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Thread: 900,000 fewer Uninsured in the U.S.

  1. #26
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
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    Default Re: 900,000 fewer Uninsured in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    You're making stuff up again. There are countries with strong economies, such as Germany and Switzerland, that are able to provide affordable health care for everyone, and are able to pay any foreign lenders.
    For now. Let's see what happens as little as ten years down the road as the aging populations of both countries have to be supported by a smaller and smaller working age population.

    Both countries have systems that charge premiums to their citizens ( with subsidies for low income people ). As more and more people go into their last two years of life ( when at least 90% of lifetime health care costs are incurred ) the cost of the systems will go up and UP !

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    Default Re: 900,000 fewer Uninsured in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    I'm 'making up' the fact that Greece and Portugal are bankrupt because their gov't spending / debts ( of which health care benefits are a significant part ) are out of control ? Please inform the global news media so that worldwide market drops are only happening because of something I 'made up' !!!
    You're making it up that medical costs are being, "shifted to other persons, businesses, and/or gov't / taxpayers, and/or unpaid foreign lenders". In most cases, the people who receive the medical care are the same ones who pay the taxes.

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    Default Re: 900,000 fewer Uninsured in the U.S.

    No, that's not really true. Greece, for example, has extremely high youth unemployment and rampant tax evasion. Borrowing is the way things are done in that case.

    Portugal is similar, though with less tax evasion. Also rampant borrowing.

    Someplace like Sweden, yes, people are paying half their income and getting part of that back in health care access, daycare and all that kind of thing. But Sweden is an outlier in this regard.

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    Default Re: 900,000 fewer Uninsured in the U.S.

    I was referring more to the stronger economies in Europe, such as Germany and Switzerland, as I mentioned in a previous post, as countries where the same people getting affordable medical care are often the same people who pay for it.

    It's true that Greece has rampant tax evasion, which is one of the main reasons why the government is unable to pay its bills.

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    Default Re: 900,000 fewer Uninsured in the U.S.

    No, you're wrong about Germany as well. East Germans do not earn enough to cover the cost of the services they consume. They are subsidized by West Germany.

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    Default Re: 900,000 fewer Uninsured in the U.S.

    There are no East Germans any more, only Germans.

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    Default Re: 900,000 fewer Uninsured in the U.S.

    Germany's unemployment rate, as of August 2011, is 6%. Most Germans are working and paying taxes for the services they receive.

    http://www.google.com/publicdata/exp...y+unemployment

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    Default Re: 900,000 fewer Uninsured in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    You're making it up that medical costs are being, "shifted to other persons, businesses, and/or gov't / taxpayers, and/or unpaid foreign lenders". In most cases, the people who receive the medical care are the same ones who pay the taxes.
    I can't speak for anyone else, but according to stats I saw about Medicaid and Illinois, about 70% of those on the system here are illegals and their children (Illinois has a program for the parents of poor kids regardless of immigration status). Since most illegals don't pay taxes then it is obvious that in Illinois the ones getting assistance are not paying in. Actually in Illinois it is almost impossible to get assistance unless you are unemployed and have kids.

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    Default Re: 900,000 fewer Uninsured in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Germany's unemployment rate, as of August 2011, is 6%. Most Germans are working and paying taxes for the services they receive.

    http://www.google.com/publicdata/exp...y+unemployment
    Like the american unemployment statistics, that's not the only number you could use. The 'feet on the ground number' is much higher.

    That said, even with that number, it doesn't prove or disprove what you are claiming. You'd have to look at services consumed and tax burden and you haven't bothered with those numbers, because they would debunk your arguments in a hurry.

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    Default Re: 900,000 fewer Uninsured in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    I can't speak for anyone else, but according to stats I saw about Medicaid and Illinois, about 70% of those on the system here are illegals and their children (Illinois has a program for the parents of poor kids regardless of immigration status). Since most illegals don't pay taxes then it is obvious that in Illinois the ones getting assistance are not paying in. Actually in Illinois it is almost impossible to get assistance unless you are unemployed and have kids.
    Hi Kellydancer,

    I was referring to countries with universal healthcare, like Germany and Switzerland, rather than programs for the poor in the US.

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    Default Re: 900,000 fewer Uninsured in the U.S.

    Hi Eagle, I misunderstood what you meant. I will admit I don't know the percentages of working in universal countries, but if they have universal healthcare I would assume that would mean working and non working.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: 900,000 fewer Uninsured in the U.S.

    You'd have to look at services consumed and tax burden and you haven't bothered with those numbers, because they would debunk your arguments in a hurry.
    I was referring to countries with universal healthcare, like Germany and Switzerland
    Someplace like Sweden, yes, people are paying half their income and getting part of that back in health care access, daycare and all that kind of thing. But Sweden is an outlier in this regard.

    At the risk of brushing against a potentially political side of this issue, Sweden, Switzerland, and to some extent Germany attempt to achieve 'sustainable' tax revenue versus gov't spending balance via the following ...

    (snip)"They have very tough immigration laws if you are a NON EU or Non EEA national.They also make it very difficult to immigrate if you're not a citizen of a developed country.

    Swiss Citizenship cannot be gained unless approved by what is called a Canton or by others means.......where the citizens of the Canton in question must approve your application if you have held what is Called a C-permit and lived there for at least 12 years.

    Switzerland is also now apart of the Schengen agreement therefore they have access to the enhanced databases of the SIS throughout mainland Europe.The French cantons are considered to be easier w/ regards to Citizenship than the German cantons which are thought to make it extremely difficult to stay in the country."(snip)


    ... in other words, these countries limit access to social welfare / national health care benefits via limiting who is able to enter / stay in their countries. Or put another way, if you're not a citizen and you don't have a 'tax revenue generating' skill level, you don't get let into the country in the first place ... and thus don't get to collect social welfare / national health care benefits that you haven't 'paid for' via tax revenues !!! Additionally, if you are allowed to become a 'legal resident' of these countries because you do possess a skill that will 'generate tax revenue', absent receiving citizenship status ( after 12 years of successful employment and integration into the local community ) you are vulnerable to being 'expelled' if you lose your job and thus stop 'generating tax revenues'.

    Please understand that the ONLY relevant point here is that Sweden, Switzerland, and to some extent Germany share practically nothing with the USA in regard to their economics of national health insurance. As such, attempted comparisons between the USA and these countries are 'Apples and Oranges' in nature.

    according to stats I saw about Medicaid and Illinois, about 70% of those on the system here are illegals and their children (Illinois has a program for the parents of poor kids regardless of immigration status). Since most illegals don't pay taxes then it is obvious that in Illinois the ones getting assistance are not paying in.
    Based on the Swedish / Swiss model, Illinois would not have this 'problem' since A. illegal immigrants would actually be deported and not allowed to collect national health care or other social welfare benefits, B. legal immigrants would only be allowed 'permanent residency' and the right to work if they possessed high earnings potential skill levels plus general work history from a developed country, and C. legal immigrants who had not been granted citizenship would be given the 'boot' within a year of losing their high skill level jobs in Illinois.

    Greece, Portugal, Spain, and to some extent Italy, the UK etc. have much more in common with the USA in regard to national health care economics since they do not erect strong barriers against immigration by people without high income high tax revenue generating skill levels, against people from non-industrialized countries, against people who aren't likely to easily integrate into the country's 'mainstream' society and economy etc.

    Arguably, this leaves the USA, Greece, Portugal etc. with a significant number of low skill level 'residents' whose tax revenue contributions to the country's economy fall well short of the tax revenues (i.e. subsidized by others ) consumed to provide them with social welfare / national health care benefits. And by definition, any person ( or their dependent ) who is getting first time medical insurance coverage for treatment of an expensive 'pre-existing' condition, while being allowed to pay the 'average' medical insurance premium rate in exchange for that coverage, is also being subsidized by others ... which hopefully brings us back on topic @!

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 10-10-2011 at 09:18 AM.

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