Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: Can the US Economy Recover without a Housing Recovery ? - Yes, BUT ...

  1. #1
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Can the US Economy Recover without a Housing Recovery ? - Yes, BUT ...

    the apparent truth on this point ... from


    (snip)Can the US economy recover without a recovery in housing? The answer is yes -- and you are just going to have to be willing to accept that the value of your home today is much closer to its true value than, say, the value of it in June 2006.

    The "mental correlation" is fairly obvious. For most people, their single largest asset in dollar terms is their home – whether you include only the equity or the entire value. It is a key part of the equation of how the average American assesses his own wealth position. The more confidence the average American has in the value of his home, the more likely that confidence will translate to increased spending on other discretionary and non-discretionary consumer purchases.

    The actual data correlation between the housing and economic recoveries is reasonably accurate also. Several recent recessions in the last 20 years have seen housing lead the way in powering out of the recession. Just look at the growth of Home Depot (HD) and Lowe's (LOW) in the last 20 years. The growth in home building and housing has been a big boon to the US economy for 20 years, so of course the data "looks" like it shows an industry leading the way out of recession.

    But the question still hangs out there: Can our economy recover nicely without a housing recovery? The recent economic data already shows a recovering economy, but housing data doesn’t represent any meaningful part of that recovery or growth. There are really no economists predicting a housing boom or recovery any time soon, and yet the economic data has been reasonably reassuring of late (I stress the word "reasonably").

    So the question persists: Are we breaking the mold here? Are we going to recover without the housing market recovering? I think it depends on what everyone means by housing "recovery." If the average person thinks that recovery means we are going back to the 2006 peaks in housing prices, then the answer is clear: We will not have a recovery. How far do housing prices have to rebound to feel like a recovery has occurred?

    I think the answer is not what most hope for. I think the current prices for housing are very close to the new normal. There will not be a meaningful move up from these prices in the next five years. In fact, prices will likely continue the drop before they go back up. But I think the economy will continue to recover, and the recovery still has the potential to be strong despite a drag from housing.

    I think the new normal has already started settling into the psyche of both consumers and investors. I think home owners have realized that housing prices increased too far in too short a time period. I have placed the S&P/Case Shiller Home Price Index since Q1 1987 below:





    Just look at the slope of the two trend lines. The green line looks like the line of the trend in the late '80s and early '90s just continued: normal 3% growth in home values. The red line doesn’t really share any slope characteristics with the rest of the chart. Of course, we know the the ill-fated laws that our Congress passed, which drove the housing bubble, started in the mid-'90s and really took hold in the late '90s and early 2000s.

    The conclusion: Housing is not going to be part of this recovery. The bubble was artificial – and can’t be restored. But the new housing-value normal will settle in to the psyche of the average consumer and investor. It won’t be an impediment to the US economic recovery – it just won’t be a help, either.(snip)


    The author's point of course is that the entire 2000's escalation in home values was an abberation ... that cannot / will not be repeated ... and that housing prices are just now starting to return to their long term 'mean'.

    However, another point unmentioned by the author is that there are arguably 2 million US homes already 'overhanging' the market ... i.e. foreclosed homes owned by banks, etc. that are not actively being marketed ( because doing so would force said banks to book actual losses ). If 'dumped' back onto the market, as they eventually must be, real estate prices will be depressed even further. This strongly implies that US housing prices will 'undershoot' their long term 'mean' over the course of the next couple of years, as was the case following the early 90's 'recession'. And this will be even more the case given that another 2 million homes are already somewhere in the foreclosure pipeline, thus eventually being 'dumped' onto the market as well.

    While all of the above information exclusively concerns the 'supply' side, there are also new variables on the 'demand' side. One of these is the existance of an unprecedented amount of student loan debt ... repayment of which is taking precedence over starting families and assuming home mortgages !!! Another one of these is new regulations requiring that the actual incomes of would-be mortgage seekers must be verified, as well as new regulations requiring that would-be mortgage seekers actually post a significant down payment. Thus the expected 'undershoot' may wind up being longer and deeper than in previous real estate 'cycles' ( the author mentioned 5 more years ).

    The arguable moral of the story is that real estate 'bargain hunters' will probably find better bargains next year than this year, and even better bargains the year after that !!!

    The softly spoken point of the story is that 'average' American homeowners will be worse off next year than they are this year, due to the ongoing loss of value of their primary 'investment' i.e. the family home, and even worse off the year after that.

    The author's arguable larger point is that the US economy has in fact entered a 'new normal' ... which has permanently reduced US housing prices. The argument can be made that a 'new normal' also now applies to US unemployment rates, US wage / pay scales, US food / energy prices, etc. ... and thus has permanently reduced the US standard of living for 'average' Americans.
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-01-2012 at 02:45 AM.

  2. #2
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: Can the US Economy Recover without a Housing Recovery ? - Yes, BUT ...

    Creation of new jobs and manufacturing have both slowed to a crawl.

  3. #3
    Veteran Member
    Joined
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    493
    Thanks
    32
    Thanked 211 Times in 137 Posts

    Default Re: Can the US Economy Recover without a Housing Recovery ? - Yes, BUT ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Creation of new jobs and manufacturing have both slowed to a crawl.
    Could be turning around already:

    "WASHINGTON (Reuters) -Businesses outside the farm sector are expected to have added 170,000 jobs last month, according to a Reuters survey, after rising a meager 120,000 in March."

    "Data on factory activity this week, however, helped ease concerns the economy had lost momentum at the start of the second quarter.
    U.S. manufacturing grew in April at the strongest rate in 10 months, the Institute for Supply Management said on Tuesday."

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/jobs-g...215954981.html

  4. #4
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Can the US Economy Recover without a Housing Recovery ? - Yes, BUT ...

    ^^^ even CNBC isn't buying into that rosey scenario @! From


    (snip)New orders for U.S. factory goods in March recorded their biggest decline in three years as demand for transportation equipment and a range of other goods slumped, government data showed on Wednesday.

    The Commerce Department said orders for manufactured goods dropped 1.5 percent after a revised 1.1 percent rise in February.

    Economists had forecast orders falling 1.6 percent after a previously reported 1.3 percent increase in February.

    While the report showed broad weakness in March in a sector that has carried the economic recovery, anecdotal evidence suggests factories continued to expand as the second quarter started.

    The Institute for Supply Management's index of national manufacturing activity climbed to a 10-month high in April, with a measure of new orders received by factories the highest in a year, data showed on Tuesday."(snip)


    or, put another way, the ISM was way off on their 'prediction' ... and actual factory orders are declining. Note also the downward revision in last month's factory orders number.


    As to the matter of the USA 'adding jobs' ... from


    (snip)"Companies hired far fewer workers than anticipated in April, suggesting the labor market weakened for a second straight month.

    Employment increased by 119,000 after a downwardly revised 201,000 gain a month later, according to the monthly report from payroll giant Automatic Data Processing. Economists had expected companies to add considerably more workers to payrolls in April, closer to 183,000.

    Two consecutive months of lackluster job growth will spark fresh fears on the durability of the recovery. It will also prompt worries—and memories— of 2010 and 2011, when economic growth early in the year gave way to a spring swoon.

    The decline in growth was broad last month, coming across most sectors and industries. Service-providing employers still added the most, some 123,000 new jobs. The manufacturing and construction sector also hired fewer workers after months of growth.

    The financial services sector did see an uptick of 13,000.

    Small- and medium-sized businesses contributed the majority of new jobs. Large companies added only 3.3%.

    A warm winter may have artificially fueled job growth, leading employers to cut back later in the year, economists say. Steadily high jobless claims in past weeks pointed to a softening labor market in April.

    “We don’t usually make a big deal of the ADP numbers for the simple reason that forecasting nonfarm payroll changes with the kind of accuracy the market demands is almost impossible, even with the information ADP has,” says FTN Financial economist Chris Low. “After all, a 0.1% miss is 100,000 jobs. But this morning’s 119,000 ADP estimate… was far enough below the 160k consensus to be noteworthy. It suggests the slowdown in payroll growth to 120k in March was no fluke.”(snip)


    Again I'll raise the fact that, between population growth ( i.e. LEGAL immigration / H1-B ), new high school / college graduates entering the work force etc., a bare minimum of 150,000 ( some say 175,000 ) new jobs need to be created each and every month for the real unemployment rate not to worsen. 120,000 doesn't constitute real employment growth by any stretch of the imagination.

  5. #5
    God/dess Zofia's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Durham, North Carolina
    Posts
    2,417
    Thanks
    2,964
    Thanked 2,370 Times in 934 Posts

    Default Re: Can the US Economy Recover without a Housing Recovery ? - Yes, BUT ...

    One reason the housing market has not recovered is the credit markets remain severely constricted. Lenders are not lending to new home builders, indeed if you don't have stellar credit forget about a new mortgage. Further complicating matters, houses take too long to sell. It's a buyers market right now. So while some prices might be stabilizing there is still a massive overhead of foreclosed homes with questionable titles. There is too little lending.

    Further, that lending constriction extends beyond housing. The same problem exists for businesses. The lending constriction exists because the banks are too big and too few. The too big to fail banks have too many bad loans on their books. Thus, they cannot make many new loans.

    The short answer is, housing is a symptom of a larger problem. Get the banks healthy enough to lend and we will climb out of the recession. Until then, it's slow going with only the people and businesses with ample equity capital that will prosper.

    HTH
    Z

  6. #6
    Veteran Member
    Joined
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    455
    Thanks
    53
    Thanked 175 Times in 109 Posts

    Default Re: Can the US Economy Recover without a Housing Recovery ? - Yes, BUT ...

    The housing market got way overheated because of corrupt lending practices..... Raise your hands if you want that back again..... The whole world was living over it's means because of easy credit.... we are only in the 4 inning of the payback..... The debt deflation continues..... It cannot be stopped.
    The country has been looted.

  7. #7
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Can the US Economy Recover without a Housing Recovery ? - Yes, BUT ...

    Get the banks healthy enough to lend and we will climb out of the recession. Until then, it's slow going with only the people and businesses with ample equity capital that will prosper.
    I would point out that one explanation for the recent upturn in GM / Chrysler vehicle sales has been the willingness of TARP subsidized ALLY BANK to extend credit to would-be auto buyers with comparatively poor credit ratings and next to no capital ( i.e. down payment ). Recent data also shows that Americans spent more than they earned in the first quarter ... resulting in a few comment pieces with titles such as "Americans getting tired of being frugal' !


    we are only in the 4 inning of the payback..... The debt deflation continues
    Until somebody actually books losses, the full effects of debt deflation can be postponed ! This is precisely what has been happening in regard to housing / bad mortgage paper.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Joined
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    160
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked 58 Times in 38 Posts

    Default Re: Can the US Economy Recover without a Housing Recovery ? - Yes, BUT ...

    As much as Id like to see all the construction trades busy with new construction I don't see anyone wandering around looking to find a house because they have no place to live. There are empty houses and condos for sale everywhere, the prices much lower than new construction. Who can't find a place to live?

  9. #9
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Can the US Economy Recover without a Housing Recovery ? - Yes, BUT ...

    Who can't find a place to live?

    Yup a 'bait and switch' statistic for sure. There are unoccupied places to live everywhere you look. The real problem is that there are a large number of people who cannot AFFORD to live in these places !!!

    - recent college graduates are de-facto 'forced' to pay off student loans before they can save for the down payment on a home of their own

    - long term unemployed can't pass an 'income verification' test

    - workers at 'unskilled' jobs ( well, more precisely, workers who are being paid at 'unskilled' wage rates ) can't pass the <31% of income for housing 'stress test'

    Other Americans who DO have good credit ratings, verifiable incomes, and enough income to jump the 31% 'hurdle', often do not want to live in the cities / neighborhoods where vacant housing is plentiful and low priced.

    Put another way, America is slowly being forced to realign its recent standard of living with the realities of today's 'global' economy, and it's effect on wage rates, prices for food and energy etc. This leads to an inescapable conclusion that the 69% home ownership rate achieved during the peak of the housing bubble is going to experience a decline to at least the 'pre-bubble' average of 64%. However, if America's working class ceases to be 'subsidized' in regard to home ownership, a decline to the pre 'subsidy' home ownership level of 47% isn't an impossibility !





    If this were to happen, it basically translates into one out of every three American single family houses lacking an economically 'sustainable' buyer on a more or less permanent basis. For better or worse, in an era of rising property taxes, rising energy prices, rising insurance costs etc., the unsubsidized 'cost' of home ownership involves far more total expense than just a mortgage payment. And these same economic realities make it just as difficult for an 'unsubsidized' landlord to profitably invest in single family rental properties ( with many notable exceptions of course ).


    As much as Id like to see all the construction trades busy with new construction

    In point of fact, a few home builders are very busy right now ... constructing new 'luxury' housing for the 1% ... behind iron gates !!!
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-03-2012 at 03:53 PM.

  10. #10
    Veteran Member
    Joined
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    493
    Thanks
    32
    Thanked 211 Times in 137 Posts

    Default Re: Can the US Economy Recover without a Housing Recovery ? - Yes, BUT ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ even CNBC isn't buying into that rosey scenario @! From http://www.cnbc.com/id/47262178
    I guess you see what you look for- in the same exact link you used to show negative numbers and reports:

    "While the report showed broad weakness in March in a sector that has carried the economic recovery, anecdotal evidence suggests factories continued to expand as the second quarter started."

    "The Institute for Supply Management's index of national manufacturing activity climbed to a 10-month high in April, with a measure of new orders received by factories the highest in a year"

    "Auto sales surged early in the year reflecting pent-up demand from households"

    "Industry data on Tuesday showed motor vehicle sales increased at an annual rate of 14.4 million units in April after rising at a 14.3 million unit pace in March, suggesting fundamental strength in the sector"

    "Strong auto sales buoyed consumer spending in the first quarter and contributed significantly to the economy's 2.2 percent growth pace during that period."


    I guess that beauty, attitude and financial achievement are all in the eye of the beholder. In the 10 years or so that you have published exclusively negative and extremely pessimistic reports in this section predicting impending collapse of both the economy and sometimes the entire society, I and most of the people I am friendly with have been optimistic, happy and have been able to make a pretty fair amount of profit. At the same time I'm sure that you have prospered financially and have received some kind of satisfaction from your various warnings and efforts to inform people of the ideas and concepts that you are so passionate about. Pretty cool that the system allows such a wide range of flexibility and that such diverse views could each experience positive results while utilizing such divergent outlooks and actions.

  11. #11
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Can the US Economy Recover without a Housing Recovery ? - Yes, BUT ...

    ^^^ I didn't include those snippets for a reason ....

    ... anecdotal evidence can 'say' anything. From my own anecdotal evidence, backed up by several other anecdotes I could point out regarding other girls, 'every' stripper / camgirl can retire before age 40 without ever having to worry about working another day of her life !!! In reality, this might be true 1% of the time !

    ... auto sales surged because US taxpayer subsidized GMAC / Ally Bank began writing 'subprime' auto loans with no cash down payment requirement. Agreed that there is high demand for new autos from Americans with low credit scores and zero down payment money who could not get financed via other means. Of course, the future delinquency rate on these 'subprime' auto loans remains to be seen.

    ... industry data for motor vehicle 'sales' is measured via shipments from factories to dealers, not by sales from dealers to the public. So indeed this figure has risen ... right along with the number of unsold vehicles sitting on car dealer's lots.

    ... yes consumer spending did increase in the first quarter, buoyed by both the new 'subprime' auto loan debt as well as increasing credit card debt. Whether increased spending via increased debt, private or government, constitutes real economic growth or not is another question. And the answer to that question is who will actually pay back that increased debt, ( if anyone ).


    In the 10 years or so that you have published exclusively negative and extremely pessimistic reports in this section predicting impending collapse of both the economy and sometimes the entire society, I and most of the people I am friendly with have been optimistic, happy and have been able to make a pretty fair amount of profit.
    Adjusted for US dollar devaluation, US stock markets have provided zero net increase over the past 10 years. But I'm glad that you and your optimistic happy friends THINK you earned a profit since you are now holding more US dollars than you started with ! The IRS of course taxed your larger number of US dollars as if it were really a profit !!!
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-09-2012 at 04:09 AM.

  12. #12
    Veteran Member
    Joined
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    493
    Thanks
    32
    Thanked 211 Times in 137 Posts

    Default Re: Can the US Economy Recover without a Housing Recovery ? - Yes, BUT ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ I didn't include those snippets for a reason ....

    ... anecdotal evidence can 'say' anything. From my own anecdotal evidence, backed up by several other anecdotes I could point out regarding other girls, 'every' stripper / camgirl can retire before age 40 without ever having to worry about working another day of her life !!! In reality, this might be true 1% of the time !

    ... auto sales surged because US taxpayer subsidized GMAC / Ally Bank began writing 'subprime' auto loans with no cash down payment requirement. Agreed that there is high demand for new autos from Americans with low credit scores and zero down payment money who could not get financed via other means. Of course, the future delinquency rate on these 'subprime' auto loans remains to be seen.

    ... industry data for motor vehicle 'sales' is measured via shipments from factories to dealers, not by sales from dealers to the public. So indeed this figure has risen ... right along with the number of unsold vehicles sitting on car dealer's lots.

    ... yes consumer spending did increase in the first quarter, buoyed by both the new 'subprime' auto loan debt as well as increasing credit card debt. Whether increased spending via increased debt, private or government, constitutes real economic growth or not is another question. And the answer to that question is who will actually pay back that increased debt, ( if anyone ).
    You're arguing out of both sides of your mouth- on one side, you are saying that the consumers aren't buying the cars and they are sitting on lots and on the other you are saying that the reason for the surge is that consumers ARE buying the cars because of low financing options. The bottom line though is people are buying cars as evidenced by the link below, whether they will default at a later date or not is pure supposition from you. Not only is the amount of sales and revenue way up(realistic estimates say 14 million sales) but there is genuine concern about not being able to meet demand:

    "Now with the recent sales surge, hiring has resumed, and “many plants are already on three shifts. I would not be surprised in a year or two that we hear about them turning on plants that have been idled.”
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...TUS_story.html



    Adjusted for US dollar devaluation, US stock markets have provided zero net increase over the past 10 years. But I'm glad that you and your optimistic happy friends THINK you earned a profit since you are now holding more US dollars than you started with ! The IRS of course taxed your larger number of US dollars as if it were really a profit !!!
    Haha, yes I am happy. During that whole time I have been able to easily pay all my bills, put the amount I desire into savings, take all the trips I want, eat out as often as I like, purchase pretty much everything that I desire. If prices go up (whether it's because of declining dollar value or not) I just add some more accounts or create some more income to offset the change. As for paying taxes, I really don't mind. The US portion of my income is made exclusively from people in the US, money that I pay in taxes contributes to that economy and assists my business in operating and receiving future income from clients.

  13. #13
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Can the US Economy Recover without a Housing Recovery ? - Yes, BUT ...

    please don't allow inconvenient facts to get in the way ...


    from ... 150,000+ 1Q 'sales' of new GM vehicles are directly related to 'channel stuffing'

    (snip)The absolutely worst of Detroit is GM with a nearly three month supply. Only consolation: Deadman walking Mitsubishi carries two days more. While days to sell are down industry-wide, inventory is increasing on GM lots: From March to April, it took a week longer to move an already sluggish inventory.

    GM’s lot queens: Escalade EXT (144 days), Yukon (136 days), Yukon XL (133 days), Sierra (132 days), CTS (124 days), all Cadillac cars (123 days), all Buicks (121 days).(snip)





    And concerning the new cars that are actually being sold and not just delivered to dealers' lots ... some 45% of those sales ( and I use the term loosely ) are the direct result of new 'subprime' zero down near zero % 7 year loans guaranteed by US taxpayers !


    (snip)"Remember GMAC? You bailed them out when all their subprime auto and mortgage loans went bad in 2009. They have a brand new business plan. Change your name to Ally Bank and start making as many subprime auto loans as possible. You will be happy to know that according to Experian, 45% of all auto loans being made today are to subprime borrowers.

    What could possibly go wrong?

    In addition, the average loan term has grown to almost 6 years. Executives at Ally Financial said that subprime car lending had become "very attractive" because profit margins on the loans more than cover the cost of expected losses from borrowers who fail to repay what they owe. I'm sure they have everything completely under control. Gina Proia, a company spokeswoman, said the company places "greater emphasis on the higher end of the nonprime spectrum" and only lends to people who show they can pay.

    If you open your paper to the auto section you will see financing offers of $0 down-payment, and 0% interest for 7 years across the board on most models. But why buy, when you can lease a luxury automobile for $300 per month? ute through West Philadelphia. IIt is simply amazing how many vehicles you can "sell" when "credit challenged" Americans can rent them for seven years. I wonder if this explains why I see dozens of $40,000 luxury autos parked in front of $25,000 dilapidated hovels.(snip)

    from

  14. #14
    Veteran Member
    Joined
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    493
    Thanks
    32
    Thanked 211 Times in 137 Posts

    Default Re: Can the US Economy Recover without a Housing Recovery ? - Yes, BUT ...

    ^^^You're grasping at straws.

    GM's sales were down and so their inventory is up. A big part of the reason is because Chrysler's sales were so high.

    "The company (GM) ended April with enough vehicles in its inventory to supply dealers for 79 days. That's more than the 60 days considered optimal."

    "Chrysler had enough cars and trucks to supply its dealers for 59 days. That's just below what's considered optimal."

    "Chrysler's sales rise is far better than the increase expected for the rest of the auto industry. The company's top-selling Ram pickup saw sales jump 19 percent last month. Chrysler also was helped at the smaller end of the lineup. It sold more than 3,800 Fiat 500 mini-cars, four times the sales from a year earlier."

    http://www.dailyfinance.com/article/...-april/697388/

    In addition, the cars all get sold and the economy gets stimulated, it's just a question of how long it takes to move them off the lots. Regardless of anything you mention, its been a huge year for the auto-industry, lots of jobs and economic stimulation has been provided- and the risky loans to credit unworthy people you seem to imply are responsible for ALL the positive news is in fact a relatively small factor.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 09-14-2010, 10:02 PM
  2. Top 10 Ways to Recover from a Break-Up
    By eagle2 in forum Life Support
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-26-2010, 04:04 PM
  3. Economy/housing mrkt/jobs in Dallas, Tx?
    By BIGJosh in forum Dollar Den
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 05-23-2009, 04:13 AM
  4. NY Times - When Will Earnings Recover ?
    By Melonie in forum Dollar Den
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-17-2008, 08:03 AM
  5. Recover PC Without Windows help please
    By short skirts in forum The Lounge
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-11-2007, 08:22 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •