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Thread: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

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    Default Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    A survey of bankruptcy attorneys reulted in a finding that bankruptcy as a result of student loan debt is up by as much as 50 % according to MSN.

    Ironically, most of the debtors cannot get their student debt discharged unless they can show "undue hardship". This is a ticking time bomb akin to the housing debt crisis.

    The average college grad owes over $25,000 and most of those unemployed or underemployed after graduation have no way to pay it back.

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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    And I still can't believe my brother was insisting that I should enroll in college to do a masters!





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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    Im currently going through this. I didnt file for bankruptcy but I did defer my payments. So now I have to set up a new payment plan and after paying for 9 consecutive months the deferrment will be wiped from my credit report. The ironic part is that my degree is not my bread and butter. I guess you can say I could apply what I learned to this buisness. But I dont think I had to go to school to do that.

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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    A survey of bankruptcy attorneys reulted in a finding that bankruptcy as a result of student loan debt is up by as much as 50 % according to MSN.

    Ironically, most of the debtors cannot get their student debt discharged unless they can show "undue hardship". This is a ticking time bomb akin to the housing debt crisis.

    The average college grad owes over $25,000 and most of those unemployed or underemployed after graduation have no way to pay it back.
    On a positive note:

    "NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- American employers substantially stepped up their hiring in January, bringing the unemployment rate down for the fifth month in a row.
    Employers added 243,000 jobs in January, the Labor Department reported Friday, marking a pick-up in hiring from December, when the economy added 203,000 jobs.
    Meanwhile, the unemployment rate fell to 8.3%. That is the lowest since February 2009."

    http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/03/news...ment/index.htm

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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    A survey of bankruptcy attorneys reulted in a finding that bankruptcy as a result of student loan debt is up by as much as 50 % according to MSN.

    Ironically, most of the debtors cannot get their student debt discharged unless they can show "undue hardship". This is a ticking time bomb akin to the housing debt crisis.

    The average college grad owes over $25,000 and most of those unemployed or underemployed after graduation have no way to pay it back.
    If by we you are referring to you and Melonie, you've told "us" hundreds of things- all of it extremely negative and almost all of it incorrect. Kudos though for calling this one right, I don't think anyone saw this one coming lol.

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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    Quote Originally Posted by jimboe7373 View Post
    On a positive note:

    "NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- American employers substantially stepped up their hiring in January, bringing the unemployment rate down for the fifth month in a row.
    Employers added 243,000 jobs in January, the Labor Department reported Friday, marking a pick-up in hiring from December, when the economy added 203,000 jobs.
    Meanwhile, the unemployment rate fell to 8.3%. That is the lowest since February 2009."
    But how many are fulltime with benefits? that makes a difference. Let's not forget that many of these new jobs are going to visa holders. I have seen this happen so until more people get jobs I am reluctant to believe a lot.

    I will say this though and that is college is often a waste of time and money. If I could do it again I would have danced fulltime longer than part time and attending college.

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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    But how many are fulltime with benefits? that makes a difference. Let's not forget that many of these new jobs are going to visa holders
    For my outlook personally at this time, I don't care how many jobs are full time or have benefits, although I suspect the majority are full time. Right now, I am just happy that things have turned around sufficiently that overall we are adding a lot more jobs than we are losing. Every job added means further stimulation for the economy.

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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    But if the jobs being added are part time and no benefits then it's really not a good thing.

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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    But if the jobs being added are part time and no benefits then it's really not a good thing.
    When you were not too long ago losing 400,000 jobs per month, any job added is a good thing. Besides that, the jobs that have been being added recently are across a very wide spectrum and many well-paying jobs with benefits are part of the mix.

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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    from See charts at the link

    (snip)We have a "let's pretend" economy: let's pretend the unemployment rate actually reflects the number of people with full-time jobs and the number of people seeking jobs, let's pretend the Federal government borrowing 10% of the GDP every year is sustainable without any consequences, let's pretend the stock market actually reflects the economy rather than Federal Reserve monetary intervention, and so on.

    We also have a "let's pretend" education/student-loan game running: let's pretend college is "worth" the investment, and let's pretend student loans are about education. There are three dirty little secrets buried under the education/student-loan complex's high-gloss sheen:

    1. Student loans have little to do with education and everything to do with creating a new profit center for subprime-type lenders guaranteed by the Savior State.

    2. A college diploma's value in the real world of getting a job and earning a good salary in a post-financialization economy has been grossly oversold.

    3. Many people are taking out student loans just to live; the loans are essentially a form of "State funding" a.k.a. welfare that must be paid back.

    We've got a lot of charts that reflect reality rather than hype, so let's get started. Despite all the bleating rationalizations issued by the Education Complex, higher education costs have outstripped the rest of the economy's cost structure. Funny how nobody ever asks if there is any real competitive pressure in the Education Complex; there isn't, and why should there be when students can borrow $30,000 a year? (snip)

    (snip)Here's the reality. Large global firms, i.e. corporations, have been the major source of job creation in recent years. But due to a number of thorny issues such as skyrocketing costs of sickcare insurance in the U.S. and the need to develop resources within overseas markets, global companies are hiring overseas, not in the U.S., except for those with high-level experience in specific computer-software skillsets.

    Even having a computer science degree isn't enough any more; employers want years of experience with a suite of software tools and they would rather poach an experienced coder from a competitor than go through the trouble of training a FOOS (fresh out of school) CS major.

    The truly pathetic part of the student loan scam is that is often the only State funding available to marginalized populations. Here is an on-the-ground report from Dr. M.H., who serves the woefully under-served segment of the populace with severe mental health and poverty issues:

    An amazingly large portion of my patients ( drug and alcohol addicted and the psychiatrically ill) are fleeing into student loans and grants to escape homelessness.

    I even have previously middle-class patients ( many with previously missed "soft" bipolar illness which has got them into deep trouble due to depression and impulsiveness), some in their sixties, who are taking this route for want of any plausible alternative.

    Student loans are a $1 trillion "business." Here is a "clock" of student debt.

    $1 trillion is equivalent to the external (national) debt of Canada. (List of countries by external debt.) So let's pretend that loading up our students and future taxpayers with a debt load equivalent to that of an entire nation is an excellent strategy for furthering future growth and education.

    What that $1 trillion does further is profits and debt serfdom (snip)


    Author Charles Hughes Smith's point of course is that gov't guaranteed student loans are now being used as a de-facto supplementary social welfare benefit. The 'jury is still out' of course on the eventual real world consequences of never paying this student loan money back. Already under discussion are 'sunset' rules that would forgive unpaid student loan debt after making 10 or 20 years of 'token' repayments.


    I would also point out that the question of recently created jobs being well paying with benefits versus minimum wage versus part time is actually secondary to a more important question. And that question is whether the 'birth death model' and the 'seasonal adjustments' utilized by the BLS, as well as the highly 'flexible' definition of 'no longer in the work force' which are all used to calculate their official unemployment number has obscured the fact that zero net real world US jobs were actually created ! The ADP employer survey, US state tax receipts, ECRI and other indicators with arguably far stronger ties to the real world simply don't support BLS claims of significant recovery in US jobs creation. But feel free to keep consuming that Kool-Aid !
    Last edited by Melonie; 03-08-2012 at 05:16 AM.

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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    ^^^^Not disputing the data or downside of the student loan problem. Just reacting to the OP seeking out a negative story in a time with many positive stories that could be posted and commented on as well as the arrogant and immature way in which the title of the thread was written.


    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    I would also point out that the question of recently created jobs being well paying with benefits versus minimum wage versus part time is actually secondary to a more important question. And that question is whether the 'birth death model' and the 'seasonal adjustments' utilized by the BLS, as well as the highly 'flexible' definition of 'no longer in the work force' which are all used to calculate their official unemployment number has obscured the fact that zero net real world US jobs were actually created ! The ADP employer survey, US state tax receipts, ECRI and other indicators with arguably far stronger ties to the real world simply don't support BLS claims of significant recovery in US jobs creation. But feel free to keep consuming that Kool-Aid !
    Maybe my reasoning is a little too simple here, but is not any new job created- whether it's a "net real world" job or not still not one less person not working than you had before?. In other words, if we accept the math and logic in your post (I don't say that I do accept it) would the addition of 240,000 jobs not be a good thing no matter what?. Even if there was no "net gain" and you were at 0 for net gain- without those new 240,000 jobs, you would have been -240,000, correct?. Is it not also exponentially better to add 240,000 jobs as opposed to losing a number of that amount?. Lastly, the dynamic that is occurring is that a lot of private industry jobs are being added and a pretty fair amount of government and public jobs are being lost- isn't that something that you conservatives like?

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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    ^^^ again, it depends if this 'trading' of jobs lost versus jobs gained is 'neutral' or not. If the 'trading' involves the loss of a $75k per year manufacturing job, which involves the payment of significant amounts of net income tax revenue and little or nothing in the way of gov't social welfare benefit consumption ... versus the gain of a $40k per year 'replacement' job, which involves no net income tax being paid plus some consumption of social welfare benefits ... that's a 'losing' equation.

    Of course this sort of statistic is extremely difficult to track down ... but state income tax revenue receipts ( which are declining ) do indicate a direction !
    Last edited by Melonie; 03-08-2012 at 08:20 AM.

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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ again, it depends if this 'trading' of jobs lost versus jobs gained is 'neutral' or not. If the 'trading' involves the loss of a $75k per year manufacturing job, which involves the payment of significant amounts of net income tax revenue and little or nothing in the way of gov't social welfare benefit consumption ... versus the gain of a $40k per year 'replacement' job, which involves no net income tax being paid plus some consumption of social welfare benefits ... that's a 'losing' equation.

    Of course this sort of statistic is extremely difficult to track down ... but state income tax revenue receipts ( which are declining ) do indicate a direction !
    I agree it could often be very complicated to track down statistics to determine if progress is actually being made or lost, however coming out of the financial period we were recently in where we were losing ALL jobs at an extremely high rate, having net losses turn into net gains is a good accomplishment and something to positive about. In addition, of the many jobs being offered now, many are better paying areas. Companies are currently hiring across a large spectrum, from low-end retail all the way to upper-management and engineer type positions, its not like years ago when it was only Starbucks type jobs that were available.

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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    having net losses turn into net gains is a good accomplishment and something to positive about
    Again we'll have to agree to disagree. I simply do not consider a replacement job that 'costs' actual taxpayers money to subsidize the job holder as a net 'positive'.

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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    I don't either. Going from a fulltime job with benefits to a part time no benefits affects all of us because many times that person now relies on welfare assistance.

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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    Quote Originally Posted by jimboe7373 View Post
    ^^^^Not disputing the data or downside of the student loan problem. Just reacting to the OP seeking out a negative story in a time with many positive stories that could be posted and commented on as well as the arrogant and immature way in which the title of the thread was written.


    Maybe my reasoning is a little too simple here, but is not any new job created- whether it's a "net real world" job or not still not one less person not working than you had before?. In other words, if we accept the math and logic in your post (I don't say that I do accept it) would the addition of 240,000 jobs not be a good thing no matter what?. Even if there was no "net gain" and you were at 0 for net gain- without those new 240,000 jobs, you would have been -240,000, correct?. Is it not also exponentially better to add 240,000 jobs as opposed to losing a number of that amount?. Lastly, the dynamic that is occurring is that a lot of private industry jobs are being added and a pretty fair amount of government and public jobs are being lost- isn't that something that you conservatives like?
    Just a cotton picking minute. I was going to let go your crashing my thread with more "happy talk" stats but this latest is a little too much. I titled this as a "we told you so " because we DID. Melonie especially has been posting about the student debt bubble for YEARS ! I noted just ONE story out of many just scratching the surface of the issue.

    "Many positve stories " ? Really ? Name one. Melonie and I have continually pointed out the REAL unemployment rate and that the new jobs that are really being created are still way below the number we need just to keep pace with population growth.

    GM and Chrysler ? The jury is still out although I'll admit it looks better than it did few months ago.

    The debt ? Public and private ?

    State and city finances ?

    The deficit ?

    Energy prices ?

    Food prices ?

    The PPI ?

    M1 , M2, M3 , monetary velocity ?

    Greece ?

    Chinese growth prospects ?

    Wall St. bonuses ?

    Just WHERE am I supposed to be looking for all this "good news" ?

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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    I don't either. Going from a fulltime job with benefits to a part time no benefits affects all of us because many times that person now relies on welfare assistance.
    You completely miss my point- I'm not talking about a person going from a full-time job to a part-time job, I'm talking about a person going from a no-time job to either a full-time or part-time job. As already stated, a large number of the new jobs currently being created are full-time and with benefits.


    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Again we'll have to agree to disagree. I simply do not consider a replacement job that 'costs' actual taxpayers money to subsidize the job holder as a net 'positive'.
    Most of the new jobs being created are due to an expanding economy and are not "replacement" jobs. Either way, would you prefer to have people working and have a small part of their pay come from a subsidy or unemployed and have ALL of their money come from tax-payers?.

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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Just a cotton picking minute. I was going to let go your crashing my thread with more "happy talk" stats but this latest is a little too much. I titled this as a "we told you so " because we DID. Melonie especially has been posting about the student debt bubble for YEARS ! I noted just ONE story out of many just scratching the surface of the issue.

    "Many positve stories " ? Really ? Name one. Melonie and I have continually pointed out the REAL unemployment rate and that the new jobs that are really being created are still way below the number we need just to keep pace with population growth.

    GM and Chrysler ? The jury is still out although I'll admit it looks better than it did few months ago.

    The debt ? Public and private ?

    State and city finances ?

    The deficit ?

    Energy prices ?

    Food prices ?

    The PPI ?

    M1 , M2, M3 , monetary velocity ?

    Greece ?

    Chinese growth prospects ?

    Wall St. bonuses ?

    Just WHERE am I supposed to be looking for all this "good news" ?
    Look pretty much everywhere for positive news dude. When you consider that less that 2 years ago we were shedding over 400,000 jobs per month, the DOW was at 7,500 and going down, there were 500-700 point swing routinely on the stock-market, Big Business was on the ropes with many not far away from bankruptcy, many banks, even very big ones were close to shutting their doors, GM and Chrysler were weeks away from going down and taking almost 1 million related auto-industry jobs with them, there was genuine fear of a complete crash and all the rioting and breakdown of society that goes with it.

    Fast forward to now- Dow is hovering around 13,000, most banks are flush with cash, Big Business has almost $2Trillion that they refuse to spend, instead of losing 400,000 jobs per month, were adding over 200,000 the last few months, GM is the largest automaker in the world and both Chrysler and GM are expanding and hiring, Consumer confidence is rising, real estate demand is steadily increasing and foreclosures and problem loans are slowly being dealt with, many real-estate markets that crashed or went down far are recovering, there is tons of positive stuff to be thankful for.

    As to some of your list of negatives:

    The debt ? Public and private ? The deficit ? - Definitely bad to have the debt, but for now it's manageable and the top priority was to get us out of crisis and create jobs, gain stability and restore confidence in the economy- once those things are in place, it is easier to pay down the defict and debts.

    Energy prices ? Food prices ?- Way too high and while their effect is slowing things down, the economy is still expanding so for now they are manageable. I would definitely like to see action taken on speculation that impacts both of these categories.

    Greece ?- A great lesson in the danger of austerity, not too much we can do on this subject, just focus on growing our own economy and creating jobs.

    Chinese growth prospects ?- China is such a huge market that small or even negative growth will provide a lot of opportunity to American firms able to market there. In any case, we should be focused on growing our own industries, getting heavy into research and development on emerging technologies, fuel technology and anything else that we can create sustainable growth and be competitive or dominant at.

    Wall St bonuses- were way too high anyway, much of that excess money winds up in places where it doesn't circulate through the economy, overall not a very big issue for the national economy.

    Here is some of that "good news" you were asking about:

    "Existing home sales in the United States jumped 4.3% in January to an annual rate of 4.57 million units, much higher than expected, according to data released on Wednesday.

    As homebuyers become more active, they draw down the inventory of unsold homes, which fell to 6.1 months’ supply, the lowest level since before the housing crash"

    http://business.financialpost.com/20...signs-of-life/

    "Consumer confidence was up in February for the sixth straight month, according to a leading barometer, as a record number of people said they were aware of recent gains in the jobs market"
    http://www.latimes.com/business/mone...,1001554.story

    "Survey: 77% of lenders plan to increase small-business loans"
    http://americafunding.blogspot.com/2...-increase.html

    "US Seafood Exports to China Increased 58% in 2011: Reduction of Tariffs will Increase Exports in 2012"
    http://ecologicalaquaculture.org/wel...ed-58-in-2011/

    "U.S. agricultural equipment exports increased 23 percent in 2011 compared to the previous year for a total $11 billion of machinery shipped to other nations,..."
    “The positive global agricultural environment continues to spur business growth for U.S. farm equipment manufacturers. Despite uncertainty in some markets, there remains a solid fundamental demand for food and fuel supplies to meet growing worldwide needs,”

    http://www.worldleasingnews.com/news...ed-23-in-2011/

    "GM Becomes World's Number 1 Automaker, Even VW Surpasses Toyota"
    http://www.autoevolution.com/news/gm...ota-37800.html

    "The US economy, led by a surge in corporate spending on equipment, has moved into the second phase of the recovery and will soon lead to job growth, a bullish John Chambers, CEO of Cisco, told CNBC Thursday."

    "There was not a single leader that I talked with that didn't think either their business or their economy was in dramatically better shape than just two quarters ago," he said."

    "Cisco [CSCO 19.68 0.27 (+1.39%) ], the leading maker of computer networking equipment, is often considered a bellwether for the technology industry, and sometimes for the entire economy."

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/35235026

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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    You completely miss my point- I'm not talking about a person going from a full-time job to a part-time job, I'm talking about a person going from a no-time job to either a full-time or part-time job

    Either way, would you prefer to have people working and have a small part of their pay come from a subsidy or unemployed and have ALL of their money come from tax-payers?.

    And you apparently misunderstand MY point. I'll cite a specific example of a former $75k+ Michigan ex auto worker now working at a 'replacement' job at the local muffler shop. The 'generosity' of the US federal gov't and the state of Michigan supplement this worker's $30k or whatever a year paycheck with medicaid coverage, free school lunches for his kids, potentially rent and utility bill assistance, potential food stamp assistance etc. And this ex auto worker pays zero income tax to either the IRS or to the state of MI on a $30k income level. All of these 'compassionate' gov't benefit measures collectively allow this ex auto worker to avoid moving to North Carolina where a $50k full time job with benefits is available at the local BMW assembly plant - but where the resultant standard of living net of social welfare benefits wouldn't be any higher than if he remained in Michigan.

    However, we are again wandering away from the original point, which is that student loans are now arguably being used as a 'stealth' form of social benefit assistance ... given that half of student loans are presently in technical default ... and given that via bankruptcy, via a proposed gov't set time limits on token repayments, or via other future means, that a huge portion of this loan money will never be paid back with little negative consequence to the defaulting borrower. Not wanting to swing political, but the line between a gov't loan that won't ever be paid back and a gov't grant ( some would use the description gov't `handout ) carrying no requirement of being paid back is essentially non-existant where US taxpayers actually footing the bill for defaulted loans are concerned. Solyndra was only 1/2 billion. Student loans are 1000 billion, and counting !
    Last edited by Melonie; 03-08-2012 at 02:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    And you apparently misunderstand MY point. I'll cite a specific example of a former $75k+ Michigan ex auto worker now working at a 'replacement' job at the local muffler shop. The 'generosity' of the US federal gov't and the state of Michigan supplement this worker's $30k or whatever a year paycheck with medicaid coverage, free school lunches for his kids, potentially rent and utility bill assistance, potential food stamp assistance etc. And this ex auto worker pays zero income tax to either the IRS or to the state of MI on a $30k income level. All of these 'compassionate' gov't benefit measures collectively allow this ex auto worker to avoid moving to North Carolina where a $50k full time job with benefits is available at the local BMW assembly plant.
    First off, please provide some documentation for case study regarding how much of the workers $30,000 per year salary is government subsidized. Second, all the money spent on those benefits you mentioned, where exactly does that money wind up?, does it just disappear into a black hole?, does the recipient somehow manage to squirrel a portion of it away to a Swill bank account?, or does it go right back into the economy and create further economic stimulation?. Does it not make some degree of common sense to spend money on items that stimulate the economy and to a degree assist people who are struggling- thereby keeping the economy flowing and lessening the negative side effect of fiscal disparity that often lead to large scale strikes, riots and sometimes even revolution.

    If you want to get a snap-shot of what the current policies are doing, just follow the money trail, the case study you cite and others like him are in no way living high off the hog, nor are they keeping hardly and of the money they receive- the very, very rich are receiving and retaining the vast majority of the economic proceeds of the country. No one makes money in a bubble- the rich and successful are getting all the money back that is being paid out in assistance, it stimulates the economy, fosters growth and aids in keeping the entire system sustainable. Activity and effort should of course be rewarded but cutting or stopping various forms of social and economic assistance as you seem to be suggesting winds up as a lose-lose for everyone.

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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    A recent report by the Heritage Foundation placed the 'equivalent cash value' of the social welfare benefits provided to a typical unemployed American in the $32,000 per year neighborhood. With a $30k a year job, some portion of eligibility would be lost. But that would still leave some $10k per year in taxpayer funded social welfare benefits. Adding that $10k to the effectively untaxed $30k of earnings = $40k per year. By sheer coincidence, $40k per year is the approximate after-tax amount remaining if working at that $50k job in North Carolina ... which also explains why the resulting standard of living would pretty much be the same.

    What would NOT be the same, however, is the origin of the $10k. In the Michigan muffler shop example, the source is higher earning MI and US taxpayers ( well actually the Chinese, with a promise by higher earning MI and US taxpayers that the borrowed money will be repaid in future years ). In the North Carolina case the source is the worker's productivity amplifying BMW's technological and capital investment. As to you point about X dollars being spread about the community, I'll firmly argue that the spending of actual 'wealth' produced money by a worker is far more beneficial than the spending of an equal amount of 'borrowed' or 'newly printed' money by the gov't. This again goes straight back to the Keynesian 'fallacy' that the two are equivalent. History repeatedly shows that they aren't !

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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    A recent report by the Heritage Foundation placed the 'equivalent cash value' of the social welfare benefits provided to a typical unemployed American in the $32,000 per year neighborhood. With a $30k a year job, some portion of eligibility would be lost. But that would still leave some $10k per year in taxpayer funded social welfare benefits. Adding that $10k to the effectively untaxed $30k of earnings = $40k per year. By sheer coincidence, $40k per year is the approximate after-tax amount remaining if working at that $50k job in North Carolina ... which also explains why the resulting standard of living would pretty much be the same.

    What would NOT be the same, however, is the origin of the $10k. In the Michigan muffler shop example, the source is higher earning MI and US taxpayers ( well actually the Chinese, with a promise by higher earning MI and US taxpayers that the borrowed money will be repaid in future years ). In the North Carolina case the source is the worker's productivity amplifying BMW's technological and capital investment. As to you point about X dollars being spread about the community, I'll firmly argue that the spending of actual 'wealth' produced money by a worker is far more beneficial than the spending of an equal amount of 'borrowed' or 'newly printed' money by the gov't. This again goes straight back to the Keynesian 'fallacy' that the two are equivalent. History repeatedly shows that they aren't !
    Heritage Foundation?, haha.

    The truth is that a large majority of the newly created jobs are full-time and many of them pay well and have benefits. The economy is expanding on almost all fronts and that is reflected in the large amount of hiring taking place. The number of people who are part-time that would like to be full-time decreased pretty significantly and is at it's lowest level since 2009.

    The subsidized jobs you speak of are a very tiny percentage of the total of new hires.

    Some additional food for thought:

    "It was the sixth month in a row that the economy added at least 100,000 jobs, the longest streak since 2006. The economy added jobs every month last year, the first time that has happened since 2005.

    Indeed, the economy added 1.6 million jobs for all of 2011. That is better than the 940,000 it added during 2010. In 2009, the most bruising year of the Great Recession, the nation lost more than 5 million.

    The report painted a picture of a broadly improving job market. Average hourly pay rose by 4 cents. The average workweek lengthened by six minutes, a sign that business is picking up and companies may soon need to hire.

    In manufacturing, the 225,000 jobs added for the year are the most since 1997, and are particularly good signs for the economy. Factory jobs tend to pay well, and plant expansions signal that businesses are gaining confidence about the future.

    LL Bean is adding 125 workers at its plant in Maine to keep up with demand for its popular duck boot. In North Carolina, Baldor Electric is expanding a plant that makes wind-powered motors, adding 166 jobs outside Gastonia. And Chrysler, bouncing back from bankruptcy, just announced that it is hiring 1,250 at two Detroit factories.

    Telecommunications and finance companies are restoring the jobs they eliminated at the depths of the Great Recession. And human resources employees, among the first jobs slashed when the economy collapsed, are in demand.

    A more robust hiring market coincides with data suggesting the economy ended the year with some momentum. Holiday sales were solid, and November and December were the strongest months of 2011 for U.S. auto sales."

    There are also 8.1 million Americans working part-time who would rather be working full-time, though that number has fallen from 9.3 million in September and is the lowest since January 2009.

    http://www.nola.com/business/index.s...bs_in_dec.html

    The above stats are from a January article, things have gotten steadily better from then to now.

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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    Quote Originally Posted by jimboe7373 View Post
    The above stats are from a January article, things have gotten steadily better from then to now.
    Would these numbers change if the Greek debt restructuring is ruled a credit-event that triggers the credit-default swaps? Say a few billion isn't paid back to one bank, it goes under, other banks aren't paid back, they go under, their investors and counterparies go broke, jobs get lost, and so on. It sounds like an abstraction but it is the CDS that is treated as *insurance* against the otherwise higher level of risk in lending to governments with unsustainable debt.

    Maybe we can just print another two trillion to fix that too.

    Buffet said a recovery occurs once we exceed pre-recession levels in GDP, employment, and housing. We're still years away from that. A few good quarters is nice, but I can't help but think it's like a terminally ill patient just having a brief period of lucidity, as the disease continues to take its toll.

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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    Quote Originally Posted by jimboe7373 View Post
    Heritage Foundation?, haha.

    The truth is that a large majority of the newly created jobs are full-time and many of them pay well and have benefits. The economy is expanding on almost all fronts and that is reflected in the large amount of hiring taking place. The number of people who are part-time that would like to be full-time decreased pretty significantly and is at it's lowest level since 2009.

    The subsidized jobs you speak of are a very tiny percentage of the total of new hires.

    Some additional food for thought:

    "It was the sixth month in a row that the economy added at least 100,000 jobs, the longest streak since 2006. The economy added jobs every month last year, the first time that has happened since 2005.

    Indeed, the economy added 1.6 million jobs for all of 2011. That is better than the 940,000 it added during 2010. In 2009, the most bruising year of the Great Recession, the nation lost more than 5 million.

    The report painted a picture of a broadly improving job market. Average hourly pay rose by 4 cents. The average workweek lengthened by six minutes, a sign that business is picking up and companies may soon need to hire.

    In manufacturing, the 225,000 jobs added for the year are the most since 1997, and are particularly good signs for the economy. Factory jobs tend to pay well, and plant expansions signal that businesses are gaining confidence about the future.

    LL Bean is adding 125 workers at its plant in Maine to keep up with demand for its popular duck boot. In North Carolina, Baldor Electric is expanding a plant that makes wind-powered motors, adding 166 jobs outside Gastonia. And Chrysler, bouncing back from bankruptcy, just announced that it is hiring 1,250 at two Detroit factories.

    Telecommunications and finance companies are restoring the jobs they eliminated at the depths of the Great Recession. And human resources employees, among the first jobs slashed when the economy collapsed, are in demand.

    A more robust hiring market coincides with data suggesting the economy ended the year with some momentum. Holiday sales were solid, and November and December were the strongest months of 2011 for U.S. auto sales."

    There are also 8.1 million Americans working part-time who would rather be working full-time, though that number has fallen from 9.3 million in September and is the lowest since January 2009.

    http://www.nola.com/business/index.s...bs_in_dec.html

    The above stats are from a January article, things have gotten steadily better from then to now.
    All true BUT the fact remains that we need to add jobs at the current rate to achieve "full employment " in 2020 ; 2019 at the earliest. That means no dips in employment and no slow-downs in economic growth between then and now. How likely is it THAT will happen ?

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    Default Re: Another "We told you so " - Student Loan Bankruptcies way UP !

    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
    Would these numbers change if the Greek debt restructuring is ruled a credit-event that triggers the credit-default swaps?
    There are thousands of "ifs" that would change the numbers in a negative or a positive direction. We are on a good trend with most of the indicators and the general attitude of the country and business leaders positive for the first time in a while. As far as I'm concerned, not losing 400,000 jobs per month anymore is something to be happy about, adding the amount of jobs that we have for the last 5 months is something else to be happy about. We are not doing bailouts currently and the economy and employment are both going in the right direction, given where we were a few years ago and where we could have potentially gone in terms of economic crash, Down at 4,000 and unemployment at 20% or higher, major bankruptcies for big business and banks etc., I'm very pleased with where we are now.

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