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Thread: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

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    Default US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    Like natural gas, here's another 'commodity' that cannot be traded on the world market.



    (snip)NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Home prices fell to their lowest point in more than a decade in January, which helped to lift the pace of home sales, according to a report from an industry trade group.

    The National Association of Realtors reported that the median home price in January fell 2% from December to $154,700. That's the lowest price reading since November 2001, before the run-up in home prices that became known as the housing bubble.(snip)

    (snip)Serving as a drag on existing home prices is a large inventory of homes in foreclosure. Distressed home sales, which includes homes in foreclosure and so-called short sales in which the home is sold for less than what is owed on the mortgage, made up 35% of sales in January.

    "Prices will continue to fall through the first half of 2012 due to the high share of distressed sales," said Stuart Hoffman, chief economist with PNC Financial. "The recent agreement between the big mortgage servicers, state attorneys general and the Obama administration will also result in more homes going to foreclosure over the next few months, adding to downward pressure on prices."

    But the pace of sales rose to the highest level since May of 2010, helped by the low prices and rock-bottom mortgage rates. The seasonally-adjusted annual sales pace of 4.57 million homes was up slightly from the revised 4.38 million in December. The last time homes sold at that pace, buyers were rushing to qualify for an $8,000 homebuyer's tax credit that was about to expire. The latest reading was roughly in line with the expectations of economists surveyed by Briefing.com."(snip)

    from


    The take-away, of course is that, after the US gov't spent billions of dollars worth of taxpayer's money to fund both the $8,000 homebuyer tax credit, as well as funding de-facto taxpayer subsidized low mortgage interest rates for higher risk homebuyers via Freddie and Fannie ( i.e. taxpayers will have to make good Fannie and Freddie losses on foreclosure liquidations and short sales ), the median price of US housing still continues to drop.

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    ^^^^On a positive note:

    "Sales of previously occupied homes are at their highest level since May 2010. More first-time buyers are making purchases. And the supply of homes fell last month to its lowest point in nearly seven years, which could push home prices higher."
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/rising...173654759.html

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    and yet some people actually believe inflation is a problem.

    Homes can be traded on the world market. People from other countries can buy houses in the US. In Florida, a lot of luxury homes are being bought by foreigners.

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    ^^^ true in that special case ... the economy for the 'one percenters' is doing very well. Besides luxury housing, the same conclusion is corroborated by the relative profitability of Tiffany, Porsche, and a host of other companies which cater to the 'one percenters'. But outside of the 'one percent' circle and luxury properties, you won't find many ( legal ) foreign buyers of median / low priced US housing.

    And indeed there are NO price inflation problem where non-globally traded commodities are concerned ! Different story regarding price inflation for commodities that ARE globally traded though ( ex food, oil, metals, etc ).

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    and yet some people actually believe inflation is a problem.

    Homes can be traded on the world market. People from other countries can buy houses in the US. In Florida, a lot of luxury homes are being bought by foreigners.
    If it were just supply and demand then since PRICES have fallen , sales ought to be way up. Sales are up, especially with luxury homes. I recently sold two condos I bought dirt cheap in North Miami. Both to Brazilians. For a LOT more than I paid.

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    here's another chart that really tells the whole story ...





    This certainly provides some needed perspective regarding housing activity being 'up' recently !

    .

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    ^^^^Up is up, isn't that better than the graph continuing on down below 5,000 or being a flat-line where it bottomed out?.

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    ^^^ yes if it happened 'by itself', but as the maker of the graph commented, how many billions of US taxpayer dollars have been expended to stop a further decline ? Will a decline immediately resume if the US gov't stops spending future billions to continue to 'subsidize' the housing market ?

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ yes if it happened 'by itself', but as the maker of the graph commented, how many billions of US taxpayer dollars have been expended to stop a further decline ? Will a decline immediately resume if the US gov't stops spending future billions to continue to 'subsidize' the housing market ?
    Putting US taxpayer money to assist in creating housing purchases and starts is a great investment for the US economy. Almost all of those people who are buying or building homes will also be purchasing a multitude of products and services for those homes; furniture, electronics, decorations, appliances etc. on the service end they will likely be hiring plumbers, painters, exterminators and repair people. They will also likely be signing up for utility services like cable, internet, water, electric and for some phone. People that were either previously renting or living with friends or relatives will also start paying local and sometimes state property tax. All of this money will help to further stimulate the economy and will provide funds for the owners and employees of those companies to possibly buy or upgrade new homes of their own and then the entire equation gets repeated. Couple this with stimulation to create good high paying jobs in tech and emerging energy companies and you've got a really good shot at getting the country on a course for sustainable growth that will eventually not need stimulus spending.

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    Quote Originally Posted by jimboe7373 View Post
    Putting US taxpayer money to assist in creating housing purchases and starts is a great investment for the US economy. Almost all of those people who are buying or building homes will also be purchasing a multitude of products and services for those homes; furniture, electronics, decorations, appliances etc. on the service end they will likely be hiring plumbers, painters, exterminators and repair people. They will also likely be signing up for utility services like cable, internet, water, electric and for some phone. People that were either previously renting or living with friends or relatives will also start paying local and sometimes state property tax. All of this money will help to further stimulate the economy and will provide funds for the owners and employees of those companies to possibly buy or upgrade new homes of their own and then the entire equation gets repeated. Couple this with stimulation to create good high paying jobs in tech and emerging energy companies and you've got a really good shot at getting the country on a course for sustainable growth that will eventually not need stimulus spending.
    We have been, and will continue to come up with all kinds of govt assistance, where economic growth is concerned..... Nobody wants the real world..... I think there will come a time when people will start to forget there was ever a time when we weren't getting somekind of...... Homebuyer Credit.....Green Appliance Credit..... Cash For Clunkers..... Fica Holiday....... I believe I will live to see a 50 trillion dollar national debt.

    But you can keep waiting for stimulation to create good high paying jobs in tech and emerging energy companies..... Gee that's the ticket.
    The country has been looted.

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    Putting US taxpayer money to assist in creating housing purchases and starts is a great investment for the US economy. Almost all of those people who are buying or building homes will also be purchasing a multitude of products and services for those homes; furniture, electronics, decorations, appliances etc. on the service end they will likely be hiring plumbers, painters, exterminators and repair people. They will also likely be signing up for utility services like cable, internet, water, electric and for some phone. People that were either previously renting or living with friends or relatives will also start paying local and sometimes state property tax. All of this money will help to further stimulate the economy and will provide funds for the owners and employees of those companies
    Arguably, this is a classic case of economist Frederick Bastiat's 'the seen versus the unseen' ... see

    In essence, Bastiat's point as applied this thread is that all that you say in regard to the gov't spending taxpayer money to subsidize housing is arguably true in theory. However, what you disregard entirely is what other economic developments did not happen, or will not happen, or will worsen, as a result of the additional taxation of US businesses and individuals, as a result of increased US gov't debt levels, as the result of increased US FED dollar money printing out of 'thin air' etc. necessary to fund these housing subsidies.

    As has already been pointed out by both the creator of the chart I posted and by MikeF, the 'bang for the buck' results of the US taxpayer money already spent on housing subsidies so far has been questionable at best. Well, with the exception of the big wall st. banks who were able to avoid booking losses on mortgage backed securities as the result of all of that US taxpayer money. And also with the exception of 'deadbeat' subsidized home buyers who are able to live in their unaffordable properties without making mortgage payments for several YEARS as a result of HAMP, HARP, 'FraudClosure', etc.

    What is NOT in question, but which is impossible to prove via direct 'cause and effect', is that the higher business and individual tax rates necessary to fund housing subsidies has reduced overall economic growth, overall job creation, overall consumer spending etc. The piling up of additional US gov't debt, or more specifically the increasing US taxpayer burden of servicing the principal and interest payments due on that additional US gov't debt, creates pressure for increasing tax rates even further and further reduces overall consumer spending. And the FED money printing serves to increase price levels of food, gasoline, home heating fuel, raw materials used in housing construction and appliance manufacture etc. Thus, ironically, at this particular point in the housing subsidy 'circle', the negative secondary effects of the housing subsidies already put in place is to make home ownership even less affordable - despite the fact that existing home prices have fallen.

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    ^^^What you completely fail to understand is that spending and creating debt to stimulate the economy doesn't have to be and is not intended to be a permanent action. It is an emergency action to A) keep the economy from complete collapse (which it was close to a few years ago) and B) To jump-start economic activity, create hiring and maybe even assist new industries to be created- once these items have been accomplished and the economy is on sounder footing, then you can work at lessening spending and lowering the debt. To make cuts and lower spending in a weak economy is economic suicide and will lead to less jobs and a shrinking economy- which then leads to even less jobs and and even more shrinking economy- on and on.

    I would say that the current situation answers pretty easily your query over whether the increasing debt has hurt or helped the overall economy, with the DOW closing in on 13,000 and hiring and home purchases rising, it would seem pretty obvious that in the short term there wasn't too much harm done. Your comments about home ownership being less affordable don't seem to hold much weight either as we are currently having a large increase in home purchases:

    "Existing-home sales rose in January, marking three gains in the past four months, while inventories continued to improve, according to the National Association of Realtors®."

    "Total housing inventory at the end of January fell 0.4 percent to 2.31 million existing homes available for sale, which represents a 6.1-month supply2 at the current sales pace, down from a 6.4-month supply in December."

    “Foreclosure sales are moving swiftly with ready home buyers and investors competing in nearly all markets."

    Total unsold listed inventory has trended down from a record 4.04 million in July 2007, and is 20.6 percent below a year ago."

    http://www.realtor.org/press_room/ne...012/02/ehs_jan

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    Agreed on the arguable effectiveness of the gov't creating debt to provide stimulus spending in the ( distant ) past. Not necessarily accepting the fact that, in today's global economy, Keynesian theory still holds true. The main difference today is that the additional debt burden incurred in the name of taxpayers to perform stimulus spending in one country doesn't necessarily improve the economy of that same country. This is becoming painfully obvious where US green energy is concerned. But it at least partially true where US housing is concerned as well, since many construction materials, appliances, household furnishings etc. are now imported as well.

    And the fact remains regarding the 'seen versus the unseen'. Extracting additional tax dollars from the US private sector economy to fund stimulus spending BY DEFINITION reduces spending by taxpayers on other items and activities. Thus the gov'ts decision to 'stimulate' particular industries essentially benefits a limited number of participants, while being detrimental to other industries and individuals who must effectively divert additional resources to pay for this 'stimulus'. Some of the talking heads refer to this point as 'the gov't picking winners and losers'. As stated earlier, where housing 'subsidies' were concerned, they primarily benefit the big bank mortgage bond holders, the real estate brokers, and the low income homeowners. And, arguably, the primary 'losers' have been retirees on fixed incomes, middle class taxpayers who chose not to incure huge amounts of mortgage debt, etc.

    As to the true effects of housing 'stimulus' spending, I again refer back to the chart I originally posted. 4 months worth of improvements is a good thing when viewed in a vacuum, but when one considers the huge amount of taxpayer money spent for 'levitation' purposes, and when one considers how far below historical norms the current 'improved' levels still are, one must question the actual 'bang for the buck' that those billions in additional gov't debt / future taxpayer obligations actually has been.

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    ^^^OK, real simple- I can show you positive results of the stimulus- DOW inches away from 13,000, over 1 million new jobs added, renewed consumer and business confidence in the economy, GM the largest car manufacturer, banks on secure footing, big business holding onto over $2Trillion that they CHOOSE not to spend, housing sales way up, inventory going down (which will likely raise prices)- all those stats are not only way up from where they were but are also trending in a positive direction.

    2 questions for you:

    1) Can you name some quantifiable negative results that we are experiencing right now from the stimulus that outweigh the positive factors listed above?- not an ideological answer or a gloom and doom forecast of what "is" or "may" happen down the line- but something right now.

    2) Would you prefer that there was no stimulus and the banks closed their doors, that a majority of big business went bankrupt (followed by a majority of small businesses), that housing totally collapsed, that instead of adding almost 2 million private sector jobs we lost 2, 4 or 6 million more?.

    I like most people am opposed to spending money you don't currently have, but there are times in an emergency it is warranted. What we recently had was an emergency, thankfully we seem to be trending out of it. Once we are on sounder footing we can start to cut spending and pay down the debt we incurred. Banks and businesses shutting their doors and millions of people losing their jobs are short-term problems that arise from the kind of economy we recently experienced. The problems of large debt are more long-term till negative consequences are felt. If someone gets rushed to an emergency room and they are bleeding from a wound and have a sprained finger, do they treat the finger first and then look at the gaping wound? or do they fix the most the thing most likely to cause death first and then fix the finger?. Besides this, if you want to fix the debt problem, it is exponentially easier to do from a position of relative ecomomic stability and even strength than it is to do it during a time of economic uncertainty and weakness, as the very thing you will be trying to fix will be undermined by the actions you are taking to fix it ie. cutting spending and shrinking the ecomomy and having more job losses.
    Last edited by jimboe7373; 02-27-2012 at 09:55 AM.

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    1. Well the country is now 16 trillion in debt.

    2. The President & Vice President, as well as then Secretary of Labor said unemployment would not rise about 8.5%

    3. Addressing the bank bailout here and not the stimulas..... The lessond learned.... and believe me, it has been learned..... Crime pays.

    4. The path down would have been faster and harder no doubt..... But without all this interference, you get a real recovery...... This is not organic..... It's a govt/Federal Reserve recovery.

    5. As to the medical analogy..... They always rip the band aid off fast..... Not slowly.


    Here is a portion of a Q and A between the head of the CBO and Senator Sessions

    ELMENDORF: What we said was, [the stimulus bill] would be a big boost in the level of GDP in the first 3 or 4 years,*** and then, relative to what would have happened to GDP without that law… the level of GDP would be a little lower at the end. That is, a net negative effect on the growth of GDP over 10 years.

    SESSIONS: And in the next 10 years, since you’re carrying that debt and paying interest on it and the stimulus value is long since gone, it would be a continual negative of some effect?

    ELMENDORF: Yes, it would represent a drag on the level of GDP beyond that, if no other actions were taken.
    The country has been looted.

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    Quote Originally Posted by mikef View Post
    1. Well the country is now 16 trillion in debt.
    As I mentioned, what exact damage does that do at this very moment?. As of now it's just a number- if we ignore and don't pay it down or pay it off down the line it could be a huge problem. In the condition we were in over the last several years it was not a priority.

    2. The President & Vice President, as well as then Secretary of Labor said unemployment would not rise about 8.5%
    It's impossible to predict anything of that size or scope especially with all the variables involved. They made the best estimate they could, they were wrong, nobody can predict that kind of stuff accurately, you make your best estimate, make your plan and then adjust as circumstances make themselves known.

    3. Addressing the bank bailout here and not the stimulas..... The lessond learned.... and believe me, it has been learned..... Crime pays.
    No, the administration did learn- with the stimulus they put all kinds of conditions attached to the loans so that the banks couldn't wait to pay it back.

    4. The path down would have been faster and harder no doubt..... But without all this interference, you get a real recovery...... This is not organic..... It's a govt/Federal Reserve recovery.
    The path down could have likely been a catastrophic crash that resulted in mass rioting and possibly even the end of the US or capitalism as we know it, similar to what happened to the USSR, only no one would have been there to bail us out as we did for them to keep a complete degradation of society from occurring.

    5. As to the medical analogy..... They always rip the band aid off fast..... Not slowly.
    You rip a band aid off a cut, when your having a heart attack and a stroke at the same time, a band aid isn't going to be too effective or relevant.
    Last edited by jimboe7373; 02-27-2012 at 06:56 PM.

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    I wait with baited breath for the day we "pay it off down the line"

    And I totally disagree about the "mass rioting and possibly even the end of the US or capitalism as we know it" theory we were told.

    You see the glass as half full..... I see the glass half full of poison.... Lol
    The country has been looted.

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    And the fact remains regarding the 'seen versus the unseen'. Extracting additional tax dollars from the US private sector economy to fund stimulus spending BY DEFINITION reduces spending by taxpayers on other items and activities.
    No additional tax dollars were extracted from the private sector. There were no tax increases to pay for the stimulus. There were actually tax cuts, as part of the stimulus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    As to the true effects of housing 'stimulus' spending, I again refer back to the chart I originally posted. 4 months worth of improvements is a good thing when viewed in a vacuum, but when one considers the huge amount of taxpayer money spent for 'levitation' purposes, and when one considers how far below historical norms the current 'improved' levels still are, one must question the actual 'bang for the buck' that those billions in additional gov't debt / future taxpayer obligations actually has been.
    If the economy kept getting worse, it is possible the government would have lost more revenue as a result of the poor economy than they would have spent on the stimulus. The big gains in the stock market over the past three years will probably over time, bring in a significant amount of revenue for the government from the capital gains tax.

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    Quote Originally Posted by mikef View Post
    1. Well the country is now 16 trillion in debt.
    Less than $1 trillion of that is from the stimulus.

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    If it were just supply and demand then since PRICES have fallen , sales ought to be way up. Sales are up, especially with luxury homes. I recently sold two condos I bought dirt cheap in North Miami. Both to Brazilians. For a LOT more than I paid.
    Prices have fallen as a result of the decrease in demand for houses.
    Last edited by eagle2; 02-27-2012 at 10:08 PM.

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    Quote Originally Posted by mikef View Post
    I wait with baited breath for the day we "pay it off down the line"
    It is totally possible government will seek to balance the budget and pay down the debt- did they not do just that in the 90's?

    And I totally disagree about the "mass rioting and possibly even the end of the US or capitalism as we know it" theory we were told.
    What exactly do think happens when there is a run on the banks and almost all the banks shut their doors and refuse to release the public's money?. How much reserve cash do you think the average American has on them liquid? How hard do you think it is for a panic and run on the food stores to happen when there is no more money available from banks or ATM's?, do you think credit card companies are going to allow people to keep charging when the banks are closed and people can't get to their money. Do you have any idea how long food supplies in the supermarket last when their is on a run on them? Do you think the supermarkets are going to ship more food when they're not sure if they are going to get paid?, even if they did make the shipment, do you think those delivery trucks are not going to get hijacked on the way? We have millions of people living in tiny clusters with little access to food and water, in a situation like that society and order can fall apart very quickly- picture New Orleans on a national scale. It's real easy to sit here in the relative calmness of 2012 and forget the uncertainty and fear of what was going on in 2008-2009, here are some stories to refresh your memory:

    THURSDAY, FEB 26, 2009 6:36 AM EASTERN STANDARD TIME
    We’re on the brink of disaster
    Violent protests and riots are breaking out everywhere as economies collapse and governments fail. War is bound to follow.
    http://www.salon.com/2009/02/26/klare/

    Wachovia Corp. lost $5 billion in deposits on Friday Sept. 26 in a “silent run” on the Charlotte bank, leading regulators to tell Wachovia that it would be shut down within days if it were not acquired, according to court filings made by Citigroup today.
    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2008/10/1...5-billion.html

    Pentagon resources and U.S. troops may be used if needed to quell protests and bank runs during an economic crisis, the U.S. Army War College’s Strategic Institute reported.
    POLICE PREPARE FOR CIVIL UNREST AS IMF WARNS OF ECONOMIC RIOTS
    Paulson discussed worst-case scenario at bailout meeting – declare martial law
    Published: 12/18/2008 at 7:00 PM

    “Widespread civil violence inside the United States would force the defense establishment to reorient priorities in extremis to defend basic domestic order and human security,”http://www.wnd.com/2008/12/83977/

    The fall of icons of American capitalism such as 158-year-old Lehman Brothers and 94-year-old Merrill Lynch can only lead to the further discrediting of the “free market” ideology of the US ruling elite, as well as its political and economic system.http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/se...lehm-s16.shtml

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    The big gains in the stock market over the past three years will probably over time, bring in a significant amount of revenue for the government from the capital gains tax.
    Much of the 'big gains' you refer to have been based on price increases for stocks being the direct result of a devalued US dollar. This is akin to price increases for commodities being the direct result of a devalued US dollar. And the point doesn't sit as well when applied to a slightly different target i.e. $5.00 a gallon gasoline is indeed generating significant amounts of additional tax revenue for federal and state gov'ts. US dollar devaluation is arguably the direct byproduct of FED zero interest rate policy which has been an integral part of the housing bailout.


    Prices have fallen as a result of the decrease in demand for houses.
    Arguably this is a 'half truth'. Demand for US housing remains strong. The problem is that a large chunk of willing buyers simply don't have the income generation ability to AFFORD the purchase of a house under mortgage terms that now involve a 'reasonable' risk evaluation and a 'reasonable' down payment.

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Much of the 'big gains' you refer to have been based on price increases for stocks being the direct result of a devalued US dollar. This is akin to price increases for commodities being the direct result of a devalued US dollar. And the point doesn't sit as well when applied to a slightly different target i.e. $5.00 a gallon gasoline is indeed generating significant amounts of additional tax revenue for federal and state gov'ts. US dollar devaluation is arguably the direct byproduct of FED zero interest rate policy which has been an integral part of the housing bailout.
    I don't believe the devaluation of the dollar has been anywhere near enough to account for the gains that we've experienced for the last year and a half or so. In addition the devaluation of dollar has been a fairly consistent phenomenon while the decline and rebound of the DOW and other markets have been confined to very definite timing phases, so clearly other factors are at work.

    Arguably this is a 'half truth'. Demand for US housing remains strong. The problem is that a large chunk of willing buyers simply don't have the income generation ability to AFFORD the purchase of a house under mortgage terms that now involve a 'reasonable' risk evaluation and a 'reasonable' down payment.
    No half truth about it, demand is dictated by a willingness and ability to buy. Restricting people who can't afford the mortgage from buying is just common sense and the failure of applying that common sense had a lot to do with our previous economic calamity.

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Much of the 'big gains' you refer to have been based on price increases for stocks being the direct result of a devalued US dollar. This is akin to price increases for commodities being the direct result of a devalued US dollar. And the point doesn't sit as well when applied to a slightly different target i.e. $5.00 a gallon gasoline is indeed generating significant amounts of additional tax revenue for federal and state gov'ts. US dollar devaluation is arguably the direct byproduct of FED zero interest rate policy which has been an integral part of the housing bailout.
    You're making stuff up again. You simply are not able to bring yourself to say anything positive about the economy. The US dollar lost value in the 1970's and the stock market did very poorly. How do you explain this?

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    Default Re: US Home Prices Hit Lowest Level in more than 10 Years

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    You're making stuff up again. You simply are not able to bring yourself to say anything positive about the economy. The US dollar lost value in the 1970's and the stock market did very poorly. How do you explain this?
    We've explained that numerous times. Thanks to a weak dollar investment money went into real estate, commodities ( remember gold prices in the late 70's and early 80's ? ) various bonds and overseas.

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