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Thread: "The Collective" report. READ here for Collective Camsite info.

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    Default Re: "The Collective" report. READ here for Collective Camsite info.

    I suggest the shit talking stop.. If there's nothing of value for anyone to add to this thread then don't reply to it anymore.

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    Veteran Member SupaByoch's Avatar
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    Default Re: "The Collective" report. READ here for Collective Camsite info.

    ^I hope that goes equal for the biggest shit-talker and drama starter in the thread: Bambalina herself.


    tessarubyxoxo: somehow i ended up on SW's homepage.... then i clicked on "forums." & i was in fucking narnia.


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    Default Re: "The Collective" report. READ here for Collective Camsite info.

    It goes for everyone participating in the drama.

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    Default Re: "The Collective" report. READ here for Collective Camsite info.

    i have worked in a cooperative environment. i've been on boards. i've been part owner in co-ops. i've run organizations and businesses. i've consulted for organizations and businesses. no cooperative or collective is entirely run by everyone who buys in (unless it's extremely small) - leadership is elected. and that leadership has to work together. do you know what kind of drama goes on on boards in non-adult businesses and organizations? multiply that shit by a hundred.

    the reason i won't touch this with a ten-foot pole is honestly...everything that's been posted about the collective has been unprofessional, inconsistent, and emotional - and really not on par with the kind of attitude i'd expect if i were going into business with someone. i get that this is some people's place to vent and make shit personal - and that is totally fine. that's how i use this forum sometimes, too. but not if you expect me to take you seriously as a business partner. then it is a whole different ballgame. there has to be consistency, basic respect, willingness to listen, not take shit personally and get emotional. and at least a basic knowledge of the kind of skills it takes to survive when running a business. i don't see that here. i would like to see it. i'm not trying to trash-talk anyone. i'm just saying - from my experience in businesses and organizations, in cooperative and collective environments, and on boards of directors...this is not a healthy environment at all.

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    Default Re: "The Collective" report. READ here for Collective Camsite info.

    I don't think Bamb is doing this for the money/business side alone. She's made it pretty clear from the beginning it's something she feels passionate about changing . She's not talking people into investing , people are going to her ..... Which shows there are others on the board sharing the same passion .

    Personally I can't imagine embarking on such a grand scale venture , perhaps I'm more realistic, perhaps I lack ambition , either way , You can't knock a girl for trying. I thrive on seeing people stand up for something they believe in , especially when they end up appearing stupid/the minority . It means they REALLY believe in it.

    Anyway B - I'm much more interested in the indy site than I am the other, and if that's still going ahead, I'll pop into your chat should I have the time . We can talk about it here tomorrow also , all this back and fro'ing over whether the idea's crap or not has given me a bad head !

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    Default Re: "The Collective" report. READ here for Collective Camsite info.

    ^I don't think anyone has said the idea is crap. Just that the plan is lacking and the leader displays a lack of professionalism/answers. Bam may be the best businesswoman in the world, but her behavior in this thread implies the opposite.

    As for passion, it is great! That is part of the reason I was interested at first. But passion doesn't necessarily translate to paying the bills, which is ultimately what we all want to do. Kinda like the customers who are soooooo nice and complimentary, but who don't spend any money. We can't pay the rent with niceness and compliments. Likewise, businesspeople can't justify investing their time and money in something based on passion - it has to be backed by a real solid plan and someone who can handle challenges professionally and positively, not with emotional ranting and insults.

    That said, I think the listing site has a better chance than the camsite as well, especially with that small budget. That seems like a much better place to start to me. But ya know, that's just my worthless opinion. haha


    tessarubyxoxo: somehow i ended up on SW's homepage.... then i clicked on "forums." & i was in fucking narnia.


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    Default Re: "The Collective" report. READ here for Collective Camsite info.

    ^ I think the idea is great! I never said it was crap. The only thing I realized from all of this reading is that it's HER IDEA. Which is why when someone comes up with different views they get pushed aside. If you go back to the original 08/2010 within the first 4 posts responses, she just dismisses someone's thoughts. They asked why ask if you know the answer? Then it turned into a back and forth for awhile until people dropped off the thread.

    Again someone came in with some questions and were ignored. The only ladies that were acknowledged were the ones that popped in saying I want to do this!

    I even saw PJ come in asking atleast 3 times how the launch was coming and didn't even receive an answer back. Now that seemed weird since PJ is well know for her daily pay. Felt that would be a great source of information with pay out options.

    Again I really want this to work but maybe because it is Her idea, she's too close to it. Meaning she's able to get emotional because of her connection to it. Now perhaps maybe you ukmissy can talk on her behalf. That way questions can be answered without a back and forth struggle.

    It's just a suggestion , but you seem to be able to converse with her in a way that she feels is non threatening. So you sound perfect to be able to relay information between the models and her.

    So basically summarizing where she is at her current stage of development.
    2 Then going into the features the site will have( panty sales, vids, wishlist etc)
    3 what the NEW completion date is.
    4 Monies needed prior to launch?
    5 Percentage to model split?
    6 Legal
    7 Name of the site
    8 Payment options to models

    I don't know I just felt the talks have gone on for over a year.Now there should be enough data to know what most models would love to have on a new site.

    If that's all accounted for what is left to do?
    If it's $$$ needed what has been collected thus far and what is needed to have a start date of say 10/01/2011?

    Also there is a chat feature on this site and all can chat there to voice concerns, thoughts, ideas etc. I may have missed a few of those myself since I'm camming some of those times. Again this is a great idea but sharing in a positive way is how this will work. Everyone's opinion and questions should not only be accepted but encouraged.

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    Veteran Member SupaByoch's Avatar
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    Default Re: "The Collective" report. READ here for Collective Camsite info.

    ^Start date of 10/1/2011 seems unrealistically soon, unless a whole lot more progress has been made than appears to have been. Anyway I'm kinda glad to see things have calmed down in here.


    tessarubyxoxo: somehow i ended up on SW's homepage.... then i clicked on "forums." & i was in fucking narnia.


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    Default Re: "The Collective" report. READ here for Collective Camsite info.

    3 things.

    1. The site we're discussing has NOTHING to do with the site from 2010. This idea was born in and . It then took flight further in That thread then became the seed for the MFC discussion about public shows and such...and the discussion of the Cooperative camsite moved to . All of that happened on 6-22,23,24-2011.

    clearly explains the difference between the Collective/Co-op site, and MY sites, (which have a somewhat co-op slant) that are the Indy Site and Panty Site. TOTALLY different projects. The Indy Site being the one which was delayed since 2010, and is a personal endeavor and really isn't anyone's business when I finish it. (Although it is with a developer right now and I get updates daily and I estimate its completion within 2-3 weeks, and actual opening within a month).

    First Chat: 06-26-2011, 09:00 PM we realized that one of the difficulties of a true cooperative is that we need to have meetings and have a 51% majority present to vote things in. Because the 4, or 6, or 7 of us who actually come to chat do not comprise a majority. So, we are possibly going to need to move from a democratic voting system, to a governing board of some type. By August 1st, we realize that we can easily get the MONEY for this project...It is wildly popular and there can be more than $10k if we choose. But it is getting women who are willing to actually put in the work of owning a business that will be tougher, but VERY important, because it also a BIG part of what gives this endeavor a major advantage.

    I create the e-mail list somewhere in this time period. I begin sending out e-mails and again get enthusiastic response for the "investment" and VERY LITTLE activity as far as women willing to actually show up and do the work.

    This is the most major STALL in the project. and caused THIS thread you are reading to be created.

    2. If you would like to lead the cooperative, and believe you can get it up, open and running...If you believe you truly have what it takes to make it happen. The JOB of "Organizing Director" (the one everyone says I am so bad at) is open. Please, PM me if you are interested and I will set up for you to have an interview in the Co-op chat, and you can take over my duties immediately.

    In fact...If you don't like the way I do things, or that I am involved in this, PLEASE, Steal the Idea and RUN WITH IT! I invite any capable persons to please create a co-op and get their cam-site up and running. Create Co-op Indy sites, and Co-op Clips (C4S) type sites, and Co-op sites of all types. Please do not wait for me! Make a co-op cam-site today!!!

    This isn't my project, it was only my idea, and I give it free to the camming world to use as they see fit.

    It isn't about making money for me...It is wholly about making camming better.

    In fact, I prefer if someone else takes the reins.

    Roast? Supa? LAChloe? Sam38G? How about you!? You seem to think you can truly do this much much better. So please, take the burden from me and run with it. I give you 100% permission on the idea right here, right now, and I will never say you stole anything.

    Be prepared because it is a hassle, and it won't make you ANY money for a long while if it is a true co-op, since you will be paying the women and promoting with all the profits.

    But just please, understand...I don't want any part of "running" a co-op, unless I have an equal board running it with me. In fact it is likely that if people don't step up and agree to help with the burden (beside the 5-6 courageous, hard working women we have now), this project WILL die, morph, and become something completely different.

    So, I challenge someone to take the reins from me, and lets get this damn site up and running....capable ladies...the gauntlet has been thrown down....pick it up and run with this project.

    3. Every description of a co-op that has been posted by those "rasing issues" is absolutely wrong, doesn't understand the concept, and just isn't describing a collective or a cooperative. It's very very sad to me that all of you women arguing and raising all these issues just do not understand the concept, and so obviously will come and attack it and me, will talk about how it can't be done, but are so clearly ignorant to the concept of what a co-operative/collective IS. I even posted the definition from Wikipedia, with tons of further reading, and yet almost every person with a negative opinion has clearly shown they do not even understand basically how a co-op works.

    Every person who has attacked me, or said it is a Bambalina project has shown a gaping lack of understanding for what a co-op is. So, please. If you want any part of this thread, this discussion, or the idea, please, at least respect the other ladies you will be working with enough to read up on what a Cooperative is.

    Thanks,
    B

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    Default Re: "The Collective" report. READ here for Collective Camsite info.

    Quote Originally Posted by cherryblossomsinspring View Post
    ^ I think the idea is great! I never said it was crap. The only thing I realized from all of this reading is that it's HER IDEA. Which is why when someone comes up with different views they get pushed aside.
    Ok, well, with my last post. I am stepping aside in favor of others who are more fit to run it. Feel free to list your qualifications, let us know who you are in real life (this seems to be important to many here) and start telling us how you're going to run things!

    It isn't Bambalina's idea anymore...it's cherryblossom's idea!

    Tell us how you're going to do it and run with it darlin'! I will back you every step of the way!

    B

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    Default Re: "The Collective" report. READ here for Collective Camsite info.

    Quote Originally Posted by SupaByoch View Post
    ^I don't think anyone has said the idea is crap. Just that the plan is lacking and the leader displays a lack of professionalism/answers.

    No leader. Read my last post. YOU can now be the "leader" (see how well THAT term works in a cooperative) and run with this!

    I will even still find you a cam-site for under $5k that is robust and secure, since that is one aspect you seem entirely unable to accomplish.

    We're all waiting for you're qualifications and resume, and I wish you luck in running this.

    B

    PS. A hint: your $20k-$100k cam-site will be a hard sell unless you have, say 500 people in your cooperative...

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    Default Re: "The Collective" report. READ here for Collective Camsite info.

    Quote Originally Posted by roast View Post
    Since nothing tangible exists about this beyond a lot of very public and detailed business planning for almost 9 months - I give some stonecold entrepreneur ~6months to launch a collective cam site. Itll probably indie listing since it'll be cheaper.
    I agree! And my goals will be accomplished!

    Thank you for finally getting it! I hope you will definitely be one of those who opens a site. You seem to be QUITE outspoken and have many ideas for how it should work. I cannot wait to see what you do with the place....hehehe

    Don't wait 6 months...sheesh, lord knows I asked if anyone would be interested in a true co-op on 6-23-11 and already I am getting TONS of shit for it not being opened yet. Open it next month. I invite you to and no hard feelings!

    And they'll do it with their own funds and solicit contributions to cover the cost and figure out a way to profit off of it.
    Oopsie! Doing it with your own funds would not be a cooperative! Silly! Maybe before you start a cooperative, you might want to understand the concept by reading the definition at Wikipedia. I think you'll be wicked good at it. Since your communication skills are so business-like and professional and all.

    There is a reason girls don't post in too much detail about ways they earn money or strategically sidestep the public "help me!" posts. Talking about things like this so openly means your idea is going to be poached.
    Well, this isn;t like that. This is a collective for te good of camming. Sheesh! To be all secret about it would go against the VERY PREMISE!

    It seems many here don't really get the whole "sharing" and "Cooperation" thing. See, this is 100% for EVERYONE to benefit. So if you organize it, you aren't going to make the "most money" or anything...you will just be a cooperative member with organizational skills, and that's it. See?

    But hey, don't let me rain on your parade. You run YOUR (so weird to say that in conjunction with COOPERATIVE talk..hehe ) cooperative any way you want, and I will offer my help any way I can.

    Someone is going to steal it and make it way better - and they'll quietly launch it and then drum up interest after the fact.
    You really think so!? I hope so!!! God, think, a WAY BETTER cooperative than me and the other 6 ladies planned! Yikes! That would be the best cam-site in the WORLD, and it would all be because I planted a lil' seed of an idea! Gosh, I hope your right and I'm crossing my fingers that it happens SOONER, rather than LATER!

    I'm not saying this for your health since I think you read posts from certain users with a blind hotrage...
    hotrage is a great word! However, I am not angry at anyone. You DO read some frustration in my writing, since so few people are intellectually able to rap their heads around the e concept of a co-op. THAT does get frustrating. But rage? Wow...I need to work on that. Is this better? I mean, I'm so happy that I finally got through to YOU at least. You get it now!

    A public domain idea for whoever wants to pick it up and run with it. A cooperative and collective culture of camming, clips, panty sites, indy sites, personal websites linked together to bring more customers, etc. A woman-owned and run Garden of Eden for the Adult Entertainment world.

    Yep! That is what I have been trying to sell you people...For FREE too!

    My sites will fit in there, if I am creative about them, and I'll enjoy investing in all the coops that spring up...sheesh, we ALL should right? THAT is how AE should work...All of us supporting ALL OF US!

    Yay!!!

    I'm saying this to the people who have invested so much time in this:
    Don;t worry there are only about 6 women total who really invest time and effort (no money though) thusfar, the others just pledged money (and have not yet ever been asked to actually pony up a dime)...So myself and the other 6 women, well, we'll figure something out. But thanks for your concern. Most of them don't even read SW much anymore because there is so much drama.

    if you think this is a great idea and have lots of ideas, just launch it yourself. You probably have most if not more of the tools - not sure what you're still waiting for.
    ABSOLUTELY!!! Here Here!! Roast gets it!!!

    A cooperative is about whoever grabs the ball and runs being supported by those who are in it to win it with the cooperative. If you want, start your collective and I'll help you find the developers, and the great hosting and stuff.

    I'm fully there to back anyone who really wants to do this!

    It is a "collective" - so the pledges, thoughts, planning ... none of that technically belongs to anyone, right?
    Forget technically! It doesn't belong to anyone...PERIOD. I post about it and talk about it and have told people they should do it for 2 years because it's in the PUBLIC DOMAIN! Feel FREE. Seriously.

    You won't hurt my feelings....Get that site up and running, and I hope you'll allow me to own a share! I would be proud!

    This is the sex industry, integrity isn't what's for dinner. Just find her leads, fill in her holes (lol) and launch the thing.
    integrity? I gave this idea out to be used by whoever has the fortitude and get-up-and-go to make it happen.

    I will back whoever it is who steps up, and I will be there with all my 'leads' and 'holes'...I will fill that shit for you...I have NO problems with any woman starting any business. Even if it competes with one of my private enterprises! Because that just challenges me to make mine more unique and cool and rockin', and then you will have to make yours better, and that will be GOOD for the Camming Industry!

    Yay!!!! Now we're beginning to see the full picture of how camming CAN be!!! Awesome!

    B, it is clear you don't respect established camgirls - ok that's typical of most non-camgirls launching a camming business, that's fine.
    Oh roast, you and your silly insults and made up stuff! I was a camgirl before you probably! And I will be a cam-girl until none of my regulars will pay to see my saggy boobs and varicose veins anymore...which is a few year away at least!

    Anyway, I have hella respect for "respected camgirls" and I also have hella respect for the newbies! I just don't have much respect for the Debbie Downer types and people who attack things without even understanding them.

    I also don't respect when people talk about something as if they know it, because they have in some way connected to it.

    Race Car Driver thinks they can own a car company.

    Fast food counter worker thinks they know how to run McDonalds.

    or better yet...Hot Dog Stand Owner thinks they can advise someone on how to start a chain of fine dining restaurants like Maggianos...

    NONE of the women advising in here have EVER owned a camsite, so they know as little as me about that. However, I have been doing serious research and actually talking to those who have owned them and DO own them, and THEIR advice seriously contradicts the "expert cam-girls"...so, yes, sorry, I will fllow the advice of those who are ALREADY successful in THIS business, not in being porn stars, or opening personal sites.

    And generally, this might not be popular, but I greet an "established and respected porn/cam-goddess" as less likely to hold answers. Because they are mired in the status quo...they LIVE for the system as it is NOW, and they are VERY VERY invested in it, and me changing it to make it more fair for all is a THREAT to them, because then ALL girls have a shot at the "great camscore" and the "Page one listing"...On top of that, it has become QUITE clear that not one unusual, original, crazy, out-of-the-box, "that just might work!!!" idea has come forth from establishment, old-guard cam-girls. NOT ONE.

    Only "It'll never work!" and "You need way more money!!!" and "Don't do it!!"..So if ladies want that, they should go to it, but I am looking for CAN DO and original ideas and verve....So, no, thusfar, I have VERY LITTLE use for "Established cam-girls" (except AshiePants...I love her and she rocks and is really original).

    You also don't have the personality or people skills for collective ownership, that's fine. Many others have already commented on your capacity for accountability and authenticity, so that's fine... so when someone has those things launches this, all I can see are months of even more depressing threads.
    Many = the same 5-6 girls always starting trouble and getting threads closed.

    When someone, anyone, (even you) launches this, I will applaud, because I want to see a collective/cooperative site for camgirls. Period.

    Or even anger at the collective (probably) and a lot of "how did this happen - don't join guys! why are you joining? this was MY idea - sorry I mean OUR idea. Theft! Theft! Theft of MY idea! I mean OUR idea! Whatever, stop joining!"
    Ladies, I say here and now. EVERY cooperative that is truly female/Adult Entertainer run, I will be really angry if you don't go out of your way to support it.

    PLEASE. If anyone opens a collective or cooperative that is really good for camgirls, support it, because it IS the future of camming and Adult Entertainment, and can totally put the power in our hands!

    Seriously, ANY woman who wants to open one, don't hesitate! Start now, and you will have my backing if you want it, otherwise I'll get the hell out of your way and you GO!

    This is the sex industry, people are kinda lazy about innovation. They also tend to have more money than your average entrepreneur. Above all, they generally don't give a fuck. You can only sit on an egg long enough before the sucker hatches.
    God roast, I sure hope you're right! {crosses fingies}

    B

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    Default Re: "The Collective" report. READ here for Collective Camsite info.

    Quote Originally Posted by SupaByoch View Post
    This is just completely laughable. Yes, we have zero actual business experience or knowledge in the camming industry. Because running our own camming business involves ZERO business or marketing skill, in the camming business. LOL!
    None of you have owned a cam-site, which EVERY adult site owner will tell you is a completely unique form of Adult Entertainment unlike any other.

    That is all I said. I don't care if you own a fortune 500 company that is adult. If it isn't a cam site, then I am not so interested in your advice. That's just me. I am ONE member of a 55 member Cooperative with 6 SERIOUSLY active voting and working members, so, feel free to pitch your stuff to them.

    I am sure many others ARE interested, and even some within the cooperative I have now, will be interested and might discuss it in chat. But um, none of the advice presented has been good advice in my opinion. And it also hasn't jibed with the copious advice I have received from ACTUAL cam-site owners and operators, who both succeeded and failed.

    Sorry.

    Oh and you have NO IDEA whether any of us have worked in a corporate environment (I have, actually, and successfully I might add).
    Um, where did I EVER mention any of you working in a CORPORATE environment? I think you mis-read something. Since working in a corporate environment would bring you absolutely ZERO help in this endeavor. OWNING a piece of a corporation large enough for your vote to count...maybe...starting a corporation...maybe...but working in one? Well...HUH? Why would that matter to owning a cooperative?
    Nor do you have any idea whether any of us have started a camsite. You really are talking right out of your ass there.
    No, actually, since none of you has approached this as a cam-site owner, or ex-cam-site owner, it is fair for me to answer you as NOT having that credential, since NO-ONE has presented that as a part of their credentials or resume. So, until one of you steps up as a cam-site owner, you aren't. What am I supposed to do? Figure every person responding here is a cam-site EXPERT?

    Wow...hoping you explain this one...but either way, it doesn't matter, since I'm gonna be working for you now, right?

    You're stepping up to take this baton and make this thing go...I hope.

    And the part about us being the equivalent of race car drivers in business? LMFAO. Really
    I like the analogy I just did...Hotdog Stand or Ice Cream Truck owner or even employee, advising the guy starting the fine dining chain..

    Being a cam-model does not make one expert in owning a cam-site...owning a personal web-site does not make one expert in owning a cam-site...being a porn star does NOT make you an expert at owning a cam site...

    And none of these make you an expert (obviously) on the sucessful start-up of a collective or cooperative.

    But, on your own logic, added to the fact you say you have never started or run a camsite, then YOUR advice is "fucking worthless" too.
    Absolutely! Which is why I have gone to at least 5 different cam-site owners/managers/operators and asked their advice. Because their advice is worthwhile, and since all the "expert camgirls" advice contradicts successful cam-site operators advice, I know how much value to place in that advice.

    I cannot wait to see what sorts of cooperatives and collectives and sites you gals all come up with! I can;t wait to see how awesome it helps camming to have all these ultra-fair sites with major promotion and stuff.

    Yay!

    Get to it Supa...can't wait to hear about what your site will be and ask some serious questions...

    B

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    Default Re: "The Collective" report. READ here for Collective Camsite info.

    Lastly, I have to take my kid to Sunday Library day, so just so everyone is clear...

    There is NO sarcasm or rudeness intended in ANY of the posts I just put up. I mean all of it, and want everyone to know that I support ALL future cooperative and collective actions!

    I love all of you, even the ones I sometimes find tedious, and I sincerely hope we can all bring about a better and more open and profitable camming community for everyone!

    That, being said, there is a cooperative meeting tonight on CGU and EVERYONE is welcome....collective member or not.

    Come and decide the direction of the cooperative, and listen to these ladies present their reasons for why they should be the director of this cooperative, and I hope you will be as supportive as I am for all of them.

    Who knows several collectives may spin off tonight and make the camming world MUCH more lucrative and interesting for us all.

    B

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    Default Re: "The Collective" report. READ here for Collective Camsite info.

    Been a quiet day in this thread....

    Wonder why?

    B

    PS. In chat now....can't stay too late...kiddo has a friend overnight...

  18. #116
    Veteran Member SupaByoch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bambalina View Post
    None of you have owned a cam-site, which EVERY adult site owner will tell you is a completely unique form of Adult Entertainment unlike any other.

    That is all I said.
    No, that's NOT all you said. You said this, which is utterly ridiculous:
    Quote Originally Posted by Bambalina View Post
    Nice ass kissing, and seems ALMOST logical, except none of these people has ever started or run a cam-site, nor have they worked in a cooperative environment (and OBVIOUSLY keep saying they get it, as do you, but OBVIOUSLY don't). So no roast, their advice is fucking worthless. It is like saying that a guy who made money and did well being a race car driver, that his advice is really valuable about starting a new car company selling electric cars. Just because he DROVE cars does not make him any sort of expert on marketing them or running a manufacturer.

    Next...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bambalina View Post
    Um, where did I EVER mention any of you working in a CORPORATE environment? I think you mis-read something.
    Right here, where I quoted you in my post that you quoted. LOL
    Quote Originally Posted by Bambalina View Post
    Nice ass kissing, and seems ALMOST logical, except none of these people has ever started or run a cam-site, nor have they worked in a cooperative environment (and OBVIOUSLY keep saying they get it, as do you, but OBVIOUSLY don't). So no roast, their advice is fucking worthless. It is like saying that a guy who made money and did well being a race car driver, that his advice is really valuable about starting a new car company selling electric cars. Just because he DROVE cars does not make him any sort of expert on marketing them or running a manufacturer.


    Next...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bambalina View Post
    No, actually, since none of you has approached this as a cam-site owner, or ex-cam-site owner
    Again, you have NO IDEA what any of us have done outside of this forum or our personal camming businesses. Talking out of your ass. I personally have done a whole lot more than you think. I just don't sit here listing my resume because I don't need to, because I'm not trying to recruit members of this community into my endeavors.

    However, since some of us are known to be very successful in this industry, one could safely assume we have an understanding of business and this industry that makes our opinions and advice....quite the opposite of fucking worthless.


    The whole point is that you keep dismissing everything anyone says who doesn't agree with you, by making wild assumptions about their experience and knowledge, and by dismissing our success in the camming business as irrelevant, which is utterly absurd.



    Last....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bambalina View Post
    I have gone to at least 5 different cam-site owners/managers/operators and asked their advice. Because their advice is worthwhile, and since all the "expert camgirls" advice contradicts successful cam-site operators advice, I know how much value to place in that advice.
    Wait. You're asking current camsite owners for advice on opening a revolutionary camsite? The very same camsite owners you despise so much? The big model-raping camsites most of us have no interest in emulating??

    Are you really that naive? You don't actually believe camsite owners are going to give you legitimate advice on how to open a successful camsite, to become their competitor, do you? If I were you, I wouldn't trust the advice of any camsite owner (who has a vested interest in making sure I DON'T succeed) for advice on opening a camsite. Not even if I think they're my "friends". Duh.

    Or are these OTHER owners or ex-owners, the ones who tried and failed? Who wants the advice of people who failed? I surely hope this isn't where you're getting your oh-so-valuable advice.

    So if you really think that your camsite owner buddies are giving you good advice, IMO that is your biggest mistake. Of course THEY will tell you we are full of crap
    Last edited by SupaByoch; 09-11-2011 at 06:39 PM.


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    God/dess cherryblossomsinspring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bambalina View Post
    Ok, well, with my last post. I am stepping aside in favor of others who are more fit to run it. Feel free to list your qualifications, let us know who you are in real life (this seems to be important to many here) and start telling us how you're going to run things!

    It isn't Bambalina's idea anymore...it's cherryblossom's idea!

    Tell us how you're going to do it and run with it darlin'! I will back you every step of the way!

    B
    I actually said in my last post that I barely got a twitter account. I do not know anything about building a webpage,website,graphics etc. You actually already know this since I clearly ask questions over and over again. Plus I wasn't talking about ME. See that's the thing for this to work there has to be people who KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING AND HAVE PROVEN SUCCESS RECORDS TO HELP.

    Example Sam38g has a proven track record of success. The point was since you don't , it would be nice for you to let people that have done this and done it well to give advice. Not shoot them down because they don't agree.

    I think you just singled out the LEAST QUALIFIED TO RUN WITH THE IDEA ON PURPOSE. Anyone would eyes would see through that. Did I say I want your idea and that I can do it for x amount of dollars, that I have a proven tract record? Umm No.

    I'm not ashamed of my inexperience but proud to be on a site that allows me to learn from those that have MADE IT AND KEEP DOING IT WELL. Is that you? No.

    You have a great idea , and great passion, but I've said it before . You come off pretty condescending to those that don't agree which limits the amount of help and information you'll receive. The purpose here is to work together. If you can't work together then it will be a failure or it will be something you'll be doing on your own.

    Someone shouldn't be labeled "mean" just because they feel you'll need more money. To me that person is looking out for the interests of those involved including you.

    Now the clips site, panty sales site, indy site and now this site are all different projects? I never knew that. I actually thought this was the same exact site. I looked though the threads and didn't see anything stating. ' DROPPING THIS IDEA" GOING TO CHANGE TO DIFFERENT IDEA IN ANOTHER THREAD. FOLLOW ME PLEASE. Or something like " This will be on hold for now" Will be working on new concept separate from this.

    So out of the 4 which site is up? or did all of the ideas get scrubbed? This really is all news to me and I'm pretty sure there are others that didn't realize these ideas were not part of the current Collective site.

    I mean putting up a thread on " what was discussed" in the last meeting dated xxx would be helpful to those that couldn't attend.

    Now also jumping in and saying hmm where is everyone now. Remember you're a promoter that has time to blog alot which is pretty obvious. The rest of us are actually camming etc, making clips, selling panties etc. So not everyone can drop what their doing to come find you at a moment's notice. I just popped in because I have some messages and saw all of the posts, which btw I haven't even been able to get through all of them.

    So give the camgirls some time, they'll respond when they have some left over.

    Again great idea , but be open to learn and share. Plus treating people like equals doesn't hurt either.

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  21. #118
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    ^Also previously said the collective members had told her in no uncertain terms that none of us (me, roast, sam38g, whoever else it was she named) would be ALLOWED in the collective, but now completely changing the tune to say that one/some of us should offer to run it and be interviewed in chat by the collective members.

    So, either we're not allowed to join because we're "mean girls" for disagreeing vocally (plus our advice is "fucking worthless" LOL), or we're the perfect candidates to run it, according to Bam's posts in this very thread. Confusing


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  22. #119
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    ^ Yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SupaByoch View Post
    No, that's NOT all you said. You said this, which is utterly ridiculous:
    Nice ass kissing, and seems ALMOST logical, except none of these people has ever started or run a cam-site, nor have they worked in a cooperative environment (and OBVIOUSLY keep saying they get it, as do you, but OBVIOUSLY don't). So no roast, their advice is fucking worthless. It is like saying that a guy who made money and did well being a race car driver, that his advice is really valuable about starting a new car company selling electric cars. Just because he DROVE cars does not make him any sort of expert on marketing them or running a manufacturer.
    Which boils down to, none of you ran a cam-site, so your advice on running cam-sites is utterly worthless.

    They are porn stars (NO help in insight into starting or running a successful cooperative cam-site), cam-models (NO help in insight into starting or running a successful cooperative cam-site), Personal Adult site owners (NO help in insight into starting or running a successful cooperative cam-site), and on top of all that, they are negative, rude and overall make no truly helpful suggestions which will make the site happen better or faster or with more creativity and verve. So, I stand by the FACT that their "advice" was utterly useless.

    So, yes, all I said was that they were NOT camsite owners...you can repost the extra words (you always complain about) and how they say EXACTLY what I boil down to: "They are not cam-site owners or cooperative owners. So it is like a race car driver advising Ford on how to sell cars..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Supa
    Next...
    Originally Posted by Bambalina
    Um, where did I EVER mention any of you working in a CORPORATE environment? I think you mis-read something.

    Supa: Right here, where I quoted you in my post that you quoted. LOL

    Originally Posted by Bambalina
    Nice ass kissing, and seems ALMOST logical, except none of these people has ever started or run a cam-site, nor have they worked in a cooperative environment (and OBVIOUSLY keep saying they get it, as do you, but OBVIOUSLY don't). So no roast, their advice is fucking worthless. It is like saying that a guy who made money and did well being a race car driver, that his advice is really valuable about starting a new car company selling electric cars. Just because he DROVE cars does not make him any sort of expert on marketing them or running a manufacturer.
    Hahaha...Wanna read it AGAIN???

    worked in a cooperative environment
    Are you sure your wearing your glasses?

    One more time...

    a cooperative environment
    C-O-O-P-E-R-A-T-I-V-E, not C-O-R-P-O-R-A-T-E

    Sorry, too funny...not being rude, just that you misread the word that many times.

    Right here, where I quoted you in my post that you quoted. LOL
    So, if any of you ladies does own a successful bigbox cooperative cam-site, please...come forward now

    Again, you have NO IDEA what any of us have done outside of this forum or our personal camming businesses. Talking out of your ass. I personally have done a whole lot more than you think. I just don't sit here listing my resume because I don't need to, because I'm not trying to recruit members of this community into my endeavors.
    This is ridiculous, circular logic that makes no sense....anyone who reads and doesn't see why, I'll explain for them.

    You say "Again, you have NO IDEA what any of us have done outside of this forum or our personal camming businesses." And that goes for the guy who lives next to me here in the RV Park, and Race Car drivers, and hobos at the homeless shelter, and people I meet in Chuck-E Cheese when I take my kid...So you're saying I should take advice from all those people who I have NO CLUE if they have any experience in this business whatsoever??? What kind of logic is that??

    If I have NO IDEA what any of you have done. NONE. Then Why the hell should I take the advice of people who have no track record for me in any business I know about that lends itself to this?

    Right here you say I have NO IDEA what you've done. So you are some person, who I have no idea about, giving me advice. WHY would I take it?

    I am not "talking out my ass" (nice way to bring us back to nastiness and drama by the way, hope Kaia reads that) when I dismiss advice from women who have been rude to me in MANY MANY threads and who are negative about almost everything I ever say, and who just aren't known to be reliably good advice on "Owning a Cam-site"...combine all of those things and you get "the advice is un-wanted, comes from a place I do not trust, and is generally worthless, because it is backed by NO EXPERIENCE in owning cam-sites".

    The rest of this message is generally not worth answering for me. I'm sorry. It's more complete lack of understanding of how a cooperative works. It's more running on the rat-wheel of words and trying to open circular logic loops and play mental gymnastics, and I'm going to take Kaiarose's advice and mostly ignore it all...I have two things I'll reply to seperately, but otherwise...I'm done with you as far as this subject goes, because you are proving what I've been saying for the last ten messages....trouble-making just to make trouble, stirring the pot just to stir it, and really, you don;t care at ALL about the cooperative or the people in it, or me...you just care about this THING we're doing....this "Dance" of words....and it's a waste of my precious time.

    B

  24. #121
    Featured Member Ms.Lacey's Avatar
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    This thread is a turn-off

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  26. #122
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    Oh dear goddess.







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    Quote Originally Posted by SupaByoch View Post
    The whole point is that you keep dismissing everything anyone says who doesn't agree with you, by making wild assumptions about their experience and knowledge, and by dismissing our success in the camming business as irrelevant, which is utterly absurd.
    First and formost, whose advice did I dismiss? I spent PAGES discussing a moot point with YOU, about camsites costing $20k-$100k, and ONLY because I have respect for you, since you are completely wrong and proven as such in PAGE 1.

    I answered the BOOK that Sam wrote with allllll those questions, most of them being straw men that apply to EVERY BUSINESS.

    And I dismissed advice to give up, pack up and go home because "It cannnn't worrrrrk!" and you damn right I did that....I am not quitting because some hostile women say it won;t work, and come up with some WRONG advice to prove their point.

    You keep talking about the points and questions I diodge and change the subject on.

    Well I challenge you AGAIN to post 2 or 3 points or legitimate critiques, or pieces of truly sound advice that I ignored or didn't answer with a direct reply that fits the question...

    I am saying you are a liar. That you fabricated that. And that I challenge your honor to show me where I avoided questions (and I suspect from all your talking about it that there will be SEVERAL) and honest critiques I need to address (and I suspect, again, there should be SEVERAL), or pieces of honest, well-meant advice that is really coming from a place of BUSINESS-WOMEN giving well intentioned and real advice, which I then pooh-poohed or was rude about.

    I say you are outright lying and making that up and I want to see the SEVERAL places I do this. It isn't that hard is it to show me? I've already asked nicely and said PLEASE...Now, I am saying that if you cannot back up your words you might as well be admitting to being a liar. Several times, in this thread that I avoided questions, several times when I was rude to non-hostile people who were honestly trying to offer me good advice...several times I dodged real well thought out critiques of this cooperative camsite....

    I said advice was worthless, and THAT is all you're going to point out...Ad that is AGAIN circular logic, because I said the advice was worthless, BECAUSE it was rude, ill intentioned, came from a place of just trying to ruin something good, and didn't actually offer a solution or an honest critique.

    So, lets see if you put your money where your mouth is..

    Wait. You're asking current camsite owners for advice on opening a revolutionary camsite? The very same camsite owners you despise so much? The big model-raping camsites most of us have no interest in emulating??
    Let's talk about how hilarious Supa Is.....

    How about this Supa:
    Again, you have NO IDEA what any of us have done outside of this forum or our personal camming businesses. Talking out of your ass. I personally have done a whole lot more than you think. I just don't sit here listing my resume because I don't need to, because I'm not trying to recruit members of this community into my endeavors.
    THAT is my answer to you....

    And before you go off on how I *Do* recruit others into my endeavors, are you SURE you want to go there??? And AGAIN show your complete ignorance of what a cooperative is??? You want to again call something I own 1% of MY endeavor? If you really want to follow that path feel free...I have NEVER asked anyone here for ONE DIME in investment any other venture I have ever had or will have. If it's MINE, I have never asked for anything.

    Now, will I be starting sites that will offer services to cam-girls for a fee? Yep! and that is business and has NOTHING to do with this.

    And I will give you the same information as EVERY other adult site owner gives about themselves and their finances and such....NONE. I will give you exactly what Streamate gives...nothing...what most personal site owners who are respected women give...NOTHING...a private domain and "Bambalina" is all you need to know....

    Women IN the collective...well, I have to sign contracts with them, so they will get to know who bambalina really is...otherwise my information is my own...

    So if you really think that your camsite owner buddies are giving you good advice, IMO that is your biggest mistake. Of course THEY will tell you we are full of crap
    You have NO idea where I get my advice. And you are now talking...well I won't get rude like you did...

    I will however point out how hypocritical it is....for YOU to make up assumptions out of whole-cloth about how and where i get advice...

    Yes, I talk to present cam-site owners, past owners who sold for LARGE sums of money, past owners who failed, and MANY MANY other people involved in many different businesses both related and un-related, including those who specialize if following traffic patterns on the internet and using that to predict future trends...You cannot imagine who I know and who i talk to and to belittle my knowledge and sources with no information whatsoever, make you guilty of what you accuse me of, and you don;t have past experience as an excuse, as I do.

    Shame on you...
    B

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    Roughly how many girls are interested in the collective? I've not been in the chats yet , but I remember there was a lot of interest last year . I'm wondering how many are still around ?

    Missy

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    Quote Originally Posted by cherryblossomsinspring
    I actually said in my last post that I barely got a twitter account. I do not know anything about building a webpage,website,graphics etc. You actually already know this since I clearly ask questions over and over again. Plus I wasn't talking about ME. See that's the thing for this to work there has to be people who KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING AND HAVE PROVEN SUCCESS RECORDS TO HELP.
    Sorry I sincerely apologize. I used you as an example since you had so rudely put "HER idea" the way you did. Maybe it is just the way I took it, and if so, I apologize again...and my reply would be to anyone...literally ANYONE who thinks that way...

    The idea belongs to the public domain...in fact it is kind of stupid that we talk about cooperative camsite as some sort of "idea" that someone "owns"...cooperatives have been around forever, and ANYONE can make one and it isn't MY idea at all...It was my idea to actuall start working on making one happen, which is SO FAR more than ANYONE else has done and makes me more qualified than all the SIDELINE QUARTERBACKS throwing knives at my back...eh? I'm more qualified, because I am doing SOMETHING (maybe poorly and not how people want it done...but still DOING) and many other people are doing absolutely nothing to help your life or make a better world for camming. They are sniping at me and giving bad negative advice and NOT ONE OF THEM is willing to STEP UP and **DO** something.

    Old saying: Those who cannot DO, TEACH...
    Murphy's Version: Those who cannot DO, Criticize those who DO.

    Also, I know what I am doing, and I have a proven success record, I just can't share it with you. But overall, if you really understand what a cooperative IS, then you know that my record is MEANINGLESS...I own 1% of this...any of these wise old injuns can jump in any time and share their juju....but they don't...so guess what? You got me!

    Don't like it? Great! Don't participate....NO PROBLEM...and if it succeeds, when you come along seriously wanting to be part of it...know what I'm gonna say!?

    Sure blossom! The price for shares is higher now that the site is up and successful, but you're welcome to join!

    Because I'm not vindictive, hostile or mean. I am an old hippy chick who wants to include everyone...and know what? I AGREE with you...we need more women who know more about this than I do...I think I can make it succeed, but if we had some other wizkids helping and actually being part of it, instead of sideline quarterbacks throwing daggers, it would be THAT MUCH BETTER.

    Just because other say I won;t take advice, doesn't mean it's true...just because Supa says I ignore pertainant questions, and critiques, doesn't make it true...she has dodged every time I have asked her to list them, because she knows if I did miss any, it was an accident, and I will respond as SOON as se posts them...

    I'm NOT the leader...I am an organizer, until better people come along to fill each job we need filled...that's IT.

    If you can't handle that and it makes you run for the hills, so be it.

    Example Sam38g has a proven track record of success. The point was since you don't , it would be nice for you to let people that have done this and done it well to give advice. Not shoot them down because they don't agree.
    I believe Sam knows little to nothing about starting and running a cam-site, and I also believe she would make a horrible person to have in a cooperative environment. I was specifically asked by a few members of the cooperative NOT to have her participate.

    On the other hand, she can come and talk to them, and change their minds and show them how she is the person for this job.

    I have NO problem stepping aside so Sam can have all the work, and actually learn what it takes to run a collective.

    In fact I challenge her to do so. I ask her to step up and make it happen.

    But she won't dear. Know why?

    Because she posted over and over again that it JUST WON'T WORK and CAN'T work, and not because of me, but because a cooperative cam-site WON'T WORK.

    Here is how she entered the thread...please, seriously, re-read it:



    She starts out saying that SM is an example of FAIR cdam-sites and I'm a jerk for dissing them, and wrongly says that girls on a cooperative will have to promote themselves and stuff....So she starts with aggressive hostility, and being wrong, since this cam-site will have a promotion budget and women will NOT have to promote themselves the way she says they will.

    So how am I supposed to go from there? Just nod and agree because she is the great and powerful porn star Sam38G? Or argue that she is making poor points, saying things that are incorrect about the function of the site, and so on?

    She DEFENDS Streamates and their payment and treatment of women, and uses a cam-girl owned cooperative of women helping each other be better, to prove her point...

    Where the HELL am I supposed to go with that? You want someone who DEFENDS Streamate's poor pay and treatment of models to be the LEADER of the (supposed to be leaderless) cooperative!?

    Makes no sense....

    But know what? I have NO rights to the idea and don't want them...I think Sam should DEFINITELY start a collective and run it and make millions...and if she lefts me invest, I probably will, even though I believe with her personality, she is TOTALLY unsuited to run a cooperative venture...But I'd kick some money in...know why? Because I believe in camming being run by women. I believe in helping my fellow sister get something off the ground that WE own, and I will back her, because she has the guts and glory to TRY.

    I definitely won't come into every thread she starts and talk negative shit about her and diss her idea and say it is impossible and will never work...

    Cuz I AM that person you talk about...I post how to make a website, and how to get more traffic and controversial subjects the cam-sites and bosses don;t even want us to THINK about. Go look at the threads I've started in the last year.

    I think you just singled out the LEAST QUALIFIED TO RUN WITH THE IDEA ON PURPOSE. Anyone would eyes would see through that. Did I say I want your idea and that I can do it for x amount of dollars, that I have a proven tract record? Umm No.

    I'm not ashamed of my inexperience but proud to be on a site that allows me to learn from those that have MADE IT AND KEEP DOING IT WELL. Is that you? No.
    No, you are right, I didn't think about it when I posted, I responded to the words and not the person, and I apologize for that. And honestly, from everything I've read from you since you came around, I'd be proud to have you standing at my side as my equal helping to advise me. But I'd ignore your adice to listen to people who are negative and say GIVE UP and SHUT IT DOWN and IT WILL NEVER WORK.

    And you never did say that you could run it, or for X amount of dollars...but you WERE being a sideline quarterback and respodning to things that I believe are unfair...

    Like Sam being qualified...she isn't qualified, because she believes and says outright, that NO porn companies have investors, or take investments, and also believes that there are no investment companies which specifically invest in adult companies (which I know beyond doubt to be absolutely false..I worked for one) and finally she lists about 100 reasons that a cam-co-op owned by the women WON'T and cannot work.

    She attacks my character constantly and says all the stuff I have never done and all the stuff that I am clueless about, yet in the same post talks about how no-one knows me....I could be the fucking CEO of Vivid in disguise here...no-one knows right? So how can you post what I "HAVEN'T" done?

    How do any of you know what I have and haven't done?

    So the number one thing I respect, is those who say they don't want to be involved because they don;t know who I am and what I am about. Totally get that. I disagree strongly, but I understand it.

    I disagree because this project is 1% me. I will have no more say than YOU if you join in, and there will many many women who have a say equal to mine. So why single me out and diss a wonderful venture designed to help all cam girls? Because I originally suggested it? I don't own it, I don't run it, I don't control it. I just suggested it, and am its biggest cheerleader, because I believe in it...nothing more...and this is the shit and grief I get for that.

    And no-one will shout and defend me when one of these women AGAIN posts how I am the leader and how I am getting money from girls (even though I have AGAIN AND AGAIN posted how it will be escrow and I refuse to be in control of the escrow).

    How many times does it need to be said that I am 1% vote in this endeavor, before it sinks in and is accepted...before people stand up and say it as a truth to defend the COOPERATIVE...not me...I am **ONE fucking percent**.

    So, I was wrong to say that you should step up and run it, but in a sense, not really, because EVERY girl involved should step up and run it....THAT is what a cooperative is...everyone has an equal voice to make a real thing with differences happen.

    Someone shouldn't be labeled "mean" just because they feel you'll need more money. To me that person is looking out for the interests of those involved including you.
    Do you honestly think I call them mean girls because they think I will need more money? Really??

    Then I am truly a poor communicator. I do not want to cross our Mod, as I appreciate her watching out for this board and killing the chaos as she can. So I need to tread REALLY carefully here.

    there is people here who call me a MAN or STRONGLY imply it, because I don't join the verification club...in this THREAD it was done.

    Sam outright used the words "con artist" in a backhanded reference to me.

    [quoteSam38G]When a con artist tries to find victims they often do get highly upset and super defensive when questioned about what they are up to.

    I am not here trying to make money off of anyone. I have no hidden agendas or hide who I am. Never have I asked cam girls to boycott or quit working for any cam company.
    [/quote]

    Are you saying this is friendly advice and businesslike and I am kind of a jerk for missing such a great opportunity as to not leap to take this advice?

    Now the clips site, panty sales site, indy site and now this site are all different projects? I never knew that. I actually thought this was the same exact site. I looked though the threads and didn't see anything stating. ' DROPPING THIS IDEA" GOING TO CHANGE TO DIFFERENT IDEA IN ANOTHER THREAD. FOLLOW ME PLEASE. Or something like " This will be on hold for now" Will be working on new concept separate from this.
    First off, nothing is on hold, which is why it ALL takes so long....the panty site is 90% done except for a few re-vamping things to the external look and
    adding a profile builder, the indy site is with the developer RIGHT NOW, and there is no clips site I ever remember saying I was putting up...please refresh my memory...

    Secondly, no rudeness intended here, but you need to read more, since I did EXACTLY what you said, twice in the announcement posts for this collective...Sorry you missed two complete obvious posts, one per page.

    Quote Originally Posted by bambalina 06-24-2011, 03:27 PM
    I am willing to help guide this in the right direction, but this isn't a Bambalina Joynt...I got other stuff going too as you well know.
    First day, first page of the first full collective thread...

    LATER THAT DAY:
    Quote Originally Posted by Bambalina 06-24-2011, 08:05 PM
    Don't confuse Bambalina stuff (the Indy Site and Panty Site) with Collective Stuff (this full service Camsite)...two totally different things...the first two ARE Bambalina projects, which are owned and run by me, and the last, the full Service MFC/SM-like camsite with our rules that WE own, is not MY project, but OUR project....follow?

    B
    QUITE clearly spelled out I think.

    So out of the 4 which site is up? or did all of the ideas get scrubbed? This really is all news to me and I'm pretty sure there are others that didn't realize these ideas were not part of the current Collective site.
    ALL the ideas are coming to fruition. I cannot tell you about the "clips" site, since I don't know about that one....remind me?

    Because of the other 2, I have less time to "organize" the cooperative. It needs to be equally run by everyone, at least as far as work and effort go...or it will take a LONG time to get set up.

    Remember you're a promoter that has time to blog alot which is pretty obvious. The rest of us are actually camming etc, making clips, selling panties etc. So not everyone can drop what their doing to come find you at a moment's notice. I just popped in because I have some messages and saw all of the posts, which btw I haven't even been able to get through all of them.
    I replied to this 3 times, this is the 3rd...because this is one of the hardest parts about having people talk shit about you that isn;t true...innocent people believe that shit...no matter how many times you contradict it.

    I cammed for at least 4 money-making hours this week...me..on cam...making money...I did clips for 3 different girls, spent 25 hours in their rooms drumming up money, got over 10k twitter followers spread over several girls, sold 4 pairs of my own panties this week and 6 pairs for the girls I represent, helped one girl Choreograph her routine for a $1000 Amateur contest, and worked for hours with web developers....I also raise a 4 year old son and have a kickass hubby that I do stuff for...On top of all that, I run 15 different websites for businesses un-related to adult work, which I wrote, promote and maintain, and I am painting signs for the RV park I am in, because I love the love lady who owns it, she's a total sweety (and gives us free rent, cuz hubby put in her wifi system)...

    and yes, I STILL have time to post these massages because I type REALLY fast...although this one took over an hour of my day because SW wouldn't let me reply and quote...had to it by hand...But I like you and care that I was harsh and that I think you have the wrong idea...

    Anyway, there you go...Anything I missed?

    B

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