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Thread: Solving America's teen sex problem!!

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    Thumbs up Solving America's teen sex problem!!

    The Dutch have dramatically reduced adolescent pregnancies, abortions and STDs. What do they know that we don't?


    When 16-year-old Natalie first started dating her boyfriend, her mother did something that would mortify most American parents: She took her to the doctor’s office to get her contraceptives. Her mother wasn’t weirded out by the fact that her teen daughter was about to have sex — in fact, she fully supported it. She merely wanted to make sure that she was doing it safely, and responsibly. A couple of months later, when it finally happened, her parents were totally accepting. As her father put it, “sixteen is a beautiful age” to lose your virginity.

    If that seems like an unfamiliar attitude toward sex and parenting, it might have something to do with the fact that Natalie’s parents aren’t American — they’re Dutch. They are one of dozens of Dutch families interviewed by Amy T. Schalet, assistant professor of sociology at the University of Massachusetts, in her new book, “Not Under My Roof.” Schalet’s book compares the sexual attitudes of American and Dutch parents and her findings are nothing short of staggering: Whereas most American parents panic about the idea of allowing their kids to have sex with other kids under their roof, for many Dutch parents, it’s not only fine — it’s responsible parenting.

    As Schalet’s extensively researched, fascinating work shows, the Netherlands’ radically different approach to sex and child-rearing has managed to radically decrease levels of teen pregnancy, abortion and sexual infections. It has fostered closer relationships between teenagers and their parents, and helped make teenagers’ first times far more pleasurable. “Not Under My Roof” is a startling wake-up call about America’s largely misguided attitudes toward sex and growing up.

    Salon spoke to Schalet over the phone about the sexual revolution, America’s “slut” problem and how the new generation is changing our attitudes toward sex.

    As you point out in the book, the statistical differences between American and Dutch teens when it comes to sex is pretty staggering.

    Yes. The pregnancy rate is about four times higher in the U.S. than in the Netherlands and abortion rates are about twice as high. HIV rates are about three times higher. Growing up in the Netherlands, I didn’t actually know of any teenagers who became pregnant as teens. Whenever I say that to Americans they’re always very surprised.

    But as you point out in the book, it’s not because American adolescents are having way more sex — it’s because the culture around sex is so different, and it’s especially ironic because people think America was so utterly transformed by the sexual revolution. Why didn’t those cultural changes filter down to the way we think about teens and sex?

    That’s the million-dollar question. When the sexual revolution did happen [in the Netherlands], contraception was made very widely and easily available, including to teenagers so the teenage pregnancy rate really dropped. In the Netherlands, there’s the belief that young people are capable of recognizing when they’re ready and self-regulating as opposed to the notion that they have raging hormones that are out of control. There’s the belief that young people can fall in love and that their sexuality is anchored in relationships so it becomes easier to accept and normalize relationships from about 16 to 17 onwards. And finally there’s been an attempt on the part of Dutch parents and the authorities to say, “This is happening, and we need to keep it from being secretive. We need to be able to keep control and be able to recommend that young people use contraception and see who they’re becoming involved with.”

    That seems counterintuitive to many Americans because they associate “sexual freedom” with things going totally awry. In the U.S., there was a strong counterreaction to the changes of the 1960s and ’70s. The religious right organized, and sexuality, especially teen sexuality, became a political issue. But regular people also feel the same way and think that teen sexuality is out of control. In the U.S. there’s a belief that, when it comes to sex, girls and boys are engaged in a battle instead of a relationship and there’s resistance to the idea that boys and girls can both feel both love and lust. It’s partly the result of the American emphasis on individualism that suggests that to become an adult, you have to first separate from your family and become completely self-reliant before you’ve earned the right to engage in sex. That makes it harder for parents to then integrate it into the family in the way Dutch parents have.

    As you mention in the book, in America we tend to separate sex and love — and don’t believe that teenagers are able to associate the two. Why do you think that is?

    To me that’s always very fascinating. When I did interviews in the U.S., I was really struck when parents would say, “Well, teenagers think they’re in love” and they would hold up their hands with quotation marks. The U.S. is very strongly tied to the model of marriage. We don’t want 15- or 16- or 17-year-olds to marry but we don’t think a relationship is love unless it’s the one and only, the person you’re going to marry forever. It’s also tied to individualism, because if you believe that intimate relationships are threatening to young people’s developments, and that you have to do things on your own first and then settle down, then everything you do before settling down is not going to be about love. And yet, young people do form relationships that are very important to them. They look different from adult relationships but they’re real relationships a lot of the time.

    As you point out in the book, there’s an emphasis in the Netherlands on making sure that a teenager’s first time isn’t just safe — but actually fun and pleasurable. That seems too alien to the way we learn about losing your virginity.

    I think that’s right. It is so difficult in the American context to say that a first sexual experience should be positive and pleasurable and one that one feels ready for personally, physically and emotionally. In the chapter about the Dutch parents, a father tells his daughter that she should never do it unless she has the desire for it. He acknowledges that his daughter might actually want it, and that is a very difficult thing in the U.S. context for a lot of parents to do, especially for girls.

    It’s fascinating that the “slut” label, as you point out in the book, doesn’t exist in the same way in the Netherlands as it does here. Here a lot of girls get called a slut simply for having a desire for sex.

    It exists, but even in the way it exists it’s much milder, and it’s really not about sex per se, it’s about the number of partners and especially the frequency or speed with which one would go from one to another. So if a young woman is in a relationship and she wants it and she enjoys it, that’s fine. I find this to be one of the most fascinating aspects of American culture that that remains so unspeakable.

    In pop culture, being a slut is considered either despicable or something to aggressively celebrate (i.e., the recent SlutWalks). But there isn’t much in between, especially for adolescent women, that just treats female sexuality as normal and healthy.

    I didn’t see the first episode of [the new TV show] “Suburgatory,” but the premise is that the father finds condoms in the drawer of his daughter and so they move to the suburbs to avoid sex. The girl is 16 or 17, and so there’s this idea that a father fulfills his parental duty by removing sex altogether. Of course he doesn’t succeed, and she ends up making out in the locker room or wherever. But I agree there are very few pop cultural models of young women having positive sexual experiences that are not in some way a cause of drama.

    Many of the American parents in the book have a kind of hilarious double standard. They are fine with their kids having sex outside of their home, but as soon as it happens inside their house they freak out.

    I don’t want to spoof it too much even though it does look silly. There’s really no narrative for American parents to draw on to understand a positive sexual development on the part of their children and how they’re supposed to relate to it. So the not-under-my-roof idea is the dominant understanding of what you do when you’re a responsible adult. So you do get situations where the mother knows her 17-year-old daughter’s boyfriend and that she’s on the pill but even though the mom knows she has sex with her boyfriend, the daughter is not allowed to be home with the door closed when the boyfriend is in her room.

    What do you think can be done to American sexual education to change this?

    I support comprehensive sex education. [laughs] I’m laughing because that’s the line everybody says, but I think that it’s important both in and of itself that young people learn about sexuality, contraception, relationships. I think there’s an absence of language about relationships [in sex ed] and that it should be integrated more into schools. Sex education, when done well, can help parents open up the conversation at home. In the U.S. this narrative gets created of “sex ed vs. the parents” as opposed to those two working in complementary fashion. Only half of American girls have had a conversation about contraception with their parents. In the Dutch case, one of the girls learns about the pill at school during what is called “relationship lessons” — yes, that’s really what it’s called — and she comes home and her mother explains that she also uses the pill.

    In a lot of public health campaigns and even with clinicians there’s such an emphasis on the risk, risk, risk, risk, without an emphasis on this is what you can do, this is how you can exert agency. Where exactly do you go to get contraception, and condoms? But I do see a lot of parents who want to be doing things differently. I speak mainly to professionals but they also respond as parents, and they’re really looking for a better way of recognizing that young people have real emotions, and to stay connected to teenagers during their adolescent developmental phase.

    It’s really hard not to think that things are so much better in the Netherlands after reading the book. It almost seems utopian.

    It’s not utopian. There is such an emphasis on relationships that sometimes the differences in power between girls and boys do not get as much attention as they perhaps deserve. Part of what goes on in the Dutch families is a system of control. It can be cozy, but it also can be a little claustrophobic. I think some of the American models of being able to deal with cultural difference within a society are a good thing, and I like to think that cultures can learn from each other.

    American culture does seem to be changing, though, in its attitudes toward marriage. Gay marriage is becoming more common and accepted, and straight people are staying single longer.

    I definitely think that the acceptance of gay marriage is a very positive development. I also see a shift among youth, away from the kind of narrow definitions of what is intimacy or acceptable intimacy. I think there’s a whole new generation of people that’s not saddled with the old antagonisms that came out of the 1960s. When I teach classes at the University of Massachussetts, students say, “We are the generation that will change things in the U.S. just like they changed in the Netherlands.” There’s a real interest among young parents in handling sexuality better than it was in their family. We need to figure out how to stop falling back on the marriage-only model and we need a model for a good relationship that isn’t necessarily for life but that still involves mutual respect, and honesty, and mutual obligation as well as enjoyment and pleasure.


    It's kind of long, but I completely agree with how they do things!!

    What do you think?




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    Default Re: Solving America's teen sex problem!!

    While I do not approve of teen sex because it's often such a terrible experience, not to mention teens for the most part aren't mature enough to handle possible consequences, I know that most teens will have sex (or at least consider it). If I had a teen, and the choice was between the teen having protected sex and no pregnancy/disease or a teen not using protection and becoming pregnant or getting a disease I would chose them using protection.

    I know the Netherlands is far more open sexually but I wonder if they glorify teen pregnancy like we do with reality shows. If not, I think this is part of the reason why have this problem here. Not just that, but it's become hip to become a teen parent and they don't realize it's not what it seems.

    For me the answer is for parents to be open about everything about it. I want sex education to talk about all options, from abstinence to forms of birth control. I also want kids to deal with babies before sexually active, showing them how to take care of babies. This would be a deterrent to many teens. I also like the idea of showing them what happens if you get diseases like AIDS. I want to really get the boys involved as well, and show them it's their responsibility too with a pregnancy because too many guys think it's cool to get someone pregnant.

    *waits to get flamed*

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    Default Re: Solving America's teen sex problem!!

    I don't recall teen sex being a terrible experience. Felt quite good actually.
    "Well done. Here are the test results: You are a horrible person. I'm serious, that's what it says: 'A horrible person.' We weren't even testing for that."

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    Default Re: Solving America's teen sex problem!!

    My daughter is 7, but when it comes time for her to have sex, or even before, I plan on putting her on birth control. Already, I have a supply of condoms. BF and I use them. Our daughter knows where they are and what they're for. In a few years, I plan on putting a supply in her bathroom and in her bed room. I was just lucky that I didn't get pregnant as a teen. I don't want her depending on luck.

    Z

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    Default Re: Solving America's teen sex problem!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trem View Post
    I don't recall teen sex being a terrible experience. Felt quite good actually.
    Excellent point Trem, it was fun! Still is!

    XOXO
    Z

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    Default Re: Solving America's teen sex problem!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trem View Post
    I don't recall teen sex being a terrible experience. Felt quite good actually.
    For guys it's always good. They don't often have pain their first time, or worry about pregnancy. Plus, most guys can separate sex and love and most women can't.

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    ^ I sooooo disagree with that, I definitely haven't found that most women cannot separate sex from love. Every female I know is totally comfortable with sexuality in general, and knows perfectly well that sex does not equate love. In fact, the only person I've ever met who had this problem was a guy.

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    Default Re: Solving America's teen sex problem!!

    Almost every woman I've known (outside of the sex industry)believed that sex=love. As that it was a "gift" you gave your SO. I don't feel that way myself and think the two things are different but almost every woman I've known disagreed with me. I've known many guys who will only have sex in relationships (I dated a few)but found most of them have related values, like most of them were religious or conservative.

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    Default Re: Solving America's teen sex problem!!

    Question: when was the last time anyone had a in-depth honest conversation with a teenager who has sex? Just wondering.

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    Default Re: Solving America's teen sex problem!!

    When I was 16 I spent a year in Europe as an exchange student....my host parents were very forthcoming about the fact that I should feel free to have all of the sex I liked but to be safe about it. Attitudes are much more liberal there...and I think more healthy for the most part.

    Teen pregnancy has been a problem in North America since long before reality tv. The states have the highest teen pregnancy rate in the industrialized world and have had for some time now so I don't think that is the cause. Not sure what is though.

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    Default Re: Solving America's teen sex problem!!

    According to studies I've read, apparently the increase started in the 70's. I think most of us can figure out why and there is many reasons why, and no not all are the fault of the teens. Some society changes destroyed this country, like the workforce itself (outsourcing). Btw, there were always teen pregnancies but back then (before 70's) there were really two choices: marry the dad or put the child up for adoption. Abortion was illegal and dangerous unless you could afford to pay a lot for one (or could go to countries with legalized abortion). My mom has told me that is was a stigma to get pregnant so "good girls" waited. I don't think all girls who got pregnant were bad girls, just confused more than likely (or perhaps thought the guy would stay and some did). Society as a whole though was more repressed and sex wasn't really talked about in the movies or on tv as it is now. Songs that were "suggestive" such as Let's Spend The Night Together were restricted and on the variety show Ed Sullivan sang as Let's Spend Some Time Together. I am not getting into whether this restriction was good or not because there is no clear answer.

    Here's a story I found about the whole Teen Mom show.

    Tabloids Glamorizing Teen Pregnancy By Putting Teen Moms on Covers?
    By Hollie McKay

    Published September 10, 2010

    Forget leaking sex tapes, getting multiple plastic surgeries, and fist-pumping. The latest way to get on the cover of a tabloid these days?

    Get pregnant and have a baby when you're a teenager, and do it on TV.

    Last month, Us Weekly featured an exclusive with "Teen Mom" star mom Farrah Abraham discussing the death of her 18-month-old daughter Sophia's dad, Derek Underwood, while her co-star Maci Bookout opened up about finding Mr. Right and feuding with her ex.

    On newsstands this week, People Magazine has "16 and Pregnant" stars Catelynn and Tyler sharing their “moving story” after choosing adoption for their newborn daughter Carly, and OK! has an “exclusive” cover story with “Teen Mom” Maci and her “Bitter Custody Battle” along with details of her quest to protect her son from “her slimy ex Ryan.”

    So are these magazines sending out the wrong message to young, impressionable readers by covering teen moms the same way they do Sandra Bullock and Angelina Jolie?

    “The media here is being extremely irresponsible by glamorizing teen pregnancy. We can look forward to a reality show in about 18 years based on these children growing up fatherless, as the cause of mommy's fame,” Los Angeles-based psychologist Nancy B. Irwin told Pop Tarts. “Teens by their very nature are self-centered; where does that leave the baby? Knowing you were only born to pole vault your mother to fame is not the healthiest psychological base for a child.”

    The Parents Television Council is also concerned with the potential impact turning teen moms into magazine cover girls could have on young readers.

    “Putting the stars of these reality shows on a magazine cover puts them on the same plane as any actress, singer, or other celebrity,” the organization’s Director of Communications and Public Education, Melissa Henson, said. “It is sending the message to girls that if you get pregnant as a result of being sexually active; you could end up on TV or a magazine cover.”

    Reps for People, Us Weekly and OK! did not respond with comment.

    The topic of kids having kids became a hot pop culture topic in 2007 with the release of the successful film “Juno” about same, and gained further traction with the ABC Family drama “The Secret Life of the American Teenager,” which became the network’s most watched series in the 12-34 demographic.

    One of the nation’s most famous teen moms, Bristol Palin, daughter of former Alaska Governor Bristol Palin, made a cameo appearance on the show as herself. She has also appeared on several tabloid covers, but more because of her on-again off-again relationship with her child's father. The now 19-year-old said that she does not condone teen pregnancy and feels abstinence is still the best, most viable form of contraception.

    “Abstinence is practical and very realistic for some people, but others don’t choose that path. For me, sex education was in school, and there are always people telling you that there are consequences to sex and blah blah, but you don’t really realize it until you’re in a situation where you are pregnant,” Palin , who recently became a Teen Abstinence Ambassador for the Candie’s Foundation fighting teen pregnancy, told Pop Tarts.

    But not everyone thinks its inappropriate for the tabloids to add to the fame of teen moms by making them cover stories.

    “We live in a culture where sharing your story and letting cameras into your life is rewarded with cash. These young moms have tremendous bills to pay. It's a smart way for a family in an economically adverse situation to generate income. It's a savvy business move and an entirely new way to look at home economics," said Hollywood pop culture expert Jenn Hoffman.

    And according to psychotherapist and parenting expert Alyson Schafer, magazines are not “given the charge of being socially conscious” and simply seek to satisfy the appetite of American audiences.

    “Magazines are for profit venture that have to report to share holders. We the public create a desire and the magazines feed our guilty pleasure – just like the reality shows these teen mothers are on," explained Schafer. "By the time someone is making enough of an impression on TV to warrant a coveted cover story, they are already deep into the business of drawing attention to themselves.”

    MTV’s idea of having a reality show on teen pregnancy was conceived – if you will – when Britney Spears' 16-year-old sister, Jamie Lynn, announced she was expecting her first child, and the intention was apparently never to make it look appealing or an easy ticket to fame and fortune.

    “(‘16 and Pregnant’) tackles tough issues including strained relationships, balancing school with new responsibilities, gossip, health issues and financial hardships,” read MTV’s press release. “Cameras continue to follow the teens for a significant amount of time after they gave birth to document how they cope with taking care of their infants while trying to maintain a semblance of their teenage life.”

    And despite the spike in teen pregnancy storylines, statistics from the Center for Disease Control and Prevention show that while the number of teen pregnancies in the U.S increased from 435,427 in 2006 to 445,045 in 2007 – they decreased by 2 percent in 2008.

    Additional reporting from Deidre Behar.
    Last edited by Kellydancer; 11-04-2011 at 10:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Solving America's teen sex problem!!

    I lived in the Netherlands and found this to be very much true. The positive attitude - didn't encounter "slut shaming" amongst people...and even though sex is no big deal and soft drugs are decriminalized...most people aren't raging whores and junkies.

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    Unfortunately the USA is still dealing with the Puritan Legacy, and it's likely to be with us for some time to come. This is where you get all these morons who think Prayer will keep kids of 14-16 years from wanting to try fucking.

    Right, sure...

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    Default Re: Solving America's teen sex problem!!

    Interestingly, I was in a Catholic teen group as a teen and there were more pregnant teens in that than at school.

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    Default Re: Solving America's teen sex problem!!

    What a great article!
    My family is European, and I have to say that they have always been far more open about sex. I lost my virginity at 15, to my long term boyfriend, using protection. I hope that my children can have such a positive experience when the time comes.
    Theres no sense crying over every mistake,
    you just keep on trying till you run out of cake

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    Default Re: Solving America's teen sex problem!!

    ^^^ As long as we're skirting political issues as part of this thread, I would also point out another very significant difference between the US and Holland where this thread topic is concerned. In Holland, an unmarried mom having children doesn't make a huge difference in social welfare benefit eligibility ... since health care and other benefits are available to the girl with or without children. In the US, if the girl is childless, odds are she won't be eligible for state health care and other benefits, but having a child out of wedlock makes both eligible. Having more than one child out of wedlock results in increased benefit levels. Thus the USA financially 'subsidizes' having children out of wedlock, where Holland does not.

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    Default Re: Solving America's teen sex problem!!

    Very true Melonie. I know where you are going and I agree with you.

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    Default Re: Solving America's teen sex problem!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ As long as we're skirting political issues as part of this thread, I would also point out another very significant difference between the US and Holland where this thread topic is concerned. In Holland, an unmarried mom having children doesn't make a huge difference in social welfare benefit eligibility ... since health care and other benefits are available to the girl with or without children. In the US, if the girl is childless, odds are she won't be eligible for state health care and other benefits, but having a child out of wedlock makes both eligible. Having more than one child out of wedlock results in increased benefit levels. Thus the USA financially 'subsidizes' having children out of wedlock, where Holland does not.
    Teenagers below 18 are considered children and are eligible for health benefits for children. In addition, with health care reform, if the children were on the parents' insurance, they can now stay on it until they're 26.
    Last edited by Djoser; 11-06-2011 at 07:23 AM.

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    ^^^ yes, true on its face due to recent changes in the law ... but ONLY where health care benefit eligibility is concerned, and also only true if a parent is working at a job which provides family health care benefits for employees. However, this was arguably NOT true when the vast majority of young unwed US mothers conceived their children, and remains untrue for unwed mothers whose parent(s) do not receive employer provided family health insurance benefits.

    Actually in my earlier post I was talking about a scenario where, say, an 18 year old girl wishes to live independently from her parents while working full time at an unskilled job. In the US, and absent the recent law changes regarding employee dependent health insurance coverage to age 26 ( which again also requires that a parent be an employee with family health care benefit coverage to start with ), this meant not qualifying for medicaid, food stamps, utility assistance, rent assistance etc. i.e. a near 'poverty' standard of living financed by an $8-9-10 an hour paycheck. Adding a baby to that equation instantly made the unwed mom eligible for all of those benefit programs ... thus providing a significantly higher standard of living overall for the unwed mom and her baby even if the unwed mom stops working ... well, as long as the 'baby daddy' is nowhere to be found, at any rate. Throw a second or third child into the equation and the overall benefits available get even larger.

    As with all gov't 'incentives', financially subsidizing certain activities pretty much guarantees that you'll get MORE of those activities taking place in the future ! And, due to the supposed politics ban, the economic facts are all that I can really speak to ( versus the 'cultural' aspects which were raised, on an arguably one sided basis, earlier in the thread ).


    And despite the spike in teen pregnancy storylines, statistics from the Center for Disease Control and Prevention show that while the number of teen pregnancies in the U.S increased from 435,427 in 2006 to 445,045 in 2007 – they decreased by 2 percent in 2008
    Again sticking to a factual discussion, the CDC 2008 data point appears to be anomalous.





    Broad 2008 data shows the number of unwed mothers, and the total percentage of births to unwed mothers, are again increasing. Viewed on a wider scale, the only actual decline in births to unwed US mothers was a marginal decline from 70% to 68% for unwed black US mothers during the late 90's. However, that percentage has now hit a new 'record' of 72%. And while I'm deliberately avoiding trying to point anyone toward the source article ... primarily because it discusses 'cultural' aspects of this topic in violation of the politics ban ... I will provide it on request.


    Unfortunately the USA is still dealing with the Puritan Legacy, and it's likely to be with us for some time to come. This is where you get all these morons who think Prayer will keep kids of 14-16 years from wanting to try fucking.

    Right, sure...
    I'm in total agreement with your point regarding the legacy of the Puritan ethic. However, statistics would tend to indicate that there is clearly 'something else' going on where unwed US mothers are concerned. I would assert that the 'something else' stems from the favorable economics of being an unwed mother .... which is far different in the USA than in Holland. In support of this assertion, I would point out that during the 2000's, at a time when US sex education, the availability of contraceptives and abortions, parental attitudes towards sex involving their teenaged children etc. had never been more 'liberal', the percentage of births to unwed US mothers still continued to increase rapidly ! If the availability of sex education, contraceptives, abortions, parental 'communication' etc, were truly a factor, one would expect that that the percentage of births to unwed US mothers would have dropped during the 2000's ... which clearly was NOT the case.


    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 11-06-2011 at 06:52 AM.

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    Default Re: Solving America's teen sex problem!!

    I had a friend that was like one mentioned in Melonie's article. Without going into it she had more incentive to take welfare than work. She was also trying to conceive more children to get more welfare. From a financial point, she was taking in thousands a year without paying any out.

    Contrary to what some think, I'm concerned about this issue from a financial viewpoint. I couldn't care less what people do unless I am paying for it.

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    Default Re: Solving America's teen sex problem!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ yes, true on its face due to recent changes in the law ... but ONLY where health care benefit eligibility is concerned, and also only true if a parent is working at a job which provides family health care benefits for employees. However, this was arguably NOT true when the vast majority of young unwed US mothers conceived their children, and remains untrue for unwed mothers whose parent(s) do not receive employer provided family health insurance benefits.

    Actually in my earlier post I was talking about a scenario where, say, an 18 year old girl wishes to live independently from her parents while working full time at an unskilled job. In the US, and absent the recent law changes regarding employee dependent health insurance coverage to age 26 ( which again also requires that a parent be an employee with family health care benefit coverage to start with ), this meant not qualifying for medicaid, food stamps, utility assistance, rent assistance etc. i.e. a near 'poverty' standard of living financed by an $8-9-10 an hour paycheck. Adding a baby to that equation instantly made the unwed mom eligible for all of those benefit programs ... thus providing a significantly higher standard of living overall for the unwed mom and her baby even if the unwed mom stops working ... well, as long as the 'baby daddy' is nowhere to be found, at any rate. Throw a second or third child into the equation and the overall benefits available get even larger.

    As with all gov't 'incentives', financially subsidizing certain activities pretty much guarantees that you'll get MORE of those activities taking place in the future ! And, due to the supposed politics ban, the economic facts are all that I can really speak to ( versus the 'cultural' aspects which were raised, on an arguably one sided basis, earlier in the thread ).




    Again sticking to a factual discussion, the CDC 2008 data point appears to be anomalous.





    Broad 2008 data shows the number of unwed mothers, and the total percentage of births to unwed mothers, are again increasing. Viewed on a wider scale, the only actual decline in births to unwed US mothers was a marginal decline from 70% to 68% for unwed black US mothers during the late 90's. However, that percentage has now hit a new 'record' of 72%. And while I'm deliberately avoiding trying to point anyone toward the source article ... primarily because it discusses 'cultural' aspects of this topic in violation of the politics ban ... I will provide it on request.




    I'm in total agreement with your point regarding the legacy of the Puritan ethic. However, statistics would tend to indicate that there is clearly 'something else' going on where unwed US mothers are concerned. I would assert that the 'something else' stems from the favorable economics of being an unwed mother .... which is far different in the USA than in Holland. In support of this assertion, I would point out that during the 2000's, at a time when US sex education, the availability of contraceptives and abortions, parental attitudes towards sex involving their teenaged children etc. had never been more 'liberal', the percentage of births to unwed US mothers still continued to increase rapidly ! If the availability of sex education, contraceptives, abortions, parental 'communication' etc, were truly a factor, one would expect that that the percentage of births to unwed US mothers would have dropped during the 2000's ... which clearly was NOT the case.


    ~
    The issue being discussed is teen pregnancy, not babies being born to unwed mothers. The teen pregnancy rate has fallen dramatically as a result more liberal policies towards sex, such as encouraging the use of condoms.

    http://micpohling.wordpress.com/2008...ate-1972-2005/



    The main reason for the increase in births to unmarried mothers is because fewer couples are now getting married. With far more women working and having careers, there has been less of a need for marriage. It is much more common for unmarried couples to have children today than in the past. Just because an unmarried woman becomes a mother doesn't mean she is doing it to get government benefits. Many unmarried couples support their child or children the same way married couples have traditionally done so. For the first time in history, the majority of households in the US are no longer married couples.

    http://visiontoamerica.org/1054/marr...me-in-history/

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    Default Re: Solving America's teen sex problem!!

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    The main reason for the increase in births to unmarried mothers is because fewer couples are now getting married. With far more women working and having careers, there has been less of a need for marriage. It is much more common for unmarried couples to have children today than in the past. Just because an unmarried woman becomes a mother doesn't mean she is doing it to get government benefits. Many unmarried couples support their child or children the same way married couples have traditionally done so. For the first time in history, the majority of households in the US are no longer married couples.
    I have seen two groups of unmarried women: career women you mentioned and the ones being discussed here. I have no real issue with the women who are career women having kids out of wedlock, though it's not something I would likely do (I am open to the possibility of adoption as a single woman though). What does bother me are those women having kids out of wedlock with no financial support. I know more women like this, but also know several women getting up in age and their clock is slowing down so they want a baby before it stops. Can't blame them really, because they want a baby but maybe not a man (or haven't found one). A family friend was strongly anti marriage and when she turned 40 she decided to get pregnant by her then boyfriend. They never married, never planned to, and I was fine with this and told her so. She's not a drain on anyone and makes great money. As for the couples who have kids without being married and are together, as long as they are happy and not a financial drain I don't care. Many though don't marry and stay together because of welfare. I seriously doubt that most people are that concerned with the career women having babies. I would caution though that there are more legal rights to being married than there are to just living together, and having kids has more more legal issues not being married than being married (though this is changing and many unwed dads are getting more rights).

    People always get me wrong on this and think I hate unwed parents of any type. Not at all, for me it's mostly a financial issue and while I may have some religious issues about this, it's mostly the financial. I couldn't care less what people do as long as it doesn't affect me and financially it does in many cases. When I mention out of wedlock I am usually referring to the women Melonie mentions. I realize accidents happen and I am not a believer in eliminating welfare completely either.
    Last edited by Kellydancer; 11-13-2011 at 01:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Solving America's teen sex problem!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zofia View Post
    My daughter is 7, but when it comes time for her to have sex, or even before, I plan on putting her on birth control. Already, I have a supply of condoms. BF and I use them. Our daughter knows where they are and what they're for. In a few years, I plan on putting a supply in her bathroom and in her bed room. I was just lucky that I didn't get pregnant as a teen. I don't want her depending on luck.

    Z
    Also, getting her vaccinated against HPV is probably a good idea.

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    Default Re: Solving America's teen sex problem!!

    ^^^ OK I took your bait and checked out the CDC statistics ... which states ...

    (snip)"The birth rate for teenagers 15–19 years increased 3 percent in 2006, interrupting the 14-year period of continuous decline from 1991 through 2005. Only the rate for the youngest adolescents declined in 2006, to 0.6 per 1,000 aged 10–14 years. Rates for teenagers 15–17 and 18–19 years rose 3 to 4 percent each. These increases follow declines of 45 and 26 percent, respectively, in the rates between 1991 and 2005. Between 2005 and 2006, birth rates increased 3 to 5 percent each for non-Hispanic white, non-Hispanic black, and American Indian or Alaska Native teenagers and 2 percent for Hispanic teenagers. The rate for Asian or Pacific Islander teenagers was unchanged. Teenage birth rates increased significantly between 2005 and 2006 in 26 states, representing nearly every region of the country.(snip)

    The only criteria for the CDC data is age group 15-19 ... which means that births to married women who fall within that age group are also included. Going back to my earlier point about the potential economic incentives for unmarried US mothers which was a direct response to the OP, the CDC statistics based purely on age group are less than meaningful. It WOULD however be helpful if the CDC made newer data available to see if the 2006 reversal in trend was continued.

    Personally speaking, I happen to both acknowledge and agree with you and Kellydancer that a rising percentage of US 'career women' with ticking biological clocks are now having children without 'inflicting themselves' with an other wise unneeded / unwanted husband ... which does group them into the category of unwed US mothers. However, I would assert that the relative numbers of such financially independent 'career women' unwed mothers are small. And they certainly have no bearing on either the OP's points or my counterpoint.

    Ultimately, non-financially independent Dutch teenaged girls who become pregnant place a burden on Dutch society ... but non-financially independent Dutch teenaged girls who do not become pregnant also place a burden on Dutch society ... and non-financially independent Dutch teenaged girls who give birth don't experience any significant change in standard of living versus those that do not. Forgive my saying so, but this is an inherent property of a socialist society. So any 'decision' regarding pregnancy by a Dutch teenaged girl is fairly immaterial from an overall economic standpoint. In contrast, US teenaged girls who face a 'decision' regarding pregnancy also face a significant positive change in standard of living as a result of 'deciding' to get pregnant and give birth. Injecting 'red herrings' will not make this basic difference go away !

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 11-06-2011 at 05:48 PM.

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    Default Re: Solving America's teen sex problem!!

    When i was 15 and had my first 'serious' boyfriend, my mother tried to talk to me about sex and get me on the pill. At the time I was embarrased and refused to listen and assured her I wasnt even considering having sex, which at the time I wasnt. I was even allowed to have said boyfriendin my room with the door shut. When I got a little older I was ready to have sex. i was lucky enough that he ended up being my future husband(now x husband) and we were together for 7 years. when we first started having sex, I still felt uncomfortable telling my mom and going to the dr(i was terrified of the exam). well she found out anyway when she found a condom wrapper, and took me to the dr the next day and now im so happy that she did. i was 25 when i got preg with my boys, and i dont know what i would have done if i had gotten preg with twins in high school or college(like most of my peers)

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