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Thread: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

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    Veteran Member peachplumpear's Avatar
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    Dizzy Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    Anyone else a little disillusioned by by all these "goings on"? It really makes you think about getting off the grid...not being reliant on these fake ass corrupt politicians. Being willing to step away from convention and be a little inconvenienced by it for a time, but possibley in a position of great stability if shit hits the fan in your lifetime. I ask myself- do I really want to be part of the urban masses and apartment dwellers roaming for food and shelter?

    Ok so maybe from outward appearances I (and almost anyone else reading this) appear materialistic: Air conditioning, cell phone, decent car, w/e tho, these things dont make you YOU they are merely conveniences. Basically from the moment I could understand the concept of worldwide suffering at the actions of humans, at around 11 or 12 probably when my dad gave us mandated storytime out of Al Gore's book Earth in the balance...all I ever think about is owning property, growing my own food and tending to animals, and basically not giving a fuck when society crumbles because me and mine are all good up in woods. I know it's hard work, do you think its worth it to strive for that each day? That voluntary push to remove your reliance on these outside systems? I feel like I've lived every day of my life past childhood with this in mind. Always trying new things and hobbies, majors in college, but deep down knowing I just wanted to live without all the politics and BS of the world. And I started to believe I could truly do it feasibly since I first brought home $100 in tips as an 18 year old waitress. And now having earned so much more than that in the last eight years I KNOW it is possible to do and I'm sick of squandering my wealth on these transient things, being so distracted by the wring things. So who's with me? Were starting a commune and were going to fleece the consumers out there as super hot strippers for as long as we can and keep building wealth and tools of value. Bracing ourselves for whatever may come and just trying to be the most prepared for anything.

    Ok that all sounded a little out there but that last part was tounge in cheek, we aren't planning a stripper commune anytime soon and I guess what I meant is that when I am a property owner, I want to eat yummy stuff out of my garden and just try to see the bigger picture, be responsible and frugal...Participate in elections when they're offered but really try and stay out of the polarizing issues. Seems like either way it will go bad for the world and especially the US. Not trying to be pessimistic but I can't ignore the facts. The patterns. The disrespect of all leaders but a small handful of visionaries. The writing is on the wall and I just want out of the ratrace to make a career in the modern world and become reliant on a lifestyle based on non-renewable resources I will enjoy it for now, and do what I can to benefit from my surroundings and position, but don't be surprised if I packrat all my cash and head to hills within the next ten years!

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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    all I ever think about is owning property, growing my own food and tending to animals, and basically not giving a fuck when society crumbles because me and mine are all good up in woods. I know it's hard work, do you think its worth it to strive for that each day? That voluntary push to remove your reliance on these outside systems?
    Actually, I have been working along these same lines over the past few years as I was preparing for 'retirement' from exotic dancing and NOT planning to go back to work at a 'straight' job ( even though I do have a health care related college degree ). Phase one was buying a house with a bit of property attached in a town small enough to only have a 4 way stop sign ( the house was actually my now deceased grandmother's ). I then added a greenhouse, and continued to cultivate my grandma's huge outdoor garden. Between the canning skills that I had learned long ago from my grandmother, plus picking up some new skills like ( lactic acid ) pickling, and miniature fruit tree husbandry, successfully bagging a deer and a few turkeys during hunting season, as well as two freezers, I was essentially 'off the grid' as far as fruits and vegetables went, with the venison and turkey covering at least 1/2 of my 'protein' needs as well. I also added a wood stove, a generator, a deep water well etc. and was thus fairly independent of the 'grid' utility wise if I needed to be.

    However, Phase One quickly turned sour for three reasons over which I had no real control. The first was the near total loss of my outdoor garden crop after being 'invaded' by out of season deer. In my particular state, even if you take the classes and pony up the money to get a 'big game' hunting license ( which I had ),shooting a deer out of season on your own property is illegal if that deer manages to stumble across your property line onto someone else's land before dying ... and carries HUGE fines which the state DEC is extremely ready to collect. The second was a massive increase in property taxes due to my greenhouse being considered as possible 'commercial' property. This would have been problematic since new FDA laws would require me to keep complete records of all of my produce ingredients and sources in order to actually 'sell' any of it without liability or potential fines. And the third, and most frustrating, was being outright burglarized repeatedly since the presence of the greenhouse seemed to 'announce' that the person living there had money and was thus a lucrative 'victim'. I lost everything from gasoline to a roto-tiller to a garden tractor, with the state police never turning up a meaningful lead let alone recovering my stolen property. And even if I had been at home when burglars showed up, state law would have prevented me from 'defending my property'. Based on Phase 1 I ultimately came to the conclusion that my self-sufficiency plan wouldn't be worth anything if conditions really did turn seriously bad, because of the extreme probability that any number of people might see what I had 'built' and try to 'appropriate' the fruits ( and vegetables ) of my labors for themselves ( right along with my gardening equipment and anything else of 'value' ).

    Phase 2 involved a completely different approach ... which involved leaving the USA in favor of a country where one is allowed to defend one's own property to whatever degree one sees fit using whatever weapons one chooses !!! I also have a much longer growing season LOL. Also practically nothing in the way of property taxes OR taxes on the investment income generated by my years worth of savings from exotic dancing.

    My obvious point is that, in many US states, law abiding 'self sufficient' citizens will wind up being the first 'victims' of non law abiding neighbors the minute things start getting 'difficult'. As I discovered the 'hard' way, in order to be a successful 'survivalist' in many US states one absolutely needs to be part of a likeminded 'community' in order to establish a mutual 'defense'. Without that, every other effort you make is simply piling up lots of 'goodies' in one location to simplify the job of non law abiding ripoff artists.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 07-05-2011 at 03:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    I ultimately came to the conclusion that my self-sufficiency plan wouldn't be worth anything if conditions really did turn seriously bad, because of the extreme probability that any number of people might see what I had 'built' and try to 'appropriate' the fruits ( and vegetables ) of my labors for themselves ( right along with my gardening equipment and anything else of 'value' ).
    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    My obvious point is that, in many US states, law abiding 'self sufficient' citizens will wind up being the first 'victims' of non law abiding neighbors the minute things start getting 'difficult'.
    This this this. I would love to survive 'off the grid' more(not completely!) and be more self dependent for $$$ reasons but I really don't think I'd be better off because of it in the face of catastrophe, like Melanie said if anything I'd be more vulnerable.

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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    I grew up on a farm. We hardly bought anything except flour and sugar, grew everything else. Outdoor toilet till I was 6 years old. Food was good and it was fun playing with the baby animals but I despised the isolation and I've shoveled enough shit to do me the rest of my life.

    I love being social and my technology too much to ever want to give it up. I would not mind adding in some solar power and some organic gardening to my lifestyle though.

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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    Yup, I have seen up close and personal what happens to civilization when the rules (Laws) get shut down for even a little while.

    Actually right now I am gathering the material (buckets, mylar bags, O2 absorbers, and moisture absorbers) to begin packaging long storage rice and beans.

    Yes, there is truth to what Melonie says when it takes a community, takes the proverbial ""the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker"

    Even if you had on hand a 30-60-or 90 supply of food, water, and sanitation supplies you would outlast the common people by an enormous margin.

    The average large metro relies on just in time arrival of goods with little stockpiled. This means any city is within three days of major violent food riots.

    Going shopping? buy one extra each time. Use the oldest first. Set minimums to buy again.
    Lets say you like canned peaches.
    The first time you buy two cans and set your minimum at one can.
    When you have one can, buy two. now your plus one. Put the new cans in the back, and bring the oldest forward. First in, First Out (FIFO). You might even mark you cans with a sharpie so you know how old it is (date) and how much it cost when you bought it. Then over time you minimum will grow 6, 12, 18, 24.

    Buy what you eat and eat what you buy. Then you know you like it and it does not sit there until it rots.

    Just in time and returning from the dead (Server death) is the Zombie Squad food porn thread.

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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    Better invest in an extra can opener too.....would suck to break the only one you have.

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    Veteran Member AngelKing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    Fuck the peaches. Buy toilet paper.

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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    ^^^Isn't that a song...?

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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    However, Phase One quickly turned sour for three reasons over which I had no real control. The first was the near total loss of my outdoor garden crop after being 'invaded' by out of season deer. In my particular state, even if you take the classes and pony up the money to get a 'big game' hunting license ( which I had ),shooting a deer out of season on your own property is illegal if that deer manages to stumble across your property line onto someone else's land before dying ... and carries HUGE fines which the state DEC is extremely ready to collect. The second was a massive increase in property taxes due to my greenhouse being considered as possible 'commercial' property. This would have been problematic since new FDA laws would require me to keep complete records of all of my produce ingredients and sources in order to actually 'sell' any of it without liability or potential fines. And the third, and most frustrating, was being outright burglarized repeatedly since the presence of the greenhouse seemed to 'announce' that the person living there had money and was thus a lucrative 'victim'. I lost everything from gasoline to a roto-tiller to a garden tractor, with the state police never turning up a meaningful lead let alone recovering my stolen property. And even if I had been at home when burglars showed up, state law would have prevented me from 'defending my property'. Based on Phase 1 I ultimately came to the conclusion that my self-sufficiency plan wouldn't be worth anything if conditions really did turn seriously bad, because of the extreme probability that any number of people might see what I had 'built' and try to 'appropriate' the fruits ( and vegetables ) of my labors for themselves ( right along with my gardening equipment and anything else of 'value' ).


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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    Ever since I started stripping I feel like a naturalist... I like being naked and get irritated if the beach I go to isn't topless

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    Veteran Member AngelKing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zinaida View Post
    ^^^Isn't that a song...?
    If it isn't, it should be!

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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    I think I may have been using the term naturalist too broadly? I guess it could mean going naked though, sure It's defined as only being concerned with that which is in our natural world, nothing metaphysical. I think nature is just so awesome. If I actually had a TV and cable, all I would want to watch are operations on discovery health, things about volcanos, or anything on animals. Maybe history channel, but not all that doomsday stuff and stuff about wars or religion. That stuff makes me sick. That we, humans, woke up one day (whether you believe in evolution or some alien theory as to why we are here) and just started to fuck shit up. It's crazy how we went from little bands of hunter gatherers to a full blown invasion (infestation?) on this planet. And Oh! The entitlement!

    That's really cool that some of you have already tried this, I guess I pictured myself far enough out there that no one could feasibly make it in and out with anything of value. I don't want to sound too doomsday myself, but this is just something I think about late at night sometimes. How unprepared we are. How outraged people will be when they can only be mad at themselves for not doing anything for so long.

    And yeah I imagine it would get boring. But I would make use of technology till it was extinct, or cut off or whatever. And I do love to stockpile books. They can always become kindling

    And Melonie what was phase 3? (I'm resisting quoting the south park underpants gnomes SO hard right now)

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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    Quote Originally Posted by AngelKing View Post
    Fuck the peaches.

    If you are going to do this...make sure you remove the pit.

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    Veteran Member AngelKing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    Quote Originally Posted by lemiwinks31 View Post
    If you are going to do this...make sure you remove the pit.
    I'd be more worried about the can.

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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    Quote Originally Posted by peachplumpear View Post
    Anyone else a little disillusioned by by all these "goings on"?
    Quote Originally Posted by peachplumpear View Post
    I ask myself- do I really want to be part of the urban masses and apartment dwellers roaming for food and shelter?
    No, those are called Refugees. The are both preyed upon and predator depending on circumstances. Most people feel bad for them but, nobody wants them in their town.

    Quote Originally Posted by peachplumpear View Post
    I guess what I meant is that when I am a property owner, I want to eat yummy stuff out of my garden and just try to see the bigger picture, be responsible and frugal..
    Thoreau? What would be called a self reliant lifestyle now. This differs immensely from a survivalist in many ways. Mostly that the survivalist gathers their supplies and learns to use them but, continues an urban or suburban lifestyle. The survivalist plans and prepares for what really will be a crisis that is a year or less. The usually have a plan to relocate should an area become to dangerous. Where as a someone who is self reliant is tied to a home stead, and plans to make use of it for a crisis of short or long duration.

    Rules are not hard and fast here. The new invogue term for the Survivalist and Self Reliant is one into preparedness or a prepper. The things they do overlap a lot.

    Don’t think of Survivalists a Doom sayers as ultimately they believe that life will continue, and they are making every effort to be there and as comfortably as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by peachplumpear View Post
    but don't be surprised if I packrat all my cash and head to hills within the next ten years!
    Plan your work, then work your plan.
    1) Emergency fund aka enough for three months of expenses.
    2) Paperwork. Paper and digital copies. Government runs on wasted paper. Birth certs, marriage certs, deeds, loans, insurance, Drivers license, Copy them and store them inside a fire proof box.
    3) Cash on hand. ATMs and cash registers are seldom working in a disaster.
    4) Water. Three days without is lethal just doing nothing, and being comfortable.
    5) Food anything you can eat right out of the can or box without cooking is great. You will especially appreciate during all the stress and frantic action right around and event.
    6) Lists, endless lists. Knowing is comfort though.

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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zinaida View Post
    Better invest in an extra can opener too.....would suck to break the only one you have.
    Done and done.

    *edit* I just found four in the kitchen. I think there are two in my camper. There is a p-38 in the glove box and another on my leather man. Ha ha!
    Last edited by ArmySGT.; 07-06-2011 at 06:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    I used to have pretty much this exact plan & theory when I was younger. Every once in awhile I still say that if I end up an old maid I'm going to buy myself a mountain, build my house on top, & keep a rifle to shoot anyone who comes up. LOL

    Anyhow, Melonie is "on target" with why this doesn't work. While you may have good intentions for yourself, not everyone shares those good intentions for you. You could save up all sorts of food, but it won't keep people from stealing it. You could save up tons of money, but if a disaster happens & people aren't sure when it will end then they aren't likely to sell anything. Even in the worst case scenarios, sometimes people simply do things to keep themselves alive. Think of the people on the Uruguayan rugby team that had their plane crash in the Andes, which inspired the 1993 Hollywood movie "Alive". They ate the bodies of the dead to survive. The passengers ate "no relatives, no one with injuries that might have become infected", the rest were fair game. People might say they wouldn't do something, but we are still animals at heart... we require certain necessities & we have the ability to move/act to get them fulfilled. Years after the Uruguayan team crash another group encountered the same thing in the Patagonia mountains. After their pilot was killed the people from the plane considered eating him. Probably the only difference between the two groups was temperature, time it took to be rescued, & better technology. The Uruguayan team took 72 days to rescue.

    Read more:
    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...#ixzz1RMjRLJI8
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,366317,00.html

    The Times magazine article on the topic of the Rugby team also stated:

    "At first relatives of the dead were morally outraged that the bodies had been desecrated by cannibalism. From the viewpoint of Christian ethics, though, it was not certain that the men on the mountainside had sinned by eating the flesh of their dead companions. By and large, Roman Catholic moral theologians agreed that the act was justified under the circumstances. A few perhaps extravagantly, even likened the situation to the central act of the Eucharist, where the faithful consume the body and blood of Christ under the species of bread and wine."

    This goes back to the theories of evolution vs creation, but if you believe that we were created by something external (God, Allah, God/Godess, whatever) then you probably would agree that if we weren't meant to be able to survive extreme situations then we wouldn't have the capability to make decisions & to move of free will.

    There's also the good old argument that if your family was starving, your children about to die, would you steal for them? I hear countless times people say "yes" to this. Most societies consider theft to be both un-ethical/un-moral, but they will freely admit that they would steal to keep their children alive. If they are willing to steal for their children I doubt that they'd pass up the opportunity to steal food when hungry enough, or blankets/shelter when cold enough. The key word there being "enough", the breaking point for people isn't the same. Some people though are more willing to give into their needs faster, very few people would actually turn down the opportunity at something if they know the other alternative is death. Heck, for that matter look at the "Donner Party"! That was even worse than the Uruguayan team. They were trying to figure out which of the living should die in order for the rest to survive. Patrick Dolan, who first suggested it, was the one that the group first ate from... but he died after two others... so the group did initially try to hold out on eating. They did a lottery, which Dolan lost, but no one could bear to kill him. He was the next to die, apparently of his own accord. The group probably felt that eating his body was okay because Dolan himself had suggesting eating a group member, & he'd lost the lottery. Three people didn't want to eat, 1 of which gave in a few days later. The 2 who chose not to eat the bodies then were the ones that others began considering... & eventually two were shot as meals. It's speculated that some members may have gone as far as digging up the dead to eat off of them. Think about it, the bodies could have easily been diseased! What's ironic about all of this is the fact that the Native Americans had stolen ox from the group & generally harassed them, yet once they discovered that the group was considering cannibalism the Native Americans disappeared!

    I think the lesson to learn from all of this when you look back through history is that being over-prepared is far better than being "prepared the following can all make a difference in extreme survival cases:

    - Gender: females are often protected by the group

    - Age: Between a feeble but healthy senior & a baby people will often opt to take out the older because they're past their prime & they are bigger which is helpful when caring for a group.

    - Family size: We tend to be the most protective of our own family so in extreme cases people take from strangers, followed by non-relatives they know, then relatives. A few of the Graves children from the Donner party have talked about taking from their own mother after she had died of natural causes because she was the only option for food.

    - Not passive about surviving: those who turned down the flesh of the first could be seen as not caring enough about their own life/survival. If they are around other people who are determined to survive, those other people are going to start figuring that the person is going to die anyway... so they may as well just "take them out" to help themselves sustain, particularly in cases where its giving up the benefit of one for the benefit (living without starving to death) of many.

    While we never know what is going to happen it's best to be not just prepared, but over-prepared & show you are protective of what is yours & be willing to protect your own interest! Not only are we responsible for ourselves, but we could end up being responsible for others (even outside our immediate families) in order to survive. People are more likely to steal from someone who has more that could be given (unless there is a higher risk like an alarm going off or being shot), in extreme cases sharing what you have freely (while still protecting what you actually need for personal survival) could help things from turning sour sooner. In other words, having more could simply "buy" you more time where the larger community is able to survive without giving into temptations/needs.

    To answer the question though, I used to be more of a naturalist, but now I would consider myself a survivalist. I used to think that if something were to happen, say I was attacked by a bear, that I wouldn't really want to kill it so I wouldn't fight back. Over the years though I have just seen that their is so much evil around & people who don't care about others. I've changed my tune a lot & now believe that if something happens where it's between my life & something/someone else where they attacked me, that tells me that they don't value my life.... & probably not the lives of others. I do value life, therefore between me & the someone/something I would have full intentions of protecting myself to survive.


    By the way, I think I have 5 or 6 can openers... if anyone gets desperate enough to steal one, I'm willing to share a few so no extreme measures are needed.

    Oh, & ArmySGT is right, being "self reliant" is totally different than being a survivalist... although I suppose one could TRY to be both. I'm not sure that really could work out though in the "extreme" situations. Maybe a self reliant communal community though?
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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kylea2 View Post
    Oh, & ArmySGT is right, being "self reliant" is totally different than being a survivalist... although I suppose one could TRY to be both. I'm not sure that really could work out though in the "extreme" situations. Maybe a self reliant communal community though?
    The commune idea gets recycled so often it should be a warning against it. Athenian democracies don't hold up. That and people are people. People will always try to game the system, soon the commune has 3 farmers and 17 musicians.

    Lot's of debate on "buy in" systems, where your money up front, makes everyone more of a stake holder in the success of the community. though I feel these become just as oppressive as a HOA.

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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    Quote Originally Posted by peachplumpear View Post
    .......And yeah I imagine it would get boring. But I would make use of technology till it was extinct, or cut off or whatever. And I do love to stockpile books. They can always become kindling

    And Melonie what was phase 3? (I'm resisting quoting the south park underpants gnomes SO hard right now)
    Naaah, I gotta disagree. I think you are underestimating how wonderful nature/the world can be and you will probably find talents in yourself and your friends/family. You figure, back in the day people entertained themselves pretty well.

    I think you are on the right track and I would LOOOOVE to do the off-the-grid thing. Check out this link to hook up with more people doing it too. http://www.city-data.com/forum/frugal-living/ http://www.city-data.com/forum/self-...-preparedness/
    “What a caterpillar calls the end of the world we call a butterfly.” - ECKHART TOLLE

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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    I watched a documentary on survivalists by Louis Theroux in his typically 'not taking them seriously' style.
    It was really informative though and I really liked the sense of community that 'Almost Heaven' had.
    They say it's the safest place in America, safe to defend, the community is spread over 10 miles and doesn't have 'natural disasters'.

    It's here if anyone is interested
    http://video.uk.msn.com/watch/video/...ills/12gy9v1mu

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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    Well well well
    Almost Heaven didn't work out too well for them
    http://www.rickross.com/reference/mi...militia88.html

    I wonder what happend to Mike Adams he was really cool

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    Featured Member lemiwinks31's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    Quote Originally Posted by peachplumpear View Post
    and melonie what was phase 3? (i'm resisting quoting the south park underpants gnomes so hard right now)



    profit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    I didn't read everything...

    but my husband has a complete stock pile of stuff for us "when the world ends" or "when the world goes ape shit". He realllly needs to lay off the survivalist sites sometimes lol

    I think he's a little crazy, but...I guess it's better to have and not need then to need and not have.

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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    Quote Originally Posted by _Avery_ View Post
    I didn't read everything...

    but my husband has a complete stock pile of stuff for us "when the world ends" or "when the world goes ape shit". He realllly needs to lay off the survivalist sites sometimes lol

    I think he's a little crazy, but...I guess it's better to have and not need then to need and not have.

    If I was you I would seriously look into the food issue. Your husband may mean well but, what he stockpiled might not be what those youngsters would eat or drink.

    Like powdered milk for example. Is there enough? For drinks, cereal, to bake with?

    Crisco? Baking bread, biscuit, skillet doughnuts.

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    Default Re: Are you a survivalist at heart? A naturalist?

    And Melonie what was phase 3? (I'm resisting quoting the south park underpants gnomes SO hard right now)
    Actually, phase 3 is something that I can't afford to do myself ... and haven't found the 'right partners' to tackle as a 'community'. Phase 3 involves having a 100ft + sailboat, with virtually everything on board to actually be and remain self-sufficient ( from solar panels to fishing nets to a greenhouse to LAWS rockets / 50 cal ! ) if necessary. The idea with phase 3 is that things won't 'heat up' equally in all parts of the world at the same time ... thus you simply weigh anchor and 'get the hell out of dodge' if the local 'temperature' gets uncomfortably warm. But this option requires BIG money ... and is still potentially vulnerable ( remember pirates attacking oil tankers ? )

    As to the South Park simile, one of the most 'valuable' hoarded commodities in the future might be tampons / sanitary napkins ! Can you imagine what the underpants factor will be like after 5 years of 'Mad Max' conditions where tampons / sanitary napkins and laundry detergent and 'Fruit of the Loom' products are no longer readily available ? How many of you out there know how to make soap from animal fat and wood ashes ( assuming of course you also know how to hunt / trap the animal to extract the animal fat from) plus know how to sew new underwear out of a carefully hoarded bolt of cotton cloth ?


    You could save up tons of money, but if a disaster happens & people aren't sure when it will end then they aren't likely to sell anything
    This is actually a frequently touched on topic in Dollar Den ... but not in the way most Americans typically imagine. Yes as a first step if a 'Mad Max' scenario occurs the technology enabling bank withdrawls / ATM withdrawls etc. will quickly fail ... leaving people to survive on the amount of 'cash' they have on hand. But the second step in a 'Mad Max' scenario is that, between looting of stores, hijacking of supply trucks etc. today's 'taken for granted' situation of surplus supplies always being generally available will quickly vanish. And a third step in a 'Mad Max' scenario will be the unwillingness of ( former ) workers to leave their families unprotected while they go off to work for 8 hours, meaning that the production of additional goods for sale ( from guns to pasteurized milk ) will come to a rapid halt. And even if such additional goods remained available, extremely few workers would be willing to brave being killed via hijackers while trying to deliver them, or to brave being killed by looters while trying to sell them. This will leave 'hoarded' supplies already in private hands as the only REAL source.

    So now comes the TRUE problem. Why would someone who had 'hoarded' supplies while they were still available be willing to exchange something of very real value ( from foodstuffs to tools to guns to medicine ) for green pieces of paper that, in and of themselves, aren't good for ANYTHING ? Simple answer is ... they're not !!! What they ARE likely to do is to barter an exchange, for something else of real value. In an optimistic scenario this would mean that some form of currency with real inherent value ( like gold or silver ) will still remain in use. In a more pessimistic scenario this would mean that the exchange of essential goods ( like trading ammunition for food ) or the rendering of needed 'professional' services ( like trading medical treatment or a blowjob for food or ammo ) would become the only acceptable basis of 'commerce'. So in this sense, having a million US green paper dollars could mean next to nothing under a pessimistic scenario.


    I think you are underestimating how wonderful nature/the world can be and you will probably find talents in yourself and your friends/family. You figure, back in the day people entertained themselves pretty well
    Yes ... but ! Back in the day people were also well enough armed to shoot horse thieves on sight ! Today only the 'horse thieves' have guns !

    As to how wonderful nature can be, you've obviously never tried organic gardening without fertilizers and pesticides !!! And for the most part, disease resistant / highly productive 'hybrid' plants cannot be propagated by their own seed generation. So unless you are sufficiently knowledgeable and sufficiently equipped to 'breed' new hybrids yourself ( which even the 'professional' organic farmers aren't equipped to do ) after a single year you're back to dealing with self propagating but comparatively unproductive and disease susceptible 'heirloom' plant varieties.

    As a side note, consider the implications of US farmland productivity dropping to 1/2 - 1/3rd of the levels we have taken for granted for the past 60 years as the result of infrastructure breakdown bringing an end to the commercial availability of modern fertilizers, pesticides, hybrid seed, diesel fuel and parts for automated farm equipment etc. !!! And that of course assumes that farmers will still be willing to 'invest' the resources into planting their farmland while facing a very real risk that, near harvest time, the 'horse thieves' may descend and steal their harvest !!!


    What hellhole of a state was this?
    New York. However, most of the 'gun control' states have similarly strict hunting / firearms laws. Indeed it is probable that when the S-H-T-F there will be very little law enforcement of ANY kind in these states ... since the 'criminal' element will basically be the only heavily armed group after official law enforcement is forced to concentrate on defending their own families as opposed to the general population. I would also add that, even if the 'law abiding citizens' were to finally conclude that they damn well better start arming themselves, and even if they were somehow able to still obtain guns after the S-H-T-F scenario actually begins, USING firearms effectively is a practiced skill that simply doesn't develop overnight.


    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 07-24-2011 at 06:05 AM.

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