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Thread: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

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    Default BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    this is an eye opener ...

    from

    (snip)"The BLS released their occupational employment and wages report for May 2010. While the data on what kind of jobs are being created is one year old, the report still gives insight on what kind of job growth has occurred since December 2007, the start of the Great Recession. What we have are low paying service jobs as the dominant job growth.





    Above are the top 10 job occupations in America for May 2010. These jobs make up 20% of all employment.

    The 10 largest occupations accounted for more than 20 percent of total employment in May 2010. In addition to retail salespersons and cashiers, the largest occupations included general office clerks; combined food preparation and serving workers, including fast food; registered nurses; and waiters and waitresses.

    Even worst, 6% of all jobs are cashiers and retail sales clerks and from the above chart, 17% are low paying office worker jobs.

    Wages are no better, with the largest jobs areas being incredibly low paying. Only nurses were above the measly median wage of $21.35 per hour or $44,410 annually.

    Most of the largest occupations were relatively low paying. Of the 10 largest occupations, only registered nurses had an average wage above the U.S. all-occupations mean of $21.35 per hour or $44,410 annually. Combined food preparation and serving workers, cashiers, and waiters and waitresses were the three lowest paying of the 10 largest occupations, and also among the lowest-paying occupations overall.





    The professional careers, not management, only make up 1% of all employment.

    The smallest occupational groups included legal occupations and life, physical, and social science occupations, each representing around 1 percent of total employment. Most employment in these two groups came from occupations with above average wages, such as judges, with an

    While 91% of those low paying jobs are from the private sector, we have this alarming static for statement government. The #1 occupation for state government are jailers:

    Correctional officers and jailers was the largest occupation in state government, with employment of nearly 257,000.

    By industry we see a sad state of affairs. The highest growth is with health care, taking care of sick people, next, low paying retail sales.

    Health care and social assistance was the industry sector with the highest employment, followed by retail trade. Over half of employment in the health care and social assistance sector was in healthcare-related occupations, including registered nurses; nursing aides, orderlies, and attendants; home health aides; and licensed practical and licensed vocational nurses. Other large occupations in this sector included personal care aides, medical secretaries, and childcare workers. More than 60 percent of retail trade employment was in just 4 occupations: retail salespersons, cashiers, stock clerks and order fillers, and first-line supervisors of retail salesworkers.

    Of the highest occupations, look at these wages. You cannot rent a cardboard box by yourself on these wages.

    The industries with the lowest all-occupations mean wages consisted primarily of food service and retail trade industries. In limited-service eating places, the industry with the lowest overall average wage, 8 of the 10 largest occupations had mean wages below $10.00 per hour, including combined food preparation and serving workers, including fast food ($8.62); fast food cooks ($8.85); and counter attendants, cafeteria, food concession, and coffee shop ($8.82).

    This report is horrific. It appears they have offshore outsourced the jobs, in particular production, manufacturing and left us with a slew of burger flipper opportunities.

    Lest you believe U.S. tech workers are doing alright, the BLS counts foreign guest workers in their statistics, as well as illegal immigrants. There has been severe labor arbitrage in the scientific and technical fields through use of temporary foreign guest worker Visas and manipulation of the U.S. immigration system."(snip)

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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    It looks like a Republican dream. Ship all the manufacturing jobs overseas with "free trade" deals, bring in HB1 Visa workers to take high tech jobs, outsource any job that can be done overseas for a buck an hour, bring in 20 million illegals to keep wages down and take jobs "that Americans don't want."

    The Milton Friedman fantasy world of "free trade" and outsourcing didn't work out like the Republicans had envisioned it. Even Milton Friedman was having second thoughts on "free trade" and outsourcing/insourcing before he died. It's going to take the total collapse of the U.S. to get the majority of Republicans to have second thoughts on this.

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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    ^^^ you mean all of these 'republican' supporting corporations ( NOT )

    (snip)"Top 25 US [ H1B plus E3 - sic ] Visa Employers in 2009 for FY2010

    1. Wipro 1,964
    2. Microsoft 1,318
    3. Intel 723
    4. IBM 695
    5. Patni Americas 609
    6. Larsen & Toubro Infotech 602
    7. Ernst & Young 481
    8. Infosys 440
    9. UST Global 344
    10. Deloitte 328
    11. Qualcomm 320
    12. Cisco Systems 308
    13. Accenture 287
    14. KPMG 287
    15. Oracle 272
    16. Polaris Software Lab India 254
    17. Rite Aid 240
    18. Goldman Sachs 236
    19. Deloitte & Touche 235
    20. Cognizant 233
    21. Mphasis 229
    22. Satyam 219
    23. Bloomberg 217
    24. Motorola 213
    25. Google 211

    (snip) from


    and before anybody attempts to argue the point that these corporations don't heavily favor democrat politicians ...

    (snip)"Company Name Microsoft Corporation
    Stock Symbol MSFT
    Sector Technology
    Industry Software & Programming
    Total Contribution Dollar Amount $13,274,570 (1999 - Present)
    Average Contribution Dollar Amount $781
    Total Contribution Dollar Amount to Republicans $1,946,302 (15% of total)
    Average Contribution Dollar Amount to Republicans $875
    Total Contribution Dollar Amount to Democrats $5,471,263 (41% of total)
    Average Contribution Dollar Amount to Democrats $827 "(snip)

    from
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-24-2011 at 09:42 AM.

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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    This is exactly what I've been saying for awhile. The only jobs that are really safe in terms of security, & why a person would want to get a college degree usually, are the jobs that generally require an actual person to be standing there or making decisions that a computer can't.

    Doctors will never be fully replaced, but I can tell you from working in the medical industry that many new technologies referred to as "telemedicine" mean that physicians can now service a patient even from a distance. Years ago the AMA was already discussing units where patients in remote places around countries like Africa could walk into a video conferencing unit, connect to a physician anywhere around the world, have blood pressure & such read, then receive a diagnoses & prescription! Right now if you are considering medical school, opting to specialize in surgical procedures would probably be a better bet.

    Now just wait until the robots get advanced enough to do more jobs... people are going to be SCREWED. Sure, most of these might be jobs that people don't really want, but sometimes they are jobs that people NEED. For example, people who have mental handicaps can't necessarily do some of the jobs that require long-term memory, keeping track of many smaller (but important) details, or intense social interaction. If technology takes away jobs from these people it will take away not only something that gives most people self confidence, but also the opportunity for these people to earn a living as a mass & have a chance at some self sufficiency. In other words those who are just on the brink of being able to live by themselves would have a much tougher time getting a job that they can handle, they they couldn't afford to live alone. Their parents may not always be around, & they may not have any family once the parents are gone. Who will take care of them then? Probably public assistance & taxes. Anyone really believe this is worth it? Its like forcing people to ask for handouts.

    There's one job the computers & robots won't ever be able to replace though because:

    • Its involves multiple human senses: sight, sound, touch, smell...
    • Nothing feels as good as believing someone (not a computer) cares about you
    • Each person providing this service is a unique experience


    What's the answer?

    In-person Striptease... so count your lucky stars!


    While the customers might become fewer as people grow more accustomed to online interaction, our industry will never really go away. Of course there's at least one other profession that we see on this forum which will also NEVER be replaced... even if it's not legal. The fact is that certain qualities in a job mean they will withstand the test of time.
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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    There's one job the computers & robots won't ever be able to replace though because:

    Its involves multiple human senses: sight, sound, touch, smell...
    Nothing feels as good as believing someone (not a computer) cares about you
    Each person providing this service is a unique experience

    What's the answer?

    In-person Striptease... so count your lucky stars!

    Unfortunately, while it is true that 'stripper' is a job category that will always be in demand, this profession is also the 'victim' of H1B-'esque' / illegal labor rate arbitrage. Obviously I'm talking about the future ability of an American 'stripper' to successfully compete with an illegal alien 'stripper' who. besides being 'hot', is also willing to perform private dances at 1/2 price and/or offer reasonably priced 'extras' to American strip club customers.

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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Unfortunately, while it is true that 'stripper' is a job category that will always be in demand, this profession is also the 'victim' of H1B-'esque' / illegal labor rate arbitrage. Obviously I'm talking about the future ability of an American 'stripper' to successfully compete with an illegal alien 'stripper' who. besides being 'hot', is also willing to perform private dances at 1/2 price and/or offer reasonably priced 'extras' to American strip club customers.
    Agreed, however you've seen me say before that I really believe we are going to see local stripper co-ops start popping up, where the entertainers will opt to skip the high house fees for something they are more in control of at a cheaper price. Beyond that, the "other services" have always been around... yet our industry still exists. While we will always compete for a percentage of the same clientele, other percentages will be loyal to one industry or the other... so again we'll never be totally out. Plus, when I look at the entertainers who do private dancing in my area the majority of them don't even realize that they are supposed to have a license, are not well skilled, & do not present themselves well online or in-person. Needless to say while they may take the cheaper clients, the VIP clients who have the money & want a quality experience won't be going for those entertainers.
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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    the VIP clients who have the money & want a quality experience won't be going for those entertainers.
    Actually, this principle is proven by Tiffany, Porsche, and a host of other companies that offer expensive upscale goods and services to the 'rich' that are currently experiencing record sales and profits. And while that is good news for a select few workers who are able to be hired by the Tiffany stores and Porsche dealerships, it doesn't do a thing to help the vast majority of sales clerks who wind up working at Penneys or WalMart or the vast majority of car salespersons who wind up working for GM or Kia. The analogy of course is that a select few top shelf dancers ... those who are able to be 'hired' by upscale clubs catering to 'rich' customers ... will remain unaffected, but that the remaining 90%+ of dancers who wind up being 'hired' by neighborhood / downscale clubs will wind up competing with the 'extras' and cut rate tactics offered by 'illegal' dancers also working in those clubs.

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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    There are still a lot of good paying jobs out there that people are unwilling or unable to do. Mechanics, plumbers, machinist, etc.

    I wanted to get my motorcycle serviced in March (before the summer rush) and had to wait almost 3 weeks to get it into the shop. Was talking to the shop manger and he said they just can't find any good mechanics so their backlog has exploded. Almost $16 / hour starting, as much overtime as you want and great bennies...how do those jobs go unfilled? You're not going to get rich but it's a good job. Fact is there are good jobs in almost all sectors that are unfilled right now with 9% unemployment.

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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    Almost $16 / hour starting, as much overtime as you want and great bennies...how do those jobs go unfilled? You're not going to get rich but it's a good job
    I can't speak for whatever state you live in, but in many states like NY and CA would-be mechanics have to weigh what they would 'gain' from a $16 an hour * 40 * 52 = $ 33,280 pretax ~ $28,000 after tax paycheck versus what they would 'lose' by becoming ineligible for medicaid, rent assistance, utility bill assistance, food stamp assistance, and a host of other social welfare program benefits. In terms of 'equivalent after tax cash value', the mechanic is actually better off working for $10 an hour at a much easier job while retaining eligibility for all of these benefits !!!

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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post


    and before anybody attempts to argue the point that these corporations don't heavily favor democrat politicians ...

    (snip)"Company Name Microsoft Corporation
    Stock Symbol MSFT
    Sector Technology
    Industry Software & Programming
    Total Contribution Dollar Amount $13,274,570 (1999 - Present)
    Average Contribution Dollar Amount $781
    Total Contribution Dollar Amount to Republicans $1,946,302 (15% of total)
    Average Contribution Dollar Amount to Republicans $875
    Total Contribution Dollar Amount to Democrats $5,471,263 (41% of total)
    Average Contribution Dollar Amount to Democrats $827 "(snip)

    from http://www.campaignmoney.com/microsoft.asp
    Your numbers are for all Microsoft employees, not just executives. Microsoft's programmers and engineers would most likely be opposed to increasing the number of H1B visas.

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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    I can't speak for whatever state you live in, but in many states like NY and CA would-be mechanics have to weigh what they would 'gain' from a $16 an hour * 40 * 52 = $ 33,280 pretax ~ $28,000 after tax paycheck versus what they would 'lose' by becoming ineligible for medicaid, rent assistance, utility bill assistance, food stamp assistance, and a host of other social welfare program benefits
    Cost of living is very low here and that $16 is a base starting wage before OT and bonuses. You're right it's sorta on the edge of where making less may be better in the short term but in the long term a mechanic is a job that has a future (higher wages and can't be outsourced).

    There's not a lot of glamor living here but there are jobs. Back in the 70'speople were literally fighting over the chance to move to Alaska and work on the pipeline in the bitter cold living in work camps. What happened to that spirit? People gota move to where the jobs are and get the training for the jobs that actually exist.

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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    Back in the 70'speople were literally fighting over the chance to move to Alaska and work on the pipeline in the bitter cold living in work camps. What happened to that spirit? People gota move to where the jobs are
    The 'gold foil hat' will tell you that, on the subject of relocating to where the jobs are, the inability to sell one's house at a profit compared to the remaining mortgage balance is one inhibiting factor. But so are 99 weeks worth of unemployment benefits, easy eligibility for food stamps and other social welfare benefits etc., as well as the ability to continue living in one's house despite not having made a mortgage payment for months or even years ! If an unemployed / unemploy'able' person can maintain a standard of living that is free of major hardship despite being unemployed, while continuing to live near friends and family, there isn't any strong incentive to relocate.


    You're right it's sorta on the edge of where making less may be better in the short term but in the long term a mechanic is a job that has a future (higher wages and can't be outsourced).
    unfortunately, over the course of a 40 year career arc, that's probably no longer true. Consider what would happen if electric vehicles like the Tesla roadster or Nissan Leaf become a significant percentage of all future vehicles. These replace piston engines with electric motors. These replace mechanical transmissions with electronic power controllers. Thus today's need for a skilled mechanic will essentially be downgraded to tomorrow's need for a 'parts changer' ... with the rare earth electric motors and electronic power controllers being produced in Asia not America.


    Microsoft's programmers and engineers would most likely be opposed to increasing the number of H1B visas.
    I suppose that would depend on A. Microsoft's employees actually understanding that the 'wonderful' company they work for is a major H1B employer sponsor, B. Microsoft's employees also understanding that failure of Microsoft to control labor costs via H1B worker subcontracts could result in offshoring of the US operations that they are presently employed by ( i.e. moving the entire operation to Bangalore or Ireland thus costing US Microsoft employees their jobs), and C. Microsoft's employees understanding that the same politicians who allow H1B visa workers to lower Microsoft's net US labor costs are also the same politicians who allow Microsoft to continue avoiding payment of millions of dollars in US corporate income taxes via 'parking' their software ownership in low tax foreign countries !!! Unlike public sector unionized workers, I give Microsoft's workers credit for understanding that high labor costs >> low / zero profits >> no future US jobs.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-25-2011 at 01:29 AM.

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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    On a related note here are the ten best and ten worst states to find a job :

    The ten worst, in order, are :

    Nevada

    California

    Rhode Island

    Florida

    Mississippi

    Michigan

    Idaho

    Alabama

    Kentucky

    Georgia

    To end on a high note, here are the ten best :

    North Dakota

    New Hampshire

    Nebraska

    South Dakota

    Texas

    Vermont

    Virginia

    Pennsylvania

    Ohio

    and surprisingly Illinois.

    Most, not all, but most of the better states are low tax. Many do not have an income tax. Most, again not all, of the worst states are high tax. California, which is second worst, has the country's highest sales tax AND the highest top marginal income tax rate.

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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ you mean all of these 'republican' supporting corporations ( NOT )

    (snip)"Top 25 US [ H1B plus E3 - sic ] Visa Employers in 2009 for FY2010

    1. Wipro 1,964
    2. Microsoft 1,318
    3. Intel 723
    4. IBM 695
    5. Patni Americas 609
    6. Larsen & Toubro Infotech 602
    7. Ernst & Young 481
    8. Infosys 440
    9. UST Global 344
    10. Deloitte 328
    11. Qualcomm 320
    12. Cisco Systems 308
    13. Accenture 287
    14. KPMG 287
    15. Oracle 272
    16. Polaris Software Lab India 254
    17. Rite Aid 240
    18. Goldman Sachs 236
    19. Deloitte & Touche 235
    20. Cognizant 233
    21. Mphasis 229
    22. Satyam 219
    23. Bloomberg 217
    24. Motorola 213
    25. Google 211

    (snip) from http://e3visa.info/2010/01/10/top-h1...0-inc-e3-visa/


    and before anybody attempts to argue the point that these corporations don't heavily favor democrat politicians ...

    (snip)"Company Name Microsoft Corporation
    Stock Symbol MSFT
    Sector Technology
    Industry Software & Programming
    Total Contribution Dollar Amount $13,274,570 (1999 - Present)
    Average Contribution Dollar Amount $781
    Total Contribution Dollar Amount to Republicans $1,946,302 (15% of total)
    Average Contribution Dollar Amount to Republicans $875
    Total Contribution Dollar Amount to Democrats $5,471,263 (41% of total)
    Average Contribution Dollar Amount to Democrats $827 "(snip)

    from http://www.campaignmoney.com/microsoft.asp

    Republicans are the ones pushing for increases in HB1 Visa workers.

    http://techcrunch.com/2008/04/21/hou...1b-visa-quota/

    Most Republicans don't understand the laws of supply and demand. If you keep bringing in foreign workers at lower wages, that forces Americans to work at lower wages to keep their jobs. This makes the IT field less attractive to college students who'll look into another field that pays more and that won't be outsourced/insourced. This creates a vicious cycle where less college students study the IT professions which leads to shortages in the workforce which brings a call by businesses to bring in more HB1 visa workers, further suppressing existing wages. The vicious cycle ends when American workers refuse to go into the IT professions because of low wages and a lack of job security which in turn leads to Republicans whining about how the U.S. is not graduating enough IT professionals. I seen a story a couple of years ago on CNN about the mass exodus of Americans going into the IT professions because of falling wages and lack of job security. If there is a shortage of IT workers, wages will increase which will create more demand from college students to want to go into that profession.

    You wouldn't bring in a million Indian doctors to the U.S. because that would cause a collapse in the wages of existing doctors and a collapse in future demand for Americans wanting to become doctors. Thus, starting a viscous downward spiral.

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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    I suppose that would depend on A. Microsoft's employees actually understanding that the 'wonderful' company they work for is a major H1B employer sponsor, B. Microsoft's employees also understanding that failure of Microsoft to control labor costs via H1B worker subcontracts could result in offshoring of the US operations that they are presently employed by ( i.e. moving the entire operation to Bangalore or Ireland thus costing US Microsoft employees their jobs), and C. Microsoft's employees understanding that the same politicians who allow H1B visa workers to lower Microsoft's net US labor costs are also the same politicians who allow Microsoft to continue avoiding payment of millions of dollars in US corporate income taxes via 'parking' their software ownership in low tax foreign countries !!! Unlike public sector unionized workers, I give Microsoft's workers credit for understanding that high labor costs >> low / zero profits >> no future US jobs.

    ~
    Yeah, every corporation is going to whine about wanting more cheap labor while they make record profits and have 48 billion in cash like Microsoft does. It's what corporations do. We can't let them blackmail us, we have to make the rules that benefit both the rich, the middle-class, and the country. Corporations will pollute our rivers and our air, and use child labor if we let them. That's what regulations are for.

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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    Corporations will pollute our rivers and our air, and use child labor if we let them. That's what regulations are for.
    ahhh ... if only the 'real world' worked that way. What US regulations forcing US corporations to pay high wage rates for unskilled labor ( minimum / prevailing wage ), forcing US corporations to spend millions to make sure that only 0,01% of pollutants enter US rivers and air etc. also do is provide a strong incentive for US corporations to shut down US operations and replace them with offshore facilities where unskilled labor rates are pocket change, where compliance costs for pollutants is near zero, and where child labor is tolerated. Just ask the former California workers that used to assemble Apple computers ... versus Apple now subcontracting child labor to assemble Apple computers in Asia ... and 'we' are indeed 'letting' Apple do this !

    (snip)"Apple (AAPL) has disclosed that child labor was used in three supplier factories last year to build iPhones, iPods and Macintosh computers. The new report, designed to highlight its strong workplace standards, comes amid greater scrutiny of the working conditions at Apple's suppliers, particularly in Asia. Last year, a worker at Apple's massive Taiwanese supplier Foxconn jumped from his high-rise apartment after being beaten by guards during an investigation into a stolen iPhone prototype. And recently, at another Foxconn factory, this one in China, a Reuters employee was beaten by guards after photographing the facility.

    Apple's report, entitled Supplier Responsibility, found 17 "core violations," including using underage labor and falsifying records(snip)

    See full article from DailyFinance:


    In the final analysis, what strict US regulations have in fact done is permanently eliminate US jobs while at the same time creating more total pollution, and more child labor, than if the stricter US regulations had never been enacted. Of course, this all happens on the opposite side of the world - and receives next to zero attention from mainstream US media ... so very few Americans are even aware it's occurring on the scale that it is.

    By inference, your position would be to require Apple to employ US workers at prevailing wage rates, and to require Apple to spend whatever was necessary to comply with US environmental regulations re the production of circuit boards etc. in the USA. As a result, the probable cost of a new IPad would have to be at least $2,000 in order to absorb the additional costs. As a consequence, sales of IPads would drop to 1/3rd of current levels ... further resulting in 2/3rds of Apple's alternate reality US assembly workers receiving pink slips. And at that point, an alternate reality Chinese built product with a selling price that is 1/3rd of Apple's IPad is able to dominate market share and operating system standards ... relegating Apple as a small volume supplier to the 'rich' ... further resulting in Apple eliminating US support staff in light of the much smaller sales volume. Also, because of reduced sales volume, the alternate universe Apple could no longer afford to finance R&D to develop the next generation of 'superior' product offerings ... eventually resulting in Apple going bankrupt thus eliminating ALL US jobs !


    You can't 'have your cake and eat it too'.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-25-2011 at 03:59 PM.

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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Actually, this principle is proven by Tiffany, Porsche, and a host of other companies that offer expensive upscale goods and services to the 'rich' that are currently experiencing record sales and profits. And while that is good news for a select few workers who are able to be hired by the Tiffany stores and Porsche dealerships, it doesn't do a thing to help the vast majority of sales clerks who wind up working at Penneys or WalMart or the vast majority of car salespersons who wind up working for GM or Kia. The analogy of course is that a select few top shelf dancers ... those who are able to be 'hired' by upscale clubs catering to 'rich' customers ... will remain unaffected, but that the remaining 90%+ of dancers who wind up being 'hired' by neighborhood / downscale clubs will wind up competing with the 'extras' and cut rate tactics offered by 'illegal' dancers also working in those clubs.
    Totally agree with you on this... it's another reason if entertainers are going to do this professionally, & want to be the "Tiffany" versions of entertainers, they MUST invest in themselves & their futures!
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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post

    By inference, your position would be to require Apple to employ US workers at prevailing wage rates, and to require Apple to spend whatever was necessary to comply with US environmental regulations re the production of circuit boards etc. in the USA. As a result, the probable cost of a new IPad would have to be at least $2,000 in order to absorb the additional costs.
    ~
    Again, you're just making things up and pulling numbers out of thin air. You don't have any idea how much an IPad would cost if it were made in the US. Dell manufactures some of their computers in the US, and they're cheaper than Apple computers.

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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ahhh ... if only the 'real world' worked that way. What US regulations forcing US corporations to pay high wage rates for unskilled labor ( minimum / prevailing wage ), forcing US corporations to spend millions to make sure that only 0,01% of pollutants enter US rivers and air etc. also do is provide a strong incentive for US corporations to shut down US operations and replace them with offshore facilities where unskilled labor rates are pocket change, where compliance costs for pollutants is near zero, and where child labor is tolerated. Just ask the former California workers that used to assemble Apple computers ... versus Apple now subcontracting child labor to assemble Apple computers in Asia ... and 'we' are indeed 'letting' Apple do this !

    (snip)"Apple (AAPL) has disclosed that child labor was used in three supplier factories last year to build iPhones, iPods and Macintosh computers. The new report, designed to highlight its strong workplace standards, comes amid greater scrutiny of the working conditions at Apple's suppliers, particularly in Asia. Last year, a worker at Apple's massive Taiwanese supplier Foxconn jumped from his high-rise apartment after being beaten by guards during an investigation into a stolen iPhone prototype. And recently, at another Foxconn factory, this one in China, a Reuters employee was beaten by guards after photographing the facility.

    Apple's report, entitled Supplier Responsibility, found 17 "core violations," including using underage labor and falsifying records(snip)

    See full article from DailyFinance: http://srph.it/dZNPfP


    In the final analysis, what strict US regulations have in fact done is permanently eliminate US jobs while at the same time creating more total pollution, and more child labor, than if the stricter US regulations had never been enacted. Of course, this all happens on the opposite side of the world - and receives next to zero attention from mainstream US media ... so very few Americans are even aware it's occurring on the scale that it is.

    By inference, your position would be to require Apple to employ US workers at prevailing wage rates, and to require Apple to spend whatever was necessary to comply with US environmental regulations re the production of circuit boards etc. in the USA. As a result, the probable cost of a new IPad would have to be at least $2,000 in order to absorb the additional costs. As a consequence, sales of IPads would drop to 1/3rd of current levels ... further resulting in 2/3rds of Apple's alternate reality US assembly workers receiving pink slips. And at that point, an alternate reality Chinese built product with a selling price that is 1/3rd of Apple's IPad is able to dominate market share and operating system standards ... relegating Apple as a small volume supplier to the 'rich' ... further resulting in Apple eliminating US support staff in light of the much smaller sales volume. Also, because of reduced sales volume, the alternate universe Apple could no longer afford to finance R&D to develop the next generation of 'superior' product offerings ... eventually resulting in Apple going bankrupt thus eliminating ALL US jobs !


    You can't 'have your cake and eat it too'.

    ~

    That's why we use to have tariffs, to equalize the playing field. Your solution is to turn our environment into a toxic dump just like in China. No thanks. I'm not for overdoing regulations but if you don't have any, the U.S. will return to the Robber Barron Society with a 2% rich and everyone else in grinding poverty dying of various cancers, industrial accidents. I don't know why some Republicans want to return to that hell we spent 100 years working our way out of.

    Too many Republicans are stuck in an Ayn Rand/Milton Friedman fantasy world. They want to race to the bottom with the Third World. They're not happy until everyone is making 25 cents an hour and living in cardboard boxes. No thanks.

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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    That's why we use to have tariffs, to equalize the playing field
    In terms of economics, there is nothing 'equal' about tariffs. I'll cite as an example the recently enacted US tariff against Chinese tires that was enacted at the behest of the US tire manufacturers last september. Yes this did allow the US tire manufacturers to sell some additional tires ( which helped the US union workers ). But it also raised the lowest available 'bargain basement' price for imported tires by a significant percentage - which basically hurt the 'poorest' Americans. And ironically it hurt US tire manufacturer investors / stockholders ( because sales / profits from tires produced in overseas plants owned by the US tire manufacturers were reduced ).

    Like it or not, we now live in a global economy. And like it or not, the 'minimum acceptable' US standard of living is made possible by exploiting low cost foreign labor, low cost foreign environmental pollution, low cost foreign worker safety etc. If tariffs were enacted on every imported product from tires to food to clothing to 'you name it' in order to increase the US retail price of these imported products to the same level necessary for US manufacturers to produce the same product under US laws and still earn a profit, the standard of living of the US 'poor' would quickly fall to third world levels.

    As I posted earlier, you 'can't have your cake and eat it too' !

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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    We can have our cake and eat it too. 40-50 Years ago, most of the products Americans bought were made in the US, and there was no negative impact on our standard of living.

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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    ^^^ and we can go back to a world economy situation where American products dominate world markets for durable goods / autos / you name it ... if we repeat the events of 60 years ago that made it possible ...

    - bomb every major factory in western Europe / Japan / China etc. back into rubble as was done in world war 2

    - kill off 50 million or so reasonably well educated and otherwise productive foreign people between the ages of 18 and 35 as was also done in world war 2

    The point of course is that the 1950's / 1960's US economy was heavily dependent on saddling foreigners with a reduced standard of living. This is essentially the same situation today re China / Asia / Eastern Europe / South America is concerned, in terms of their standard of living. What IS different in terms of the US standard of living was that in the 50's / 60's America really had the only intact manufacturing infrastructure and the only relatively intact pool of young and productive skilled workers, whereas today the manufacturing infrastructure and skilled labor pools of many other countries rivals or exceeds that of the US. Thus 50's / 60's US standard of living was based on 'value creation' plus the ability to dictate wholesale prices for US exported goods ... i.e. if a foreign country wanted to buy tractors they had to pay what the US was charging or hitch up a horse drawn plow - ( or cut a 'deal' with the Russians for a takeover of their government ! ). Also the 50's / 60's US standard of living was based on bargain basement level, pre-environmental compliance, energy costs ( which is a whole 'nuther discussion )!

    However, today's US standard of living is based on the spending of borrowed money in conjunction with the availability of low cost imports which do not include cost components for US 'prevailing wage' labor, mandatory worker benefits, strict worker safety compliance, strict environmental compliance, US corporate taxes, US product liability costs etc. If the ability to continue borrowing and spending is cut off ( thus limiting US gov'ts and consumers to spending no more than they are earning / receiving in revenues ), and if the price of imported goods is increased via tariffs to 'break even' pricing levels versus US made products ( which must incorporate all of the US regulatory costs listed above in addition to the raw material / 'input' costs ), stand by for torches and pitchforks !!!

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-26-2011 at 11:47 AM.

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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    You can't be serious thinking that we should allow a lower standard of living because China does. I don't want to live in an evil country like China, I certainly don't want to live like them. Personally I couldn't care less how they live, I am only concerned with how Americans live, which is not good.

    And no if we put tariffs on products it doesn't hurt the poor. That is complete bs. What happens is many of those poor people actually find jobs. Contrary to what many think, most poor people want to work, they don't want to live off welfare.

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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    And no if we put tariffs on products it doesn't hurt the poor. That is complete bs. What happens is many of those poor people actually find jobs.
    Forgive me for being skeptical, but the math simply doesn't work. Even at $12 an hour = $25,000 a year pretax = $ 23,000 a year after SSI / medicare, you're talking about a monthly budget of under $2,000. If tariffs were applied to imported food products today's monthly food budget would grow from $400 to $600, causing a 10% reduction in standard of living versus the $2000 monthly budget on that basis alone. Now throw in a set of tires costing $300 instead of $200, a pair of jeans costing $40 instead of $25, an LCD TV costing $800 instead of $400 etc. Hopefully the point is becoming fairly obvious even if the tariff induced price increases aren't this extreme. If memory serves, the Chinese tire tariff was 35% ... and the CBO calculated a figure of 27% as average 'break even' level over a wide range of Chinese exports for a proposed wall to wall Chinese tariff bill that was never passed ! Even so, the price increases that would result from such tariffs are very significant !!!

    But more to the point of this thread, the price increases that would result from such tariffs would disproportionately affect those Americans who are economically forced to seek out the lowest available cost options for food, clothing and manufactured goods ... while having very little effect on those Americans whose budgets already allow them to purchase organic foods, designer clothing and upscale manufactured goods.


    You can't be serious thinking that we should allow a lower standard of living because China does
    The only way that America doesn't 'allow' the US standard of living to drop is by the gov't borrowing / printing dollars and in turn transferring that money into the US economy in the form of personal and corporate subsidies. This is NOT sustainable, pure and simple. Once the bond vigilantes catch up with the US dollar / US treasury bonds, America's SUSTAINABLE standard of living will have to be based on the amount of 'value' that Americans are actually capable of creating. Speaking facetiously this should provide a very good opportunity for US manufacturers of torches and pitchforks !!!

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-26-2011 at 12:16 PM.

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    Default Re: BLS report - 'Jobs of Tomorrow'

    most poor people want to work, they don't want to live off welfare
    Some interesting statistics ... from

    (snip)"A recent piece in The Wall Street Journal noted that “Unintended pregnancies likely cost the federal and state governments more than $11 billion a year,” based on research published by the Brookings Institution.

    A major reason for the cost to government, notes the author, is that “women who unintentionally get pregnant are more likely to be low-income” and thus “are more likely to be eligible for government-financed medical care.” The Brookings report also notes that the majority (57 percent) of these births are to women who are unmarried: one of the greatest predictors of child poverty in the United States today. The strong link between unwed childbearing and poverty creates little wonder that the majority of births to unmarried women are financed by Medicaid.

    However, the costs don’t stop at birth. In fact, it’s only the beginning. As Heritage Foundation analyst Robert Rector asserts, “Once the taxpayer has paid for the childbirth, aid to the [low-income, single] mother and child will generally continue through a wide variety of programs for years to come.”

    In fact, roughly 75 percent of all families on welfare are single-parent families. With the number of unwed births skyrocketing over the last five decades (more than 40 percent of births in the United States today are to single moms), the cost of federal welfare has mushroomed. Currently, Washington operates more than 70 welfare programs at a cost edging toward $1 trillion annually.

    Yet poverty and government dependence aren’t the only problems connected to single-parent families. Children raised without fathers are at greater risk for a host of negative outcomes, such as poorer social and emotional behavior, delinquency, and lower academic outcomes.(snip)

    The growing rate of unwed childbearing is putting more families at risk for poverty, welfare dependence, and a host of other ill outcomes, leading to increased welfare spending and debt for the nation."(snip)


    The 'gold foil hat' crowd would undoubtedly point out that, with the widespread availability of 'free' birth control, the fact that more than 40 percent of all US births now involve single moms cannot be 'accidental' from a statistical standpoint. Instead, it's arguable that 'having babies and collecting welfare' is an increasingly popular career path !


    Returning to the original thread topic, it is a circular argument that 'poor people want to work'. Where unskilled single moms are concerned at least, there is no way that an $8-10 an hour unskilled job is going to be able to provide an actual standard of living that is equal to the de-facto standard of living that gov't social welfare benefits currently provide. So even if they really do want to work, gov't social welfare benefit eligibility rules provide a huge dis-incentive to actually doing so.
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-26-2011 at 04:00 PM.

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