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    Default Defending stripping to feminists

    So tonight I may or may not have the chance to represent my current club and speak about stripping to a feminist group who are fighting to close all strip clubs in town.
    I'm preparing myself, running through all the positive things I've gained through stripping (confidence, opportunities to travel, people skills) but I was wondering if there is anything in particular that you feel I should mention?

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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    I have no insight on regular stripping but I know that modeling and virtual stripping (camming) have given me financial freedom and a confidence I never had before. I was always the ugly duckling but now people want to see me the most unflattering way you can be seen -naked, nothing to hide "imperfections"- and not only do they WANT to see me that way, they want it so much that they'll PAY for it.

    It's totally changed the way I look at my body. I see myself as worthy and beautiful now. I used to slut around (I guess to get validation or feel worthy. I felt like I owed the guy my body if he gave me even the littlest thing) but I've stopped. Um, no I will not sleep with you if you buy me dinner. My half of dinner is only 15$. Men pay 3X that amount to spend just 15 minutes of time with me or to just take my pictures.


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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    i am a feminist. i'm not sure what it is exactly that your increases in confidence and travel opportunities have to do with the objectification and the financial exploitation of women.

    are the lack of confidence in sex workers and decreased travel experiences the reasons they want to close your area's clubs?

    let me stop before i hurt your feelings.

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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    Quote Originally Posted by camille27 View Post
    let me stop before i hurt your feelings.
    I see no reason to stop, healthy discussion is only for the good of the industry.

    In terms of what the feminist group is going to say Camille is spot-on: objectification and financial exploitation of women are major issues feminist groups have with stripping.

    Maybe instead of talking about increased self esteem you could talk about the subversion of male-dominated society/rape culture. The arguments would look something like:

    I am so sexy men pay to talk to me, I am so amazing I'm taking male objectification in stride and CHARGING them for it! Listen [feminist group], its going to happen either way and I appreciate your efforts to reduce it, but if its going on hell yeah am I going to profit from it!

    Not only can I profit from it, by manipulating myself into what men find attractive I can get even more from men! I can take their arbitrary ideals and bend them to suit my needs! No, I don't think those ideals are fair and or should be applied to everyone, but so long as they are I'm going to make money.

    By stripping I am subverting male power and taking it into my hands. I control the dances, I lead the conversations, I say what I am comfortable with and not and by doing that I am taking their traditional male power away from them - by using their own devices! My personal sense of power is only increased by stripping: I say who, where, when and for how much.

    If equal pay is a feminist issue (and it is) then the sex industry is one where women can outearn men significantly at the same job while staying healthy, sane and reclaiming a significant amount of control.



    You can also counter their arguments about exploitation and objectification in some of the following ways:

    I am not being exploited: rather, I am exploiting their ideas of what sexy, hot and "of value" are. I give them nothing tangible other than the opportunity to look at me naked and watch a good show. In return I get (their admiration and) money. Its a mutual arrangement between adults where they relenquish control and I get money.

    Yes, I am being objectified - just like my clients are being objectified. My objectification happens on basis of my body, their objectification happens on basis of their wallet. My body is a (relatively) infinate resource, their wallet is not.



    Unless they're current/former strippers they really can't say anything about how it makes someone feel on a personal level. If they start bringing up studies that talk about addiction rates, malcontent, exploitation, etc. its pretty crucial to point out how only the bad stuff gets reported. No one calls the feminist groups/cops/w.e to say "Hey! I had a great day at work, earned a lot of money and came home sober!".



    I've read some much more articulate arguments pro-stripping about burlesque, you might want to google that for more ideas.

    For the record I don't think there's anything anti-feminist about stripping but I don't agree 100% with the arguments I've presented - they're just the really common ones.
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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    http://human-stupidity.com/stupid-do...ion-dismantled > about prostitution but the pro/con list applies to most of stripping.
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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    Financial freedom. I am currently paying off all my past credit card, college & debt in general. One girl I work w/ that I've known for years owns two cars & a two story house out in the suburbs (how many 25 year old young women can actually say they own their own cars & a house out in a very nice suburb). Two girls I work w/ have bought themselves condos (one will actually be taking a leave of absence to go live in Hungary for a year). You can also take the money put it into cds or investments, etc.

    Clearer understanding of the opposite sex as well.

    There are so many great, valid reasons to strip temporarily or as a career if decided. Just because society says something is wrong doesn't mean it is (it's not the dark ages anymore) -hell if that was the case, then women still wouldn't be free or allowed to vote. But hey that's society's view, huh.

    I'm sure Melonie will prob have some great financial pearls of wisdom for this thread as well.

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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    Here's another great reason in my personal opinion that I'm sure many other entertainers can share. I love my job w/ a passion & I'm very good at it. I've tried to stop & do regular corporate work, etc. & was miserable -I have been & probably will continue to be happiest in the line of work that I am currently in.



    Also, feminist groups should realize as well that a sex worker is not only a female based job -there are many, many men that are sex workers as well (escorts, strippers, models, cam guys, etc). The feminists always seem to overlook this....

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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    I agree tons with what Beckatron, particularly about the idea that this is one field where we earn more than men in the same field... & now they want to take that away? I call bs!

    A lot of feminists forget that the original intent of the movement was for women to be able to make their own decisions. If they take away the right for a strip club with female entertainers to operate, they are taking away our ability to make our own decisions... it really goes against the grain of their main goal.

    Second, if they only do this to the gentlemen's clubs & not to the strip clubs with male entertainers, then they themselves are being sexist. Again, that's very common.
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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    because i was once so very connected to ivory tower feminism, this is all a bit difficult for me to take seriously. the best argument a dancer has in defense of her right to strip without interference is "until objectification of all women ceases, i am going to get paid for it." it is not a solution to patriarchy, but it forces well-minded feminists to remember the real issue at hand, horizontal hostility aside.

    please, for the sake of my blood pressure, do not mention how you make lots of money and have time to travel and stripping has opened up so many doors and....

    when you are arguing with someone, speak on what will appeal to them. focus on big picture, suppress your urge to whine about your totally awesome and not-exploitative experience (which, i assure you, they will not give a shit about), and redirect the issue back to "society at large is not a product of strip clubs existing, but rather, the other way around". focus on strip clubs being the last priority, as strip clubs do not create rapists, do not create juries who rarely believe the testimony of rape victims because the female voice is consistently discounted (here, you can even allude to the many female voices that are being discounted when their rights to bodily autonomy in sex work are questioned), and so on.

    please, in the name of various deities, do not mention how this is the only way you could've afforded college, your living space, your car, and all the other opportunities you've bought with lapdance money.



    Quote Originally Posted by beckatron View Post
    I see no reason to stop, healthy discussion is only for the good of the industry.

    In terms of what the feminist group is going to say Camille is spot-on: objectification and financial exploitation of women are major issues feminist groups have with stripping.

    Maybe instead of talking about increased self esteem you could talk about the subversion of male-dominated society/rape culture. The arguments would look something like:

    I am so sexy men pay to talk to me, I am so amazing I'm taking male objectification in stride and CHARGING them for it! Listen [feminist group], its going to happen either way and I appreciate your efforts to reduce it, but if its going on hell yeah am I going to profit from it!

    Not only can I profit from it, by manipulating myself into what men find attractive I can get even more from men! I can take their arbitrary ideals and bend them to suit my needs! No, I don't think those ideals are fair and or should be applied to everyone, but so long as they are I'm going to make money.

    By stripping I am subverting male power and taking it into my hands. I control the dances, I lead the conversations, I say what I am comfortable with and not and by doing that I am taking their traditional male power away from them - by using their own devices! My personal sense of power is only increased by stripping: I say who, where, when and for how much.

    If equal pay is a feminist issue (and it is) then the sex industry is one where women can outearn men significantly at the same job while staying healthy, sane and reclaiming a significant amount of control.



    You can also counter their arguments about exploitation and objectification in some of the following ways:

    I am not being exploited: rather, I am exploiting their ideas of what sexy, hot and "of value" are. I give them nothing tangible other than the opportunity to look at me naked and watch a good show. In return I get (their admiration and) money. Its a mutual arrangement between adults where they relenquish control and I get money.

    Yes, I am being objectified - just like my clients are being objectified. My objectification happens on basis of my body, their objectification happens on basis of their wallet. My body is a (relatively) infinate resource, their wallet is not.



    Unless they're current/former strippers they really can't say anything about how it makes someone feel on a personal level. If they start bringing up studies that talk about addiction rates, malcontent, exploitation, etc. its pretty crucial to point out how only the bad stuff gets reported. No one calls the feminist groups/cops/w.e to say "Hey! I had a great day at work, earned a lot of money and came home sober!".



    I've read some much more articulate arguments pro-stripping about burlesque, you might want to google that for more ideas.

    For the record I don't think there's anything anti-feminist about stripping but I don't agree 100% with the arguments I've presented - they're just the really common ones.

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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    it's funny how when women focus on other women, someone always wants to bring up men.

    FEMINISTS are not overlooking MALE sex workers. FEMINISTS are focusing on FEMALE sex workers.


    becka, you are so christianly and patient, do your thing homie. i +1 whatever you say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandi_Lynn View Post
    Also, feminist groups should realize as well that a sex worker is not only a female based job -there are many, many men that are sex workers as well (escorts, strippers, models, cam guys, etc). The feminists always seem to overlook this....

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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    Quote Originally Posted by beckatron View Post
    Unless they're current/former strippers they really can't say anything about how it makes someone feel on a personal level. If they start bringing up studies that talk about addiction rates, malcontent, exploitation, etc. its pretty crucial to point out how only the bad stuff gets reported. No one calls the feminist groups/cops/w.e to say "Hey! I had a great day at work, earned a lot of money and came home sober!".
    This is my personal experience most of the time! Well, sometimes I earn less than I'd like, but it is a competitive sales job at the end of they day.

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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    I don't have time to write a proper reply now, but the interview didn't end up happening. It may still in the future I guess, in which case I will be prepared.
    For the record I was never going to talk about money, my boss said the aim would be to show them that it's a nice clean place with respectful customers and girls who are there because they want to be, not because they have to be.
    I asked you guys for suggestions as I was sure you would have some valuable input and you have gone above and beyond what I expected. So thank you for your responses, and should this group come to the club in the future, I will have much to say.

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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    I once got into this discussion with a radical feminist who thought the sex industry should be shut down. I told her that I am a feminist myself and that the reality is it's a field that is open to women. Unfortunately we still live in a society that does discriminate against women and where women are paid less than men for the same job. In fact many women college grads are often paid less than men with only a high school diploma. In a perfect world there would be opportunities for women and in reality women struggle.

    I've never understood why many feminists dislike the industry because it's one where women can make a good living. Sure, it has a lot of terrible problems but women face this in every job. Women face sexual harassment in clubs but they do in "real" jobs as well. Plus, like mentioned above this gives women choices to do as they feel. Let's not forget that strippers and the like are working women and often working mothers who deal with many of the same problems all working mothers deal with.

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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    It's great that you're ready to take on the radical feminist argument against the sex industry - because the "Real Men Don't Buy Girls" media campaign is really gaining traction and succeeding in its effort to "frame" the global sex industry as apologist for and promoters of the enslavement of under-age teens. I would take this seriously if I were you.

    Take a look at the latest "Twitter War" between Ashton Kutcher and Demi Moore and the Village Voice - the venerable "alternative" newspaper that still accepts ads from sex workers and strip clubs. Look here: http://camgirlnotes.15.forumer.com/i...showtopic=2970
    UL

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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    i qualify as a radical feminist and i am so oh so so so tempted to recite some of my favorite dworkin quotes.

    i'm confused as to what is being argued here. what the FUCK does sex work have to do with free speech? the right to sell ass, the right to bodily autonomy doesn't have shit to do with newspapers publishing advertisements.

    censorship regarding the sex industry is virtually non-existent.

    i would like to see sex workers more up and arms about the right to live in a world without fear of violence and rape.

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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    Quote Originally Posted by camille27 View Post

    i would like to see sex workers more up and arms about the right to live in a world without fear of violence and rape.
    When femi-nazis stop trying to take away our right to make our living the way we want, and our right to exploit men's sexual weaknesses for OUR personal gain, then yall can talk to us about what you prefer we get up in arms about.

    Furthermore, it is highly offensive that you flat discount our very valid reasons for wanting to do what we do. We don't give a shit about your reasons for trying to shove your moral beliefs on us - leave us (and our bread and butter) alone and go back to the REAL issues feminism is supposed to be working for. Then we might get somewhere.


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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    feminazis? your intellect is showing, mama, and it isn't becoming.

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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    That's right, you can't argue the merits of what I said so you try to feign intellectual superiority to deflect. Nice try.


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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    there is no feigning of intellectual superiority. i assure you it is fact.

    feminazi is a really disgusting word used by really disgusting people who are attempting to link the desire for females to be treated as human beings in a patriarchy to a political group that attempted to exterminated the jewish population of europe.

    i will not to "argue" the "merits" of what you said because what you said holds no merit by your own insistence of resorting to a disparaging and wholly inaccurate term for feminists, who they are, and what they do and have done.

    no one is taking away your right to shake or sell your ass. in fact, no one gives a shit about what you do with your ass. and frankly, if you think that the feminist movement is all that concerned with what sex workers do on the clock, you are thinking that you are way more important than you are to feminists or anyone else. welcome to the margins of society. no one actually gives a shit about you!

    the concern of feminists is that the sex industry, which is not controlled by women no matter what lie you feed yourself about "exploiting sexual weakness", perpetuates the subservience of and encourages violence against all women, WHICH IT DOES. these are harsh realities but if you want to live in your fictional, fox news world, you can do just that, and continue to pretend that anyone gives a damn what you do with your ass at all.

    honestly, if you are going to live in a dream world, aim higher.

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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    LOL.

    Feminazi is a term used to describe self-righteous bitches who want to shove their beliefs on others, and limit the choices of others because they think their beliefs are more right. Much like religious zealots are commonly called bible thumpers.

    If feminists weren't overly concerned with people like me, they wouldn't be trying to shut down our businesses.

    The rest of what you say is just horseshit you zealots use to convince yourselves you're better than women like me. Keep looking down from your high horse if it makes you feel good about yourself. It matters not one iota to me as long as you stay out of MY business and leave MY money-making alone.

    Oh and you have no idea what I do for a living, but the fact you assume it's run by a man or males is interesting

    Bye now


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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    okay, loser. you are projecting your insecurities way too much. you think you are inferior, are less intelligent, looked down upon, and of irrational important to the rest of society. otherwise, you wouldn't keep bringing up shit that no one fucking mentioned.

    go back to your happy place where the sex industry is puppies and roses and have a blessed 2011.

    and before djoser closes the thread, i want to point out that there are always women lurking who need to know that someone is on their side, is not blind or brainwashed, is in defense of their right to feel like and be treated as a human being, and i am posting for THEM. not these random trolls that pop up every six months to call people bitches and nazis.

    this thread, "super bitch", was not about you, because no one gives a shit about you or what you do with your ass or how you make your living. i swear, some of you log on and just type whatever the fuck pops into your head, don't give a damn whether it's related or on topic or slightly appropriate, just type type type like a fucking psycho and hope that someone reads it and responds.

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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    Quote Originally Posted by SupaByoch View Post
    LOL.

    Feminazi is a term used to describe self-righteous bitches who want to shove their beliefs on others, and limit the choices of others because they think their beliefs are more right. Much like religious zealots are commonly called bible thumpers.

    If feminists weren't overly concerned with people like me, they wouldn't be trying to shut down our businesses.
    serioulsy? (i just quoted this supabyoth i agree with you.)
    i consider myself pro women not the politically correct feminist term. to me femnazi isn't harking back to the time of REAL Nazis its a term to describe militant females that actually take away from the movement by picking on females that are empowering themselves by using female power to make money off of men and empower themselves at the same time. it makes me fucking sick that so called "feminist" work against the very people that they say they are defending.
    ps non troll here...
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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    slut it out responsibly and don't forget to smile while you're whoring out!!

    Glitter is like herpes that shit never goes away!



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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    And I'm posting for those who like to be allowed to make their own choices without a bunch of zealots trying to limit their choices because they think they're better or smarter or more "moral". Ivory tower feminists are just as much bad news for women as the hard-right bible thumpers. If not worse, because you are women fighting against your very own. Ironic.

    The thread was about defending the sex industry from feminists who want to shut it down. I posted my thoughts on the subject like anyone else, and related it directly to something I felt was argumentative and frankly, offensive to sex workers in general. If that makes me a psycho and a troll....well I'd hate to live in your world. yeesh.

    Enough said.
    Last edited by SupaByoch; 07-04-2011 at 12:11 AM.


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    Default Re: Defending stripping to feminists

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    serioulsy? (i just quoted this supabyoth i agree with you.)
    i consider myself pro women not the politically correct feminist term. to me femnazi isn't harking back to the time of REAL Nazis its a term to describe militant females that actually take away from the movement by picking on females that are empowering themselves by using female power to make money off of men and empower themselves at the same time. it makes me fucking sick that so called "feminist" work against the very people that they say they are defending.
    ps non troll here...
    Agreed with this. Everyone knows that there are aspects of the industry that are demeaning to women. We've all dealt with the nasty club owners who try to screw us both financially and literally. We've dealt with the guys out to make a quick buck off us. We've dealt with the people who are only in the industry to make money off women. We've dealt with the men who think we are all whores.

    However, there are women who have taken control of their careers and make a living off the industry. They see nothing wrong with what they are doing yet the militant feminists think they are degraded. To militant feminists they think any job in a looks based industry is bad including modeling and acting. No, it's not great to be judged on looks, but if one make that choice why do they care?

    I could go into a rant with how these women not only destroyed feminism but society. Don't get me wrong, I love having choices, but some of the choices are destructive. Feminism at its roots is letting women make their own choices. When you have militant feminists protesting clubs they are taking away the rights of women to make that choice. When someone tries to take away a choice they are no better than the bible thumpers.

    Btw, original feminism was all about voting and later in the 1960's was about women having the choice whether to have kids or not, and whether to work. It's has been warped to include other issues that in reality are very antifeminist.

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