Converting a FWB to boyfriend - help!

[spartaca]

So, i've been single since i split up with my fiance about 3 years ago now. And around 2.5 years ago i met this beautiful man. You know when you see someone and instantly every fibre of your body cries "WANT!"? - yeah, that's how it was when i first laid eyes on him. Lucky for me some friends of mine knew him and introduced us, but nothing has ever happened, i just lusted after him in silence every time i see him. I actually figured that i scared him a tad as he'd seem a little awkward around me whenever we met.

Anyway, a few weeks ago a friend of mine had a party where he and i both were. It was a day-time to night-time thing and by the time night fell we'd both drunk a fair amount and feeling bold i decided to make it very clear that i found him attractive. The response was good better than good, and he declared that instead of us simply sharing a taxi (as we often do) i should come back to his place.

The ensuing sex was super hot and the next morning lying around drinking coffee and chatting awesome. A week later we hooked up again after chatting on facebook late night (he's a DJ so keeps late hours, i'm a natural night owl) and again, more gorgeous sex and fabulous chill time after.

The thing is how do i convert this from FWB territory to Relationship? He tried to convince me "As long as you don't mind that you're friends are right, i'm a bad boy" - i told him all of my friends think he's a saint! And he has precisely zero bad boy traits apart from liking his weed and buying extraordinary amounts of records! At 30, he's 5 years younger than me, but older than most of the guys i've been involved with in the past and i like him too much to just want this to be FWB. As well as the hot sex, we get on so very well, we have tons in common and lots of mutual friends - we'd make an awesome couple.

I don't want to scare him off but i do want it to be something more and as we're right at the beginning of this i figure now is a crucial period of time. He recently said "We should have round 3 soon" - and i am looking forward to it, but he needs to realize that 1) he doesn't actually even have my phone number (all our communication has been via FB) and 2) we'd be great together.

My friends say i should invite him out somewhere but that's difficult to do as he plays most weds, thurs, fri and saturday nights and well, i'd rather HE invited ME. I did try to invite him to watch a movie we'd been discussing - one that's hard to find, but just when i found it and told him he said he'd found it too after our chat nd was about to watch it with his flatmate - although he apologized for "pissing on your chips" and thanked me for the playlist i made him for a particular club and told me the tracks i chose went down very well) - so, well - help? Advice?

[innes]

That's how I started dating my boyfriend ... sex and hanging out and it goes from there.
You just had sex "early" but not a big deal I think ...
Invite him out on dates. Do more things than parties and sex together. Dinner, movie? Invite him over to your place (if that's probable) and watch a movie. Go on a date even if it isn't a movie - bowling, mini golf? Tons of activities possible. You still have Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday, right? So pick one of those days

[spartaca]

Yeah, trying to think of a 'date' that is 'cool' enough for us both not to want to curl up and die. The movie i had for us to both watch would have been perfect - if only he didn't decide to watch it with his flatmate! I wanted him to come to our mutual friends art show opening but he had to work, so i guess i should look around for something suitable to do...

ok, so i just got off facebook chat with him. He popped up and gave me sympathy for being ill ( i have a cold) and said it's a shame i'm ill otherwise he'd invite me over. We ended up flirting, as always, interspersed with our usual jokes and chat about art, music, work etc. We signed off as we both need to get some rest - he's been working on new music, i have to be up early in the morning - and i told him we can both get our strength back and he can call me for "round 3" - i was hoping he'd realize that he doesn't have my phone number, but nope., that penny didn't drop.

But i know in the next week i will be invited over again - i've promised him a lapdance. My friend said i should turn up with homebaked cookies for him next time he asks me over, but i'm not really the foodie type and well, it just seems a bit trite to turn up with my stripper heels in my bag and a box of cookies like a kid trying to impress a teacher. Or do you think he'd like that? Maybe i can give him a lapdance in my schoolgirl outfit?! :/ i'm confused.

[sierra.]

It kind of depends on if he is open for a relationship, or if he is one of those commitment-phobe types.

If he's open to a relationship, then just ask him out.

In the past, I have gone for the latter. The way I "converted" them was to just play it cool and wait them out. Eventually they realized their feelings and wanted a relationship, but the trick is not to get antsy and alienate them by pushing for a relationship.

Honestly, I'm not saying you should do this, or even that is a smart thing to do. It can be hard to act indifferent when you have feelings for someone. I "waited out" my current boyfriend for a year. He's amazing and it was completely worth it, but it's a long time to put in effort on a not-sure thing. Also, on a personal note, I am attracted to people who keep a distance and aren't easily available to me, and I need them to be that way in the beginning or else I lose interest... so while I don't mind (or even require) a limbo period of "waiting" someone else might not be able to stand it.

[spartaca]

Sierra - thanks. I think he's more the commitment-phobe type (show me a man who isn't) - i made some off the cuff comment about marriage and he said "i don't believe in marriage" which is a depressingly common attitude in grown men these days.

So yeah, i think i do have to wait it out - which is driving me slightly crazy - my previous 2 relationships both moved very quickly, so there was nothing to wait out and that's the way i like it. But i've had a thing for this guy for so long i guess I can wait a little longer for the conversion. I'm really proud of the way i'm holding it down at the moment - i never contact him first, it's him who contacts me and that's why i feel the whole asking him for a date or baking him cookies thing is just too much. I'm just scared i won't get the conversion and he's the only guy i've been seriously interested in over the past 3 years!

[Aurora_Sunset]

Honestly, I've found that if a guy is truly into you as more than sex, he will make it known. He will make a move. Has he even tried to come up with other things to do when he hasn't been able to join you in the things you suggest? If not, he's probably not interested. If I was really interested in someone for more than sex, but couldn't make a function they suggested, I would be all over offering a different time to hang out or something else to do... but I've strung along a lot of guys who kept asking me to do things and I was always "too busy" and yada yada and you can bet I never made an attempt to make up those lost "dates."

This guy hasn't even asked for your number yet, so he doesn't even care about being available for easy contact... I just really don't see him being interested in more than sex. Maybe this is what he meant by being a "bad boy" - he probably knows he doesn't do the relationship thing.

I would try to ask him on a date on a night you know he's free. It might scare him away... but if it does, I doubt it's because it would be too soon - it's likely going to be because he doesn't want to date. It might hurt to end things if that's the case, but better to find out sooner than later after countless booty calls and getting your hopes up...

[Optimist]

I would go straight for what you want and ask him out on a proper date. I wouldn't wait him out because for every chick who waits and gets the guy 100 wait and get the pump and dump. You might want to check this site out for a more in depth explanation of why emotionally unavailable guys will gladly have you over for a shag (you're like the ultimate delivery girl) but have no interest in anything you want like time together spent vertical and out in the public. Don't be surprised if he has other things going on and doesn't want you running into each other. www.baggaereclaim.com

[Kisca]

I would honestly give up some of the communication with him. Dont always be online, dont always reply, dont message him first. Give him space - if he runs to you then you know he is interested. But at what level - sexual or emotional?

If all you do is flirt and talk about round 3 etc - sex, then he is only interested in sex. Change the subject into something more suitable, if he ignores you, doesnt give you proper answer, restores back into sex then he;ll only want you for sex.

I meet my current bf, we started off fooling around, at 3 months mark I layed it down to him "look i'd like to be girlfriend and boyfriend, what do you want ? --- If you cannot give me an answer, or dont want a relationship I will need to stop seeing you." Either it will work or it wont, in the end I ended up being bored with my bf who started off being fun.

[Vyanka]

Three red flags that stick out here...

He told you he is a bad boy, he gave you a warning right there.

He doesn't believe in marriage(IDK if that's something you'd want in the future?).

He didn't even bother to even ask you for your number, he doesn't want to be too available.

No, do not bake him those cookies. He obviously doesn't want to be a BF.

[mikef]

Three red flags that stick out here...

He told you he is a bad boy, he gave you a warning right there.

He doesn't believe in marriage(IDK if that's something you'd want in the future?).

He didn't even bother to even ask you for your number, he doesn't want to be too available.

No, do not bake him those cookies. He obviously doesn't want to be a BF.

This has a high probability of being correct.

[Trem]

The way you've described this guy getting into a relationship would be a downgrade from a FWB situation, why would he want to do that? You can't make him want something than in his eyes would not be as good as what he already has, things just don't work that way.

[innes]

I'd still say go for it. Maybe not bake him cookies ... he's gotta work for that!
My bf said he never wanted to get married ... now he isn't like "OMG I WANT TO GET MARRIED" but he's more open to it. And from his responses I know he will at some point.

Sometime on FB say "hey I'm not going to be online for a while (Or have internet for a while), can I get your number so I can text you?" (maybe even say like "text you tomorrow" or "this weekend" or whatever)

Definitely just ask him on a date though. Movies ... skating ... swimming ... walk in the park ... bowling ... go karting ... museum ... fair ... dinner ... mini golf ... watching a ball game ... tons of ideas! Who cares if it's lame? It should still be fun!

[Kalypso]

I don't see any need for games. Just let him know you want to be with him in an exclusive relationship. He'll be with it or he won't. I mean...

[Optimist]

http://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/why-...onship+Blog%29

(snip)
The ‘passenger’ in casual relationships participates to use it as ‘backdoor’ entry to a committed relationship at a later date. For many people, having needs, expectations, and even standards from the outset is something they’re scared to risk even though it’s pure lunacy because to try to be involved with someone without these, is like turning up dressed as a doormat.

Acting casually wards off the threat of rejection and stretching yourself. There’s now such a fear of the vulnerability that comes with dating that it’s been watered down to the nothingness of a casual relationship. The hidden agenda is that you’ll ‘embed’ yourself and upgrade later. It’s like “I’m going to be a willing ear, easy going, indispensable, a great lay etc that they’ll want me around all the time.”

The ‘driver’ in casual relationships is all out for themselves using ‘honesty’ to downgrade the other persons expectations and standards. Casual relationships are about having all of the fringe benefits of a relationship without the relationship. Some would argue why they wouldn’t just have one night stands instead of, in some instances treating people like unpaid hookers, armchair psychologists, on board entertainment, and beards, but getting so much for so little, feels so much better than what may feel like the soulless experience of being with someone who doesn’t care about you and has no interest.

This is ridiculous when you think about it: Some of us need people to give a sh*t about us even when we don’t about them.

9 out of 10 people when told they’re a user will deny it but when someone exploits others to get their needs met, ‘using’, even if they’ve been ‘honest’, is actually what it is.

What we all need to do is be responsible for our emotional health and standards because the fact is, there are people out there that are only too willing to hold you to a lower standard in the name of ‘fun’ and ‘keeping things light’. You have to hold yourself to a higher standard than what they have in mind for you because the hidden agenda of being casual about your needs and then upgrading later is a painful, deluded plan because if someone can get everything out of you for little or no emotional and relationship contribution from them, the tone has been set and they’re cruising on easy street.(snip)

[carmen_b]

+1. And this is coming from someone that has been there. I wasted 3-4 months on an open relationship with D because the chemistry was crazy and he was a successful and cultured ( rendering him perfect in my eyes ) . You've got to pay close attention to the clues the guy is giving. If he isn't wanted to hang out much during the day , doesn't take you on real dates, and doesn't seem to be making much effort ...... you've got to add up the clues yourself and get an idea what is on his mind.

This has a high probability of being correct.

[carmen_b]

This is why I left my situation. I'm not sure what you want for yours but it's perfectly ok to tell men that you are more of a relationship person and not a casual person. It admittedly will weed out a decent portion but at least the ones you are left with are actually looking for what you want.

Not that I am the best relationship example ( by a long shot actually ) but at least I have a guy now who actually cares if I see other people ( he doesn't want me to ! ) . He also stays in touch while I'm a long long way away from him geographically which D just couldn't ever seem to do.

[url]http://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/why-using-casual-relationships-as-a-back-door-route-to-a-relationship-is-a-deeply-flawed-plan/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaig n=Feed%3A+BaggageReclaim- great lay etc that they’ll want me around all the time.”

The ‘driver’ in casual relationships is all out for themselves using ‘honesty’ to downgrade the other persons expectations and standards. Casual relationships are about having all of the fringe benefits of a relationship without the relationship. Some would argue why they wouldn’t just have one night stands instead of, in some instances treating people like unpaid hookers, armchair psychologists, on board entertainment, and beards, but getting so much for so little, feels so much better than what may feel like the soulless experience of being with someone who doesn’t care about you and has no interest.

[carmen_b]

I've always been pretty outspoken on my dislike for FWB situations. It seems like the core of this is the woman usually ( 90% of the time ? ) getting hurt and they guy going " Oh .... well ... there were no expectations so she shouldn't have gotten attached ". Well .... biology makes us get attached so it doesn't really matter if there is a relationship in place or not ..... as women we biologically are going to attached to the man we are intimate with.

[Kellydancer]

In my personal experience FWBs rarely become relationships. This is why when I've had FWBs it was always guys I knew could never be more.

Unfortunately, there are many red flags here. He will likely not be a relationship, whether there was sex or not. This is why I refuse to have sex with any potential boyfriends until theya re boyfriends and why I wait a long time for sex. The comments about him not wanting marriage could be because of his age, but also he really could be telling the truth and believe him. Trust me when I say listen to these comments. I wasted way too many months waiting for a guy who never came back. I didn't have sex with him (we just fooled around)but all that time I spent hoping he came back and hoping he changed his mind were months I could have been looking for a man who really wants to be with me. Luckily, I didn't take him up on his "offer" for sex because I'd likely feel worse.

Like mentioned guys who really want a relationship will show you. My best boyfriend showered me with gifts, took me to nice restaurants and called me everyday. Men who weren't all that into me (or just wanted sex)did none of this. I wish I had realized all of this at a younger age, but did not and am paying the price. Men will show you, there is never a question.

[carmen_b]

^ Yep. Even though I generally don't do FWB, I have had one and it was just a situation where I was attracted but he wasn't career stable which is a no go for me, so I kept it at FWB whether that is fair or not. He also talked like he was gay ! It was so weird. He was NOT gay. Lol.

Anyway ... yeah ... this guy will step up the effort or he won't.

[Brandi_Lynn]

Three red flags that stick out here...

He told you he is a bad boy, he gave you a warning right there.

He doesn't believe in marriage(IDK if that's something you'd want in the future?).

He didn't even bother to even ask you for your number, he doesn't want to be too available.

No, do not bake him those cookies. He obviously doesn't want to be a BF.

This exactly!! In my past experience, when talking about relationships or anything along those lines -men usually mean what they say. I wouldn't waste your time, if your itching for more than an occasional hookup. And it sounds like you are -so I would just cut contact. If he really wants you that bad he'll come up w/ any excuse to see you. Just make sure its not just sexual.

It is also really fucking weird you guy don't text or have each other's numbers. Weird.

Don't hurt yourself, dear.

[femmefatale88]

I think that he would have asked you out to dinner first if he was interested in you (in more than just sex). The sex came too easily/fast that now theres no going back or really hard to. He already sees you a certain way - FWB. He threw out those indicators that a relationship is not going to happen - being a bad boy and not believing in marriage. Just enjoy the eye candy and the sex for now but keep your eyes open for other guys who are more interested.

[FeministStripper]

I feel like I should say that I believe it's far too often the case that women stay invested in uneven, un-reciprocal relationships because they keep convincing themselves that all the ways the man they're involved with ISN'T saying what they want to hear is really him communicating it in some other, indirect way. Men lead us on sometimes, but more often than not I think we lead ourselves on; they just let us, and reap the emotional and physical benefits as long as the getting's good.

A man who tells you he's a 'bad boy' is often setting you up for everything he does being your problem because you knew what he was like ahead of time and got involved anyway. It's not friendly or helpful or honest; it's a tactic, a license to continue on exactly as he is without considering your feelings or needs.

It's very likely that you'd be 'great together' with the man he COULD be, not the one he actually is.

If you want to see how he actually perceives the relationship, don't have sex with him again. If he hints that he'd like to, don't pick up on it. If he's interested enough to actually ask why you're not up for 'another round', let him know that you like to keep your non-relationship encounters brief to avoid emotional confusion. Tell him it was really hot and you like to leave them wanting more; no point in wearing off the shine.

It seems like the way to deepen the relationship would be to continue being with him and showing him how great it would be if you were together, but it really just doesn't work out that way unless it was already going to. If you have that reaching, unfulfilled, not-exactly-ecstatic feeling about it, there's a reason; you can tell immediately when you've made a real connection, when you're the object of that deep, aching soul-desire instead of just affinity and lust. I've always found that it's lonelier to be with someone who knows lots about you, has been intimate with you and STILL isn't inclined to be open and available to you on the most fundamental level.

It's really hard to give up on the ideal when you meet someone who comes so close to it, but all those exciting qualities mean nothing if they're always under glass, where you can't touch them. The right one will willingly, enthusiastically incorporate all those same attributes into a life with you.

That doesn't mean you should give up; just evaluate the situation with open eyes, enjoy it as long as there's more pleasure in it for you than pain, and then don't be too sorry about not investing too much into something that's not ever going to pay off. You'll be able to tell which way it's going to go soon enough, especially if you don't try to hear things that aren't being said. Indulge your senses, enjoy the ride, but protect the tender parts of you.

[spartaca]

Just thought i'd come back to this thread and update you after all of your great replies.

It's over.

We had a very honest conversation #9not that we've been dishonest at any point). He told me that he has "massive feelings for someone else so it's not fair to carry on seeing you".

I know it seems kinda cut and dried but i know him well enough to know that he isn't a "bad boy", which is why i didn't take it at face value when he told me that, but i knew there must be something behind it and it turns out he's got 'massive feelings' for some 23 year old in New York who has boyfriend and is, well, she's 23! Quite a way to avoid being in a relationship; i know, i've used pretty much the same tactic in the past by declaring myself still in love with the boyfriend i had when i was 18, when deep down i was just trying to avoid being in a relationship.

I did tell him from the start that i don't do casual sex. But we skated along on a knife's edge so to speak. We never had a problem seeing each other in the daytime or socially - we're friends, we do that anyway and we both keep odd hours because of work so it's not as though it was just a 2am wham bam situation. Although i have now told him i don't think i can see him for a little while so am going to make an effort to avoid places he'll be.

He knows he's hurt me and feels bad about it and says that's why he never made a move in the time we've known each other. But then we're still hugely attracted to each other. He says he's confused. I told him he has to figure it out but i can't just be sex to him.

But thanks for all of your insight and advice. it's been invaluable.

Love
Spar xx

[Kellydancer]

Sorry to hear this. Unfortunately FWB can be a messy thing if one person develops feelings.