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Thread: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

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    Default Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

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    (snip)"The United States Population has the largest percentage of foreign born since 1920, including 10.8 million illegal immigrants and the Supreme Court is taking 'em on. SCOTUS just ruled the lower courts must re-examine their ruling on Hazelton Pennsylvania's laws to verify renters and workers are there legally. This basically voids the earlier ruling against the city of Hazelton

    The US Supreme Court on Monday ordered a federal appeals court to reexamine whether Hazleton, Pa., can restrict illegal immigrants' ability to work and rent housing.

    A federal judge and a panel of the Third US Circuit Court of Appeals in Philadelphia had blocked the local laws, saying they clash with the careful balance struck by Congress in federal immigration statutes.

    On Monday, the Supreme Court, in a summary order, vacated the Third Circuit’s September 2010 decision and remanded the case for further consideration in light of the high court’s May 26 opinion upholding a similar law in Arizona that punishes companies that employ illegal immigrants.


    Earlier the Supreme court ruled in Arizona's favor, they can punish employers who use illegal labor.

    The above graph is from the Congressional Budget Office and shows the total foreign born for each state. This includes permanent residents, foreign guest workers, U.S. citizens and illegal aliens. The CBO has a new report analysis on the foreign born in the United States. The results are shocking. California's population is 26.6% foreign born. New York is over 21.5% and New Jersey, 21.3%. This is the largest percentage of foreign born since 1920 in the U.S.

    The Department of Homeland Security estimates there are 10.8 million illegal immigrants in the United States, or roughly 4% of the total U.S. population. . Additionally they are concentrated in just a few states, California, Texas, Arizona and Nevada.





    In 2009, unauthorized residents made up about 10 percent of the population of Nevada and about 7 percent of the population of California, Texas, and Arizona. Almost half of all unauthorized residents lived in those four states.

    Read it and weep people who like to claim any discussion of this is racist. 62% of illegal immigrants are from Mexico.





    Of the foreign born, 29% have less than a high school education with 56% of those coming from Mexico and Central America having less than high school. The numbers appear to be skewed from other countries, for unfortunately they are counting the European and Asian Masters degree equivalent to a U.S. Masters degree. It's not, the credit hours are more equal to a U.S. Bachelors degree and the Asian and European Bachelors degree is more like trade school, or an associates degree. Unfortunately the U.S. education system, due to a never ending supply of cheap students and high tuition, has devalued the U.S. degrees in order to make these other nations more than happy to supply a never ending stream of foreign students. Literally American universities are not making college more affordable for Americans, instead, we have a new industry recruiting foreign students. (snip)

    (snip)"While the focus is on illegals for instate tuition, consider the percentages of foreigners in our higher education system. Where is the outrage for not putting all Americans first for educational opportunities in the United States, foreign born, legal or not? The reality is more and more Americans cannot even get into college or if they can, they assuredly cannot afford it. Bear in mind public higher education is taxpayer subsidized.

    Remember that concept of workplace diversity? It appears from these 2009 statistics, the U.S. labor force is more stratified than ever. Certain occupations are dominated by illegals and others with H-1B Indian workers. In some occupations, there are more foreign born working in them than Americans. Additionally some occupations have country of origin specific dominance. Clearly certain occupations have been targeted for labor arbitrage by manipulation of U.S. immigration, in order to flood the labor market in those sectors. Yes Virginia, whether one has a PhD or no high school at all, the laws of supply and demand in labor markets still apply. Too many workers available for a job, wages will decline and worker displacement will shoot up.





    Literally the foreign born employed in technical fields is greater than Americans. This is not due to Americans being unskilled or any shortage. Age discrimination in this occupation is extreme, often starting at age 35. Sex discrimination is horrific, with 52% of women in these fields dropping out of their careers in 10 years. This is due to the never ending use of foreign guest worker Visas and our university system. That all would be good if H-1B, L-1 and other manipulations of the U.S. immigration system didn't enable U.S. worker displacement and global labor arbitrage.

    Another shocking statistic is those living in poverty. While 14% of Americans live in poverty, 25% of the foreign born, who are not U.S. citizens, live in poverty. Those who obtain citizenship are the lowest poverty rate group, 11%.

    While various special interest groups try to spin immigration topics, especially when it comes to labor markets and arbitrage, these estimates from the CBO and DHS look fairly solid and also imply the United States labor markets are literally saturated. (snip)


    With many thanks to Robert Oak at The Economic Populist

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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    This is scary. If things aren't fixed eventually the USA will be a country full of illegals and Indians on visas. Unfortunately many of the immigrants such as India are coming from societies that don't value women and we will see more discrimination.

    Ha I wrote Indiana instead of India. I will go on record and state I actively dislike these Indians coming here to steal jobs. I hate them to begin with from life (and from dancing) but the idea of more of them makes my skin crawl.

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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    Even if we kick out all the legal/illegal immigrants, we still will have people coming up with excuses for their messed up lives. You have to work hard to make your life better, not bitch hard.

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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Brigham View Post
    Even if we kick out all the legal/illegal immigrants, we still will have people coming up with excuses for their messed up lives. You have to work hard to make your life better, not bitch hard.
    Except that many people worked hard to see their job disappear. To be honest I am more concerned about the visa holders coming here than illegals because illegals take low paying jobs whereas visa holders take college educated jobs.

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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    Except that many people worked hard to see their job disappear. To be honest I am more concerned about the visa holders coming here than illegals because illegals take low paying jobs whereas visa holders take college educated jobs.
    So you think brown skinned immigrants should only take low paying jobs? High paying jobs (as you call it college educated) should be reserved for white skinned immigrants?

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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Brigham View Post
    So you think brown skinned immigrants should only take low paying jobs? High paying jobs (as you call it college educated) should be reserved for white skinned immigrants?
    These people with the visas aren't immigrants at all and no they shouldn't be taking jobs over Americans. It has nothing to do with race. We should not be allowing people to come here on visas and take jobs that Americans can do.

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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    I worked in a foreign country once. I think it was illegal but I don't really know.
    When you work for gangsters you don't need to know. I like immigrants, legal, illegal, doesn't matter to me.

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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    We should not be allowing people to come here on visas and take jobs that Americans can do
    The 'flip side' argument is that if the US gov't were to stop allowing college educated foreign workers to work in America on H1B visa at pay rates that are some $15-20k a year less than the pay rates typically demanded by US college educated workers, that the US employers would eventually move some of those operations overseas as well ... resulting in lost US tax revenues in addition to lost US jobs.

    The 'counter-intuitive' argument is that certain gov't program costs ( like medicaid / medicare ) are based on the gov't dictating a reimbursement rate for particular services performed. It is then left up to the service providers to find a way to remain in business while receiving said low reimbursement rate ... which is suffiient to cover lower H1B medical worker pay rates but not sufficient to cover pay rates typically demanded by US medical workers. In other words, the gov't has just as big a 'stake' in lower paid H1B professional workers as private industry.

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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    It's not true that Indians don't value women. I hope that we are both tallking about people from India. India is a very pro Western country. They will adapt.

    Muslim immigrants are the hardest for to be able to adapt to any Western country.

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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    The 'flip side' argument is that if the US gov't were to stop allowing college educated foreign workers to work in America on H1B visa at pay rates that are some $15-20k a year less than the pay rates typically demanded by US college educated workers, that the US employers would eventually move some of those operations overseas as well ... resulting in lost US tax revenues in addition to lost US jobs.

    The 'counter-intuitive' argument is that certain gov't program costs ( like medicaid / medicare ) are based on the gov't dictating a reimbursement rate for particular services performed. It is then left up to the service providers to find a way to remain in business while receiving said low reimbursement rate ... which is suffiient to cover lower H1B medical worker pay rates but not sufficient to cover pay rates typically demanded by US medical workers. In other words, the gov't has just as big a 'stake' in lower paid H1B professional workers as private industry.
    Then why not pay employees the same they are paying these workers. I call bs that these employers would send the job overseas since many of these jobs are ones that can't be outsourced, like nurses and college professors. No, it's just a way for employers to be cheap.

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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    Then why not pay employees the same they are paying these workers
    ... because the gov't reimbursement rates aren't sufficiently high to cover the additional cost of a college educated US doctor / nurse versus an H1B foreign educated doctor / nurse who is willing to work for far less money !!! This is also the reason that many private practice US doctors etc. are dropping treatment of medicare / medicaid patients, because the gov't reimbursement rate doesn't allow the doctors to recover the actual costs of their malpractice insurance, student loans, salaries for US nurses and staff etc. However, if and when Obamacare 'public option' health insurance becomes the dominant health care payer in 2014, these private practice US doctors and nurses may find themselves forced to accept a major cut in earnings as they will have no choice but to either accept gov't reimbursement rates or close up the office for lack of enough self-pay patients to cover the actual operating costs + malpractice insurance premiums + student loan payments + nurse / staff salaries !

    it's just a way for employers to be cheap
    Flip side argument is that it's a way that allows the US 'employer' to stay in business versus foreign competition. Essentially, the issue is the same as above ... the 'lowest cost' option available to American customers ( i.e. foreign imports with low embedded labor costs ) limits the ability of US companies to pay 'above world market' prices for labor requiring that they charge a higher price for their products.

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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    If we had more jobs available here, it wouldn't matter so much. Instead, we provide no incentive to keep jobs in the US while letting non-citizens come here to get work.

    Those of you who see this as a problem are absolutely correct. A remodeling of the corporate tax to provide tax breaks based on wages paid to US citizens would raise wages and decrease outsourcing. There's extensive writing about it as this site: http://bit.ly/ebbIfn

    While stripping is a tough job to outsource, US SCs could certainly benefit from more workers in the US having jobs that paid well.

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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    While stripping is a tough job to outsource,
    For better or worse, until this weeks OTHER US Supreme Court decision, it was comparatively easy to 'insource' illegal alien dancers to work in US clubs. This arguably led to the stereotypical gorgeous but illegal eastern european / Mexican dancers who had some trouble providing customers with conversation but no trouble whatsoever providing customers with 'extras' ( and all to often at bargain prices to boot ).

    However, as discussed in another thread, the OTHER US Supreme Court decision allows state and local gov'ts to yank the business license of any US business found to be 'employing' illegal 'workers'. This unfortunately leads to a scenario where a routine club bust discovers a couple of illegal alien dancers working in a club escalates into the city fathers revoking the club's business license thus putting both the illegal alien dancers AND the legal US citizen dancers out of work !!!

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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    These people with the visas aren't immigrants at all and no they shouldn't be taking jobs over Americans. It has nothing to do with race. We should not be allowing people to come here on visas and take jobs that Americans can do.
    People with the visa are not immigrants?

    So people without visas (US Citizens) are immigrants?

    I am afraid, you are not making any sense.

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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Soth View Post
    If we had more jobs available here, it wouldn't matter so much. Instead, we provide no incentive to keep jobs in the US while letting non-citizens come here to get work.

    Those of you who see this as a problem are absolutely correct. A remodeling of the corporate tax to provide tax breaks based on wages paid to US citizens would raise wages and decrease outsourcing. There's extensive writing about it as this site:

    While stripping is a tough job to outsource, US SCs could certainly benefit from more workers in the US having jobs that paid well.
    What is causing real problem is manufacturing jobs being shipped to China. This is slowly dismantling the purchasing power parity of American populace.

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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Brigham View Post
    People with the visa are not immigrants?

    So people without visas (US Citizens) are immigrants?

    I am afraid, you are not making any sense.
    You aren't making any sense because no these people aren't immigrants. Immigrants are people who intend to live in another country forever. These people live here a year or two, then move back usually.

    Brigham go back to searching for a stripper wife and leave the adults alone.

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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    You aren't making any sense because no these people aren't immigrants. Immigrants are people who intend to live in another country forever. These people live here a year or two, then move back usually.

    Brigham go back to searching for a stripper wife and leave the adults alone.
    I think you are talking about expatriates. OK, they do back. And, if they do back then how are they harming anything? After their services are no longer needed, they go back. Every body is happy. So why such a grief?

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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Brigham View Post
    People with the visa are not immigrants?

    There are tourist Visas and Work Visas. These are not about Immigration. Typically the Visa Holder must return to their home country and re-apply for a Visa upon expiration.

    Visas typically do not count toward becoming a Citizen.

    Atleast a third of the IT department on the site I work at are H1B visas from India.

    Another disturbing trend are the IT remote tele commuters. The are still in India while doing It work for the company working for even less than the H1B Visa holders.

    I wouldn't even doubt that there are huge Legal loopholes that this International Tech company exploits since these are still not on payroll.

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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    We live in a global economy. Where everybody buys (and hires) from everybody. If US government will start preventing American companies from buying Indian goods/services then Indian government will start preventing Indian companies from buying American goods/services. There is a lot of ignorance about India in USA. For example, a lot of noises are being made about American companies hiring workers (the so called call center) in India but people fail to realize that India buys goods/services from the US which ranges in the amount of billions far exceeding anything American companies spend on call center workers. Not too long ago Obama persuaded Indian government to facilitate sale of American goods in the amount of $16 billion dollars. That order alone created 56 thousand jobs in USA.

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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Brigham View Post
    What is causing real problem is manufacturing jobs being shipped to China. This is slowly dismantling the purchasing power parity of American populace.
    That is an issue addressed in the blog I linked.
    It's not just manufacturing jobs. All of the jobs being outsourced decrease the purchasing power of Americans. Technical jobs are also outsourced. Any work done on a computer here can also be done on a computer elsewhere. I know. This affects my job.
    Thus, the primary reason the economy is now down. If people don't have jobs here and can't afford to buy stuff, the economy will suck.
    When politicians say lower taxes and reduce regulations on business to create jobs, the only thing that will do is allow business to pay workers less here and treat them worse so as to make the US competitive with countries that are poor and have bad conditions. That's not the tactic we should be using.

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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Soth View Post
    That is an issue addressed in the blog I linked.
    It's not just manufacturing jobs. All of the jobs being outsourced decrease the purchasing power of Americans. Technical jobs are also outsourced. Any work done on a computer here can also be done on a computer elsewhere. I know. This affects my job.
    Thus, the primary reason the economy is now down. If people don't have jobs here and can't afford to buy stuff, the economy will suck.
    When politicians say lower taxes and reduce regulations on business to create jobs, the only thing that will do is allow business to pay workers less here and treat them worse so as to make the US competitive with countries that are poor and have bad conditions. That's not the tactic we should be using.
    What kind of computer work do you do? The reason I ask so I could give you an answer tailored to what you can relate to.

    No matter how much bitching we do about Indians (or Visa Workers borrowing from KellyDancer), they are here to stay. There is a very good reason for that. They are needed. If they go, many industries will collapse, for sure. And, I am not talking about IT industries.

    To address the paranoia, no American company will hire an Indian if they could find a qualified Americans to do the job. Companies choose the best talent they can find to stay in the game not because they love visa workers. There is a serious disproportion between our industrial output and skilled worker input. Only way to remedy this is to bring in talents from overseas.

    Have you ever worked for a high tech company which was in the business of selling controlled technologies?

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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Brigham View Post
    Have you ever worked for a high tech company which was in the business of selling controlled technologies?
    Yes, actually I do. One that needs permissions from the Department of Commerce, and the Department of State just for potential visitors to come to the facility. if they are on a list no entry or 100% escorted. Interestingly not just longtime adversarial despotic regimes are on this list but, NATO allies as well.

    Doesn't stop them from granting access to the secure data centers to the H1B visa holders from India from the IT department. Ugh.

    In 1,2,3 order, the originators of corporate espionage targeting emerging technologies........ China, Russia, and India.

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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    Well we seized Arizona, New Mexico, California, parts of Colorado, and Nevada from Mexico in a trumped up war in 1848. Now Mexicans are getting it back. Read your history about President Polk, the Matamoras incident ,and the desire for increasing the number of slave holding states (pre Civil War).

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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    Quote Originally Posted by hsarge View Post
    Well we seized Arizona, New Mexico, California, parts of Colorado, and Nevada from Mexico in a trumped up war in 1848. Now Mexicans are getting it back. Read your history about President Polk, the Matamoras incident ,and the desire for increasing the number of slave holding states (pre Civil War).
    It's a sorry and tired argument. There isn't a Nation on this Earth that didn't kill the former inhabitants to create itself.

    How far should apologies and reparations go back? Aboriginal Americans? Maybe we should beg forgiveness from Neanderthals, after they make amends with Austrolepithecines?

    Funny but I don't think they were Mexicans for all that long before the Spaniards arrived.

    Maybe Spain could apologize to the Toltecs and the Mayans so we can keep things in order first. Would not want to diminish anyones suffering by skipping over them.



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    Default Re: Another US Supreme Court Decision with interesting new stats / implications ...

    Mexicans speak Spanish but are not Spanish. And Hitler said the same thing about the Poles when he rolled over them in 1939. At least the Mexicans are taking the land back peacefully.

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