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    Default Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    Austerity Is a Disaster: The Lesson of Europe's Record Unemployment

    Euro zone unemployment just hit a 15-year high. German unemployment just hit a 15-year low. What can those of us across the Atlantic glean from this seemingly bipolar state of affairs? That austerity, every economic conservative's favorite prescription for an ailing economy -- the medicine Republicans here in the United States are pushing hard -- is an utter disaster.

    Read more:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...oyment/255334/

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    If you're a dancer in one of those European countries that have implemented austerity measures, you can expect things to be slow for quite some time.

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Austerity Is a Disaster: The Lesson of Europe's Record Unemployment

    Euro zone unemployment just hit a 15-year high. German unemployment just hit a 15-year low. What can those of us across the Atlantic glean from this seemingly bipolar state of affairs? That austerity, every economic conservative's favorite prescription for an ailing economy -- the medicine Republicans here in the United States are pushing hard -- is an utter disaster.

    Read more:

    Short-term pain is a given with austerity. The idea is that it sets the stage for *real* long-term grown.

    More drinking will not cure a hangover.

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    Germany is to the EuroZone what China is to the USA ... a net exporter who is willing to 'finance' the sale of their products by loaning money to customer countries who wish to spend more than they are 'worth'. Germany has been able to switch rapidly falling sales to the PIIG countries into rapidly increasing sales to other countries as a result of Europe's economic problems weakening the Euro exchange rate versus other major currencies ... which in turn makes German exports appear more attractive than, say, Japanese exports priced in strong Yen to customers in India or South America, for example.

    When discussing the relative merits of austerity, one must also consider the 'Broken Window' fallacy ... i.e. what would have otherwise happened if the gov'ts of greece et al had not embarked on a policy of unsustainable social spending in the first place.
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-05-2012 at 01:16 AM.

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Germany is to the EuroZone what China is to the USA ... a net exporter who is willing to 'finance' the sale of their products by loaning money to customer countries who wish to spend more than they are 'worth'. Germany has been able to switch rapidly falling sales to the PIIG countries into rapidly increasing sales to other countries as a result of Europe's economic problems weakening the Euro exchange rate versus other major currencies ... which in turn makes German exports appear more attractive than, say, Japanese exports priced in strong Yen to customers in India or South America, for example.

    When discussing the relative merits of austerity, one must also consider the 'Broken Window' fallacy ... i.e. what would have otherwise happened if the gov'ts of greece et al had not embarked on a policy of unsustainable social spending in the first place.

    You mean opportunity cost?

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Austerity Is a Disaster: The Lesson of Europe's Record Unemployment

    Euro zone unemployment just hit a 15-year high. German unemployment just hit a 15-year low. What can those of us across the Atlantic glean from this seemingly bipolar state of affairs? That austerity, every economic conservative's favorite prescription for an ailing economy -- the medicine Republicans here in the United States are pushing hard -- is an utter disaster.

    Read more:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...oyment/255334/
    Ah yes. The Paul "Krugie" Krugman " borrow and spend until it hurts" and "pay it back whenever" prescription. If you really want to read true sophistry , check out Krugman's columns decrying "austerity" while dancing around Greece and the other PIIGS. According to Mr. O'Brien's own chart, the highest unemployment is in the worst of the spendthrifts i.e. Greece, Ireland, Portugal and Spain, with Italy not far behind.

    Nobody said it was going to be easy or that it would not take some time for countries like the U.K. to get their economic houses in order.

    The alternative is what ? More borrowing by the PIIGS ? They can't. Nobody will lend to them. More spending ? That is how they got into their current predicament. Inflate their way out of their current mess ? Not without dropping the Euro and bringing back the Drachma, Peso, Lira etc.

    What's next ? A reprint of the N.Y. Times Op-Ed from the Nobel Prize winning economist advocating a return to an 80% top marginal tax rate ? To promote growth ? I am NOT making this up.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 04-05-2012 at 10:52 AM.

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    Yet another article from a rag in which the author makes potentially fallacious cause and effect arguments without even attempting to establish the direct causal relationships. How much are the unemployment rates directly caused by "austerity" as opposed to the already worsening economic conditions, including, but not limited to, the complete lack of lending by these nations' banks as they struggle to stay afloat themselves? How much did "austerity" really move the dial and how can you isolate it from the various other economic issues that were already worsening before austerity?

    But let's assume for a moment that we buy this author's unsubstantiated and politically convenient premise...

    Greece is in trouble because Greece overspent, period. For too long, the country spent too far beyond its economic means. Finally, some adult supervision entered the picture and they are now being forced to take some fiscal responsibility, albeit only after other parties were already forced to eat 100 billion euros in money owed to them and will likely be asked to eat more down the road.

    In fact, the debt restructuring is as likely to be the cause of Greece's unemployment issues as is so-called austerity as Greek banks are on the verge of collapse - completely unable to lend - because they lost billions in the Greek bonds that they were holding as a result of this controlled default.

    What is worse, however, is that Greece operated with such reckless irresponsibility for so long, and dug themselves so far into the hole as a result, that even with austerity and massive debt write-offs, there is no guarantee that it will be anywhere close to solvent in the foreseeable future.

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    Which is why I have predicted that Greece , not Albania, will be Europe's "Haiti".

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    You mean opportunity cost?
    In a sense. Austerity in an official gov't debt repayment context devolves to the gov't attempting to extract more money from citizens via tax increases in order for the gov't to spend that money repaying debts. That money is obviously lost to the private sector for alternative consumption or investment purposes. The author of the posted article attempts to make an implied linkage between the increased tax burden imposed by austerity as well as the lack of consumption spending and capital with the Greek economy slowing down thus shedding jobs. My question relates to what presently 'unseen' opportunities may have developed if the gov't had not borrowed and spent so irresponsibly in the first place, thus did not need to extract such a high percentage of taxes from the Greek private sector.

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    Yet another article from a rag in which the author makes potentially fallacious cause and effect arguments without even attempting to establish the direct causal relationships. How much are the unemployment rates directly caused by "austerity" as opposed to the already worsening economic conditions, including, but not limited to, the complete lack of lending by these nations' banks as they struggle to stay afloat themselves? How much did "austerity" really move the dial and how can you isolate it from the various other economic issues that were already worsening before austerity?

    But let's assume for a moment that we buy this author's unsubstantiated and politically convenient premise...

    Greece is in trouble because Greece overspent, period. For too long, the country spent too far beyond its economic means. Finally, some adult supervision entered the picture and they are now being forced to take some fiscal responsibility, albeit only after other parties were already forced to eat 100 billion euros in money owed to them and will likely be asked to eat more down the road.

    In fact, the debt restructuring is as likely to be the cause of Greece's unemployment issues as is so-called austerity as Greek banks are on the verge of collapse - completely unable to lend - because they lost billions in the Greek bonds that they were holding as a result of this controlled default.

    What is worse, however, is that Greece operated with such reckless irresponsibility for so long, and dug themselves so far into the hole as a result, that even with austerity and massive debt write-offs, there is no guarantee that it will be anywhere close to solvent in the foreseeable future.
    Agreed. The one thing many people miss (not here)is that when a society overspends it causes trouble in the long run. I like to compare spending to the average person. Most people can't spend more than they make (ignoring credit issues here because that's something else)so why countries can't do this too I will never get. Yet many countries are very fiscally irresponsible.

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
    Short-term pain is a given with austerity. The idea is that it sets the stage for *real* long-term grown.
    Countries whose governments have been investing heavily in their economy, such as China and Brazil, have seen very strong long-term growth without "short-term pain". Great Britain, which has been following austerity, has seen practically no economic growth for years.



    How much longer should the British have to endure "short-term pain".

    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
    More drinking will not cure a hangover.
    You're making a faulty analogy. There is no comparison between government investment in the economy and drinking.

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Ah yes. The Paul "Krugie" Krugman " borrow and spend until it hurts" and "pay it back whenever" prescription. If you really want to read true sophistry , check out Krugman's columns decrying "austerity" while dancing around Greece and the other PIIGS. According to Mr. O'Brien's own chart, the highest unemployment is in the worst of the spendthrifts i.e. Greece, Ireland, Portugal and Spain, with Italy not far behind.
    What does this have to do with Paul Krugman? He did not write this article. He is not quoted anywhere in the article. I don't understand this obsession you have with Paul Krugman.

    Government spending is not what is hurting these economies. Austerity is. Economic growth is non-existant, or falling, in countries that implemented austerity. Countries that have implemented stimulus programs have seen their economies grow and unemployment rates fall. Germany implemented the largest stimulus program in Europe and has one of the lowest unemployment rates there.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ld-War-II.html

    Britain has been practicing austerity, and economic growth has been non-existent there. Do you think this is just a coincidence?

    The austerity measures implemented in Greece have been a disaster for the country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Nobody said it was going to be easy or that it would not take some time for countries like the U.K. to get their economic houses in order.
    Why has it been much easier for countries whose governments were willing to spend money to stimulate the economy? Why should people have to go without work because the government isn't willing to spend money?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    The alternative is what ? More borrowing by the PIIGS ? They can't. Nobody will lend to them. More spending ? That is how they got into their current predicament. Inflate their way out of their current mess ? Not without dropping the Euro and bringing back the Drachma, Peso, Lira etc.
    They can start by collecting their taxes. The Greek government has a very poor record when it comes to collecting taxes. IMO, some of the countries in Europe, such as Greece, would be better off to drop the Euro and return to their own currency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    What's next ? A reprint of the N.Y. Times Op-Ed from the Nobel Prize winning economist advocating a return to an 80% top marginal tax rate ? To promote growth ? I am NOT making this up.
    Again, I don't see what Paul Krugman has to do with this. Nobody here has advocated raising taxes to 80%. While I am not advocating returning the top tax rate to 70%, we did have much stronger growth in the 1960's, when the top tax rate was 70%, than we did over the past decade when taxes have been historically low, compared to the previous 50 years.

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    Yet another article from a rag in which the author makes potentially fallacious cause and effect arguments without even attempting to establish the direct causal relationships. How much are the unemployment rates directly caused by "austerity" as opposed to the already worsening economic conditions, including, but not limited to, the complete lack of lending by these nations' banks as they struggle to stay afloat themselves? How much did "austerity" really move the dial and how can you isolate it from the various other economic issues that were already worsening before austerity?
    Just because you disagree with the article doesn't make it a "rag". Countries whose governments have stimulated the economy with stimulus spending have been faring better than countries that have implemented austerity measures. As I mentioned in my previous post, Germany implemented the biggest stimulus program in Europe, and is now having decent economic growth and has had unemployment fall. China implemented a massive stimulus program shortly after the financial crisis occurred, and returned to pre-crisis growth within a few months. Countries following austerity, such as Great Britain, have seen economic stagnation.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    But let's assume for a moment that we buy this author's unsubstantiated and politically convenient premise...

    Greece is in trouble because Greece overspent, period. For too long, the country spent too far beyond its economic means. Finally, some adult supervision entered the picture and they are now being forced to take some fiscal responsibility, albeit only after other parties were already forced to eat 100 billion euros in money owed to them and will likely be asked to eat more down the road.

    In fact, the debt restructuring is as likely to be the cause of Greece's unemployment issues as is so-called austerity as Greek banks are on the verge of collapse - completely unable to lend - because they lost billions in the Greek bonds that they were holding as a result of this controlled default.

    What is worse, however, is that Greece operated with such reckless irresponsibility for so long, and dug themselves so far into the hole as a result, that even with austerity and massive debt write-offs, there is no guarantee that it will be anywhere close to solvent in the foreseeable future.
    Greece's problem has been much more of a revenue problem than a spending problem. Tax evasion in Greece has been rampant for years.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/wo...pagewanted=all

    If the Greek government had been collecting the taxes owed over the past decade, Greece would not be nearly as bad off today as it is.

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    There is s a key difference between gov't spending by China and Brazil, versus gov't spending by Greece, the UK, or for that matter the USA. China and Brazil both spend money after they have actually earned it ... i.e. export profits ... which does not have to be paid back out of future budgets. Greece, the UK, and the USA are all spending borrowed / printed money ... which DOES have to be paid back via a future burden on their import based economies / taxpayers. And that future burden of repayment is totally non-productive. Beyond that, the primary difference between Greece and the UK / US is that Greece must pay back that borrowed and previously spent money as 'constant' Euros which requires additional taxation and spending cuts, whereas the UK / US can accomplish a ( partial ) stealth repayment of that borrowed and previously spent money by devaluing the currency in which repayment is made versus it's value at the time it was borrowed and spent.

    When gov'ts must borrow money, an equation forms which balances the cost of repayment against the economic growth achieved as a result of the initial spending of that borrowed money. This is also referred to as the 'multiplier' effect. In times past, the 'multiplier' was greater than 1.0 ... sometimes much greater. But today the 'multiplier' effect is less than 1, meaning that the future burden of repayment exceeds any immediate beneficial effects.

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    All over the world govt has promised more to it's people, and delivered by borrowing money..... The lenders need to take a bigger hit...... Austerity wont help the people..... It will only help those who will buy (on the cheap) and privatize govt assets..... The debt deleveraging will continue..... and few on the ground will benefit.
    The country has been looted.

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Just because you disagree with the article doesn't make it a "rag"..
    I deem any publication to be a rag when it will publish an opinion piece, containing no intellectual rigor and presenting unproven cause and effect theories as if they were already established facts, as if it were a bonified news article.

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Countries whose governments have stimulated the economy with stimulus spending have been faring better than countries that have implemented austerity measures. As I mentioned in my previous post, Germany implemented the biggest stimulus program in Europe, and is now having decent economic growth and has had unemployment fall. China implemented a massive stimulus program shortly after the financial crisis occurred, and returned to pre-crisis growth within a few months. Countries following austerity, such as Great Britain, have seen economic stagnation..
    First, China and Germany had a lot going for them outside of stimulus. There is no way to isolate out just how much the stimulus packages contributed to the economic recoveries vs. other factors, including (as Melonie mentioned) the fact that both countries are net exporters of goods.

    But if we must, let's take Germany as an example of good stimulus. First, most of Germany's stimulus came in the form of tax cuts rather than spending increases. In fact, Germany is actually reducing its deficit spending and, as a result of legislation passed two years ago, must have a balanced budget by 2016. Of course, none of this made it into that haphazardly constructed article because it didn't suit the author's purpose. Net-net, Germany is in stronger shape now because they are leaving more money in the hands of productive citizens rather than sucking money out of the economy, not because they have engaged on a drunken spending binge.

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Greece's problem has been much more of a revenue problem than a spending problem. Tax evasion in Greece has been rampant for years.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/wo...pagewanted=all

    If the Greek government had been collecting the taxes owed over the past decade, Greece would not be nearly as bad off today as it is.
    Small wonder that tax collection is a problem - Greece's tax rates are downright confiscatory. If Greece tries to tax this so-called underground economy, just wait and see how much of that economy remains to be taxed. If you think unemployment in Greece is bad now, see what happens if you try to take the bulk of each small business owner's earnings through income taxes of 40%+, Social Security taxes of over 28% and VAT taxes that need to be collected at each point of sale.

    Greece is in trouble because Greece spent like a drunken sailor on a never-ending shore leave. And to try to finance this largesse, it put in place a tax system that was untenable. Every economy that has been predicated upon taking the bulk of workers' earnings and redistributing those funds has failed and/or is currently destitute - every single one. And the worse the taxation system is, the larger that country's underground economy becomes. It never ceases to amaze me how little the lessons of history are understood and embraced by governmental decision makers.
    Last edited by rickdugan; 04-06-2012 at 07:10 AM.

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    What does this have to do with Paul Krugman? He did not write this article. He is not quoted anywhere in the article. I don't understand this obsession you have with Paul Krugman.

    Government spending is not what is hurting these economies. Austerity is. Economic growth is non-existant, or falling, in countries that implemented austerity. Countries that have implemented stimulus programs have seen their economies grow and unemployment rates fall. Germany implemented the largest stimulus program in Europe and has one of the lowest unemployment rates there.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ld-War-II.html

    Britain has been practicing austerity, and economic growth has been non-existent there. Do you think this is just a coincidence?

    The austerity measures implemented in Greece have been a disaster for the country.


    Why has it been much easier for countries whose governments were willing to spend money to stimulate the economy? Why should people have to go without work because the government isn't willing to spend money?


    They can start by collecting their taxes. The Greek government has a very poor record when it comes to collecting taxes. IMO, some of the countries in Europe, such as Greece, would be better off to drop the Euro and return to their own currency.



    Again, I don't see what Paul Krugman has to do with this. Nobody here has advocated raising taxes to 80%. While I am not advocating returning the top tax rate to 70%, we did have much stronger growth in the 1960's, when the top tax rate was 70%, than we did over the past decade when taxes have been historically low, compared to the previous 50 years.
    Krugman does not exist in a vacuum. He is just more vicious and intellectually dishonest than the average Keynesian. I think he is the "poster boy" for Keynesian economics, intellectual dishonesty and ( God Help Us ! ) lack of civility.

    If you actually bother looking beneath the surface and look at WHAT these countries are spending money on, there are BIG differences. In Britain the largest slice of the government pie goes for the "dole" in all its forms and manifestations. In contrast, Germany, Brazil and China spend primarily on infrastructure.

    We agree that it is long past time for Greece to leave the EU. Aside from the fact that they lied to get in, Greece will be a basket case for at least a generation.

    Krugman was NOT the author of the Op-Ed I alluded to. He is not the only addled Keynesian out there.

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Just because you disagree with the article doesn't make it a "rag". Countries whose governments have stimulated the economy with stimulus spending have been faring better than countries that have implemented austerity measures. As I mentioned in my previous post, Germany implemented the biggest stimulus program in Europe, and is now having decent economic growth and has had unemployment fall. China implemented a massive stimulus program shortly after the financial crisis occurred, and returned to pre-crisis growth within a few months. Countries following austerity, such as Great Britain, have seen economic stagnation.



    Greece's problem has been much more of a revenue problem than a spending problem. Tax evasion in Greece has been rampant for years.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/wo...pagewanted=all

    If the Greek government had been collecting the taxes owed over the past decade, Greece would not be nearly as bad off today as it is.
    You are NOT entitled to your own facts. Yes, tax evasion in Greece has been a problem since the days of the Ottoman Empire. So what ? All the more reason why Greece was so irresponsible in its spending. Have you looked at the numbers for per capita government borrowing for Greece. Please do so and THEN try to tell us about their "revenue problems". While you're at it, look at the interest rates Greece promised to pay on its borrowings. Another "revenue problem" was it ?

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    There is s a key difference between gov't spending by China and Brazil, versus gov't spending by Greece, the UK, or for that matter the USA. China and Brazil both spend money after they have actually earned it ... i.e. export profits ... which does not have to be paid back out of future budgets. Greece, the UK, and the USA are all spending borrowed / printed money ... which DOES have to be paid back via a future burden on their import based economies / taxpayers. And that future burden of repayment is totally non-productive. Beyond that, the primary difference between Greece and the UK / US is that Greece must pay back that borrowed and previously spent money as 'constant' Euros which requires additional taxation and spending cuts, whereas the UK / US can accomplish a ( partial ) stealth repayment of that borrowed and previously spent money by devaluing the currency in which repayment is made versus it's value at the time it was borrowed and spent.

    When gov'ts must borrow money, an equation forms which balances the cost of repayment against the economic growth achieved as a result of the initial spending of that borrowed money. This is also referred to as the 'multiplier' effect. In times past, the 'multiplier' was greater than 1.0 ... sometimes much greater. But today the 'multiplier' effect is less than 1, meaning that the future burden of repayment exceeds any immediate beneficial effects.
    The reality is that that the money the U.S. has borrowed will NEVER be paid back. Not without a major gold strike , plus the discovery of a major diamond deposit and Saudi type oil reserves. Huh ? WHAT ? Never paid back ? That's right. We will always have a National Debt. The key is to have one that is manageable where there are sufficient revenues to pay the interest on the borrowed money and redeem the T-Bills , notes and bonds as they come due while still having plenty of revenue for other things. Optimally, we should want to replace higher interest short term borrowing with long term low interest borrowing. It is NOT like a mortgage but more like a major corporation issuing high grade long term bonds and continually rolling them over.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 04-06-2012 at 10:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    You are NOT entitled to your own facts.
    This is coming from someone, who along with his partner on the forum, makes stuff up on a regular basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Yes, tax evasion in Greece has been a problem since the days of the Ottoman Empire. So what ? All the more reason why Greece was so irresponsible in its spending. Have you looked at the numbers for per capita government borrowing for Greece. Please do so and THEN try to tell us about their "revenue problems". While you're at it, look at the interest rates Greece promised to pay on its borrowings. Another "revenue problem" was it ?
    Greece's per-capita debt is lower than America's.

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post

    If you actually bother looking beneath the surface and look at WHAT these countries are spending money on, there are BIG differences. In Britain the largest slice of the government pie goes for the "dole" in all its forms and manifestations. In contrast, Germany, Brazil and China spend primarily on infrastructure.
    No, Brazil has spent significant amounts of money on programs for the poor.

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post

    But if we must, let's take Germany as an example of good stimulus. First, most of Germany's stimulus came in the form of tax cuts rather than spending increases. In fact, Germany is actually reducing its deficit spending and, as a result of legislation passed two years ago, must have a balanced budget by 2016. Of course, none of this made it into that haphazardly constructed article because it didn't suit the author's purpose. Net-net, Germany is in stronger shape now because they are leaving more money in the hands of productive citizens rather than sucking money out of the economy, not because they have engaged on a drunken spending binge.
    China's stimulus was mostly in the form of government spending, and was very successful. China's government has been spending mass sums of money on building up their economy and China has seen unprecedented economic growth over the past 25 years.

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    You are NOT entitled to your own facts.
    I don't think you're even capable of responding politely to someone who disagrees with you.

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    China's stimulus was mostly in the form of government spending, and was very successful. China's government has been spending mass sums of money on building up their economy and China has seen unprecedented economic growth over the past 25 years.
    China? No offense eagle, but are we seriously trying to use China as a model of economic prosperty here? Living and working conditions for the average Chinese citizen are widely reported as abysmal and basic necessities continue to be hard to obtain for many Chinese.

    Even your own Hero-in-Chief holds opinions that reflect this reality:

    http://www.peopleforum.cn/redirect.p...oto=nextnewset

    And I'm not even going to go down the road of how reliable the Chinese GDP and poverty statistics even are, but suffice it to say that many have called these figures into question. The reality, howevr, is that the process is such a complete black box that the only ones who know if they are even remotely close are the Chinese.

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    Default Re: Austerity is a disaster in Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    This is coming from someone, who along with his partner on the forum, makes stuff up on a regular basis.



    Greece's per-capita debt is lower than America's.
    Melonie is NOT my partner. I have offered to be her houseboy ; her love slave and to have her baby. She has ALWAYS turned me down. To her credit lol.

    Try looking at Greece's debt to GDP ratio would you please ? It is way higher than ours.

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