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Thread: Camming and God (or another deity)

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    I like the Scriptures, have a book of quotes, they're very applicable, ex.: "Lord teach me to profit, & lead me in the way I should go" Isa. 48:17


    MANY MEN WANTED TO LAY ME DOWN, BUT FEW WANTED TO LIFT ME UP

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  3. #27
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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    I believe in God. I was raised in a strict Christian household (my mum is a church leader) and I went to a Christian school. I used to be incredibly religious but now I have a much more free view of God. I read a book called Velvet Elvis by Rob Bell and it completely released me from the dogma and "religion" of it all.

    I think God or whatever deity you believe in just loves us really and regardless of what we are doing they care for us and want us to have a good life. If not then there's always the death bed repentance

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    Veteran Member catgirl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    i am agnostic- and atheist, maybe a little more agnostic
    i believe in science,
    i think religion is an excuse for people to be okay with death, and where we come from
    and even now, it is abused for power, and people use it to manipulate others,
    if you look at history- every war was started on religion,
    anyways, that is just me..
    not trying to offend anyone, i just like it when people try to open my mind up to different things
    my parents were jehovah's witnesses, but i wasn't,
    i definately believe in ghosts,
    i've seen them a lot,
    and even in reincarnation-
    but who knows, really?
    i think if there was a god why would he let us screw up this planet so much?
    sorrry, not to get into things.....

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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    You raise some interesting points catgirl. I have never been sure of ghosts but I think if I believed in ghosts I would have to concede there was some higher power at work because how can we have souls if we simply evolved from bacteria or whatever we were? Ghosts are spirits and what made souls and spirits if not a higher being? Where else would a soul come from? Science can find no tangible evidence of the human soul so if it is not made out of any particles, but truly exists what made it? It defies all logic so some supernatural creator must be at work?

    Sorry for the deepness. I swear I am not stoned lol. I watched Eat, Pray, Love today and I have been thinking way too much about spirituality since!

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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    The way you were raised is generally the way you tend to believe. If you were raised to worship trees, then you would worship trees...
    Unless for whatever reason, you didn't agree with your parent(s) and switched religions or just believe whatever you believe.

    I believe in God and what I do from a personal experiences, I don't follow these "rules" of man that say you are supposed to do this or that.

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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    Quote Originally Posted by catgirl View Post
    i am agnostic- and atheist, maybe a little more agnostic
    i believe in science,
    i think religion is an excuse for people to be okay with death, and where we come from
    and even now, it is abused for power, and people use it to manipulate others,
    if you look at history- every war was started on religion,
    anyways, that is just me..
    not trying to offend anyone, i just like it when people try to open my mind up to different things
    my parents were jehovah's witnesses, but i wasn't,
    i definately believe in ghosts,
    i've seen them a lot,
    and even in reincarnation-
    but who knows, really?
    i think if there was a god why would he let us screw up this planet so much?
    sorrry, not to get into things.....
    The answer is: we will never know the answer.
    Some people think you get the answer when you die, but the reality is that it is ALL faith-based to believe in something greater than yourself.

    One might say that you seeing ghosts means you are crazy, and certain religions would say you were "blessed" or "cursed" because of it. It is all relative. No one is right and in the end, I guess we will all know...one way or another.

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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    Although I relate to Christianity- I do not consider myself to be part of any churches or denominations. I do believe in a higher spiritual power.. because I (personally) have feelings around, and within me, to convince myself of that. I understand atheists, agnostics, and understand the power of religion and the effects it has on people. This is why I try to stay away from all practicing religions. I think worship is not necessary, and following a book that was written by God interpreted through man is kind of peculiar. I feel like I just have to work towards relating to nature and people.. feel things and people for what and who they are.. is key. Religions separate people. I feel like our spirits/souls/inner feelings are what guides us in life, .. and when we aren't tapped deeply enough into ourselves and our feelings- and start letting others tell us how we are supposed to think, feel, act, live.. then we lose our ability to learn about ourselves and others, and ultimately the ability to love and understand all.

    Nobody is omniscient- and it boggles my mind to wonder why we have to create problems that shouldn't even exist or be worried about.
    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
    Hunter S. Thompson



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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    I was raised Roman Catholic but it ddn't work for me. I am agnostic, but I think there is something to be said for acknowledging things that science have yet to explain.

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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    What purpose would God have for creating evil? For if there is an all-powerful deity, then evil must be acceptable to Him/Her/It, or it would eradicate it.

    That being said, men are born wanting to see us naked more than anything else. I mean EVERY man who is not gay, pretty much desires almost every moment to see us naked, masturbating, doing lesbo stuff, etc. and whatever runs the universe saw fit to give them hard-ons and make them consistently think about it and be willing to give up almost anything for it. Our Vagina is the ultimate prize for most men and almost everything they do is related to making us want to give it to them.

    Why would God do this if he thought sex was dirty and only for marriage? Why would he not make us have "heat" like a dog does, where the male has no real interest until her juices flow and she is ready to ovulate? Why do humans ALWAYS want sex? What purpose did God have for making things that way? For making us understand that sex if great when it purely for pleasure, and why are we wired so our greatest pleasure comes from a "sin"?

    If you believe that camming and escorting and sex work and so on are wrong, or that God doesn't approve, I hope you have airtight answers to those questions up there. Because everything I have seen exhibits that God, if he/she/it exists, is all about sex...Lots and lots of hot, steamy, drippy, messy, pleasure-filled, un-inhibited kinky sex, or we would not naturally be so perverse and sexual and constantly desirous.

    I am VERY agnostic myself, lean toward atheist, but if there is a God, one needs to ignore the books written by men and look at the evidence around them.

    B

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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    Evidence is relative too...it can be interpreted as whatever people want it to be, that's why scientists can't really propose Laws, they propose theories...a law in science can't be changed...but theories can always be reexamined....such as Law of gravity and Theory of relativity.

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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bambalina View Post
    What purpose would God have for creating evil? For if there is an all-powerful deity, then evil must be acceptable to Him/Her/It, or it would eradicate it.

    That being said, men are born wanting to see us naked more than anything else. I mean EVERY man who is not gay, pretty much desires almost every moment to see us naked, masturbating, doing lesbo stuff, etc. and whatever runs the universe saw fit to give them hard-ons and make them consistently think about it and be willing to give up almost anything for it. Our Vagina is the ultimate prize for most men and almost everything they do is related to making us want to give it to them.

    Why would God do this if he thought sex was dirty and only for marriage? Why would he not make us have "heat" like a dog does, where the male has no real interest until her juices flow and she is ready to ovulate? Why do humans ALWAYS want sex? What purpose did God have for making things that way? For making us understand that sex if great when it purely for pleasure, and why are we wired so our greatest pleasure comes from a "sin"?

    If you believe that camming and escorting and sex work and so on are wrong, or that God doesn't approve, I hope you have airtight answers to those questions up there. Because everything I have seen exhibits that God, if he/she/it exists, is all about sex...Lots and lots of hot, steamy, drippy, messy, pleasure-filled, un-inhibited kinky sex, or we would not naturally be so perverse and sexual and constantly desirous.

    I am VERY agnostic myself, lean toward atheist, but if there is a God, one needs to ignore the books written by men and look at the evidence around them.

    B
    Every "religion" has a good and bad force, just like everything in life and in science...everything has a reaction.

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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amy Lee View Post
    Every "religion" has a good and bad force, just like everything in life and in science...everything has a reaction.
    But in the Abrahamic religions (Christian, Judaism, and Muslim) there is one God who knows all and created all, who is all powerful. Therefor in those religions, Evil must be desirable, since an all poweful God could make it "be not" if HE so chose. On top of which, when the Christian God created Lucifer, HE knew (that is what ALL KNOWING means) that Lucifer would fall and become Satan/The Devil and would do all sorts of horrendous shit to humans for all eternity, and yet God created Lucifer anyway, and since Christian God is ALSO perfect, then creating Lucifer and bringing evil and hell into the world was part of God's plan. Right? Since if it wasn't his plan, it would be a mistake.

    I love religion (from afar), because it is a study in contradictions, and in the human capacity for belief. Also, it is interesting to me how these lovely ladies might worry about their behavior displeasing God, When those in the US and UK have people killing other people in their name Daily for years on end, and that is somehow less worrying. It s like the constant violence on TV with no real comment, yet the country goes into an uproar because Janet Jackson's pretty titty is mostly exposed for like 2 seconds. I hear religious parents say their child could be "Scarred for Life" by seeing Janet Jackson's interesting nipple/jewelery.

    So overall, while I'm pretty sure that any concept we hold of God, doesn't exist, and that any "God" that does exist is so unlike what we try to dream up as to be unrecognizable and useless to try and worship (a supreme being WANTS to be worshipped?) it and especially to understand something that would, lets face it, be so far superior in intelligence to us as to make understanding it's reason and motives completely impossible. To put human trash like jealousy and Sex is a Sin and crap like that on it is insulting.

    I say, don;t sweat it, God gave you pretty bodies and you ability to woo men and so on for a reason, and in essence, you cannot do anything that is not God's Will. An all-powerful deity would not have any reason to allow you to go against his will. So Cam, have fun, be nice to others, and it'll all work out in the end.

    B

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    Veteran Member BlankStare's Avatar
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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bambalina View Post
    But in the Abrahamic religions (Christian, Judaism, and Muslim) there is one God who knows all and created all, who is all powerful. Therefor in those religions, Evil must be desirable, since an all poweful God could make it "be not" if HE so chose. On top of which, when the Christian God created Lucifer, HE knew (that is what ALL KNOWING means) that Lucifer would fall and become Satan/The Devil and would do all sorts of horrendous shit to humans for all eternity, and yet God created Lucifer anyway, and since Christian God is ALSO perfect, then creating Lucifer and bringing evil and hell into the world was part of God's plan. Right? Since if it wasn't his plan, it would be a mistake.

    I love religion (from afar), because it is a study in contradictions, and in the human capacity for belief. Also, it is interesting to me how these lovely ladies might worry about their behavior displeasing God, When those in the US and UK have people killing other people in their name Daily for years on end, and that is somehow less worrying. It s like the constant violence on TV with no real comment, yet the country goes into an uproar because Janet Jackson's pretty titty is mostly exposed for like 2 seconds. I hear religious parents say their child could be "Scarred for Life" by seeing Janet Jackson's interesting nipple/jewelery.

    So overall, while I'm pretty sure that any concept we hold of God, doesn't exist, and that any "God" that does exist is so unlike what we try to dream up as to be unrecognizable and useless to try and worship (a supreme being WANTS to be worshipped?) it and especially to understand something that would, lets face it, be so far superior in intelligence to us as to make understanding it's reason and motives completely impossible. To put human trash like jealousy and Sex is a Sin and crap like that on it is insulting.

    I say, don;t sweat it, God gave you pretty bodies and you ability to woo men and so on for a reason, and in essence, you cannot do anything that is not God's Will. An all-powerful deity would not have any reason to allow you to go against his will. So Cam, have fun, be nice to others, and it'll all work out in the end.

    B
    To simplify the reason for God allowing evil to happen in the world... let's look at The Bible's story of Adam and Eve (side note.. check out the story of Adamu in the Sumerian people- very similar). God gave Adam and Eve the choice to choose good or evil.. (there is only one choice you have in life according to Christianity.. that is either to follow God or not follow God..) Adam and Eve disobeyed God's word, and this was the CHOICE of Adam and Eve.. beings Adam and Eve were the first people to be, and they chose to eat the apple from the tree of knowledge clearly disobeying the word of God and therefore creating Sin.. and also ruining our otherwise perfect relationship with God... to answer your question why God would allow evil- it is because God wanted us to choose Him. God allowed us a choice.

    God cannot intervene supernaturally in order to stop us from ourselves.. then there would be no consequences for Good or Evil. This is also outlined in the Old and New Testament.

    But to simplify it even more- Religion is a bunch of politics. If you haven't felt the presence of a spiritual being within YOURSELF.. instead of letting someone TELL you "He's There , He's There".. then really, you have only succumbed to another's belief instead of going out and finding YOUR OWN God/Spirit/Caretaker that is within YOU. The powers that be do not want you to know yourself that well. They don't want you to be spiritually tapped into yourself.. this is why they created a manual on how to live, how to think, how to be.


    In conclusion- You want to live by God? You want to live a good life? Respect ALL living THINGS. The trees, animals, water.. were all there BEFORE us, and will continue to exist AFTER us. Animals and plants are our first teachers. They taught us how to survive and evolve. That is where our food, medicine, knowledge comes from. They are our relatives.

    The earth is all powerful, the earth was not made for humans, we dont HAVE to be here, the earth has its OWN process. The earth functions on natural law, and when you start to try to live by other laws, well.. then that is destructive.. because the natural law has no mercy. It is only The Law.

    The earth will go on with or without human kind. When humans destroy themselves (which will ultimately be the case) the Earth will still be here. The earth is not going anywhere. When we die off.. it will be the end of the world as WE know, but not the end of the world. When we are gone, the earth will still be here, and it will renew itself, it will be green again.. Respect it, or lose your privileges of being here.
    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
    Hunter S. Thompson



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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlankStare View Post
    To simplify the reason for God allowing evil to happen in the world... let's look at The Bible's story of Adam and Eve (side note.. check out the story of Adamu in the Sumerian people- very similar). God gave Adam and Eve the choice to choose good or evil.. (there is only one choice you have in life according to Christianity.. that is either to follow God or not follow God..) Adam and Eve disobeyed God's word, and this was the CHOICE of Adam and Eve.. beings Adam and Eve were the first people to be, and they chose to eat the apple from the tree of knowledge clearly disobeying the word of God and therefore creating Sin.. and also ruining our otherwise perfect relationship with God... to answer your question why God would allow evil- it is because God wanted us to choose Him. God allowed us a choice.
    I tried to resist....really I did....

    Presumably, since God is all knowing and all powerful, there is a wide variety of beings that God could have created, a wide variety of dispositions and abilities and intellectual levels, as well as aversion or attraction to "Good".

    So, an All knowing God, KNOWINGLY created beings that he KNEW would choose to Eat the fruit of the tree. There is NO choice involved because then God would have to NOT KNOW the outcome (since he was giving us a choice and not creating us with all-knowing Godness) before he created us and that would make god fallible and imperfect and NOT all-knowing.

    Secondly, this is a ridiculous story from the outset because it pre-supposes one of two things....That God's children, Adam and Eve, listened to the serpent and ate the fruit. So this supposes that either they are the best and brightest and most perfect of God's children, in which case NO HUMAN EVER could have resisted the serpent, and would have ate the apple...Therefor God created us FLAWED, if there was NO possible way to pass the test.

    Other choice says The Pope, Dali Lama, Mother Theresa, Buddha, Even YOU...If God came down in all his Glory and begged you to be true to him and obey this one thing, and not eat the fruit, that EVERY ONE of those people would have eaten the fruit anyway...If you think that maybe Mother T who gave her entire life to living in SHIT for a God she never even met in physical form (like Adam and Eve did) WOULD NOT have succumbed and ate the apple, then you also pre-suppose God is kind of a jerk, since he created really shady lame wishy washy beings who ignored his wishes at the first chance, and then punished EVERYONE FOREVER because of what poor quality humans did.

    Adam and Eve, while being a non-sensical story and also kind of lame as well, do not explain how a God, who knew we would have this very conversation 1 billion years before he created Earth, would do things in such a way that THIS MUCH evil would be present. Also...Lucifer...no-one ever explains how he can be GOOD and knowingly create fucking Lucifer.

    God cannot intervene supernaturally in order to stop us from ourselves.. then there would be no consequences for Good or Evil. This is also outlined in the Old and New Testament.
    Have you read the book? He knowingly intervenes a LOT to stop us from ourselves and eradicate evil and so on...

    Noah and the Flood.
    Sodom and Gomorrah.
    The Ten Commandments.
    and most notably...
    Jesus!

    Gave his only Son to remove our sin.

    So in general God intervened all the time until human history became one in which things can be PROVEN, and then God went into very very convenient hiding.

    On top of which, why is this even logical or a wise way for God to be? It shows us why he is hiding and requires faith...ok...but it doesn't explain WHY would God not want to be with us and share with us and help us become better and more in person and be PART of his creation at the level of the physical and manifest? What POSSIBLE freakin reason would prevent God from actually being a part of it all in such a way that we can KNOW it's all cool? ESPECIALLY if he is a purely loving being and not some trickster who gets off on our unsureness and fear and evil to one another....I mean...It doesn't remove our FREE WILL one BIT, if God were to come down and hang out for a day with humans and share himself physically with us and grant prayers and do miracles and shit, like one day every ten years....but it would go REALLY far in stopping the spread and deterioration of evil and pain and fear on the planet.

    And what is the motivation of God in not only allowing, but more promoting a proliferating plethora of religions who all kill each other in his name? Why not just come down ONCE and settle that? Makes no sense, for a God who is all about loving and forgiveness. Makes no Sense for a God who came down and showed himself to humans MANY MANY times in the old testament and the new.

    But to simplify it even more- Religion is a bunch of politics.
    Here we agree completely. It isn't about God much at all, but control and being RIGHT, and stopping fun in those who realize that life is a silly happy game that we've been granted either by the Big Bang and Evolution, or GOD...either way, we're here to love and have fun and spread Joy and all that....religion is mostly about sad and angry people stopping others from being free and joyful and catching them young and ruining them....

    As shown by the lovely beautiful ladies here worrying about their camming...

    Trust me, or don't....but God doesn't care AT ALL if you cam.


    If you haven't felt the presence of a spiritual being within YOURSELF.. instead of letting someone TELL you "He's There , He's There".. then really, you have only succumbed to another's belief instead of going out and finding YOUR OWN God/Spirit/Caretaker that is within YOU. The powers that be do not want you to know yourself that well. They don't want you to be spiritually tapped into yourself.. this is why they created a manual on how to live, how to think, how to be.

    In conclusion- You want to live by God? You want to live a good life? Respect ALL living THINGS. The trees, animals, water.. were all there BEFORE us, and will continue to exist AFTER us. Animals and plants are our first teachers. They taught us how to survive and evolve. That is where our food, medicine, knowledge comes from. They are our relatives.

    The earth is all powerful, the earth was not made for humans, we dont HAVE to be here, the earth has its OWN process. The earth functions on natural law, and when you start to try to live by other laws, well.. then that is destructive.. because the natural law has no mercy. It is only The Law.

    The earth will go on with or without human kind. When humans destroy themselves (which will ultimately be the case) the Earth will still be here. The earth is not going anywhere. When we die off.. it will be the end of the world as WE know, but not the end of the world. When we are gone, the earth will still be here, and it will renew itself, it will be green again.. Respect it, or lose your privileges of being here.
    Mostly agree with ALL that...cept I don't think us destroying ourselves is all that forgone. I am more a follower of Bucky Fuller and Utopia or Oblivion, and believe that (like Tim Leary) there is the possibility of us migrating to space and such, so that one world's problems are not HUMANITIES problems.

    B

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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    Quote Originally Posted by TouringGirlfriend View Post
    Hey when I worked for the massage parlor (long long time ago), the house mom believe in spirits. She called it Santeria. In the apartment we worked in there was a statue of Mami Wata. Is that the same thing? Mami Wata is very well known in my country - Nigeria.

    OMFG, TouringGirlfriend! I've been reading all your posts and love 'em but I now know why, lol. I'm your neighbor being Ghanaian and Maame Wata is very popular back home, too. What a pretty small world this is!!!
    Pretty is temporary but dumb is FOREVER!!!

    Keep your diet CLEAN and your workouts DIRTY.

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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebony Muscle View Post
    OMFG, TouringGirlfriend! I've been reading all your posts and love 'em but I now know why, lol. I'm your neighbor being Ghanaian and Maame Wata is very popular back home, too. What a pretty small world this is!!!
    Ete Sen!
    Taking a break from all unproductive shit will prove to be the best choice you can make.

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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    Yes; I believe in God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BustyAmeera View Post
    Ete Sen!
    Nyame adom, bokoo! I couldn't use the right letters but you get the idea! What a nice surprise, BustyAmeera! Thanks very much.
    Pretty is temporary but dumb is FOREVER!!!

    Keep your diet CLEAN and your workouts DIRTY.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    Well, TECHNICALLY, nudity isn't even listed as a sin in the bible, so I really don't eel the least bit guilty about it. Not that I'm particularly religious anyway, but it's not like we are SLEEPING with the guys, we are just getting naked, dancing, masterbation, etc. None of which are listed as sins in the bible. :-)

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  27. #45
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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bambalina View Post

    So, an All knowing God, KNOWINGLY created beings that he KNEW would choose to Eat the fruit of the tree. There is NO choice involved because then God would have to NOT KNOW the outcome (since he was giving us a choice and not creating us with all-knowing Godness) before he created us and that would make god fallible and imperfect and NOT all-knowing.

    This is exactly why I don't like getting into religious conversations, because it causes me to become extremely long winded.. but here it goes..


    God DID know they were going to eat the forbidden fruit.. God LET them eat the fruit because he had a plan to save them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bambalina View Post
    Secondly, this is a ridiculous story from the outset because it pre-supposes one of two things....That God's children, Adam and Eve, listened to the serpent and ate the fruit. So this supposes that either they are the best and brightest and most perfect of God's children, in which case NO HUMAN EVER could have resisted the serpent, and would have ate the apple...Therefor God created us FLAWED, if there was NO possible way to pass the test.
    What God gave man was "free-will", free to accept or reject him. Adam and Eve essentially made it so that we have free will by eating off the tree. This is why we are each responsible for the choices we make. If he didn't.. we would all be the same, mindless puppets.. which nobody, even God.. would find satisfying... the same goes for Lucifer, as God gave him the choice as well. God did not create Lucifer as evil but allowed the potential for sin. While God cannot commit sin, He doesn’t take it away from those who do. When Lucifer chose to rebel, he instantly became the author of sin. Evil is the result of a free-will choice by Lucifer. The earth is 'fallen'..This stems from humanity’s rejection of God’s rule over their lives, presented to us in the first book of the bible - Genesis 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Bambalina View Post
    Have you read the book? He knowingly intervenes a LOT to stop us from ourselves and eradicate evil and so on...

    Noah and the Flood.
    Sodom and Gomorrah.
    The Ten Commandments.
    and most notably...
    Jesus!
    Coming from my background, I have read the Bible often and many times through the years. Each time bringing up new questions like yours. To explain this part, look up 'Clockwork Universe Theory'. As for why the flood happened, the Earth was becoming overrun by human angellic hybrids (Genesis 6) and in order to SAVE US FROM GOING EXTINCT- God saved the one righteous man who was all human and seven of his family members. God intervenes at times- But as far as killings, rape, etc. this is the result of a sinful world. Jesus told us that even though this world looks hopeless, we can look to Him to intervene on behalf of the Christian when it comes to the disposition of his or her soul after death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bambalina View Post
    And what is the motivation of God in not only allowing, but more promoting a proliferating plethora of religions who all kill each other in his name? Why not just come down ONCE and settle that? Makes no sense, for a God who is all about loving and forgiveness. Makes no Sense for a God who came down and showed himself to humans MANY MANY times in the old testament and the new.
    Spiritual forces have distorted God’s truth, and mankind’s response to these "revelations" resulted in the religion..The Bible presents God as wanting all nations to know Him.He has revealed the detail of His Plan to a select group of people (the Patriarchs, then Israel, now the Church). Thus, any beautiful thing, or any aspect of truth in the religions points to God. God has put out redemptive analogies in the religions, to prepare cultures for ready acceptance of the gospel when it is heard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bambalina View Post
    there is the possibility of us migrating to space and such, so that one world's problems are not HUMANITIES problems.
    Migrating to space? To live on an even more unsustainable planet? How could we possibly do that, when we cannot even respect the planet we live on now? That would make us have to go through a whole new evolution process.. and who knows what the outcome would be there.

    In any case, I answered your questions in the way any Christian would. That being said, I am not Christian, and believe that God, in fact, does exist- but love, and humanity is what God stands for.. not all the other nonsense.

    Also, I believe that your core question is.. if God is omniscient, then he knew how all of this was going to play out.. why would he do it?
    That question has no REAL answer.. and if someone were to come up with one, a million people would be there to deny that it was in deed, God's word. But the Christian answer to that would be that God loves us. God has the power to save us, which He wants to do.
    That is a question that can only be answered by God Himself. Everything else......... speculation.
    Last edited by BlankStare; 06-30-2011 at 02:57 PM.
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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlankStare View Post
    God DID know they were going to eat the forbidden fruit.. God LET them eat the fruit because he had a plan to save them.
    This ignores the central question. Why did he create them to disobey him? To create something, and then punish it for disobeying when you had it 'programmed" to disobey, is the definition of insanity.

    And as to Christians answering this way, well, there are really two types of Christians, the ones who believe in Free Will even though Free Will cannot co-exist with an ALL Knowing God. Which is illogical and ignores reality.

    And those who believe that Free Will is a crock of shit, and there cannot be free-will. (see Calvinism)

    Either way, if God knows before he creates something what the outcome is, then God could have (all-powerful remember) made OTHER choices. GOD chose us to eat the apple when he CHOSE to create Adam and Eve who were beings who he knew would eat the apple...GOD chose the apple, NOT Adam and Eve.

    If God creates the being who brings Evil and Sin into the world, and knows before he creates that being that This ACT he is doing will create Evil, and bring Evil into the World, then GOD is the author of ALL EVIL. God could have chose a world devoid of Evil, and filled only with that which pleases his eye (presumably and according to scripture "all things good" and instead chose a world with Hell, Evil, Dahmer, Tornadoes that kill innocent children, etc.

    What God gave man was "free-will", free to accept or reject him.
    But God was incapable of giving that, if one pre-supposes an ALL KNOWING nature combined with being ALL POWERFUL to create ANYTHING.

    God cannot create something that is created in advance to eat the apple...since God either knows, or does not know they will eat the apple, and Christianity says he DID know, then he already CHOSE to make beings who would go a certain way...they did NOT have free will...they we created with full knowledge of what they would choose before they chose it, so there was no choice involved, because they could not "not choose" to eat the apple...God creating them knowingly and KNEW they WOULD eat the apple, and if he is all powerful, COULD have created them NOT to eat the apple as well.

    Also, the concept you put out there that they had to eat the apple to make things more interesting (so to speak) is ridiculous, since God, being all powerful could have just created them the way he wanted them in the first place, so the whole apple thing is just a silly story, since God is all powerful and didn;t need apple eating to make us interesting. ALL POWERFUL...INFINITE POWER NO LIMITS. remember that.

    the same goes for Lucifer, as God gave him the choice as well. God did not create Lucifer as evil but allowed the potential for sin. While God cannot commit sin, He doesn’t take it away from those who do.
    You once again re-state the logical fallacy. God created Lucifer KNOWING he would fall. He created an imperfect being KNOWING that the imperfect would ravage sin upon his creation. He knew this before he created Lucifer, and he created many angels that DID NOT SIN, and so he CHOSE to introduce Evil and Sin into the world...He KNEW when he made him, it would cause this...So GOD chose to introduce Evil into the world, which IS a sin. In fact God IS sin. There could be NO SIN without God!

    I AM THAT I AM.

    If you can see, God made it, caused it, IS it, embodies it, and in all ways is intrinsically the author of it. You cannot say that God made something fully knowing it would be negative, and then remove the negative from God's responsibility. God is the Author.


    When Lucifer chose to rebel,
    He could not CHOOSE, since he was pre-programmed, since God creating him knowing in advance, he would rebel, and Lucifer was DESTINED to rebel, and Destiny and Freewill are at ODDS.

    God intervenes at times- But as far as killings, rape, etc. this is the result of a sinful world. Jesus told us that even though this world looks hopeless, we can look to Him to intervene on behalf of the Christian when it comes to the disposition of his or her soul after death.
    Sodom and Gomorrah
    The First Born in Egypt and elsewhere.
    The Ten Commandments.
    Jesus himself BEING God and the Son of God at the same time.

    All God intervening...


    The Bible presents God as wanting all nations to know Him.He has revealed the detail of His Plan to a select group of people (the Patriarchs, then Israel, now the Church). Thus, any beautiful thing, or any aspect of truth in the religions points to God. God has put out redemptive analogies in the religions, to prepare cultures for ready acceptance of the gospel when it is heard.
    But it could ALL be accomplished by ONE appearance in physical reality for ALL humans everywhere. Just once...all humans everywhere...and Jesus did NOT accomplish that.

    I mean we would never have to ask the question again about whether an African Child who dies never having HEARD of God or Jesus gets into Heaven, because All-Powerful and All-loving God would have appeared to ALL of us at once and Answered that.




    Migrating to space? To live on an even more unsustainable planet?
    HUGE pre-supposition here....as we work toward folding space, we come closer to exploring other solar systems and there are an infinite number of highly sustainable planets...at least we have just as much right to assume that as the other side...

    One LARGE planet that sustains human life would be...wow, able to possibly support 100billion people. and it is estimated probable that there are over 100MILLION planets like this in this Galaxy!

    In any case, I answered your questions in the way any Christian would. That being said, I am not Christian, and believe that God, in fact, does exist- but love, and humanity is what God stands for.. not all the other nonsense.
    I thank you for the attempt, but it always falls short because it is based on a flawed book.

    We actually probably are pretty much in agreement about God in reality.

    Good "Devil's Advocate" work though.

    Also, I believe that your core question is.. if God is omniscient, then he knew how all of this was going to play out.. why would he do it?
    Nope, I am positing that if God EXISTS, it cannot be as the bible states, the koran or the torah...all of those MUST be wrong for the world does not at all bear out the God that is posited by these books.

    If Jesus was meant to bring slavation, love brotherhoos and so on, he FAILED. The world is divisive and mean and filled with Evil. (also wonderful and sweet and sublime and filled with very wonderful goodness) But a HUGE amount of the nastiness is directly from those who believe in Jesus and in his name.

    It is a sad thing that people cannot see that this is just another failed attempt to explain it all with a daddy figure and that God is SO much more than that, and we need to re-examine the "Truth" (capital T) by starting with the truth (little t).

    B

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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bambalina View Post
    This ignores the central question. Why did he create them to disobey him? To create something, and then punish it for disobeying when you had it 'programmed" to disobey, is the definition of insanity.

    And as to Christians answering this way, well, there are really two types of Christians, the ones who believe in Free Will even though Free Will cannot co-exist with an ALL Knowing God. Which is illogical and ignores reality.

    And those who believe that Free Will is a crock of shit, and there cannot be free-will. (see Calvinism)

    Either way, if God knows before he creates something what the outcome is, then God could have (all-powerful remember) made OTHER choices. GOD chose us to eat the apple when he CHOSE to create Adam and Eve who were beings who he knew would eat the apple...GOD chose the apple, NOT Adam and Eve.

    If God creates the being who brings Evil and Sin into the world, and knows before he creates that being that This ACT he is doing will create Evil, and bring Evil into the World, then GOD is the author of ALL EVIL. God could have chose a world devoid of Evil, and filled only with that which pleases his eye (presumably and according to scripture "all things good" and instead chose a world with Hell, Evil, Dahmer, Tornadoes that kill innocent children, etc.



    But God was incapable of giving that, if one pre-supposes an ALL KNOWING nature combined with being ALL POWERFUL to create ANYTHING.

    God cannot create something that is created in advance to eat the apple...since God either knows, or does not know they will eat the apple, and Christianity says he DID know, then he already CHOSE to make beings who would go a certain way...they did NOT have free will...they we created with full knowledge of what they would choose before they chose it, so there was no choice involved, because they could not "not choose" to eat the apple...God creating them knowingly and KNEW they WOULD eat the apple, and if he is all powerful, COULD have created them NOT to eat the apple as well.

    Also, the concept you put out there that they had to eat the apple to make things more interesting (so to speak) is ridiculous, since God, being all powerful could have just created them the way he wanted them in the first place, so the whole apple thing is just a silly story, since God is all powerful and didn;t need apple eating to make us interesting. ALL POWERFUL...INFINITE POWER NO LIMITS. remember that.



    You once again re-state the logical fallacy. God created Lucifer KNOWING he would fall. He created an imperfect being KNOWING that the imperfect would ravage sin upon his creation. He knew this before he created Lucifer, and he created many angels that DID NOT SIN, and so he CHOSE to introduce Evil and Sin into the world...He KNEW when he made him, it would cause this...So GOD chose to introduce Evil into the world, which IS a sin. In fact God IS sin. There could be NO SIN without God!

    I AM THAT I AM.

    If you can see, God made it, caused it, IS it, embodies it, and in all ways is intrinsically the author of it. You cannot say that God made something fully knowing it would be negative, and then remove the negative from God's responsibility. God is the Author.




    He could not CHOOSE, since he was pre-programmed, since God creating him knowing in advance, he would rebel, and Lucifer was DESTINED to rebel, and Destiny and Freewill are at ODDS.



    Sodom and Gomorrah
    The First Born in Egypt and elsewhere.
    The Ten Commandments.
    Jesus himself BEING God and the Son of God at the same time.

    All God intervening...




    But it could ALL be accomplished by ONE appearance in physical reality for ALL humans everywhere. Just once...all humans everywhere...and Jesus did NOT accomplish that.

    I mean we would never have to ask the question again about whether an African Child who dies never having HEARD of God or Jesus gets into Heaven, because All-Powerful and All-loving God would have appeared to ALL of us at once and Answered that.






    HUGE pre-supposition here....as we work toward folding space, we come closer to exploring other solar systems and there are an infinite number of highly sustainable planets...at least we have just as much right to assume that as the other side...

    One LARGE planet that sustains human life would be...wow, able to possibly support 100billion people. and it is estimated probable that there are over 100MILLION planets like this in this Galaxy!



    I thank you for the attempt, but it always falls short because it is based on a flawed book.

    We actually probably are pretty much in agreement about God in reality.

    Good "Devil's Advocate" work though.



    Nope, I am positing that if God EXISTS, it cannot be as the bible states, the koran or the torah...all of those MUST be wrong for the world does not at all bear out the God that is posited by these books.

    If Jesus was meant to bring slavation, love brotherhoos and so on, he FAILED. The world is divisive and mean and filled with Evil. (also wonderful and sweet and sublime and filled with very wonderful goodness) But a HUGE amount of the nastiness is directly from those who believe in Jesus and in his name.

    It is a sad thing that people cannot see that this is just another failed attempt to explain it all with a daddy figure and that God is SO much more than that, and we need to re-examine the "Truth" (capital T) by starting with the truth (little t).

    B
    Bambalina-

    I am no angel of God. Neither of us has the all answers to this one. All any of us have, is theory. Which is what we base our questions on. The world is not heaven.. the world is hell, full of sin and with sin comes evil. God is as easily explained as let's say.. aliens.
    Where are they?
    Where have they been the past century?
    Did they help the Egyptians build the pyramids, and if so, how come they haven't come back to help us out some more?
    Are they SUPREME beings?
    More evolved?
    Watching us?
    Every point that you make about God and Jesus Christ is what you have read about in the Bible. Knowing that the Book was written by MAN through the word of God, you understand that there is a WHOLE lot to be skeptical about. If you would like to go back and forth about Christianity, you should go to a preacher that can battle you word-for-word.. as I do not have a Ministry degree, and therefore can only answer your questions with what was written.. and as you and I have both pointed out.. is highly debatable. Also, religion is too touchy of a subject to fully debate in a public forum.. however, I would be more than happy to debate with you in a more private setting.

    Perhaps God isn't omniscient.. ? That would explain EVERYTHING.

    Religions do bring people together, and also separates people. There is good and bad within the world and ourselves. The KEY is to find BALANCE between the two. Also, you cannot compare the fact that a lot of people are simple asses with being Christians. There's a whole lot of nasty, deceitfulness, and corrupt shit in the world.. obviously this has nothing to do with Christianity.. because if you are a true Christian, you practice love, compassion, sympathy, and all good things. And if you sin, you realize it was wrong and ask for forgiveness. Now, as I, and millions upon millions of others will tell you, that when you FEEL GOD in your BODY.. there is no denying it. Once again I will say, that I am not a Christian, but I feel God's (or WHATEVER you would like to call it.. that spiritual feeling deep down in the pit of your stomach) presence in my life daily.
    When you LOVE.. that is God. That's not science.
    I highly respect your questioning.. as all people question the existence of God at one point or another.

    However, going to another planet.. saying that the end of the earth will not be the end of humanity- this I highly disagree with, and this is the kind of talk that people do when they think they are smarter than nature. In OUR life time.. we will not be migrating to another planet, or another galaxy. And the way that things are falling, they have a VERY small window of creating anything as such before total hell breaks loose. Whether that be war, famine, natural disasters, etc.

    I sincerely enjoy your views and theories, and look forward to perhaps having more of this going back and forth. I LOVE debating, and it looks like you may enjoy it quite a lot, too.. and are DAMN good at it! It seems like we may be into a lot of the same (but on opposite sides of) issues, and maybe we could get together and debate, agree, and philosophize. I like to be challenged.. but on this (Christianity) subject I cannot step up to the plate in this forum.. also, I think other than yourself and me, most others have lost interest in our debate. However, I have not, and am very serious about racking your brain.
    Last edited by BlankStare; 07-02-2011 at 07:09 PM. Reason: typo
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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    Hi Guys (long time reader, first time poster, please don't bite lol). Interesting thread! Yes, I believe in God/Jesus. Was brought up in an atheist home. None of my family talk about God. I don't go to church (I have on occasion since 'finding' God). However, without getting into whether or not God does or does not exist, and why things are the way they are, I think the important thing is this - treat other people the way you want to be treated.

    Just quickly - I'm trying to sign up for SM, and I don't know if the first step when name is required is my real name or performer name? Can someone point me to a thread if there's one discussing this or PM me? Thanks

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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    After reading your post once more, I came to the conclusion I HAD to respond to this part (perhaps as I was taught to do):

    Quote Originally Posted by Bambalina View Post
    You once again re-state the logical fallacy. God created Lucifer KNOWING he would fall. He created an imperfect being KNOWING that the imperfect would ravage sin upon his creation. He knew this before he created Lucifer, and he created many angels that DID NOT SIN, and so he CHOSE to introduce Evil and Sin into the world...He KNEW when he made him, it would cause this...So GOD chose to introduce Evil into the world, which IS a sin. In fact God IS sin. There could be NO SIN without God!

    I AM THAT I AM.

    If you can see, God made it, caused it, IS it, embodies it, and in all ways is intrinsically the author of it. You cannot say that God made something fully knowing it would be negative, and then remove the negative from God's responsibility. God is the Author.
    All of this is laid out in Scriptures. Sin originates with the serpent.. and beings that God created the serpent (obviously he must have, beings he is the creator of all things) then surely God IS the creator of sin.. therefore God himself must have sinned.. *****IF**** Creating SIN was a MISTAKE.. and not part of God's plan. There are purposes for sin; there can be no savior apart from SIN. If the serpent/devil was not created by God, then it could get out of hand. God introduced sin in order to show his full glory.





    Quote Originally Posted by Bambalina View Post
    But it could ALL be accomplished by ONE appearance in physical reality for ALL humans everywhere. Just once...all humans everywhere...and Jesus did NOT accomplish that.

    I mean we would never have to ask the question again about whether an African Child who dies never having HEARD of God or Jesus gets into Heaven, because All-Powerful and All-loving God would have appeared to ALL of us at once and Answered that.
    I'm pretty sure this has to do with the second coming of Christ; in which case the Lord will show himself and the world be renewed.
    In the end, sin will have served it's purpose and God will make all things right.



    Angel- You fill in your real name. Your stage name will be a field that says 'performer name' or something of that nature.
    Last edited by BlankStare; 07-02-2011 at 06:51 PM.
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    Default Re: Camming and God (or another deity)

    The debate is quite fun, however, I see that it is impossible, as with most Christians I have discussed it with, to go back to first principles. I mean, there is not REASON for God to have done things in such an entirely painful convoluted way with so much pain and suffering and sin and evil and devils and Dahmers and Cancer and all that stuff, when HE is supposedly able to do anything, and if he isn't omniscient or Omnipotent, then he isn't God...eh? He'd just be a super=-powerful alien or something.

    As far as scripture, God says we should kill our children if they talk back and are rebellious, and then Jesus affirms it, by ere-affirming every letter of the Law.

    If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. -- He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death. -- He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. --

    God says that we are doing wrong by our ancestors stopping slavery, and my ancestors (who actually lived in Illinois and didn't ever own slaves) are sinners, because slavery is a fine thing according to God and slaves are supposed to respect and obey their Christian masters.

    Titus 2:9
    "Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them"

    1 Peter 2:18
    "Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh."

    Col 3:22
    "Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord."

    Eph 6:5
    "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ."

    We cringe at the idea of Moslems stoning women, yet the bible prescribes EXACTLY that for adulterous women. And Jesus himself said the Law (which this is taken from) IS the law of God and I come not to change the Law.

    Lastly
    ,.this

    31 “It was said, ‘aWhoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce’; 32 abut I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for thereason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.


    and the LAW states adultery is a crime with death as a punishment.


    In other words, we're discussing a book filled with ridiculousness, things we all find evil being the will of God, contradictions, etc.


    I believe in God, or at least something that is akin to the Force in Star Wars....an all-pervading universal goodness that one can tap into...
    I have SERIOUS doubts as to its cognizance and especially as to it's infallibility.


    One thing we can be absolutely certain of, in my opinion, is that the bible is a book by men and has VERY little to do with God, just as the Greek Myths have very little to do with the reality of God....


    God's book wouldn't have wrong scientific "facts", contradictions numbering in the thousands, absolutely immoral things like slavery coming directly from God, ridiculous laws, and lastly, all the inherent trouble I posted up there, and which though you try valiantly, I do not feel you ever get back to WHY an all powerful deity would do things in such a painful, agonizing, convoluted fashion. When he could just make +

    is truly understand goodness and light and love and be happy and jous and interesting and make Earth BE heaven..because why the hell not? He's all powerful for Christ's sake! (pun intended)




    Now, I agree that this is not the forum for THIS discussion, so i end it here...


    We'll continue it elsewhere, and so far, I like you, so it's a date....


    B

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