !!! There's simply no way for US taxpayers to absorb that kind of 'hit' ... and especially so when it would benefit upper middle class name college graduates !

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 10-19-2011 at 11:05 PM.

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