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Thread: The General Purpose "Camming Sucks Right Now" Thread

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    Default Re: The General Purpose "Camming Sucks Right Now" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SarahTime View Post
    Thanks for the suggestion! I am surprisingly doing better on LJ of all places LOL lots of preggo lovers there.

    I haven't tried adultwork, I don't have a passport and I believe that is all they take for US models?
    iFriends offers private only too, I think I read you were partially signed up there? Not sure how pregger lovers are there but it may well be worth the split.

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    Default Re: The VENT Thread, post about things that piss u off :)

    Quote Originally Posted by chloemonet View Post
    I guess my vent is about the sudden dip in paying traffic on Streamate for me. SM used to be my main site, but now I just don't know anymore. I've worked every day on there the past 4 days and haven't even broken $20 yet for the whole 4 days. I really do think all the dating site traffic is harming them BIG TIME and they don't know it or care to change it. I've spent all week telling people I don't meet up, I'm not an escort and this is not a dating site. Everyone else has been a 1-3 min private (if I'm lucky to get one every hour) or freeloaders trying to boss me around. I want to have faith that I could make a come back on there but I just don't know.

    It has me wanting to go back to trying chaturbate full time. At this point it took me less time on there to make $50 than it does to make $20 on SM and that's really saying something. I've been applying for vanilla jobs as a back up plan but I really need this to work out, if nothing else than for the side cash because minimum wage is lowwww here.
    FWIW, I'm making exactly the same average now as over the last 3 months... with the same percentage time in private. If anything, my hourly performance is improving when I look at the rate analysis tool. I didn't notice any dip since they changed the site.

    I have no idea where my placement is on the site. I'm not that concerned about it as I'm Asian and there's usually just 1 or 2 pages of Asian models. I don't use the encoder and stream in 256K standard (not wide screen) and 5 star.

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    Default Re: The General Purpose "Camming Sucks Right Now" Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SarahTime View Post
    Seriously. I can't wait to be done with this shit.

    Hate camming anymore. There's no excuse to be in the top rows of streamate and for it to be this dead. I'm going to do everything in my power to try and "retire" after this baby comes. So done with this bs.
    I was in the second row, front page, it was dead for me to.
    I blame glitches, it was weird, at some point I had the normal 20+ guys in my free chat and than it decreased again to 8/5 guys at a time popping in and out without saying a word (or peeping toms without saying a word even when I was pulling teeth). Luckily I had been online earlier, and spread out my workingshift over the whole day, bec at the other shift things where "normal" - not to many glitches.

    I had an mail from a good reg that he wanted to see me two days ago, and that he was sorry he coudnt but his screen kept freezing.

    But its saturday again, and I love weekends, so hopefully it will go better
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    Default Re: The VENT Thread, post about things that piss u off :)

    How insensitive are these fuckers.. I told this guy i cant really type long because I have a torn rotator cuff and the other shoulder isnt much better.. ( weak) cuz it was broken a lil over 2 yrs ago.. he was on a mobile phone so no sound for him.. and he says oh ok bummer.. so where are you from?..WTF!.. just continues on to carry on a conversation in free chat despite my handicap.. this is what pisses me off about them.

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    Default Re: The VENT Thread, post about things that piss u off :)

    Quote Originally Posted by tropo View Post
    FWIW, I'm making exactly the same average now as over the last 3 months... with the same percentage time in private. If anything, my hourly performance is improving when I look at the rate analysis tool. I didn't notice any dip since they changed the site.

    I have no idea where my placement is on the site. I'm not that concerned about it as I'm Asian and there's usually just 1 or 2 pages of Asian models. I don't use the encoder and stream in 256K standard (not wide screen) and 5 star.
    That's great that you've been making consistent money, but that can't be said for all of us... I'm not the only one that's been having issues with Streamate customers and traffic lately. I'm not blaming the change in site layout, it's actually grown on me and I really like it. I'm talking about the way we're advertised as "hot girls in your area ready to fuck!" I understand that it's a marketing tool, but at the same time all I have is guys in my room leaving after they find out we're not from the same area, and if they are close to my area they want to meet up for sex or pay me for sex. They're never interested in buying a show. And those have been the only talking members in my chatroom for a while now. this is with HD, top notch internet and pretty good placement. (Top row or top 3 rows for black girls, middle to bottom of the first page)

    It's awesome that you're pulling in $$$, do your thing girl, the same just can't be said for all of us...
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    Default Re: The VENT Thread, post about things that piss u off :)

    ^^ the point I was making was that I haven't noticed any change since the site change nearly 2 weeks ago. I never look at the site, so if I hadn't have heard about it here I wouldn't have known. I'm not making mega bucks, but it is steady income.

    IMO, the girls who are struggling are the ones charging high rates (too much), but this type of talk usually ends up with an argument on the Streamate thread, suggesting that I'm downgrading myself with my rates. There's lots of cheapskate customers on SM, but they add up with a few minutes here and few minutes there.

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    Default Re: The VENT Thread, post about things that piss u off :)

    While I appreciate and respect your opinion?? BUT!.. from all the sites I have ever worked on in my life .. i have never seen a site that guys will pay high rates on moreso than on SM.. they refuse to pay high rates on any other cam site i am on.. so i dunno so much of the validity you speak of... like you i thought it was impossible to charge more than 2.99 per min.. but on SM in particular you can get away with charging ALOT unlike any other site. ...forgive me, but i think you have such cheapskate customers because you charge less.. I charged 1.99 per min on there at one time.. it was a fucking nitemare.

    Quote Originally Posted by tropo View Post
    ^^ the point I was making was that I haven't noticed any change since the site change nearly 2 weeks ago. I never look at the site, so if I hadn't have heard about it here I wouldn't have known. I'm not making mega bucks, but it is steady income.

    IMO, the girls who are struggling are the ones charging high rates (too much), but this type of talk usually ends up with an argument on the Streamate thread, suggesting that I'm downgrading myself with my rates. There's lots of cheapskate customers on SM, but they add up with a few minutes here and few minutes there.

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    Default Re: The VENT Thread, post about things that piss u off :)

    Quote Originally Posted by tropo View Post
    ^^ the point I was making was that I haven't noticed any change since the site change nearly 2 weeks ago. I never look at the site, so if I hadn't have heard about it here I wouldn't have known. I'm not making mega bucks, but it is steady income.

    IMO, the girls who are struggling are the ones charging high rates (too much), but this type of talk usually ends up with an argument on the Streamate thread, suggesting that I'm downgrading myself with my rates. There's lots of cheapskate customers on SM, but they add up with a few minutes here and few minutes there.
    girl...lol honestly it seems to me that you missed the point of what i was saying initially, as well as my response. this is a venting thread, and you posted about making steady money in response to me saying i've been having a shit week. & my rates haven't been "high" or "too much" all week, they're on the low end of what girls on here charge. i've been camming for almost a year and i've banked with these rates plenty of time, so i know that can't be it either.

    nobody said you were downgrading yourself...at one point my rates on SM were 1.99/2.99 when i had shitty internet and roommates so i couldn't be super loud. trust me i know that cheap guys add up lol my point is, and still was that cheap guys can't add up if they're not even staying more than a minute or two, and they blatantly tell me they're not interested in tipping or buying a show.
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    Default Re: The VENT Thread, post about things that piss u off :)

    ^^ Yes, I agree that some girls can get away with charging higher rates on SM than anywhere else. I've tried different rates, I know the best rates for me. Just remember I'm not the one on here complaining that I'm not making any money. I don't mind cheapskate customers, they're not a nightmare to me as they pay the bills. I've been working on cheap sites for a long time - I probably have a lot more tolerance. I have zero banned members on Streamate in 3 months and I put in 48 hours a week - that should tell you something about my personality.

    The fact that you're struggling with high rates and I'm cruising at a low rate should be enough to suggest my theory has validity.

    At the end of the day I've got bills to pay and they don't stop.

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    Default Re: The VENT Thread, post about things that piss u off :)

    ^^the hours you are working and the amount you charge is completely irrelevant.. and what anyone is complaining about is ALSO irrelevant.. with high rates I am still making over what I need to live.. even with bad times.. And there is never a week for me personally that I didn't make enough to pay the bills.. and I am not working these long hours that you are.. I do work more than most but less than 40 a week.. I work 40 a week because i want to.. but I do think ( after reading many of your post arguing with other girls about this issue.. that you are saying that's all you can have.. You tell yourself that's it for you and lucky for everyone else who charges more.. I think you have put yourself into this bubble.. In order to see any real change with a RATE change.. it takes a few weeks or a month to notice that yes you are worth more than what you think can charge.. sounds to me like you give it a day and go back because maybe you are struggling.. and you probably do have a higher tolerance to abusive behavior.. I for one have ZERO tolerance.. to much abuse and to old.

    Quote Originally Posted by tropo View Post
    ^^ Yes, I agree that some girls can get away with charging higher rates on SM than anywhere else. I've tried different rates, I know the best rates for me. Just remember I'm not the one on here complaining that I'm not making any money. I don't mind cheapskate customers, they're not a nightmare to me as they pay the bills. I've been working on cheap sites for a long time - I probably have a lot more tolerance. I have zero banned members on Streamate in 3 months and I put in 48 hours a week - that should tell you something about my personality.

    The fact that you're struggling with high rates and I'm cruising at a low rate should be enough to suggest my theory has validity.

    At the end of the day I've got bills to pay and they don't stop.

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    Default Re: The VENT Thread, post about things that piss u off :)

    ^^^ thank you. Couldn't have said it better myself. If I was working 48 hours a week and not making mega bucks it wouldn't be worth it, but to each their own. I also have zero tolerance for abuse, if I wanted to be bossed around I'd go back to full time vanilla work.
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    Default Re: The VENT Thread, post about things that piss u off :)

    Quote Originally Posted by chloemonet View Post
    girl...lol honestly it seems to me that you missed the point of what i was saying initially, as well as my response. this is a venting thread, and you posted about making steady money in response to me saying i've been having a shit week. & my rates haven't been "high" or "too much" all week, they're on the low end of what girls on here charge. i've been camming for almost a year and i've banked with these rates plenty of time, so i know that can't be it either.

    nobody said you were downgrading yourself...at one point my rates on SM were 1.99/2.99 when i had shitty internet and roommates so i couldn't be super loud. trust me i know that cheap guys add up lol my point is, and still was that cheap guys can't add up if they're not even staying more than a minute or two, and they blatantly tell me they're not interested in tipping or buying a show.
    Yep, this is a venting thread. What are the rules in this thread?

    In reality $2.99 is not a low rate. It's nearly $180 per hour for the customers. The problem is that I only get paid 30% of that. I make more on sites at $1.99 which pay 50%.

    What do my customers get for $2.99 per minutes? A tiny 320x240 resolution window streamed at 256k maximum. That's not much for the money. Streaming in HD is not an option for me as I cannot get a fast enough connection. If I charged more I'd have to improve my video quality.

    I've never charged $1.99 on SM because my commission is too low.

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    Default Re: The VENT Thread, post about things that piss u off :)

    Quote Originally Posted by anonymous camgirl View Post
    ^^the hours you are working and the amount you charge is completely irrelevant.. and what anyone is complaining about is ALSO irrelevant.. with high rates I am still making over what I need to live.. even with bad times.. And there is never a week for me personally that I didn't make enough to pay the bills.. and I am not working these long hours that you are.. I do work more than most but less than 40 a week.. I work 40 a week because i want to.. but I do think ( after reading many of your post arguing with other girls about this issue.. that you are saying that's all you can have.. You tell yourself that's it for you and lucky for everyone else who charges more.. I think you have put yourself into this bubble.. In order to see any real change with a RATE change.. it takes a few weeks or a month to notice that yes you are worth more than what you think can charge.. sounds to me like you give it a day and go back because maybe you are struggling.. and you probably do have a higher tolerance to abusive behavior.. I for one have ZERO tolerance.. to much abuse and to old.
    Yep, that's why I don't post too much in the Streamate thread any more. I learnt my lesson quickly. I still disagree with your opinion about rate change and especially about it taking weeks to find out, but let's leave it at that. We're all living in our own bubbles, aren't we?

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    Default Re: The VENT Thread, post about things that piss u off :)

    Yes, definately, i live in a world where good people don't exist at all.. but anyways, i digress..(sigh).. so you say you can't use better internet?? and stream in HD.. is that because of your location?

    Quote Originally Posted by tropo View Post
    Yep, that's why I don't post too much in the Streamate thread any more. I learnt my lesson quickly. I still disagree with your opinion about rate change and especially about it taking weeks to find out, but let's leave it at that. We're all living in our own bubbles, aren't we?

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    Default Re: The VENT Thread, post about things that piss u off :)

    Quote Originally Posted by tropo View Post
    Yep, this is a venting thread. What are the rules in this thread?

    In reality $2.99 is not a low rate. It's nearly $180 per hour for the customers. The problem is that I only get paid 30% of that. I make more on sites at $1.99 which pay 50%.

    What do my customers get for $2.99 per minutes? A tiny 320x240 resolution window streamed at 256k maximum. That's not much for the money. Streaming in HD is not an option for me as I cannot get a fast enough connection. If I charged more I'd have to improve my video quality.

    I've never charged $1.99 on SM because my commission is too low.
    well for one you weren't "venting" about anything...you were replying to my having a shitty week with "oh i've been making consistent money, my hourly has gone up, it's because of your rates" wtf? lol honestly that was inconsiderate/uncalled for. if you were having a shitty week (and let's face it, it happens to all of us) and someone replied with "i've still been making money anyway, you're the one complaining about what you're making not me, i work 48 hours a week" what would you say?

    we're clearly on two different ends of the spectrum. my prices are "high" to you because i have the qualifications for it. i have a HD cam, fast internet and stream at 800-1200 bit rate....why would i be charging the same as you? your rates are where mine were at when i didn't have any of the equipment i have now. and that's nothing personal - it's simply a matter of equipment quality. who gives a fuck what they're paying? it's personalized porn, they'll pay if they want it that damn bad. most of these guys cum in 5 minutes or less, if they can't afford $8-20 for a session, depending on how long they stay, i don't want them as customers.
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    Default Re: The VENT Thread, post about things that piss u off :)

    I get into one of these moods every once and a while, but it still makes me struggle to think about.

    My mother was a fashion model for a while. She dropped out of the industry because there just isn't a long life in a modeling career. You usually retire at around 40...and that's if you are lucky. For most girls they are stuck retiring at 30 years old.

    It's the same for girls who dance, strip, or cam. Making money off of your looks does not last forever, and I'm really worried about this. My time is seriously flying by. I'm happier with my life than I have ever been. I have about 9 years left in the industry into I turn 30. I know that isn't old, but there's a lot of girls that retire that young in any looks-related field. I plan on keeping my skin looking as good as it can until I'm 40-45. Are guys even going to be interested in me when I'm 45 when there's very hot 20 year olds ready to fuck themselves for under $2 a minute? How is technology going to change by then? I'm just so concerned.

    In my heart I know I'm doing everything I can to prepare for life outside of camming. I make videos, I do a lot of vanilla-career related things when I can. I have my fiance who I know will work for me when I cannot. He's my best friend. I'm also trying my best to make investments, save money, and keep up my skincare. I'm doing everything I can, but I still worry it's not enough and I'll die poor and destitute because I made a stupid decision.

    Can any older ladies chime in on how they feel about this?

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    Default Re: The VENT Thread, post about things that piss u off :)

    ^^ for you chloemonet since i didn't attach the quote) Girl!.. I wish i had GIF for you today.. but you need not be arguing with another host.. just drop it like it's hot.... and do your thang.. this argument is so pointless.. she is deadset on doing her thing and you do not have to DEFEND yourself.. YOu are defending and explaining yourself away.. wasting valuable precious time.. .. just get on with it..

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    Default Re: The VENT Thread, post about things that piss u off :)

    ^ I'm 26 but hell, on Streamate alone, so many of the really successful ladies are 30+! I've seen a 59 year old rocking it on the first page! Persoanally, I'll keep going as long as they'll have me, provided I'm not bored of it! xxxx

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    Default Re: The VENT Thread, post about things that piss u off :)

    Quote Originally Posted by anonymous camgirl View Post
    ^^ for you chloemonet since i didn't attach the quote) Girl!.. I wish i had GIF for you today.. but you need not be arguing with another host.. just drop it like it's hot.... and do your thang.. this argument is so pointless.. she is deadset on doing her thing and you do not have to DEFEND yourself.. YOu are defending and explaining yourself away.. wasting valuable precious time.. .. just get on with it..
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    Default Re: The VENT Thread, post about things that piss u off :)

    You are worried?? I started when i was 30.. I am now.. going to be 42 this year.. I make the same amount always.. age has nothing to do with the amount of money i ever made.. I think as a camgirl you evolve.. YOu let your mind work for you... you manipulate, passive agressive you play games right back to men .. to give you the money.. because I am sure that if i was 20 i probably would be making a fuck ton more money.. but I have to use my mind more.. the industry is another thing.. it is forever changing and that is what i am worried about.. I am very annoyed that I started camming as a way to survive and hold my family together and along the way i helped others who were less fortunate than I.. and now i am stuck left holding this empty bag I am trying to fill up by myself.. ALL ALONE.. barely like another human being on the planet.. because all my good years were wasted to help others and they left me high and dry.. and now i am all alone trying to make it work out in the end.. who knows what the rest of life has to offer.. but right now it sucks.

    Quote Originally Posted by anoncamgirl View Post
    I get into one of these moods every once and a while, but it still makes me struggle to think about.

    My mother was a fashion model for a while. She dropped out of the industry because there just isn't a long life in a modeling career. You usually retire at around 40...and that's if you are lucky. For most girls they are stuck retiring at 30 years old.

    It's the same for girls who dance, strip, or cam. Making money off of your looks does not last forever, and I'm really worried about this. My time is seriously flying by. I'm happier with my life than I have ever been. I have about 9 years left in the industry into I turn 30. I know that isn't old, but there's a lot of girls that retire that young in any looks-related field. I plan on keeping my skin looking as good as it can until I'm 40-45. Are guys even going to be interested in me when I'm 45 when there's very hot 20 year olds ready to fuck themselves for under $2 a minute? How is technology going to change by then? I'm just so concerned.

    In my heart I know I'm doing everything I can to prepare for life outside of camming. I make videos, I do a lot of vanilla-career related things when I can. I have my fiance who I know will work for me when I cannot. He's my best friend. I'm also trying my best to make investments, save money, and keep up my skincare. I'm doing everything I can, but I still worry it's not enough and I'll die poor and destitute because I made a stupid decision.

    Can any older ladies chime in on how they feel about this?

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    Default Re: The VENT Thread, post about things that piss u off :)

    Quote Originally Posted by anonymous camgirl View Post
    Yes, definately, i live in a world where good people don't exist at all.. but anyways, i digress..(sigh).. so you say you can't use better internet?? and stream in HD.. is that because of your location?
    Yes, I have 2 of the best connections I can get in my area, which are both maximum 1Mb upload, so I use Connectify Dispatch to join them together so I can use both simultaneously. On top of that I'm about 10,000 miles away from the site servers in Europe and USA. I'm also streaming to 4 sites at once, so there's no way I can use HD... in fact I'm lucky to stream at 256K. I have no idea what my video looks like.

    Hopefully later this year I'll have access to a 5Mb upload connection if they put cables in my area, but I still have extreme distances, which cannot be solved. The distances mean that I'm lucky to get a ping of 250 ms to any servers I'm connected to.

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    Default Re: The VENT Thread, post about things that piss u off :)

    Quote Originally Posted by anonymous camgirl View Post
    You are worried?? I started when i was 30.. I am now.. going to be 42 this year.. I make the same amount always.. age has nothing to do with the amount of money i ever made.. I think as a camgirl you evolve.. YOu let your mind work for you... you manipulate, passive agressive you play games right back to men .. to give you the money.. because I am sure that if i was 20 i probably would be making a fuck ton more money.. but I have to use my mind more.. the industry is another thing.. it is forever changing and that is what i am worried about.. I am very annoyed that I started camming as a way to survive and hold my family together and along the way i helped others who were less fortunate than I.. and now i am stuck left holding this empty bag I am trying to fill up by myself.. ALL ALONE.. barely like another human being on the planet.. because all my good years were wasted to help others and they left me high and dry.. and now i am all alone trying to make it work out in the end.. who knows what the rest of life has to offer.. but right now it sucks.
    We're not that much different. I support my whole family of 6 brothers and sisters, nephews and nieces, mother and father with my camming income. It's a very lonely life as no one in my family has a clue what I do so I can't talk to anyone about it. I can't have friends either. I can't have my own children because I can't take time off, and can't afford damage to my body... and couldn't look after them anyway. I'm 26 now and started camming when I turned 18.... perhaps I shouldn't write this...wtf, it'a venting thread, right?... Before that I worked as a bargirl and sold my virginity at a very young age (can't say), the proceeds of which built a little house for my family (before anyone starts grilling my family for being traffickers - they didn't know - I was living with an aunt at the time who also didn't know), who at that time lived in a bamboo hut. My father was sick with TB and worked all day in the hot sun on rice fields for about $2 a day. My aunt was an abusive bitch who kicked me out of the house when I was 14 and I found a job working in a bar, dancing in a bikini for sex tourists. My aunt wanted to set me up with this horrible guy for so much per month, which I refused.

    To be honest, you people on here are the only ones who know this story as I've never told it to anyone before. I suppose I also wanted to vent. Maybe they will ban me for telling this story??

    And just to continue venting, the world's strongest typhoon ever hit my family home directly on November 8 last year and I've spent all year trying to pay for the repairs. It took the roof completely off.
    Last edited by tropo; 05-10-2014 at 02:02 PM.

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  42. #4998
    God/dess anonymous camgirl's Avatar
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    Default Re: The VENT Thread, post about things that piss u off :)

    No one would ban you for telling your story.. I learned a long time ago that most of these girls have triggers and issues that pick fights with others.. push the right buttons and you are in war on SW.. ....so i try to be diplomatic because we all have our abusive stories to tell.. we all have triggers that will ignite a flame.. thank you for sharing your story as now we know why you are the way you are..and now we can respect your experience and understand your position better, without full on war... see the thing i see is 2 girls fighting with each other over their own issues and demons they deal with.. not truly the issue at hand... none of you are fighting with each other.. it's about your own life and triggers of hell.. lot of that going on here.

    Quote Originally Posted by tropo View Post
    We're not that much different. I support my whole family of 6 brothers and sisters, nephews and nieces, mother and father with my camming income. It's a very lonely life as no one in my family has a clue what I do so I can't talk to anyone about it. I can't have friends either. I can't have my own children because I can't take time off, and can't afford damage to my body... and couldn't look after them anyway. I'm 26 now and started camming when I turned 18.... perhaps I shouldn't write this...wtf, it'a venting thread, right?... Before that I worked as a bargirl and sold my virginity at a very young age (can't say), the proceeds of which built a little house for my family (before anyone starts grilling my family for being traffickers - they didn't know - I was living with an aunt at the time who also didn't know), who at that time lived in a bamboo hut. My father was sick with TB and worked all day in the hot sun on rice fields for about $2 a day. My aunt was an abusive bitch who kicked me out of the house when I was 14 and I found a job working in a bar, dancing in a bikini for sex tourists. My aunt wanted to set me up with this horrible guy for so much per month, which I refused.

    To be honest, you people on here are the only ones who know this story as I've never told it to anyone before. I suppose I also wanted to vent. Maybe they will ban me for telling this story??

    And just to continue venting, the world's strongest typhoon ever hit my family home directly on November 8 last year and I've spent all year trying to pay for the repairs. It took the roof completely off.

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  44. #4999
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    Default Re: The VENT Thread, post about things that piss u off :)

    Quote Originally Posted by anonymous camgirl View Post
    No one would ban you for telling your story.. I learned a long time ago that most of these girls have triggers and issues that pick fights with others.. push the right buttons and you are in war on SW.. ....so i try to be diplomatic because we all have our abusive stories to tell.. we all have triggers that will ignite a flame.. thank you for sharing your story as now we know why you are the way you are..and now we can respect your experience and understand your position better, without full on war... see the thing i see is 2 girls fighting with each other over their own issues and demons they deal with.. not truly the issue at hand... none of you are fighting with each other.. it's about your own life and triggers of hell.. lot of that going on here.
    I learnt that early on in the Streamate thread (a couple of months ago). I was just being honest about stuff and straight away had girls jumping down my throat, and of course, as I tend to do, I responded in kind. I work on SM, so I always read that thread and learnt quite a bit, but I don't like it much - so it's now more of a read-only thread for me. It's like the SM fraternity of girls thanking each other all day long... and you need an invitation to join the inner circle.

  45. #5000
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    Default Re: The VENT Thread, post about things that piss u off :)

    Amen! Nobody knows the (full) story behind every cam girl posting here, some things we are willing to tell, some not or is very hard to talk about. I know certain things trigger negative emotions here due to personal life experiences, it's happening to everyone, our job is not easy as we work with our bodies, minds & souls but at a very intimate level, nothing compared to vanilla work. Cheers & all the best to everyone!

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