




"Fake tits are like Kevlar. They don't guarantee your chances of survival but they sure as hell improve it."
Tempest





His wife, Rosemary, said: "If it were not for my children, I could have divorced him a long time ago.
"But because I know the trauma that divorce has on children, I made a decision to stay."![]()
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Oh and![]()



^ How silly. Why would that be such an eye-roller?
I could see if the guy was an addict or was abusive to her and the children. But in the absence of things like that, there is nothing wrong with considering your children's welfare when thinking about separation.
The only thing that is more emotionally damaging to kids other than divorce is sexual abuse. This is a fact. And I have no respect for parents who refuse to take that into account when contemplating breaking up. They can spin it however they want to, and they often twist themselves into a pretzel to try and do so, but there is nothing behind that mentality other than stupidity and selfishness.
THANK YOU. This is an issue that is so brushed under the rug.
The children of people should be FOREMOST when thinking about divorce. As the product of a divorced household, I have firsthand experience here. There have been so many problems in my family cause by my parents' divorce, and years later, they both expressed to me that it would have been better for everyone if they'd just stayed together, sucked it up, and worked on their problems.
Staying together for the kids' sake is a good thing.




I wish that my parents had gotten a divorce instead of staying together. Then I would have been able to stay away from my asshole father by requesting my mom have custody and be surrounded by people who had at least A CHANCE of being happy and showing me what "working" and healthy relationships are.
my parents staying together has pushed my brother and sister into an ongoing cycle of problematic and highly dramatic relationships and has shown both of them that happiness isn't something to be considered "high priority". Both of them get into and stay in dysfunctional relationships because, in my opinion, they were never given a healthy model for happy and functioning relationships. I exclude myself from this because I had a lot of counselling that basically reinforced my beliefs on why my brother and sister are always so unhappy.
I am not saying that divorce isn't hugely traumatizing and that it doesn't make for fucked up kids but there is no way that I can look at my childhood and family and think. Oh yes, that was OBVIOUSLY in my best interests. My mother and father would scream at each other all the time, my father would follow me around screaming at me, neither of my parents were ever happy... and what... that was in my best interest?
I fucking wish that I had some happy adults in my life.
how about a source to back up this fact?The only thing that is more emotionally damaging to kids other than divorce is sexual abuse. This is a fact.



It's an eyeroller because obviously staying together was NOT a good decision for this family.
They are CLEARLY a fucked up group of people.
Maybe a divorce would have prevented the husband from sneaking off to buy prostitutes, and maybe the daughter wouldn't have grown up to be a hooker had she been raised in a happier household![]()
*disclaimer* I know not all escorts are from fucked up households, but generally speaking a happy, healthy, average child does not grow up to be a prostitute because its frowned upon in society. Every escort doesn't have to tell me how great her childhood was![]()
"We are the coolest mothafuckas on the planet....The sky is fallin ain't no need to panic"... -Outkast




I cut out the rest of this because I don't agree with it. My sister is in law school and I am a stripper, soon to be camgirl and if it were legal, would be an escort.
this is a really big thing to me. Like I said above, my parents stayed together for the kids and because of that, neither of them was able to be happy which created other problems for them and therefore, the family. Like I said, my father was very verbally and emotionally abusive. I truly believe that if he were able to go and do what he wanted instead of being stuck in a relationship / situation that he didn't really like, he wouldn't have been like that or would at least be able to request custody that reflected his feelings.
maybe not directly because of my father and his actions or whatever but my mother also has an anxiety disorder that I think is caused partially (if not just elevated by) my father's attitude. It is impossible for me to be around him for any period of time because he just gets my stress level up so fast. Being away from my family has created so much stability in my life.
it put so much strain on me to be in a household where I knew that I would be coming home from school to the yelling (that I knew was inappropriate considering the fact that hardly anyone I knew had parents who would yell at their kids like that). It also created an environment among the kids (older sister who I hate, younger brother I really like) that was very unhealthy. Abuse is learned and because of that, I have siblings who are almost incapable of expressing themselves without yelling, gaslighting or being giant pricks when you disagree with them. Yelling, talking over each other and being rude or dismissive is nothing out of order among them. And they wonder why I don't like being around them.
do I think that my life would be perfect if my parents had gotten a divorce? Not by any means. Do I think it would have been better? Absolutely. Even being around that group of people (not so much my brother) makes me so on edge and I hate having people have to meet them. I always give out a huge disclaimer and it does come back to the fact that unhappy people are mean to the people who make them unhappy. It's a horrible cycle that I think should have been broken.
I think that people need to think about their childrens' welfare when deciding to get a divorce or not but it does come down to a quality of life thing for the parents, as well. Unhappy parents = unhappy household = unhappy children.


Thank you Luscious Sadie and Kikidejavu! My parents divorced when I was young so I don't remember them together, but I stayed 15 years in a miserable, loveless, one-sided marriage FOR THE CHILDREN, and when I finally left his ass and divorced him, the kids asked me why I didn't do it sooner? Sometimes it's more traumatic to stay together...for the kids sake.





ditto sadie. id rather have happily separated parents than a dysfunctional relationship with parents staying together.
my mother divorced 3 times. i am expert.
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I'm glad to hear that your kids were supportive. I found out that my parents came extremely close to getting a divorce recently and was kind of let down when I found out that they didn't.
I just want them to be happy and don't know if they can be while they are together. They have recently started going on trips together and that's good. However, I see how they treat each other and the kids and I can't help but think that isn't how people who love each other should treat each other.





p.s. would cause me a bigger trauma to watch my mum suffer than a divorce.
i would say more about my past but yeah kinda dont wanna talk about it
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I'm beginning to wonder if some of you even bothered to read my post before responding...
I thought I made it clear that when there is a persistent pattern of emotional or physical abuse toward a spouse and/or children, divorce is understandable. So Sadie's post is hardly a counterargument or even relevant to the point I was making.
Kiki's defense of the eye-rolling was also flimsy at best. I know girls who escort because they're poor, I also know married men who pay for sex because they're horny and just want a young piece of ass. None of this "proves" that this was a fucked up family who were better off broken up. In fact, the protective attitude of the father after the shock had worn off indicates that he's actually a caring and understanding parent.
Now I know divorce is one of those things that people will passionately defend despite all evidence (more on that later). I personally have a colleague that exhibits a lot of the symptoms of a broken-home upbringing and still defends it as a wonderful thing while he gets ready to leave his wife and three-year-old son for no other reason than that in his own words he's bored with marriage. (And if you listen to him long enough, he'll try to convince you that he's doing his kid a favor!)
But research overwhelmingly shows that in the absence of abuse, divorce is a worse alternative for kids than an intact family, and that children from broken homes tend to do worse in almost every category compared to their peers in both short and long term. If you don't believe me, Google is your friend. Here's an excerpt from one of the countless articles you'll find on the subject:
Many of these youngsters describe themselves as having emerged stronger and more independent as a consequence of their parents’ divorce (boy that sounds familiar). Yet there was a bittersweet quality to their statements.
Physically, these participants reported poorer physical health than children from intact families.
Emotionally, they indicated persistent problems with the following:
•Fears of betrayal, abandonment, loss, and rejection.
•Rising anxiety in late teens and early 20s—feelings and memories about their parents’ divorce arise with new intensity as they enter adulthood.
•Life-long vulnerability to the experience of loss.
•Anger, resentment, and hostility.
•A reduction in psychological well-being.
•Depression in young adulthood.
•Low life-satisfaction.
Socially, the children’s relationships in later life were affected as follows:
•Divorcing parents apparently set the stage for children’s poor relationships.
•Reduction in the ability to develop and maintain supportive friendships and dating relationships.
•Children of divorce are more likely themselves to divorce as adults.
•Earlier sexual intercourse.
•Delinquent behaviors.
•Daughters of divorce are more likely to:
—Marry and have children early
—Give birth before marriage
—Divorce
•Fear of repeating his or her parents’ failure to maintain a loving relationship.
•Fear of commitment and intimacy.
•Less trust in future spouse.
•Reduction of inhibitions toward divorce as a solution for marital difficulties. (hmmm...)
•Lower socioeconomic status.




I wasn't providing an argument or counter argument or whatever. I was simply sharing my opinion and my experience. I was also asking you to provide a reference on something that you claimed to be a well known fact, which you did (though I still don't agree with it).
I think that it is very deluded to say that all children benefit from being in a non-divorce family. Even if my family didn't have the abuse that is present, I don't think that I would want to grow up around two people who are unhappy and who have the chance of being happy. I also think that losers are losers and your coworker, who is obviously a giant tool and shouldn't have been married or had kids, isn't really a model for your "they always try to explain why divorce is better" point.
It's easy to say that divorce is ALWAYS unhealthy because we definitely do hear more about unhealthy divorce but we have to remember that the same is said about sex workers all having issues and being drug addicts and stupid. Obviously there are a lot of fuck ups out there and they definitely do get a lot of attention, but then there are people who are doing their thing and providing a safe place for their children while having a "healthy divorce" agreement.
I think it should also be pointed out that a lot of research is done on divorce as "how does divorce negatively affect children" because that is way easier to measure than the positive affects. Obviously it's hard. Obviously blended families are hard. Obviously it's easy to collect statistics like "did you have a divorce?" etc. but what about the children like me who were in families that could have benefitted from divorce? Regardless of abuse or addiction or whatever, what about the kids who had to watch their parents be unhappy and "fake it" and because of that ended up in relationships where they were unhappy? It's awfully hard to get those statistics, no?
here are some things that are worth checking out
"But is it any better to experience the emotional and mental abuse of listening to your parents scream at each other every day? To be reminded every time you turn around that the two people you love most can't stand each other? Rightly or wrongly, parents are the model for a child's future adult romantic relationships -- do you really want your sons and daughters to re-create your dysfunctional marriage in their own lives? And don't you think that kids can sense when parents are "faking" it? What is that teaching the next generation -- that to live disingenuously is somehow heroic? I believe that parents are responsible for teaching their children how to function successfully in the world, and that includes navigating adult relationships in an honest and open manner. If all you teach your kids to do is lie, how are you helping them mature?"
http://www.ramonacreel.com/BlogEntry.asp?Entry=819
For many years there was a lot of negativity in our marriage. I am not a negative person. Many of my readers know that I am eternally optimistic. There’s a silver lining in every cloud. I truly believe this. I am not going to get personal so as to protect those around me, but I knew that I had to pull my children away from the negativity. I was starting to worry about their futures…I worried that my daughter might let a future boyfriend, lover or spouse speak unkindly to her. I worried that my boys would repeat this pattern, that they would think it to be Ok. It is never OK. I am a strong woman. My boys need to see that. My daughter needs to see that.
http://thedailybasics.com/thats-life...05/37114/37114
I think also that it is important to google (since it's your friend) "how do unhealthy relationships impact children" because that will give you the flip side of this argument. It's easy to say that divorce is wrong for everyone and that everyone should try to work it out but there are times that you can't work it out and saying that it is proper for families to stay together for the kids' sake really doesn't do anything other than create a group of unhappy people.
AND AS A LAST POINT.
it doesn't prove anything. First of all, this is an article and not a stakeout on how the family reacted. They can say that they react however they want to. It's easy to say "yes we all forgive each other, press!" because well. hey, that looks better than "we hate each other and can't be in the same room." As well, it's obvious that the father didn't go to the prostitute because he wanted to tap young ass. He was unhappy in his marriage and trying to stick it out wasn't working for him so he was trying to have an affair. Is that really a caring parent? Having affairs, spending money on prostitutes and dealing with the consequences of that as opposed to getting a divorce and being able to engage in non-paid sexual relations?In fact, the protective attitude of the father after the shock had worn off indicates that he's actually a caring and understanding parent.
regardless of all that wall of text, neither one of us is going to shift our views. I think that it's easy to sit here and say "divorce is stupid and THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" However, in life, one model isn't always the right fit for everyone and I think that it is ignorant to make a sweeping statement of how divorce always negatively impacts children.




I just wish I could have seen the looks on both of their faces!![]()
Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once.



I guess the only way we'll ever know how divorce affects a child is after that alternate universe is created and we can stick the dopplegangers side by side![]()
"We are the coolest mothafuckas on the planet....The sky is fallin ain't no need to panic"... -Outkast




exactly. It's like most things that are kind of immeasurable. Sure, it's easy to say "this causes this" but everyone reacts differently and every situation is different.
as an aside, I once told someone they must have a doppelganger and they looked at me and said "I don't read that Harry Potter bullshit" and walked away.
It's infinitely better for children to grow up in a "broken home" than in a home that should be broken, but isn't. My husband's parents fucking hate each other and are miserable, rotten, manipulative, controlling, and abusive people who constantly tried to turn their kids against each other. They should have gotten divorced thirty years ago. And my ex boyfriend's parents got divorced when he was in his early 20's, and he told me that they should have gotten divorced decades earlier, because the longer they stayed together, the worse it was.
I think there are some marital problems that SHOULD be worked out instead of rushing to a divorce...I think a lot of people just aren't willing to put any work into a relationship. But those couples that have a toxic relationship have no business subjecting their kids to it on a daily basis. If the parents aren't happy together, the kids won't be happy. As a matter of fact, I was just reading an article the other day about how the best thing you can do for a family is put your spouse before your kids...so many parents, mothers especially, believe that they are supposed to make tons of sacrifices for their kids to the detriment of their marriage, and this is counterproductive.





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Looking at some of the other stories on that site makes me a bit sceptical.




I actually had a great childhood. I became a dancer to pay for an advanced degree because I felt that after a bachelor's I shouldn't be taking anymore money from my parents. Eight years later, I started escorting because I felt like I was finally okay enough risk-wise to take that step, and also I was trying to quickly correct a financial hole I'd been digging myself into over the past four years. In the past eight months, I've caught up quite a bit, though I still have several thousand dollars to pay off. At least I've put a sizeable dent in my debt (about 30%) and have been able to take a break from the physical toll dancing was putting on my joints.
I come from an unbroken home. Did we have problems? Certainly, but compared to everyone else's fucked up family, my family is like, only one step removed from the Cleaver clan from Leave it to Beaver.
However, I couldn't have done this without the love and support of an incredibly liberal boyfriend/partner. I would have thought it would have broken or damaged me, or somehow made me open to having a partner who could never love me in an open relationship where I escorted (and he's equally able to seek partners outside the relationship.) We are 100% honest with each other, even when I get nervous because he's completely 100% supportive. I don't think I've ever had unconditional love before, except from my dad. My mom, well, I love her, but she's like me-- judgemental but for the most part she comes around though I couldn't ever tell my parents about dancing, let alone escorting.
Anyway, my point is, I may have wanted to be a ballerina when I was a kid, but another part of me wanted to be "the woman in the red dress." I have no idea where I got that as a kid, but I used to fantasize about the dangerous femme fatale who owned her sexuality. I haven't 100% owned mine, I still have my moments of insecurities, BUT-- escorts are just like dancers. I may not have wanted to be a "hooker" growing up, but I certainly wanted to be a courtesan, a gun moll, a sugar baby (with a man I liked), or a victorian era lady of the night. I'd like to think that reflects in how I carry myself in this aspect of my career, although I'm probably very much the nice girl next door rather than any of these other things, but it's not for a lack of imaginationI'm just too darned nice to my clients!
Those who sought the job for the wrong reasons-- yeah, they might have had extenuating circumstances in their life that caused them to seek a possibly damaging career. I'm not saying that the easy money didn't attract me a lot to escorting (I mean, why the hell would someone do this otherwise?) But it offered me a lot of the same benefits of touring dancing, while trading different negatives.
I think I, like many dancers and escorts, sought out escorting for at least a few "right" reasons--
freedom, curiosity, money for specific things, and maybe just to challenge ourselves to see how okay we are to step outside the bounds of propriety (though I am VERY lowkey so it's not like I'm blaring my status when I'm walking into my appointments.)
The more I dance and escort, the more I see that men do approach sex way differently than the vast majority of women, and also, there's plenty of good marriages where the husband loves his wife, but either she isn't interested in sex hardly anymore (or at all) or the husband does want to do his duty as a husband and father, but still, in order to do that, yeah, sometimes you have to allow yourselves some imperfections in order to have sanity.
This isn't to say that many men aren't full of shit and will justify any of their behavior, but I do think that having paid sexual relations is actually healthier for the marriage-- less pressure on the wife to perform a duty she no longer really cares for (if that's the case,) and he's not involving a third party who could get attached and wreak havoc.
However, the guys who are chasing bareback outside their marriage-- those shitheads can get hit by a truck because their selfish asses can't justify that when the health of their wife comes into it AT ALL.
I agree, however it spurred a really interesting discussion.
Last edited by FiendishGyrator; 11-29-2011 at 08:19 PM.
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There is a lot I want to respond to here, but frankly it's so much that I think I'm just going to pick the parts that are most relevant or that bother me the most.
The only rational way you can disagree with well-documented research is to offer contradictory evidence of your own. And by evidence, I don't mean personal opinion. Otherwise all you're really saying is you believe what you want to believe.
The links you posted are also little more than the same type of rationalizations we've already seen in this thread. They're not evidence for or against anything. I've already said that divorce is sometimes inevitable. It's just that in this country it's often the first resort, not the last, and the children are given little to no consideration.
All these supposed "bad relationship examples" that supporters of divorce claim to be saving their kids from are proven to not only happen to children of broken homes, but also be accompanied by a host of other emotional trauma that often last a lifetime and affect more than just relationships.
Unless your spouse is abusing you or your children, don't tell me that you're teaching your kids the "healthy" way to handle a marriage is splitting, when study after study has shown that the life you're setting up for them creates long-term trust and intimacy issues and significantly increases their likelihood to fail in their own relationships. You know, exactly the things you pretend to be saving them from.
Let's clarify something here. When it's said that smoking causes cancer, they're not saying every single smoker is guaranteed to get it. They're simply saying that people who smoke tend to have poorer health and a much higher likelihood of getting cancer than those who don't. You can't refute that by saying "Well I know a guy who smokes all the time and he's fine!"I think that it is very deluded to say that all children benefit from being in a non-divorce family.
With all due respect, what you think you want does not nullify hard data and extensive research conducted by the scientific method.Even if my family didn't have the abuse that is present, I don't think that I would want to grow up around two people who are unhappy and who have the chance of being happy.
Oh, I wish he was the only one. He is only the most recent one. I've lost count of how many times I've heard the same exact line of BS from selfish tools of both gender.I also think that losers are losers and your coworker, who is obviously a giant tool and shouldn't have been married or had kids, isn't really a model for your "they always try to explain why divorce is better" point.
Sorry, this is wrong. The research is done to simply measure the effects of divorce. But what has been consistently found is that those effects are not only negative, but long-lasting and far-reaching across many aspects of a child's life.I think it should also be pointed out that a lot of research is done on divorce as "how does divorce negatively affect children" because that is way easier to measure than the positive affects.
Your opinion, not a fact. Unless abuse is involved, there is more than enough evidence that the broken home does significantly more damage than an intact one, even if the latter is "unhappy".
To make one last point which hopefully sums it up, the issue here is not that unbroken homes are perfect and that everyone who grows up in them will be totally well-adjusted. The point is that when the circumstances of children of divorce are compared to those from intact (not "perfect") homes, the former are much more likely to do worse in many areas of life, in both the short and long term. So if you're a parent and thinking about separation, this MUST enter your equation...unless of course you simply don't give a shit, which is sadly too often the case no matter how much it is denied.
^ Do you think physical abuse is the only type of abuse? If the parents have a toxic relationship and are constantly fighting, that is emotional abuse. My "opinion" is that every person I know whose parents were miserable together, and showed it, but never got a divorce, has turned out to have horribly skewed ideas about relationships in general and marriage in particular. They usually learned to side with one parent or the other (usually the same gender parent) and consequently learn to associate, for example, all females with their mother's toxic behavior, with their father's encouragement: i.e., all women are controlling, all women just want to marry men to get their money, all women are needy, all women are manipulative, all women are incapable of controlling their emotions, all women are crazy, etc. Same goes for the father. I mean, let's face it. Lots of parents in unhappy marriages drag the kids into it and pit them against each other in their little fights. They tell the kids nasty things about the other parent, like that the parent is cheating, or that he/she doesn't care about the kids, etc. It's called parental alienation syndrome. This not only damages that particular family's dynamic, but strongly influences future relationships. That child will have never been subjected to a normal, healthy relationship, and will engage in and tolerate behavior that SHOULD be considered unacceptable in any relationship, simply because that's what he was raised around.
Any people I know who came from a broken family may be a little cynical about relationships or marriage, but they are all MUCH more well-adjusted than the people who came from an "unbroken" home where the parents hated each other. Plus, from a personal perspective, every ex I've ever had who was emotionally, physically, or sexually abusive did NOT come from a divorced family, but from parents who had never gotten divorced but definitely should have. I think the concept that divorce, more than anything else, is horribly and irreversibly damaging to a child, and parents should stay together no matter how bad the relationship is, is a very dated one.
My assumption is that if you're questioning getting a divorce, it's for a serious reason, not just because of a whim or laziness. It's not something to take lightly. I'm sure some people do, but then, a lot of people take marriage lightly in general.




honestly, your opinion and the (non-peer edited, internet) evidence (that does not talk about social phenomenon or reasons why "statistics" are where they are) that you posted are not going to change my mind on this subject. I have no desire to have a discussion with someone who feels the same way. Obviously you think that staying together for the kids is right. And as one of those kids I am going to go ahead and say that I don't think the same way that you do.
I can't measure how my life would have been if my parents had gotten a divorce (nor can you or any other websites or studies) but I CAN say that the way that everyone in my household acts is heavily negatively impacted by the fact that my parents stayed together. That's all that anyone CAN say on the subject.
I also think that it is a very easy argument to say that people use divorce as a first option. I think that's just about as true as the argument that women use abortion as birth control. Not only is it false (true in VERY few cases - though we are led to believe that it is a way higher number than it really is due to anecdotes and media blowing these issues up) it also is harmful to people who are considering a divorce because they don't want society to see them as being one of those people who ruined their children's lives by getting a divorce.
yes to everything that you said. I think that people deserve to be happy, too, and having children should not be a deciding factor as to whether or not they are allowed to be happy.
and just for curiosity's sake, TarsTone can you tell us a bit about your family / upbringing? I'm not trying to bait you. I am just curious since you know all about ours.





Being cheated on is a damn good reason to get a divorce. The cheater should've thought about that before it was done. Why should a spouse tolerate being disrespected?? It's best to divorce and not bring up a child in a negative household. Happy seperated parents can raise happy healthy children.
Oh, and about the guy in the story. That's karma for him, for being a cheating bastard to his wife. Mua ha ha.



No I don't. I specifically mentioned emotional abuse in my earlier post. Of course the people who try to justify the disturbing divorce rate in this country often use a very broad definition of abuse to suit their position.
As I already said, the point is not that an intact family guarantees a completely well-adjusted upbringing. What evidence (not somebody's opinion) shows is that children are damaged more by divorce even when the original family was not a particularly happy one. There is plenty of research on this and you can look it up for yourself.My "opinion" is that every person I know whose parents were miserable together, and showed it, but never got a divorce, has turned out to have horribly skewed ideas about relationships in general and marriage in particular.
All these happen to children of divorce too, PLUS they tend to have the added baggage of blaming one parent for the break-up of the family which only worsens their view of that parent's gender.They usually learned to side with one parent or the other (usually the same gender parent) and consequently learn to associate, for example, all females with their mother's toxic behavior, with their father's encouragement:....
The bottom line is that pretty much all the negative effects of an unhappy home are present in the children of divorce, plus a whole range of other issues.
*I* don't say this, data does.
My experience has been the exact opposite. I'm in my mid-thirties now, and looking back at high school, college, grad school and work, I've dealt with all kinds of people from happy homes, unhappy homes, and broken homes. With very few exceptions, the last group were the most emotionally troubled, distrustful and maladjusted. They were the ones most likely to abuse their SO or stay in an abusive relationship. They were also the ones who seemed to have the most problems with authority which affected both their education and employment.Any people I know who came from a broken family may be a little cynical about relationships or marriage, but they are all MUCH more well-adjusted than the people who came from an "unbroken" home where the parents hated each other.
In the end, however, anecdotal accounts by you or me don't mean nearly as much as documented research conducted over decades across many cultures.
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