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Thread: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

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    Senior Member twigs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    Quote Originally Posted by jimboe7373 View Post
    ^^^To the above few posts. I am not a liberal and I'm not a conservative, I feel the 2 group have become so isolated and there is such vitrolic these days that you either join or get lumped into one or the other, and then fresh, outside the box ideas become harder and harder to propose and implement.
    there is something even more significant in the two party system in America though. though there are two polarized political ends, each has entirely contradictory goals in the most important issues.

    The Republicans claim they want less government but then they hand endless amounts of political power to private industry and the rich while they also increase deficits and debt that the American tax payer has to deal with.

    The Democrats claim they want liberty for all, they run a better military and they can balance budgets but they have a very bad habit of increasing pointless public spending just because they have money to work with and their process of making choices takes way to long.

    Somewhere in the middle of those two is sanity but for the time being I take the lesser of the two evils and stick with Democrats. I don't care how bad public spending gets as long as the budget is balanced, we aren in debt, jobs stay here and we do not return to the era of the Robber Barons.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimboe7373 View Post
    Welfare should be given to those who truly need it, any corruptrion or fraud with it should be punished extremely harshly. It should not just be doled out as a gift, to receive benefits people must log a certain amount of hours doing community service of some kind. Deliberately make it where the service they must do is just slightly worse or harder than work to keep them from getting comfortable and avoiding job-hunting.
    That gets into what republicans would call socialism even though not even three decades ago they had no problem putting people to work and hard labor in Prisons until that was called "unfair". You have to then regulate what they work on, how much work is done, you will get private companies saying you are under cutting them on projects they should be paying employees for. It becomes a costly mess.
    What we need is a New "new deal". An entirely self contained national government project with an actual direction in new and better infrastructure.
    Both Union and non-union companies in road construction in this country have proven useless when dealing with state and national contracts. They end up costing tax payers almost as much as our terrible health care system does.
    We should phase them out or make them respect better contract standards while also allowing at least 40% of the nations road infrastructure work to be done on a national public work program. We would have plenty of money for it if we used the money from useless farm subsidies.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimboe7373 View Post
    Military spending is such a vital thing to our national interests. It should be considered with incredible devotion because of it's importance and given all kinds of special treatment. But, in exchange for that special devotion etc., it should conduct itself with the very hightest levels of morality and integrity- from submitting budgets to costs and almost every other facet. Any person violating that almost sacred trust should be punished extremely, extremely severely.
    I would trust the military to spend my money if they could spend it with some ethics. They waste just as much as a democrat with too much to blow on public spending. A predator drone in parts, materials and construction actually costs no more than a few hundred thousand dollars yet somehow it winds up a few million when the US military gets a hold of it. It is the same with NASA. Any operation that piss poor with budgeting and cost control is simply ineffective in it's task. It is a huge disservice to the tax payer and the people in uniform. A lot fewer people would be dying on the battle field if we were spending smartly.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimboe7373 View Post
    I would advocate going acroos the board and putting in accountability in as many department and areas that we can. Have some rewards for doing a good jog and have very bad penalties for incompetence and have massive penalties for corruption or deliberate deciet or theft.

    If the parameters are set properly and people are aware of what they have to lose and gain, the ones who do bad things will soon stick out way more than they do no, and be much easier to contain.
    You will have a hard time arguing accountability and spending ethics with either union or private workers in the government.
    What is needed is regulation. Which is again where the GOP will piss and moan that you can not do any more of.
    A good point about the adult entertainment industry:

    http://youtu.be/2TdEYqOZY_E

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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    Quote Originally Posted by twigs View Post
    Outsourcing is something the GOP has promoted for decades now. It keeps their primary voter and lobbying base (the rich) supporting them and it keeps them from having to get into serious issues with American workers like health care. To stop outsourcing simply get the TEA party and the GOP to stop awarding the rich for outsourcing and sending all our commodities and market center to other countries. It is one of the hardest things to do politically at the moment but it is worth it in the end.

    I am a teacher and I haven't had serious work for about FIVE years now. So instead of being like most liberal cry baby teachers and squatting on welfare for years on end, I simply got into other work and started teaching independently. I can rent a room at UW's mini course and make my own money teaching final cut pro on an adult ed platform or as an after school project and make my own money. Though I've gotten a lot better work as a consultant over the yeas. Granted, a high school English teacher wouldn't be able to do that but there is always something else people can do. It is one of the worst excuses to stay on welfare simply because you think since you became a teacher that is all you can and should be doing.
    Tell that to a family on welfare who's earning parent are both unable to work because of illness or injury. If a person can work, they will work. If a person can work and they simply do not, they waste everyone's time and money.
    I think you misunderstand me, the teacher I mentioned is not on welfare. In fact none of the people I mentioned are on welfare. However they are unemployed and living on savings or doing odd jobs.

    I'm no fan of welfare because it isn't set up to help people like this, but the reality is we are losing a middle class. Sure, people can go into other fields, I've done this myself, but others can't. What if they can't afford to go back to school or take additional training? I don't know how the system is set up everywhere but in Illinois if you have a degree you don't qualify for re training. So if you find yourself unemployed with a degree you are screwed. The fact is too there are just not enough jobs for everyone and until we fix the outsourcing problem there won't be.

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    Senior Member twigs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    I think you misunderstand me, the teacher I mentioned is not on welfare. In fact none of the people I mentioned are on welfare. However they are unemployed and living on savings or doing odd jobs.

    I'm no fan of welfare because it isn't set up to help people like this, but the reality is we are losing a middle class. Sure, people can go into other fields, I've done this myself, but others can't. What if they can't afford to go back to school or take additional training? I don't know how the system is set up everywhere but in Illinois if you have a degree you don't qualify for re training. So if you find yourself unemployed with a degree you are screwed. The fact is too there are just not enough jobs for everyone and until we fix the outsourcing problem there won't be.
    It doesn't require getting more education to keep work. There are still plenty of jobs a person can get. Especcially if they have an education of any kind. Just having an actual high school diploma instead of a GED or equivalent is a HUGE improvement over the average. You can get other work. They just won't pay as much. But they won't pay as little as they would be getting on welfare either.
    It sucks but then it is no more than we have put so many other countries through for decades while we were and still are the largest consumers of any and all resources world wide.
    The American hunger for "things" and the standards of disposable income we have pushed as the common norm have been entirely unrealistic since the 1950's.
    We have been passing along debt for a very long time. Unfortunately the rich have known this for a very long time as well. Giving themselves huge tax breaks is just part of their solution. After hey have grown tired of moving from state to state to avoid the poverty they will simply live in other countries away from the problems they helped create.
    But we helped create them too by not seeing all this sooner. It might just take a huge world wide depression for people to wake up. The GOP is certainly ready to make that happen.
    A good point about the adult entertainment industry:

    http://youtu.be/2TdEYqOZY_E

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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    But this depends on the area. I'm seeing entry level admin jobs requiring a degree and experience. Sure, there are jobs like nursing assistant but if this isn't someone's thing (it's not mine)then they are back at square one. The fact is there aren't enough jobs out there for everyone and employers do not like to hire overqualified.

    I will say though that one of the biggest mistakes people make, especially older is not to keep up with trends. One of the largest increase in jobs is social media ones so this is something I am learning more about. I learned website design many years after school because marketing jobs now require it.

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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    I don't care how bad public spending gets as long as the budget is balanced, we aren in debt, jobs stay here and we do not return to the era of the Robber Barons.
    As you probably already realize, there is arguably only one way this could happen in the real world ... by printing up so many trillions of brand new dollars that the US dollar's purchasing power falls to 1/4 of what it is today. This would allow public spending to continue at current levels without the US gov't having to 'borrow' additional money. This would make 'all in' US labor costs competitive with the rest of the world, providing a strong incentive for US jobs growth.

    However, it would also mean that with a stagnant paycheck / social security check, that US families / retirees would have to figure out how to rearrange their finances to afford $15 per gallon gasoline, $250 a week grocery bills etc.


    After hey have grown tired of moving from state to state to avoid the poverty they will simply live in other countries away from the problems they helped create.
    Yup an increasing number of them are becoming my neighbors way south of the border ... or at least a chunk of their money is !!!

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    Senior Member pollywogg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    I'm so happy that you brought up hippies! One of my favorite subjects!

    Let's not make assumptions & sweeping statements about hippies please. Some people with the hippie mindset, and some actual hippies who lived on hippie communes, in the 60's, that I know personally, are actually quite business saavy and pay plenty of taxes without taking advantage of any kind of entitlements, there are many who live an organic lifestyle and go to great lengths to take responsibility for their own health ... others may still be on acid too LOL, I don't know any of those ... but, I find that the non-acid dropping hippies are still divided on conservative/liberal sides/issues.

    It's simply not accurate to imply that hippies automatically support and take advantage of welfare. Some are more interested in evoking change through government action and others are more interested in evoking change in the behaviors in the private sector, but most of them take responsibility for themselves... most of them are interested in evoking change by doing something ... like Greenpeace for eg. I'm a private sector side hippie, but there needs to be rules and they need to be upheld, and that's just the way it is.

    I'd like to get some clarity about what the essence of hippiness really is about. A real hippie understands this principle:

    If you behave in a way that benefits or does no harm to the welfare of others, you are more likely to be well yourself or simply put... karma.

    The hippie movement of the 60's began as a departure from the interdependent system of government and corporations that ignore karma while they foster unhealthy levels of consumerism and allow for intolerable social injustice & other atrocities. While most people understand karma others understand it better as "responsibility that comes with freedom".

    As more and more people understand the importance of karma/responsibility and apply it to business practices and consumer choices ... the economy will re-stabilize itself and if sustainability attitudes carry on through the generations we may very well achieve an acceptable level of long term homeostasis regardless of intervention from the government ... people will continue to live and some will struggle more than others ... some will be more willing to help the strugglers than others ... I have a lot of confidence that with every passing generation, we will become stronger and better.

    peace

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    Veteran Member SupaByoch's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    Buffet has pledged the vast majority of his wealth - more like 40 billion - to charitable causes. This is three orders of magnitude greater than the additional tax you would have him pay to the IRS for the year. So he's on solid ground ethically.

    James
    My point wasn't about questioning his ethics. I was simply saying that if he feels so strongly that he should pay the same 36-ish% tax that his employees do, he should do it. That would sure make the point, wouldn't it?

    Agreed wholeheartedly on cutting spending as well as raising revenues from those who can afford it most. They can start by ending this retarded-ass "war" that's been basically doing nothing but siphoning money away from the American people and into the pockets of certain "special" folks.


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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    Agreed wholeheartedly on cutting spending as well as raising revenues from those who can afford it most. They can start by ending this retarded-ass "war" that's been basically doing nothing but siphoning money away from the American people and into the pockets of certain "special" folks.
    Not that I'm personally advocating anything, but there are a number of 'experts' out there who would point out that America's military presence in the Middle East is the only thing that is keeping US gasoline prices from rising to twice the current level ( as the result of another Arab Spring disrupting Saudi oil production ). US military presence in other parts of the world - prime example South Korea - also arguably means that US consumers can continue to buy Hyundai cars and Samsung appliances at 'rock bottom' price levels etc.

    My point simply is that US military policy, with US military spending as a 'cost' of implementing that policy, provides a number of economic advantages for Americans. Massive cutbacks in military spending, and the resulting changes in US military policy plus reactions from adjacent countries presently affected / restrained by that US military policy, will result in cost increases to Americans in other areas !!!

    As a matter of gov't economic planning, history shows that gov'ts ALWAYS underestimate economic 'reactions' to the gov't policy changes that they propose / implement. In fact, a 'poster child' example of this was just announced ...



    (snip)"California revenue fell short of budget estimates by $541 million or 9.2 percent last month, the first of the 2012 fiscal year, the state Finance Department reported.

    The data was in line with figures from Controller John Chiang, who said Aug. 9 that cash receipts for the month missed the forecast by $538.8 million. Chiang said the miss may mean further budget cuts are needed for fiscal 2012. (snip)

    (snip)"Chiang, a Democrat, warned of “drastic” cuts to universities, home health care and social programs if the trend continued. A series of “triggers” written into the most- populous state’s $86 billion general-fund budget would cut spending in those areas as well as libraries if revenue falls $1 billion short of plan. A $2 billion gap would mean a seven-day cut in the school year and an end to busing subsidies.

    New forecasts for revenue in the current spending plan will be drawn up in November and December “based on the economic and cash data available at those times,” H.D. Palmer, a Finance Department spokesman, said by e-mail. The new forecasts “will determine whether the ‘trigger’ budget reductions will be implemented.” (snip)


    The basic point of course was that the state of California ran budget projections based on sustained higher tax rates and comparatively small state spending reductions. However, 'real world' net results came out 1/2 billion short of gov't estimates for the single month of July ! While state officials would like to 'blame' the shortfall on non-issues like the 'timing of deposits', the same 'experts' would tell you that falling california income tax revenues, in conjunction with rising california social welfare benefit costs, are the main issues. The 'experts' would also note that falling California income tax revenues and rising California social welfare benefit costs were both reactive results of previous state economic policy changes ( i.e. raising state tax rates even higher while refusing to make significant state spending cuts ).

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-17-2011 at 08:40 AM.

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    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    1. Nothing is stopping Warren, Bill or any other super- rich person from writing a check to the IRS based on a tax rate that they consider to be more "fair".

    2. To further Mel's excellent explanation, if we returned to Clinton's tax rates ( a top rate of 39.6 % ) it would barely make a dent in the current deficit. Estimates of the additional revenue that would result average out to about $80 billion a year. Likewise, blaming our current National Debt on Bush's tax cuts is equally superficial. Yes, there was an initial decline in revenues thanks to a recession and the cuts but revenues eventually exceeded what they had been under Clinton. The REAL reasons for our current debt are : two wars including a LOT of internal boondoggling in the name of "national security" , NCLB , a prescription drug benefit and exploding entitlements.

    3. The Republicans are getting a bad rap. Most of the sane ones recognize that we must have more revenues. However they are justifiably leery of trading tax increases for ephemeral spending cuts. History has proven that the tax increases go into effect but the cuts never materialize. They want to see the cuts FIRST ! That being said, the fact remains that we can never just grow our way out of our current debt ; or tax our way out of it or cut our way out of it. We can't even inflate our way out of it UNLESS we'd like to duplicate Brazil in the 1990's ; Israel in the 1980's or Zimbabwe most recently. Yes, a little inflation might help us out in the short term but again history teaches that it is impossible to just be a little bit pregnant. It took us over a decade to put the inflation genie back into the bottle back as Volcker finally did back in the early 80's. He did it by cranking up short term interest rates to unbearable levels resulting in a severe recession.

    4. What I can't understand is the mental block the Democrats are evidencing. They could go along with simplifying the tax code and eliminating all the deductions and loopholes but refuse to do it. Why ? This is the most underreported part of the current story. Some of the hardest fighters for, and biggest protectors of, various loopholes are DEMOCRATS and the lamestream media lets them get away with it.

    5. We need economic growth , more revenue and spending restraint if are ever going to bring our debt to a manageable level. Instead we get nuts like Paul Krugman facetiously advocating a defense program against space aliens. I am not making this up. He said it on Sunday on Fareed Zakaria's CNN program. He was trying to one up Zakaria who suggested hiring people to dig holes and fill them in. Obviously neither was serious but they were serious in defending Keynesian economics and government spending.

    6. As for oil prices they are creeping back up after falling almost $30 a barrel. While events in the Middle East certainly affect the world price, U.S. oil prices are just as , if not more affected, by Obama's blatant hostility to the oil biz in general and drilling in particular.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 08-17-2011 at 10:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    You could get better off citizens to pay a higher percentage of taxes if....

    A) Have 1 (Okay maybe 2 federal tax rates) no other Fica taxes.
    B) Treat all income (Passive or active) the same.
    C) Remove all deductions (Mortgage interest, charitable donations, dependents)


    This would allow people to do their own taxes......It would also keep the govt from constantly picking favorites with the tax code.

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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    The ultimate goal of the Republican leadership is to bankrupt the U.S. in order to get rid of Social Security and Medicaid. Republicans want a zero tax, zero regulation environment with a 2% rich and every one else in grinding poverty. They only want to spend money on military adventures around the world, ie, murdering hundreds of thousands of people and stealing their resources for the rich. Republicans worship the rich as Gods and don't give a fuck about the rest of humanity. I think the Republicans will ultimately succeed in bringing down this country. I mean, that's their goal. "Starve the Beast" unless it's the military beast, then feed the beast.

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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveSmith View Post
    The ultimate goal of the Republican leadership is to bankrupt the U.S. in order to get rid of Social Security and Medicaid. Republicans want a zero tax, zero regulation environment with a 2% rich and every one else in grinding poverty. They only want to spend money on military adventures around the world, ie, murdering hundreds of thousands of people and stealing their resources for the rich. Republicans worship the rich as Gods and don't give a fuck about the rest of humanity. I think the Republicans will ultimately succeed in bringing down this country. I mean, that's their goal. "Starve the Beast" unless it's the military beast, then feed the beast.
    Can't you do better than posting a tired out Dem talking point ? If the Republicans really did what you claim they want to do, they would never get anyone to vote for them.

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    Senior Member twigs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    As you probably already realize, there is arguably only one way this could happen in the real world ... by printing up so many trillions of brand new dollars that the US dollar's purchasing power falls to 1/4 of what it is today. This would allow public spending to continue at current levels without the US gov't having to 'borrow' additional money. This would make 'all in' US labor costs competitive with the rest of the world, providing a strong incentive for US jobs growth.

    However, it would also mean that with a stagnant paycheck / social security check, that US families / retirees would have to figure out how to rearrange their finances to afford $15 per gallon gasoline, $250 a week grocery bills etc.
    That is hardly a scenario with such a contrived singular solution. Why print more money when you can simply take back control of the commodities and market center? We did it before when we ousted the Robber barons. though not as effectively as we should have to solve the problem for good but we had the general idea, just not the political inspiration to follow though as much as we needed. We have that chance now.
    It WILL have to take a fair tax code for the rich and regulations on trade.
    But that goes two ways. If you want the hippies to stop bleeding money on useless public welfare and projects then you have to be fair and responsible with the economy, taxes and regulations.
    You can't have one or the other and maintain a sustainable economy. There will always be inflation, infrastructures will always need service, the rich will cut corners and cost everyone more and there will always be poor who will cost everyone more as well. These are FACTS. Addressing them each in ways that benefit the rest has always worked. Just look at every Democratic administration over the last 50 years compared to their GOP counterparts. The dems averaged lowering the deficit by at least 5% per term year while the GOP averages a 10% increase per term year with ever president. It was at least serviceable until Bush Jr. Came along and blew it out of the water.

    Printing more baseless money is just as blind a solution as hammering down union barganning without even addressing the waste in public coffers or the union regulations first. That is just way to short sighted and stupid. Which is one reason the TEA party is getting kicked out of Wisconsin. Well that and it turns out half of them are pedophiles and pervs who turn around and spend more of the public's money reguardless of what they say they will do and the other half are nothing but big money Washington lobbyist yes men.

    Those kind of people offer no real solutions.

    Now, if the GOP of today was more like the GOP of 1854 things would be very different. But that GOP hasn't existed since 1920.
    A good point about the adult entertainment industry:

    http://youtu.be/2TdEYqOZY_E

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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    Entitlements/welfare seems to have caught interest in this thread... I love this subject too.

    I can see how people get caught up in a dependent cycle with welfare when job opps are slim and healthcare costs are exhorbitant and PP0's are no longer accessible to the average citizen and even people with money would rather just not have it. Here's what I'm seeing in AZ:

    A few people I know that receive food stamps said they are getting less than they used to and the health care is cutting back on coverages. They've also recently put more limits on eligibility than they had before. Our state was hit harder than most states after the real estate fiasco and our system is being flooded like never before with applications for benefits. And I'm sure there has been plenty of fraud going on prior to now because everyone I knew had awesome benefits. And it's historically been very easy to get these benefits. On top of all that, we have overall low wages here that have remained virtually unchanged for 20 years, while few employers offer healthcare benefits and the cost of PPO's has skyrocketed.

    Our welfare healthcare system here is literally 100 percent free and the coverage is better than Blue Cross. I was on it for a short time, but am not now. For over 10 years I worked my ass off to pay for my health insurance and all the co pays (and everything else I provided with little to no financial help from the dad) and every year the premium kept going up and up.

    PPO premiums are OOC... 10 years ago, I paid $300 a month for the best Blue Cross coverage you could get for one adult and two children. It was great and people were complaining about health care back then! That same coverage has risen to about $700 per month today and there are still limitations on coverage and copays and deductibles. I can make pretty decent money as a stripper, but I refuse. I'd rather set $700 aside every month and I'll just pay off any exhorbitant hospital bills myself. I'm looking at HSA's now actually. And unfortunately, Obamacare has taken away some of the things that were attractive benefits on those, why I don't know.

    About the food stamps. Here's one way to cut unecessary spending ... do not allow the food stamps to be used for food that has no health value like soda, candy, ice cream, sugary cereals, chips etc ... seriously, the food stamps are supposed to help provide people with necessary nourishment. Not only that, but those kinds of foods encourage disease in the body and affects behavior and poor eating habits contribute to the need for healthcare... poor eating/exercise habits are in the top 3 of contributors to death according to a report by the CDC I read an article on. Need to look into that claim more closely. I heard about some controversy over this idea in another state ... NY, I think. Seriously, why would anyone object to omitting those kind of food items?

    Here is the mindset. I truly believe this is what keeps people on the system and keeps them from reaching independence... If I had to choose between a job that paid me $500 more per month and one that paid less and kept me on that system... I'd keep the lower paying job with that kind of margin. If I were offered even $1200 more per month at a different job or with a raise, etc... and had to pay healthcare out of pocket, I'd still consider keeping the lower paying job that most likely comes with less responsibility/stress and investment on time. I need to be with my children. They need my time and attention. And most people's incomes do not increase that drastically and those opps are slim for the majority of peeps in AZ ... and don't get me started on how many strippers I know who are paying off student loans... what the hell did they go to school for? Most people in mainstream jobs receive increases in small increments over time and if one small increment gets you kicked off healthcare and food stamps, you could go into huge debt if you lost it and had to go without and ended up with some crazy hospital bill in between. Hospital fees are exhorbitant here too! I would not even want a raise frankly.

    Another way to decrease the costs of welfare is to order fathers (non custodial) pay more realistic child support... or begin to take a look at fathers incomes more closely when the mothers are receiving the benefits. A lot of people seem to think that if a mother is receiving child support, she somehow won't be eligible for those welfare benefits, but they look at your overall income and even with the child support, most women still qualify for the welfare. The average amount of child support is only $300 per month anyone who has a child or two knows that that just is not that helpful. I get a large amount of child support and with a $10 per hour job, I still qualify. They don't go to the dad and say, hey you need to contribute to the welfare of your family. But, I can see how this would stir up problems for the mothers with the X's who resent contributing already. Thankfully, not everyone is of this mindset, but it seems very common and pretty much all the split couples I know have this issue or worse... those that do get along and work toward the benefit of everyone involved are the exception to the rule.

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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    What's with calling people on welfare hippies? None of the people I knew on welfare were hippies and hippies I knew were not on welfare.


    Quote Originally Posted by pollywogg View Post
    Entitlements/welfare seems to have caught interest in this thread... I love this subject too.

    I can see how people get caught up in a dependent cycle with welfare when job opps are slim and healthcare costs are exhorbitant and PP0's are no longer accessible to the average citizen and even people with money would rather just not have it. Here's what I'm seeing in AZ:

    A few people I know that receive food stamps said they are getting less than they used to and the health care is cutting back on coverages. They've also recently put more limits on eligibility than they had before. Our state was hit harder than most states after the real estate fiasco and our system is being flooded like never before with applications for benefits. And I'm sure there has been plenty of fraud going on prior to now because everyone I knew had awesome benefits. And it's historically been very easy to get these benefits. On top of all that, we have overall low wages here that have remained virtually unchanged for 20 years, while few employers offer healthcare benefits and the cost of PPO's has skyrocketed.

    Our welfare healthcare system here is literally 100 percent free and the coverage is better than Blue Cross. I was on it for a short time, but am not now. For over 10 years I worked my ass off to pay for my health insurance and all the co pays (and everything else I provided with little to no financial help from the dad) and every year the premium kept going up and up.

    PPO premiums are OOC... 10 years ago, I paid $300 a month for the best Blue Cross coverage you could get for one adult and two children. It was great and people were complaining about health care back then! That same coverage has risen to about $700 per month today and there are still limitations on coverage and copays and deductibles. I can make pretty decent money as a stripper, but I refuse. I'd rather set $700 aside every month and I'll just pay off any exhorbitant hospital bills myself. I'm looking at HSA's now actually. And unfortunately, Obamacare has taken away some of the things that were attractive benefits on those, why I don't know.

    About the food stamps. Here's one way to cut unecessary spending ... do not allow the food stamps to be used for food that has no health value like soda, candy, ice cream, sugary cereals, chips etc ... seriously, the food stamps are supposed to help provide people with necessary nourishment. Not only that, but those kinds of foods encourage disease in the body and affects behavior and poor eating habits contribute to the need for healthcare... poor eating/exercise habits are in the top 3 of contributors to death according to a report by the CDC I read an article on. Need to look into that claim more closely. I heard about some controversy over this idea in another state ... NY, I think. Seriously, why would anyone object to omitting those kind of food items?

    Here is the mindset. I truly believe this is what keeps people on the system and keeps them from reaching independence... If I had to choose between a job that paid me $500 more per month and one that paid less and kept me on that system... I'd keep the lower paying job with that kind of margin. If I were offered even $1200 more per month at a different job or with a raise, etc... and had to pay healthcare out of pocket, I'd still consider keeping the lower paying job that most likely comes with less responsibility/stress and investment on time. I need to be with my children. They need my time and attention. And most people's incomes do not increase that drastically and those opps are slim for the majority of peeps in AZ ... and don't get me started on how many strippers I know who are paying off student loans... what the hell did they go to school for? Most people in mainstream jobs receive increases in small increments over time and if one small increment gets you kicked off healthcare and food stamps, you could go into huge debt if you lost it and had to go without and ended up with some crazy hospital bill in between. Hospital fees are exhorbitant here too! I would not even want a raise frankly.

    Another way to decrease the costs of welfare is to order fathers (non custodial) pay more realistic child support... or begin to take a look at fathers incomes more closely when the mothers are receiving the benefits. A lot of people seem to think that if a mother is receiving child support, she somehow won't be eligible for those welfare benefits, but they look at your overall income and even with the child support, most women still qualify for the welfare. The average amount of child support is only $300 per month anyone who has a child or two knows that that just is not that helpful. I get a large amount of child support and with a $10 per hour job, I still qualify. They don't go to the dad and say, hey you need to contribute to the welfare of your family. But, I can see how this would stir up problems for the mothers with the X's who resent contributing already. Thankfully, not everyone is of this mindset, but it seems very common and pretty much all the split couples I know have this issue or worse... those that do get along and work toward the benefit of everyone involved are the exception to the rule.
    Agree with you. Here in Illinois the food stamp system is often abused and what many do is buy a product on stamp, get the money back, then buy cigarettes or alcohol. I've seen this often. I've also seen so many obese people on welfare buying junk food. I do not feel this should be allowed, I think only healthy food should be.

    I completely agree that the dad should pay his fair share. This is part of the problem with the system. Too many aren't then they disappeared. I know I've gotten flack for my dislike of single parents but this is why.Too many keep making babies. If we starting going after these guys they would think twice about having babies they support.

    I've had friends on welfare state they'd rather sponge off the assistance than work a minimum wage. They got everything paid for and minimum wage would not, plus minimum wage would often keep them off the system.

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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Can't you do better than posting a tired out Dem talking point ? If the Republicans really did what you claim they want to do, they would never get anyone to vote for them.
    Actually, they have a pretty easy time doing all those things mentioned in the previous post and getting people to vote for them. It's pretty simple actually- make big cuts to education funding which in turn dumbs down the populace, then set up major media outlets in tv, radio and print and constantly put the message out that the oppositions attempts to reign in big business/special interests and protect the average Americans is in fact Socialism. Use unions, minorities and the poor as skapegoats to create a high level of hate and anger, use emotionally devisive issues like abortion, gay marriage and flag burning to further agitate and make your more easily manipulated followers even more angry and presto!- you have lots of people voting Republican, against their best interests.

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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    Quote Originally Posted by jimboe7373 View Post
    Actually, they have a pretty easy time doing all those things mentioned in the previous post and getting people to vote for them. It's pretty simple actually- make big cuts to education funding which in turn dumbs down the populace, then set up major media outlets in tv, radio and print and constantly put the message out that the oppositions attempts to reign in big business/special interests and protect the average Americans is in fact Socialism. Use unions, minorities and the poor as skapegoats to create a high level of hate and anger, use emotionally devisive issues like abortion, gay marriage and flag burning to further agitate and make your more easily manipulated followers even more angry and presto!- you have lots of people voting Republican, against their best interests.
    I know people who vote strictly on issues like abortion and gay marriage and I've told them that these aren't the true issues. The true issues are the economy and the wars. While I am big believer in limiting welfare I am not against all programs. I feel teachers should be paid more (certainly more than administrators), I support libraries, and music and art in school. I have issues with the unions because most I've seen are corrupt but on the other hand the CEOs I've known were also corrupt.

    Speaking of education there was just an article in the paper today where it stated 75% of all high school graduates are not prepared for college. That truly scares me.

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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    Why print more money when you can simply take back control of the commodities and market center?
    A lot of things have changed in the past 100 years ... among them commodities and stock shares being traded in China ... exchanges over which the USA has ZERO dictatorial power !

    Or are you proposing erecting a virtual 'financial wall' around the USA so that US stock share and commodity prices can be set independently from the 'global economy' valuation ? The former Soviet states can vouch for how well that worked out.

    It's time to face cold hard economic facts ... the American uber-rich, the merely rich, plus American corporations and small businesses, simply can't generate enough tax revenues to create a sustainable system at current levels of social welfare spending if the US gov't is still going to provide some modicum of its constitutionally mandated responsibilities. No amount of negotiation of 'juggling' of gov't accounts or 'slower rates of gov't spending growth' ( which are often but incorrectly referred to as ' spending cuts' ) can effectively create a sustainable system.

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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    A lot of things have changed in the past 100 years ... among them commodities and stock shares being traded in China ... exchanges over which the USA has ZERO dictatorial power !

    Or are you proposing erecting a virtual 'financial wall' around the USA so that US stock share and commodity prices can be set independently from the 'global economy' valuation ? The former Soviet states can vouch for how well that worked out.

    It's time to face cold hard economic facts ... the American uber-rich, the merely rich, plus American corporations and small businesses, simply can't generate enough tax revenues to create a sustainable system at current levels of social welfare spending if the US gov't is still going to provide some modicum of its constitutionally mandated responsibilities. No amount of negotiation of 'juggling' of gov't accounts or 'slower rates of gov't spending growth' ( which are often but incorrectly referred to as ' spending cuts' ) can effectively create a sustainable system.
    There is no way you can solve a financial crisis by hammering away at infrastructure when you have no plan for future revenues or a strong domestic market center in the repeatedly flawed "trickle down" model.
    Do you actually expect millions of Americans to hand over all this political power and tax brakes to a few corporations and "hope" they will return industry and wealth to this country when repeatedly they have always gone the other way, burned us and thrown jobs and money to other countries?

    Just look what they did when we gave the TEA party the chance to try this in Wisconsin. They fucked us, handed out cabinet jobs for over $10k more than the previous employees were working and when they couldn't pass shutting down public security companies or state workers unions they double hired and double billed the state hiring private workers and firms that couldn't even screen out sex offenders and drug addicts from their management. Some of what you describe ARE really good ideas but unfortunately the people trying to implement them don't have the intelligence to even get to the point of actually implementing them without bankrupting us all first.

    A 'commodity' is not just a stock share. It takes WORK and actual INVESTMENT in something. Say for instance one's own country. We lose commodity controls in the US when steel is bought from china or oil we produce is traded at a higher domestic price just because an offshore cartel trades it to US higher. Of course you won't see any American oil company complaining about that or paying their lobbyists and less to keep the GOP lodged right up their ass to keep it all smooth politically.
    Just look at how well OPEC keeps us on our toes in the oil market and they don't even control a commanding share of our oil production. They just have every other major oil producing country on their board. It never surprises me how the GOP is never shocked or stunned or pissed that since OPEC was formed in the 60's they have never brought the US on as a member. Why be a member when every American oil company can just hold us all hostage here and blame it all on OPEC or another war?

    I'm sick to my stomach of having to go back each and every year to vote Democrat simply because the Republican party is so warped and blood thirsty that they can't do anything they say they believe in or run an economy. You know one of my own ancestors was actually at the Ripon protest in 1854. Ask any of these tea party morons or even your average Republican what the significance of Ripon Wisconsin is to the Republican party and they won't have a fucking clue. Because that Republican party died almost 100 years ago.

    This Republican party makes people think that a commodity is only on paper or something that only the super rich in this country or some other country's market center can control anymore. During the depression people didn't just sit down and get lazy. They kept moving and working until we had a stable country again. It is unfortunate but unless we can wake up, it is going to take another hard time of want for most Americans to understand how we got here by not remembering we have been here before. It is ironic as hell that the GOP is represented by an Elephant and they don't even remember where they come from or that this is the same economic model that didn't work 5 years ago and in every GOP administration before that going back to Nixon.

    Einstein's Definition of insanity:
    "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    The Dems may not act as quickly as I like and they can get pretty sloppy sometimes but at least they have original ideas and a damn size better track record of balancing budgets.

    With the failed TEA party Experiment in Wisconsin and their fumbling in the national senate they just can't be trusted and they've already done to much damage to the Republican party in general. Well Fox News has a big hand in that as well but thats apples and oranges at this point. If I was hearing some original ideas or any real plans or ideas for that matter, I would be more inclined to trust or take it seriously.
    A good point about the adult entertainment industry:

    http://youtu.be/2TdEYqOZY_E

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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    During the depression people didn't just sit down and get lazy. They kept moving and working until we had a stable country again.
    Wow, the discussion has come full circle. Indeed during the 30's people who couldn't find work in one part of the country, and businesses that couldn't survive economic conditionis in one part of the country, packed up and moved to another part of the country where economic conditions were better. This is NOT happening today on anywhere near the same scale !!!

    The arguable reasons that individuals are no longer relocating are ... 99 weeks of unemployment benefits, generous social welfare benefits, various other social programs such as mortgage 'renegotiation' etc. Or put another way, high gov't spending makes it possible for long term unemployed to remain 'non-prodictive' for years without sacrificing hugely on their standard of living. But there simply aren't enough tax revenue dollars available from the 'rich' to sustain this level of gov't expenditures.

    The arguable reasons that businesses aren't relocating in volume to other US states are twofold. On the one hand, those businesses realize that they can cut costs far below those of the 'best business climate' US state by moving offshore ... where there isn't any minimum wage, nor employer paid mandatory benefits, nor high US business tax rates, nor high US environmental / worker safety compliance costs to deal with. This is why we now have a surprising number of nominally US companies that have relocated their HQ and/or production facilities offshore ( recent example Evergreen Solar ). On the other hand, some businesses who have attempted to relocate to different states in an effort to succeed economically while still remaining US companies have been 'attacked' by the Federal gov't de-railing their relocation plans / investments ( recent example Boeing ). While not wanting to dwell on the political side, arguably all of the above are the result of policies put forth by one political party ... and it wasn't the republicans.

    Again the political issues are all secondary to the issue of gov't spending levels and gov't tax rates necessary to sustain said spending levels. America arguably passed the 'point of no return' in late 2008 in regard to options for a workable 'real world' solution when gov't policy allowed the use of US taxpayer dollars to bail out selected industries, to subsidize the standard of living of long term unemployed workers, to subsidize the continued employment of gov't workers etc.
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-18-2011 at 03:04 AM.

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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Wow, the discussion has come full circle. Indeed during the 30's people who couldn't find work in one part of the country, and businesses that couldn't survive economic conditionis in one part of the country, packed up and moved to another part of the country where economic conditions were better. This is NOT happening today on anywhere near the same scale !!!
    It didn't do any good. The unemployment rate stayed above 15% through the 1930's. It was only when government greatly increased spending in 1940 that the unemployment rate began to fall significantly.

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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    It didn't do any good. The unemployment rate stayed above 15% through the 1930's. It was only when government greatly increased spending in 1940 that the unemployment rate began to fall significantly.
    Yeah. The necessity of putting most able bodied men into uniform and hiring a lot of women and blacks to do defense work did wonders for the unemployment rate. Plus the demand for hundreds of ships , thousands of planes and tanks not to mention uniforms, food and all sorts of other equipment and supplies. Don't tell me you are joining hands with Paul Krugman and are advocating a massive defense program against space aliens ?

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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    Eric,

    Here are the basic facts:

    Government greatly increased spending in 1940.

    Unemployment fell dramatically in 1940.

    The economy grew dramatically in 1940.


    It's obvious to anyone in the reality based world that the increase in government spending benefited the economy. Instead of acknowledging this you're going to nitpick everything to try to find a way to invalidate these facts because it's against your ideology. As I said before, for conservative ideologues, ideology takes precedence over facts and evidence. The results would have been exactly the same if government spent the same amount of money on something else, such as roads and bridges. You just do not want to acknowledge government spending can be good for the economy because it goes against your ideology.

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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    ^^^ again I'll attempt to make the distinction that, as is extremely relevant to this thread, Americans whose paychecks originate from US taxpayer dollars do not make a net positive contribution to the US budget. Taxing 100% of the paychecks of gov't employees, gov't contractors etc. would only return the same dollars back to the US 'general fund' from which they originated. In the context of this thread, only tax revenues collected from private sector workers / investors / businesses actually makes a net positive tax revenue contribution to the US 'general fund'. But for better or worse, there simply isn't enough additional tax revenues available from the private sector 'rich' ... even at 100% tax rates ... to make a 'dent' in the US gov't budget deficit versus US gov't spending levels given the anemic spending cuts actually implemented by the US gov't so far.

    And in regard to those millionaires ... from the WSJ ...

    (snip)"the real tax news is that there are fewer of both these days. This month the IRS released more detailed tax data for 2009, and the nearby table records the decline of the taxpaying rich.

    In 2007, 390,000 tax filers reported adjusted gross income of $1 million or more and paid $309 billion in taxes. In 2009, there were only 237,000 such filers, a decline of 39%. Almost four of 10 millionaires vanished in two years (snip)


    This of course leads to additional questions as to what actually happened to those 153,000 'missing millionaires'. One possible reason is that they actually saw earnings declines during 2009 which lowered their gross income below the $1 million dollar mark. Another possible reason is that they redirected their investments toward non-taxable investments ( like muni bonds ) thus reducing 'taxable income' below the 1 million mark. Another possible reason is that some number are no longer residents of the USA, either their person or their money.

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    Default Re: Stop coddling the super-rich: Buffett

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Wow, the discussion has come full circle. Indeed during the 30's people who couldn't find work in one part of the country, and businesses that couldn't survive economic conditionis in one part of the country, packed up and moved to another part of the country where economic conditions were better. This is NOT happening today on anywhere near the same scale !!!
    Eventually it will be. A few more years with no real developed solutions and we will have a full on depression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    The arguable reasons that individuals are no longer relocating are ... 99 weeks of unemployment benefits, generous social welfare benefits, various other social programs such as mortgage 'renegotiation' etc. Or put another way, high gov't spending makes it possible for long term unemployed to remain 'non-prodictive' for years without sacrificing hugely on their standard of living. But there simply aren't enough tax revenue dollars available from the 'rich' to sustain this level of gov't expenditures.
    Actually people are on the move already:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26776283...cross-country/

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/08/11...es-nationwide/

    It isn't in the numbers we had in the 30's but it is only a matter of time at this point.

    Also at this point I have to put the breaks on here and ask for some actual DATA that proves the majority of our economic problems can be solved by stripping away social security, medicare or medicaid.
    Keeping in mind that neither medicare or medicaid have any say in how much the insurance special interests and AMA have hijacked medical costs in this country.





    I also have to point out you avoided A LOT of subjects from my previous post.
    Last edited by twigs; 08-18-2011 at 09:29 AM.
    A good point about the adult entertainment industry:

    http://youtu.be/2TdEYqOZY_E

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