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Thread: Awesome energy concept

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Awesome energy concept

    I could be wrong but I believe a majority of the technological research and improvements currently being done (and there are a lot of them) are taking place in the US.
    That's unquestionably true. It's also unquestionably true, with a few exceptions, that said technological research is being funded by the US taxpayer ... either directly via gov't run institutions, or indirectly via gov't grants and R&D tax credits. And what goes unmentioned is the frequent fact that soon after US technological R&D results in useful new technologies ( recent example efficient solar panels and lithium batteries ), those technologies wind up being 'exported' to produce low priced 'clone' products in China which in turn bankrupts the higher cost basis US producer.

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    Default Re: Awesome energy concept

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    That's unquestionably true. It's also unquestionably true, with a few exceptions, that said technological research is being funded by the US taxpayer ... either directly via gov't run institutions, or indirectly via gov't grants and R&D tax credits. And what goes unmentioned is the frequent fact that soon after US technological R&D results in useful new technologies ( recent example efficient solar panels and lithium batteries ), those technologies wind up being 'exported' to produce low priced 'clone' products in China which in turn bankrupts the higher cost basis US producer.
    While the government is offering incentives, tax benefits and loan guarantees to encourage renewable energy development, there is also hundreds of $Billions of private money being invested by large corporations and individuals as well. There has never been a nuclear plant built without massive government assistance and oil and gas have of course received many times more incentives than renewable.

    As for your comments on the technology being exported and cloned- than can happen with a number of products and technology, but there are lots of other items that are way to complicated to be cloned or copied in that manner. Also, has been frequently mentioned the number of renewable companies that are going bankrupt is a tiny, tiny percentage of the number of companies that are currently operating. Big oil, auto and power companies are some of the leaders involved in the renewable industry and they are spending $Billions of their own money and creating tens of thousands of good paying jobs in researching, developing and delivering alternative fuel products and technology.

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    Default Re: Awesome energy concept

    Hot off the press:

    New super-cheap, ultra-thin solar cells could threaten fossil fuel dominance

    The march toward viable alternative energies may have just taken a crucial step forward. Twin Creeks Technologies, a US-based solar energy startup, unveiled this week a new type of ultra-thin solar cell that cost half as much to produce as comparable cells. The drop in price could allow solar to serve as a practical alternative to fossil fuels.
    http://news.yahoo.com/super-cheap-ul...161821405.html

    Raised a ton of venture capital and will also be creating jobs;

    "So far, Twin Creeks has raised $93 million in venture capital, and has also received a loan from the state of Mississippi to build its factory."

  4. #29
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    Default Re: Awesome energy concept

    unveiled this week a new type of ultra-thin solar cell that cost half as much to produce as comparable cells.
    ... meaning that they will only be twice as expensive as conventional solar cells produced in China where the cost structure is 1/4th that of the USA ?

    However, your link shows that this new company has essentially acknowledged from day one that their solar cells can't be produced economically in the USA. So their business model will 'only' involve developing the new technology and locking down new patents ... at which point they will sell out to the highest bidder ( who will in turn establish production outside of the USA ).

    This is probably a good deal for this new company and their private investors, net of US tax credits !!! However, it could potentially drive a nail in the coffin of every US solar company that is hoping to become profitable without ongoing US gov't subsidies. Oh, wait, that was a non-issue anyhow.
    Last edited by Melonie; 03-14-2012 at 01:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Awesome energy concept

    History has not been kind to those countries who want to price their oil in currencies other than U.S. Dollars...... It never works out for them.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_recycling
    The country has been looted.

  6. #31
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    Default Re: Awesome energy concept

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ... meaning that they will only be twice as expensive as conventional solar cells produced in China where the cost structure is 1/4th that of the USA ?

    However, your link shows that this new company has essentially acknowledged from day one that their solar cells can't be produced economically in the USA. So their business model will 'only' involve developing the new technology and locking down new patents ... at which point they will sell out to the highest bidder ( who will in turn establish production outside of the USA ).

    This is probably a good deal for this new company and their private investors, net of US tax credits !!! However, it could potentially drive a nail in the coffin of every US solar company that is hoping to become profitable without ongoing US gov't subsidies. Oh, wait, that was a non-issue anyhow.
    Yes, and "Gas is going to be $200 per gallon", "GM will be dead in a year", "Be prepared for the soon to arrive food riots in the US", "The Egypt uprisings are going to wreak havoc on the world economy".

    As with all the above your entire post is just another of an endless stream of negative predictions. The FACTS however are:

    Dozens of very well-paid engineers came up with this technology which is proprietary to the U.S.

    They are venture-capital backed and built a new factory and have exceeded their target of having 500 staff.

    While they may not manufacture everything in the US, they will be manufacturing and creating more jobs in the US.

    "The project will create 512 jobs in two phases, and it represents a company investment of more than $175 million. Initially, the facility will be 80,000-square feet, with plans to quickly expand to 250,000-square feet."

    “Breaking ground on our first solar technology manufacturing plant is a major step on our ramp to full production,” said Reza Nikfar, Twin Creeks vice president of worldwide manufacturing. “Building great products in Mississippi and growing our manufacturing capacity will be critical to our success. We are enthusiastic about hiring locally and making green energy products that are made in America.


    This article has so much to comment on from a number of different areas:

    1) The venture capital invested does a tremendous amount to stimulate the economy and will affect tons of related business, everything from the coffee store around the corner from the office/factory to the accountants who are doing the books and making payroll- there will be thousands and thousands of companies who will be receiving income because of this company and it's improvement in technology.

    2) Contrary to your view on low-cost jobs, here is a great example of some of the high paying tech jobs that are available in alternate fuel research and development that are financed by private money.

    3) Even if ALL the manufacturing takes place in China, this is still hugely positive for the US, with these huge reductions in Solar prices inevitably coming down the road we will more and more lose our dependence on foreign oil. Even if we derived no jobs or economic income from the design, creation and production from this technology (which we will) I would much rather buy solar panels from the Chinese once, than oil from the Middle East every month.

    4) There are thousands of companies just like this one working on innovations in all manner of alternative fuel and energy efficiency in the US. Many of them are privately financed and they are paying high wages.

    5) There is tremendous opportunity and income to be made by developing these alternate and energy efficiency type technologies. Despite what nay-saying critics like say the US is at the forefront and it represents a great economic opportunity which the US is uniquely qualified to exploit.
    Last edited by jimboe7373; 03-14-2012 at 08:54 AM. Reason: grammar

  7. #32
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    Default Re: Awesome energy concept

    Quote Originally Posted by jimboe7373 View Post
    Yes, and "Gas is going to be $200 per gallon", "GM will be dead in a year", "Be prepared for the soon to arrive food riots in the US", "The Egypt uprisings are going to wreak havoc on the world economy".

    As with all the above your entire post is just another of an endless stream of negative predictions. The FACTS however are:

    Dozens of very well-paid engineers came up with this technology which is proprietary to the U.S.

    They are venture-capital backed and built a new factory and have exceeded their target of having 500 staff.

    While they may not manufacture everything in the US, they will be manufacturing and creating more jobs in the US.

    "The project will create 512 jobs in two phases, and it represents a company investment of more than $175 million. Initially, the facility will be 80,000-square feet, with plans to quickly expand to 250,000-square feet."

    “Breaking ground on our first solar technology manufacturing plant is a major step on our ramp to full production,” said Reza Nikfar, Twin Creeks vice president of worldwide manufacturing. “Building great products in Mississippi and growing our manufacturing capacity will be critical to our success. We are enthusiastic about hiring locally and making green energy products that are made in America.


    This article has so much to comment on from a number of different areas:

    1) The venture capital invested does a tremendous amount to stimulate the economy and will affect tons of related business, everything from the coffee store around the corner from the office/factory to the accountants who are doing the books and making payroll- there will be thousands and thousands of companies who will be receiving income because of this company and it's improvement in technology.

    2) Contrary to your view on low-cost jobs, here is a great example of some of the high paying tech jobs that are available in alternate fuel research and development that are financed by private money.

    3) Even if ALL the manufacturing takes place in China, this is still hugely positive for the US, with these huge reductions in Solar prices inevitably coming down the road we will more and more lose our dependence on foreign oil. Even if we derived no jobs or economic income from the design, creation and production from this technology (which we will) I would much rather buy solar panels from the Chinese once, than oil from the Middle East every month.

    4) There are thousands of companies just like this one working on innovations in all manner of alternative fuel and energy efficiency in the US. Many of them are privately financed and they are paying high wages.

    5) There is tremendous opportunity and income to be made by developing these alternate and energy efficiency type technologies. Despite what nay-saying critics like say the US is at the forefront and it represents a great economic opportunity which the US is uniquely qualified to exploit.
    1) We have discussed numerous times the difference between "start -ups " and going concerns.

    2) I think this is great so long as it continues to be funded by PRIVATE money.

    3) Wait a minute. You approve of the Chinese stealing our technology ?

    4) Again, I think this is great and wish them every success.

    5) I have been hearing and reading about the great opportunities offered by "alternative energy" for over THIRTY Years ! The question is WHEN are they going to build and market economically viable products ?

  8. #33
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    Default Re: Awesome energy concept

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    1) We have discussed numerous times the difference between "start -ups " and going concerns.

    2) I think this is great so long as it continues to be funded by PRIVATE money.

    3) Wait a minute. You approve of the Chinese stealing our technology ?

    4) Again, I think this is great and wish them every success.

    5) I have been hearing and reading about the great opportunities offered by "alternative energy" for over THIRTY Years ! The question is WHEN are they going to build and market economically viable products ?
    In response to your pertinent questions:

    1. This company is already a going concern, their engineers have created the product and it's effectiveness is without question.

    3. Yes Eric, I'm in favor of the Chinese stealing our technology. Of course I'm not in favor of that, I'm in favor of US brain-power and engineers constantly creating technology like this and then selling it for hundreds of millions of dollars. I'm in favor of having a huge industry of innovation that generates $billions and provides high paying jobs with great benefits.

    5. Viable alternative energy products are all over the place. More and more products are making their way to the American market, small stuff like solar battery chargers and other personal items as well as solar street lights which are being installed in a lot of developments near me. The country I live in gets 65% of it's power from Hydroelectric.

    Here is a great example of what can happen if you don't have Oil lobbyists and close-minded people who are afraid to embrace new ideas and solutions:

    "Almost half of Brazil’s energy now comes from renewable sources, he added."

    "boosted employment by 25 percent and directly or indirectly created 300,000 jobs."

    Brazil supplies 48 percent of its vehicle-fuel needs from bio-fuel,” he said. “The world average is two percent. Ethanol from sugar cane has been proved to reduce greenhouse gases”

    “Brazil generates 85 percent of its power from hydro generation – the world average is 16 percent.
    46 percent of Brazil’s energy comes from renewable sources: triple the world average. Hydro power is the cheapest way to generate electricity in the world. The Brazilian model has created competition with the sector and produced cost-effective energy without government subsidy."


    "One delegate suggested that fossil fuels were a lot cheaper than renewable energies,
    Cavalcanti replied that oil would not always be cheap: “Brazil is also an oil producer. But in Brazil we also use thermal generation with gas, coal, wind power and co-generation. Our cheapest source of energy is hydro power. We produce ethanol from sugar cane, and even without a subsidy, it is 60 percent cheaper than the price of gasoline.”

    http://www.afdb.org/en/news-and-even...otential-8670/

    Brazil started this process a while ago with incentives and subsidies from the government and it has grown to be self-sufficient and profitable.


    As for subsidies etc, here is a good article on ethanol needing subsidies to get started and then being viable without them:

    "Six billion dollars in subsidies to US ethanol blenders expired last month. It came and went, like a pro athlete being hit with a speeding ticket en route to signing an endorsement deal worth some ungodly sum."

    "Ethanol makers say they don’t need the payouts. “The industry has now matured to the point that it can survive without the tax credit,” assured Jeff Broin, the founder and CEO of Poet, the world’s largest ethanol producer, in response to the decision. Nor, he announced a few weeks later, would the company need the $105 million loan guarantee promised to it by the Obama administration to build a commercial-scale cellulosic ethanol plant."

    "Corn ethanol technologies have improved productivity by half from 15 years ago, generating some 450 gallons per acre, says the RFA. Moreover, the fuel injects $53 billion into the US gross domestic product."
    http://www.farmchemicalsinternationa.../?storyid=3430

  9. #34
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    Default Re: Awesome energy concept

    Quote Originally Posted by jimboe7373 View Post
    In response to your pertinent questions:

    1. This company is already a going concern, their engineers have created the product and it's effectiveness is without question.

    3. Yes Eric, I'm in favor of the Chinese stealing our technology. Of course I'm not in favor of that, I'm in favor of US brain-power and engineers constantly creating technology like this and then selling it for hundreds of millions of dollars. I'm in favor of having a huge industry of innovation that generates $billions and provides high paying jobs with great benefits.

    5. Viable alternative energy products are all over the place. More and more products are making their way to the American market, small stuff like solar battery chargers and other personal items as well as solar street lights which are being installed in a lot of developments near me. The country I live in gets 65% of it's power from Hydroelectric.

    Here is a great example of what can happen if you don't have Oil lobbyists and close-minded people who are afraid to embrace new ideas and solutions:

    "Almost half of Brazil’s energy now comes from renewable sources, he added."

    "boosted employment by 25 percent and directly or indirectly created 300,000 jobs."

    Brazil supplies 48 percent of its vehicle-fuel needs from bio-fuel,” he said. “The world average is two percent. Ethanol from sugar cane has been proved to reduce greenhouse gases”

    “Brazil generates 85 percent of its power from hydro generation – the world average is 16 percent.
    46 percent of Brazil’s energy comes from renewable sources: triple the world average. Hydro power is the cheapest way to generate electricity in the world. The Brazilian model has created competition with the sector and produced cost-effective energy without government subsidy."


    "One delegate suggested that fossil fuels were a lot cheaper than renewable energies,
    Cavalcanti replied that oil would not always be cheap: “Brazil is also an oil producer. But in Brazil we also use thermal generation with gas, coal, wind power and co-generation. Our cheapest source of energy is hydro power. We produce ethanol from sugar cane, and even without a subsidy, it is 60 percent cheaper than the price of gasoline.”

    http://www.afdb.org/en/news-and-even...otential-8670/

    Brazil started this process a while ago with incentives and subsidies from the government and it has grown to be self-sufficient and profitable.


    As for subsidies etc, here is a good article on ethanol needing subsidies to get started and then being viable without them:

    "Six billion dollars in subsidies to US ethanol blenders expired last month. It came and went, like a pro athlete being hit with a speeding ticket en route to signing an endorsement deal worth some ungodly sum."

    "Ethanol makers say they don’t need the payouts. “The industry has now matured to the point that it can survive without the tax credit,” assured Jeff Broin, the founder and CEO of Poet, the world’s largest ethanol producer, in response to the decision. Nor, he announced a few weeks later, would the company need the $105 million loan guarantee promised to it by the Obama administration to build a commercial-scale cellulosic ethanol plant."

    "Corn ethanol technologies have improved productivity by half from 15 years ago, generating some 450 gallons per acre, says the RFA. Moreover, the fuel injects $53 billion into the US gross domestic product."
    http://www.farmchemicalsinternationa.../?storyid=3430
    1. And the sales numbers are what ? The profit margin is how much ?

    3. So am I. EVERYONE is in favor of that. The question is HOW do we get there ?

    5. Those dirty, rotten , stinking, selfish and greedy oil companies are some of the biggest investors in alternative energy.

    I am all in favor of more hydropower. Please tell me how we get the "greenies" on board to build more hydro plants ?

    We have discussed ethanol numerous times in this forum. In a nutshell, ethanol from sugar cane good ; from corn bad, because it uses so much energy to produce AND it plays havoc with world food prices.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 03-14-2012 at 11:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Awesome energy concept

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    1 And the sales numbers are what ? The profit margin is how much ?
    Sales numbers and profit will be following very shortly. The important thing at this point in time is that A) They have raised many millions of dollars of private money and injected it into the economy and B)They have created a lot of high paying jobs.

    3. So am I. EVERYONE is in favor of that. The question is HOW do we get there ?
    You get there Eric, by encouraging firms like this one to make innovations like this and then you sell them, just like this company did:

    "MERRIMACK, USA: GT Solar International Inc., a global provider of polysilicon production technology, and sapphire and silicon crystalline growth systems and materials for the solar, LED and other specialty markets, has received its first two orders totaling more than $84 million for sapphire crystallization systems."

    "The orders come from Jiangsu Jixing New Material Co. Ltd and Jiujiang Sapphire Tech Co. Ltd. Total annual production capacity of the two orders is approximately eight million two-inch equivalents (TIE) of sapphire substrates."

    "The two orders in combination with other DSS and polysilicon orders bring GT Solar’s Q3 quarter-to-date bookings to more than $245 million and strengthen the company’s view for a strong FY 2012 based on the pipeline of orders still under discussion with customers."

    http://pcsolarpv.blogspot.com/2010/1...rders-for.html

    5. Those dirty, rotten , stinking, selfish and greedy oil companies are some of the biggest investors in alternative energy.
    Yes they are. They however will block and obstruct to the best of their ability anyone's effort that does not coincide with their profit margin or control.

    I am all in favor of more hydropower. Please tell me how we get the "greenies" on board to build more hydro plants ?
    Easy, you do this:

    "They’re not talking about building new dams, which have questionable environmental benefit, but rather to remove barriers to developing cost-effective hydropower at existing dams and waterworks."

    "The US Department of the Interior, the Department of Energy (DOE), and the US Army Corps of Engineers are quietly laying the groundwork for a renewable energy boom that you might not expect....environmentally sustainable hydropower."
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomkonra...dropower-boom/

    Now if you can provide some ideas on how we can keep the oil lobbyists from trying to delay or kill these initiatives.

    We have discussed ethanol numerous times in this forum. In a nutshell, ethanol from sugar cane good ; from corn bad, because it uses so much energy to produce AND it plays havoc with world food prices.
    Of course, the simple solution is to get the fuel from the husk or waste-product of the corn or other bio products. This is already be done elsewhere but is blocked or obstructed in the US:

    "The company realized that one waste product in Bihar—rice husks—could be used to power a small biomass gasifier. Along with rice husks, they also use mustard stems, corncobs, grasses, and other agricultural residue. After five months of R&D, they developed a system that could produce 32 kilowatts of power by burning 50 kilograms of rice husk per hour. In the last four years, they’ve installed over 80 biomass mini-plants across Bihar, bringing power to more than 32,000 rural households."
    Source: Clean Technica (http://s.tt/15lOe)
    http://cleantechnica.com/2012/01/23/...th-corn-husks/

  11. #36
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    Default Re: Awesome energy concept

    1. We will see. Sorry for being a skeptic about SOME of this stuff but this movie has been playing for a LONG time.

    2. Experience and history have proven, to me at least, that the best way for picking winners and losers is to let the free market do it.

    3. Oh I know. It is outrageous that oil companies want technologies that are or will be profitable. I mean , who do they think they are ?

    4. From your lips to God's ears on hydropower. Again, I'll believe it when I see it. And I hope I am wrong.

    5. Again, we have a working model for efficient ethanol production - Sugar Cane ! It is no accident that Brazil has been able to make ethanol pay. They use sugar cane which requires less energy than other crops and organic "mashes". We could and should do likewise.

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    Default Re: Awesome energy concept

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    1. We will see. Sorry for being a skeptic about SOME of this stuff but this movie has been playing for a LONG time.
    We are at a tipping point in terms of technological innovation, motivation from large segments of the planet and a diminishing stranglehold that the powers-that-be have over suppressing, delaying and obstructing it's development and implementation.

    2. Experience and history have proven, to me at least, that the best way for picking winners and losers is to let the free market do it.
    I agree with you 100%, if the US ever gets a legitimate free market in certain segments of the economy where we are currently lacking it, it will absolutely be the best way to pick winners and losers.

    3. Oh I know. It is outrageous that oil companies want technologies that are or will be profitable. I mean , who do they think they are ?
    There is nothing wrong with making profit, suppressing technology, having lobbyists influence politicians to pass laws and policies that benefit them at the expense of the country and it's citizens while simultaneously keeping from being passed laws and policies that assist the best interests of the country, colluding to limit or eliminate competition and quite a few more offenses however is not a good thing and should not have a place in a "free market" economy.

    5. Again, we have a working model for efficient ethanol production - Sugar Cane ! It is no accident that Brazil has been able to make ethanol pay. They use sugar cane which requires less energy than other crops and organic "mashes". We could and should do likewise.
    Well, this is just one example of big-business interests colliding with the best interests of the overall economy and the country itself. You likely won't see anything like that until one of the "connected" operators gets involved and figures out a way to control as much of the market and the pricing as possible. Ever see the movie "Tucker"? not much has changed.

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    Default Re: Awesome energy concept

    The important thing at this point in time is that A) They have raised many millions of dollars of private money and injected it into the economy and B)They have created a lot of high paying jobs.
    However, when one digs far enough to discover the TRUE economics, taxpayers should shudder !!!

    This morning FoxNews reported that one of the latest 'green energy' projects, an algae fuel developer, plans to create 70 'high paying jobs'. In exchange, the company has received 2 billion dollars worth of tax credits. Thus taxpayers will be 'spending' 28 million dollars per 'high paying job' created !!!

    The real money story isn't about 'green energy' workers, it's about 'green energy' investors - who can take those tax credits and apply them against taxes due on more conventional and profitable investments that they also own. In extremely skeptical language, with a 36% effective tax rate on the millionaire class, receiving tax credits essentially equals a gov't guaranteed investment with a far greater effective rate of return than is available from gov't bonds.

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