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Thread: McJobless !

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    Default McJobless !

    interesting new 'take' courtesy of the Washington Post - from

    (snip)"Did somebody say McJobless?

    The American job market is no place for students as the number of employed high schoolers has hit its lowest level in more than 20 years, according to new figures from the National Center for Education Statistics.

    In 1990, 32 percent of high school students held jobs, versus just 16 percent now. Blame their elders.

    Sectors that traditionally have offered teens their first paying gig — fast-food chains, movie theaters, malls and big-box retailers — have now become the last resorts for out-of-work college graduates or older Americans forced back into the labor force out of sheer financial necessity. The resulting squeeze has left students on the outside looking in.

    “By definition, teenage workers get the jobs that are left over,” said Charles Hirschman, a sociology professor at the University of Washington who has studied and written about student employment. “When you can’t find someone else to bag your groceries or work construction, often teenagers are the labor force you can count on to pick up that slack for a low wage. But now, with the recession, everybody has moved down. Those jobs aren’t going to teenagers.”

    The decline began in the 1990s, but accelerated in the past decade. It has grown worse since the dawn of the Great Recession, analysts say.

    Local McDonald’s managers, for example, are no longer forced to accept young workers who can show up after class. They now have the option to hire older employees with more experience and, in many cases, much more education.

    “They think, ‘I can hire this old guy instead. He already knows how to work, so we don’t need to teach him,’ ” said Andrew Sum, director of Northeastern University's Center for Labor Market Studies. “It’s a real weakness in our labor market right now.
    We’re going to need a big increase in demand to turn this around in the short run.”

    The crunch is also hitting college students. In 2000, 52 percent of full-time college students worked. That number has now fallen to 40 percent, the National Center for Education Statistics reports.

    Some may interpret the NCES numbers as a sign that today’s generation of young people simply has grown lazier, but analysts say that’s not necessarily the case. It’s their opportunity to work, not their desire, that has fallen off a cliff.

    “Adolescents, like everybody else, like to spend money. If they have opportunities to work, even if it’s at a local fast-food place, a lot of students would still do that so they can afford to buy new music and new clothes,” Mr. Hirschman said.

    For high schoolers, the dream of going to college also plays a role in low employment figures, according to specialists. Their desire to get straight A’s and attend a prestigious university can lead them to spend all their time studying. Parents often encourage that type of laserlike focus on studies at the expense of getting that first job.

    “Everybody wants to do it. Every positive thing in life is highly correlated with education. Most adolescents know that, and most parents know that,” Mr. Hirschman said.

    In the long run, the trend could produce more and more young adults who lack the basic skills, such as how to interact with a customer, gained while working early in life. The longer a young person goes without a job, Mr. Sum said, the less attractive he or she looks to employers.

    “There’s only one way you can learn how to work — you’ve got to work,” he said."(snip)


    Point #1 - high school / college students who focus all of their attentions on studying may be working against their own interests regarding their 'appeal' to a future employer

    Point #2 - besides employers being able to hire 'experienced' retirees ( versus inexperienced high school graduates or even college graduates ) for low paying positions, those same employers save money due to the fact that retiree medical benefits are paid by Medicare. This will become even more of an issue in the near future as the result of National Health Care IRS 'fines' being imposed on employers who do not provide employee health insurance coverage ( which exempts 'retired' employees whose health insurance is already covered by Medicare ).
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-29-2012 at 11:54 AM.

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    Default Re: McJobless !

    Damn those weasely corporations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay12 View Post
    ^What Sophia said.
    Quote Originally Posted by yoda57us View Post
    I wish there was an "auto-like" setting that I could just have applied to all of your posts Sophia....

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    Senior Member Think!'s Avatar
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    Default Re: McJobless !

    I suggest we continue to outsource more manufacturing and high-tech jobs abroad like we have in the past. Then it makes you wonder why there are so many fewer jobs out there in an over-saturated job market with college graduates. There used to be a time when you could support a family of four with a high school diploma. Those days are gone. Now, you would be lucky if you are hired with a Masters degree alone.
    Desire is not what you want, but what you imagine--Paulo Coehlo.

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    Default Re: McJobless !

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Point #1 - high school / college students who focus all of their attentions on studying may be working against their own interests regarding their 'appeal' to a future employer

    Point #2 - besides employers being able to hire 'experienced' retirees ( versus inexperienced high school graduates or even college graduates ) for low paying positions, those same employers save money due to the fact that retiree medical benefits are paid by Medicare. This will become even more of an issue in the near future as the result of National Health Care IRS 'fines' being imposed on employers who do not provide employee health insurance coverage ( which exempts 'retired' employees whose health insurance is already covered by Medicare ).

    Point #1 is kind of convoluted. The appeal of a job candidate, and whether or not they went to college, depends on the specific job they are seeking. Many of the lucrative jobs the USA are squarely in the white-collar sector.

    Point #2 is perplexing... hiring senior citizens is beneficial to *company owners and corporations* since they needn't shoulder the burden of providing healthcare. That's just shady. They also don’t have to provide as much (if any) training… but that begs the question, why are seniors working these jobs to begin with? What ever happened to nest eggs, retirements, pensions, etc? Oh yeah… that wacky recession stuff.

    Perhaps the lack of jobs and weasel-like-machinations of companies (who seek to hire seniors vs. college students in order to escape providing healthcare) have contributed to the recent decline in the number of college kids w/ jobs. Rather than the other way around…

    I don’t think that college students necessarily choose to forego working whilst at school.
    Companies are opting to hire candidates who are “cheaper” in terms of benefits, time invested for training, etc. which is a practice that keeps high school grads and college students out… but not by the college kid's choice.


    ***To summarize:
    It's not that students don't want to work. It is more likely that companies aren't hiring students.


    Or at least that's what I gleaned from the article.
    Last edited by Sophia_Starina; 05-30-2012 at 11:07 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay12 View Post
    ^What Sophia said.
    Quote Originally Posted by yoda57us View Post
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    Senior Member Think!'s Avatar
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    Default Re: McJobless !

    Article in the New York Times (5-30-12)

    College Gap Grows, Leaving Manufacturing Cities Behind

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/31/us...ft-behind.html
    Last edited by Think!; 05-31-2012 at 09:44 AM.
    Desire is not what you want, but what you imagine--Paulo Coehlo.

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    Default Re: McJobless !

    ***To summarize: It's not that students don't want to work. It is more likely that companies aren't hiring students.
    Like all private sector endeavors, the goal of any business owner is to achieve maximum 'bang for the buck' where labor is concerned. In the past ( through 2007 anyhow ), maximum 'bang for the buck' could be achieved by paying a high school or college student a $5.15 per hour minimum wage plus reasonable employer premiums for unemployment and disability insurance, plus employer SSI tax ... with no mandate to provide health care benefits. If the employer had say a $30 per hour total labor budget in order to operate his business at a profit, that employer could hire at least four workers while holding the total labor cost to the $30 an hour budget. Within a matter of months, in many states, that same employer now faces an $8 per hour minimum wage, greatly increased premiums for unemployment and disability insurance, and the same employer SSI tax rate ... PLUS a $2000 per year = about $1 per hour new 'tax' if the employer fails to provide employee health care benefits. This means that the same employer will run over his $30 per hour labor budget while employing just three workers instead of four. In order to try and get equal productivity out of three workers versus four, those three workers need to be more effective at doing the job. This means a short learning curve, a decent work ethic etc. By hiring retirees, the learning curve is shortened, a decent work ethic is probable, and the employer can also shave $3 per hour in employee health care 'tax' off the hourly labor budget.

    Stated simply, recent gov't mandates in regard to higher minimum wage rates, recent gov't price increases for unemployment and disability insurance, and the addition of a new 'tax' on employers who do not / cannot afford to provide employee health insurance, have created a strong incentive for employers NOT to hire high school / college students ! Yet another incidence of the law of unintended consequences !

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    Default Re: McJobless !

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    For high schoolers, the dream of going to college also plays a role in low employment figures, according to specialists. Their desire to get straight A’s and attend a prestigious university can lead them to spend all their time studying. Parents often encourage that type of laserlike focus on studies at the expense of getting that first job.
    Y'know, back when I was a college-bound lad, having had a job while in HS was one of those things that would be considered a plus for an applicant, and schools still pretended to seek a well-rounded student who "had a life". Of course at the time a degree was a degree and for most people graduating from State U. was plenty good enough. But since then, that went by the wayside, people began demanding that only the Ivies or equivalent are acceptable and it became a hypercompetitive market to get into the Topmost Elite programs so you have to be in an elite preschool by the time you are 3 and by the time you're 17 not only have a perfect 4.0 and letters in two sports but have three patents and been published in a national magazine.

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    Default Re: McJobless !

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Like all private sector endeavors, the goal of any business owner is to achieve maximum 'bang for the buck' where labor is concerned. In the past ( through 2007 anyhow ), maximum 'bang for the buck' could be achieved by paying a high school or college student a $5.15 per hour minimum wage plus reasonable employer premiums for unemployment and disability insurance, plus employer SSI tax ... with no mandate to provide health care benefits. If the employer had say a $30 per hour total labor budget in order to operate his business at a profit, that employer could hire at least four workers while holding the total labor cost to the $30 an hour budget. Within a matter of months, in many states, that same employer now faces an $8 per hour minimum wage, greatly increased premiums for unemployment and disability insurance, and the same employer SSI tax rate ... PLUS a $2000 per year = about $1 per hour new 'tax' if the employer fails to provide employee health care benefits. This means that the same employer will run over his $30 per hour labor budget while employing just three workers instead of four. In order to try and get equal productivity out of three workers versus four, those three workers need to be more effective at doing the job. This means a short learning curve, a decent work ethic etc. By hiring retirees, the learning curve is shortened, a decent work ethic is probable, and the employer can also shave $3 per hour in employee health care 'tax' off the hourly labor budget.

    Stated simply, recent gov't mandates in regard to higher minimum wage rates, recent gov't price increases for unemployment and disability insurance, and the addition of a new 'tax' on employers who do not / cannot afford to provide employee health insurance, have created a strong incentive for employers NOT to hire high school / college students ! Yet another incidence of the law of unintended consequences !
    I understand that.
    I don’t understand what this has to do with higher education apart from highlighting the vulture-like mentality of businesses to discriminate against employees who are in school.

    Employers are cherry-picking the “cheapest” workers…. The employers save money. Woohoo. But hiring students should provide the best learning curve… because a students profession IS LEARNING.

    Imagine if no students were hired, (lack of experience doesn’t bode well on a resume), after the senior citizens begin to pass on, the baby-boomers will take their place when they come of age. After that the adults will replace the boomers once they get too old or ill to work. The students (now adults) over the course of that hypothetical 25 year period will still lack experience when compared to previous generations. Ideas will stagnate, progress will slow, and America’s *everything* will lag behind in innovation… probably resulting in another recession/depression-clusterfuck.

    Of course, the company owners and corporations will be sitting pretty chuckling to themselves about the money their business has made… for them… and how they weaseled to make a few more dollars by employing people who’s healthcare is provided by Uncle Sam… not their Uncle Sam… because those convenient tax loopholes… you know the ones that you can drive a MACK TRUCK through… are designed to protect big businesses and unduly burden middle class folks. So who the heck cares! Fiddle away while Rome burns… perhaps those guys can buy a nice yacht and sail away to Millionaire Island if things in the USA don’t work out.

    *rant over*

    Students can’t get jobs. People, of any age that want jobs can’t get jobs, the people with jobs are a bargain for the employer… and even then, the minimum wages and benefits are mediocre at best.

    When the government steps in and tries to mitigate those predatory practices, employers run around as if the sky is on fire, screaming how their handsome profits are being attacked.

    Trickle down economics is BS. People need jobs. Those jobs need to provide a decent wage.

    People need healthcare… people need decent paychecks… if an employer is unwilling to provide something so necessary, they need to be taxed so that the government can provide healthcare/financial support for the people who can’t get it.

    Students can’t get jobs because the economy is fucked-up-beyond-all-recognition. Employers are penny-pinching sociopaths who have only their own interests at heart. (according to the articles)

    It has nothing to do with college!!! Students spend all of their time studying because they can’t get hired for anything else.

    Who cares how much a student “appeals” to an employer or a company??? Experience doesn’t have an appeal, innovative/creative thinking doesn’t have an appeal, a fresh injection of varied, vanguard concepts doesn’t have any appeal!!!


    A potential employees “appeal” stems from only one thing…. The bargain that the employer gets: whether it be by denying benefits or paying less.

    And that, in my humble opinion, is fucked up and short-sighted.
    Last edited by Sophia_Starina; 05-31-2012 at 10:17 AM.
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    Default Re: McJobless !

    I just want to add that this situation is scary and incredibly discouraging.

    The American goose has been laying golden eggs for generations... now rampant greed is slowly and torturously killing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay12 View Post
    ^What Sophia said.
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    Default Re: McJobless !

    ^^^ I'll agree that America's former 'golden goose' may indeed be ( partially ) cooked. However, I can't agree with an assessment that corporate 'greed' is the primary cause. Corporations were just as 'greedy' over the course of the past 100 years as they supposedly are today, yet US economic growth and the availability of US jobs weren't similarly terrible. Well, with one exception ... the FDR era 1930's 'great depression'.


    I don’t understand what this has to do with higher education apart from highlighting the vulture-like mentality of businesses to discriminate against employees who are in school.
    What this has to do with education is that employers measure real world productivity versus the cost of labor necessary to provide that productivity. In many cases today, holding a degree ... and especially a degree from a community college / state college ... bears little real world correlation to that college graduate's ability to be productive when performing the job the employer requires. Again going back to the number crunching, back in 2007 when employers were able to pay less productive employees $5.15 an hour plus perhaps another $2 worth of mandated benefit costs and employer taxes, employers were able to hire, train, and wait out the learning curve for new employees who weren't immediately highly productive. By the first of next year, those employers will potentially face having to pay an $8.00 per hour minimum wage plus another $3 worth of mandated benefit costs and employer taxes, PLUS an additional $1 worth of national health care 'tax'. If a new graduate that totally lacks experience was able to produce $7.50 per hour worth of 'added value' for the employer, back in 2007 this still represented a small net gain for the employer. By the first of next year, the same $7.50 per hour worth of 'added value' will cause the employer to experience a $3.50 per hour LOSS. Businesses don't survive by 'eating' such losses. Thus if gov't mandates now force employers to take a 'loss' on every young and inexperienced new employee they hire, it's simple logic that the employers won't be hiring many young and inexperienced new employees.


    People need jobs. Those jobs need to provide a decent wage.
    to play devil's advocate, 'sez who' ? If a computer programmer in India is willing to work for $20,000 per year, why is a US computer programmer 'entitled' to be paid $40,000 for performing the same job = creating the same amount of 'added value' ? If an engineer in China is willing to work for $25,000 per year, why is a US engineer 'entitled' to be paid $50,000 for performing the same job = creating the same amount of 'added value' ? At the other end of the spectrum, if an unskilled worker in China is willing to work for $2.50 per hour, why is a US unskilled worker 'entitled' to be paid $8.00 per hour for performing the same job = creating the same amount of 'added value' ?
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-31-2012 at 02:05 PM.

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    Default Re: McJobless !

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ I'll agree that America's former 'golden goose' may indeed be ( partially ) cooked. However, I can't agree with an assessment that corporate 'greed' is the primary cause. Corporations were just as 'greedy' over the course of the past 100 years as they supposedly are today, yet US economic growth and the availability of US jobs weren't similarly terrible. Well, with one exception ... the FDR era 1930's 'great depression'.

    yes^

    there are lots of reasons for this.

    A big one is the need for american companies to remain competitive. Manufacturing jobs are sent overseas because U.S. labor costs can be around 20 times more expensive than than overseas(its about to get worse once the healthcare bill takes effect)

    So let me ask a question. Would all of you buy a $1,700 smart phone or a $3,900 pc that was completely made in the U.S by U.S workers, when one of the same quality was available at the current prices?

    I wouldnt either.

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    Default Re: McJobless !

    I feel as though I'm going around in circles.

    There is a problem...

    First, I read this statement:


    High school / college students who focus all of their attentions on studying may be working against their own interests regarding their 'appeal' to a future employer.


    In the long run, the trend could produce more and more young adults who lack the basic skills, such as how to interact with a customer, gained while working early in life. The longer a young person goes without a job, Mr. Sum said, the less attractive he or she looks to employers.

    “There’s only one way you can learn how to work — you’ve got to work,” he said."


    And then I read this statement :


    Thus if gov't mandates now force employers to take a 'loss' on every young and inexperienced new employee they hire, it's simple logic that the employers won't be hiring many young and inexperienced new employees.


    Employers don't want to hire students for all the reasons you mentioned above... fine.

    However, employers magically advocate that students should get work experience.

    Does anyone else see a problem with that???
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay12 View Post
    ^What Sophia said.
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    Default Re: McJobless !

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    What this has to do with education is that employers measure real world productivity versus the cost of labor necessary to provide that productivity. In many cases today, holding a degree ... and especially a degree from a community college / state college ... bears little real world correlation to that college graduate's ability to be productive when performing the job the employer requires.
    As Lemiwinks31 mentioned, many of the manufacturing jobs have been shipped overseas and outsourced.

    The jobs that remain available are in fields that require further educations, certifications, and degrees.

    I mean, sure a sociology degree may not help an employee meet their daily quota on the widget assembly line. But we're not even really talking about that because the widget assembly line is located overseas.


    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    By the first of next year, those employers will potentially face having to pay an $8.00 per hour minimum wage.
    Which seems fair. Since a $5.15 wage full-time only pays $10,712 per year. Is that reasonable--- to live on--- anywhere in America???

    Granted, $8.00 per hour isn't exactly amazing either.... but it's moving in the right direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    to play devil's advocate, 'sez who' ? If a computer programmer in India is willing to work for $20,000 per year, why is a US computer programmer 'entitled' to be paid $40,000 for performing the same job = creating the same amount of 'added value' ? If an engineer in China is willing to work for $25,000 per year, why is a US engineer 'entitled' to be paid $50,000 for performing the same job = creating the same amount of 'added value' ? At the other end of the spectrum, if an unskilled worker in China is willing to work for $2.50 per hour, why is a US unskilled worker 'entitled' to be paid $8.00 per hour for performing the same job = creating the same amount of 'added value' ?
    Hehehe. I can so imagine you saying "sez who?" lol... that made me smile.

    But since you note that even the white collar jobs are being outsourced what on earth are we (Americans with college educations, and perhaps limited work experience) to do about it?

    Employers don't want to hire students/grads. Many people can't get work due to outsourcing. Experience is difficult to get because employers aren't hiring. The cost of living is steadily increasing, the cost of goods, subway fares, gasoline, rent is steadily climbing... etc.

    If people are unemployed... if people are being paid very little and being told that a bird in the hand is worth more than the birds in the bush ("at least you have a job, regardless of how little it pays")... then WHO CARES if a smartphone costs $1,700 and a computer costs $3,900, people can't afford the $800 computer, the $200 smartphone or whatever because without work, they have no income anyway. People can't even afford the cheap stuff now.

    I fear that this is where things are headed ^^^


    If you have a spare moment please watch this short talk by Nick Hanauer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=bBx2Y5HhplI
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay12 View Post
    ^What Sophia said.
    Quote Originally Posted by yoda57us View Post
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    Default Re: McJobless !

    Quote Originally Posted by lemiwinks31 View Post
    yes^

    there are lots of reasons for this.

    A big one is the need for american companies to remain competitive. Manufacturing jobs are sent overseas because U.S. labor costs can be around 20 times more expensive than than overseas(its about to get worse once the healthcare bill takes effect)

    So let me ask a question. Would all of you buy a $1,700 smart phone or a $3,900 pc that was completely made in the U.S by U.S workers, when one of the same quality was available at the current prices?

    I wouldnt either.
    The price of the supposedly free smartphones is part of the two-year contract consumers sign with a phone carrier. For example, the actual price consumers pay for their $100-$300 smartphone when they sign a contract is somewhere upwards of $700. Phone companies want consumers to believe that they are offering them a great deal, but they are not. Consumers still pay the full price of the phone by the end of their two-year contract.

    For corporations, savings in labor costs abroad translates into profits. Companies can remain profitable by hiring domestic labor force, but choose not to because they can make more profits abroad by relying on cheap labor. Of course, like with every new technology, profitability declines over time as more and more companies enter the market. Consider Apple's ipad. Following Apple's success, Samsung, HP and Amazon attempted to capture part of the touch screen computer market, but have not succeeded in competing with Apple.

    Overseas, U.S. companies pay lower wages and adhere to fewer labor laws. They pay little or no health or retirement benefits to workers. And, corporations don't need to negotiate contracts with labor unions because there are very few organized labor unions. A prime example is Apple's relationship with Foxconn in China.

    I am not certain that if those phones were manufactured in the U.S. they would end up costing the consumer $1700. The price will remain the same. The only difference would be that corporations such as Apple would make less profits on each phone. Of course, corporations want consumers to believe the reason they assemble their products abroad is to make them more affordable for the consumer in the domestic market. For sure, there is competition, but that only explains part of the reason why companies move abroad. If competition was fierce as some would like us to believe, then what accounts for the record-breaking profits for companies like Apple that has increasingly relied on cheap, non-unionized labor?
    Last edited by Think!; 06-01-2012 at 01:25 PM.
    Desire is not what you want, but what you imagine--Paulo Coehlo.

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    Default Re: McJobless !

    Sophia, even people with degrees and experience are having a hard time finding jobs. I met a Ph.D scientist (I think it was in something like physicist)who has been unemployed 2 years. I know teachers and lawyers unemployed. What is going to happen (it's already happening)is we are going to become a nation with very poor and very rich and it will not matter whether you have a degree or not because there won't be jobs in most cases. The few jobs that can't be outsourced will be given to viased workers.

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    Default Re: McJobless !

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    Sophia, even people with degrees and experience are having a hard time finding jobs. I met a Ph.D scientist (I think it was in something like physicist)who has been unemployed 2 years. I know teachers and lawyers unemployed. What is going to happen (it's already happening)is we are going to become a nation with very poor and very rich and it will not matter whether you have a degree or not because there won't be jobs in most cases. The few jobs that can't be outsourced will be given to viased workers.
    That is very true.

    My question to Melonie is: what's the end game? Seriously? Is there a sensible solution or are Americans supposed to lay down and accept the inevitable?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay12 View Post
    ^What Sophia said.
    Quote Originally Posted by yoda57us View Post
    I wish there was an "auto-like" setting that I could just have applied to all of your posts Sophia....

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    Default Re: McJobless !

    I wish I knew, though I think things will turn eventually. That is wishful thinking but we are seeing it now where people can't afford to spend money and some companies are bringing back jobs. If it was up to me I would tax heavily all those companies that outsource (to replace all the tax money we are losing by less people working)and giving companies tax breaks to stay here in the USA.

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    Default Re: McJobless !

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    If it was up to me I would tax heavily all those companies that outsource (to replace all the tax money we are losing by less people working)and giving companies tax breaks to stay here in the USA.
    I agree 100%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sophia_Starina View Post
    People need healthcare… people need decent paychecks… if an employer is unwilling to provide something so necessary, they need to be taxed so that the government can provide healthcare/financial support for the people who can’t get it.
    American workers are the country's greatest resource. And so many are unemployed or underemployed. It's sad.

    When I came to the USA. I was sold on the American Dream. Now it's more of an American Nightmare.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay12 View Post
    ^What Sophia said.
    Quote Originally Posted by yoda57us View Post
    I wish there was an "auto-like" setting that I could just have applied to all of your posts Sophia....

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    Default Re: McJobless !

    It really is a nightmare now because of so many unemployed. It used to be that if you were unemployed you were unskilled, unambitious, etc. Now though this isn't the case, many people with degrees and experience (or maybe one of them)are unemployed and this is going to have a lasting effect. Contrary to popular belief not all of them are on assistance because in many states (Illinois is one)it's hard to get assistance unless you have kids and are unmarried, disabled (and they are strict on what is disabled now)or elderly. Most of those who are unemployed now do not fit into these categories.

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    Default Re: McJobless !

    Quote Originally Posted by Sophia_Starina View Post
    That is very true.

    My question to Melonie is: what's the end game? Seriously? Is there a sensible solution or are Americans supposed to lay down and accept the inevitable?
    There is no end in sight unless there is corporate accountability, regulation of the markets and laws that would prevent outsourcing, downsizing, and corporate mergers. I don't think people are accepting the current social and economic paradigm. Case in point was the wave of anti-Wall Street movement that swept across the globe in October 2011, high school and college student protests in Chile as a response to the privatization of education, and the recent protests in Greece as a reaction to the economic downturn the country experienced last year. When and how these protests will develop into sustained social and political movements is still up for debate.
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    Default Re: McJobless !

    Quote Originally Posted by Sophia_Starina View Post
    As Lemiwinks31 mentioned, many of the manufacturing jobs have been shipped overseas and outsourced.

    The jobs that remain available are in fields that require further educations, certifications, and degrees.

    I mean, sure a sociology degree may not help an employee meet their daily quota on the widget assembly line. But we're not even really talking about that because the widget assembly line is located overseas.
    The New York Times has a four minute animated video called 'The iphone Economy' which summarizes the points you make.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-aHdFdOetw
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    Default Re: McJobless !

    The jobs that remain available are in fields that require further educations, certifications, and degrees.
    True on the surface. However, it's important to note that a large percentage of these jobs requiring higher education credentials are GOVERNMENT FUNDED - directly or indirectly. Obvious examples are teachers, doctors, nurses, engineers etc. whose salaries are, for the most part, paid for via moneys that the gov't borrowed from China and in turn spent on medicaid / medicare / gov't run health care facilities, or by moneys that the gov't borrowed from China and 'loaned' to college students ( with some real doubt as to whether said loans will ever be paid off ), or by moneys that the gov't borrowed from China and in turn 'loaned' to green energy companies ( with more than some real doubt whether said loans will ever be paid off ). Lately, the number of such positions is being reduced ... because US states cannot 'print' money, must balance their budgets, are experiencing major drops in tax revenues collected, and simply can't afford to keep the same number of 'employees' on the payroll, college degrees as well as unskilled workers - because a lack of ongoing gov't subsidies ( a.k.a. gov't guaranteed loans ) is causing a huge number of green energy companies to go bankrupt, etc.

    As the NY Times video skated around, 'service' jobs are actually dependent on 'skimming' wealth that others have created via the production of real 'added value'. This can be direct, but is increasingly indirect ( with the gov't as intermediary ), collecting tax revenues from the producers of real 'added value' and redistributing it to gov't employees, employees of gov't subsidized companies, to workers in businesses which primarily depend on gov't 'reimbursement' for services rendered, etc.


    Since a $5.15 wage full-time only pays $10,712 per year. Is that reasonable--- to live on--- anywhere in America???
    Your comment assumes that Americans are somehow 'entitled' to a higher standard of living than their skills and productivity can actually provide for them relative to a globalized economy. From the standpoint of Chinese / Indian / Vietnamese semi-skilled workers earning $2 an hour, an $8 an hour minimum pay rate for US unskilled workers is indeed unreasonable. As to $5.15 an hour, that's still more than 2.5 times higher than competing unskilled global workers. Of course the $8 per hour can be MADE reasonable by another means ... by devaluing the US dollar to the point where gasoline costs $10+ per gallon, where a loaf of bread costs $5, where the least expensive new car costs $40,000, where average monthly apartment rents are $1500 etc.


    My question to Melonie is: what's the end game? Seriously? Is there a sensible solution or are Americans supposed to lay down and accept the inevitable?
    If by a 'sensible solution' you mean some option that would restore plentiful US jobs at pay rates which are capable of sustaining the standard of living that Americans have taken for granted for the past 60 years, I can only think of one viable option. World War Three. This option would A. permanently remove tens of millions of workers of all skill levels from the global work force ( with the American work force remaining relatively unaffected ), B. physically destroy the capital equipment / production facilities of many offshore competitors ( leaving America as the only major country with intact ability to manufacture items for export ), C. force Americans to 'save' money ( by restricting the production of imported and domestic consumer items, in favor of war material to the point that there will be little available for American consumers to spend money on ), etc., and D. leave the rest of the world in a state so insecure that the world's investment capital will gravitate back to the USA as the only remaining major 'safe haven'. This is how America was able to turn the 1930's depression into 30 or so years of productivity based prosperity, plus another 30 years or so of debt based prosperity collateralized by the production of the previous 30 years.

    In the absence of ( again ) 'destroying the competition', and with the collateral for additional debt based spending now depleted, it will arguably become necessary for ALL countries gov'ts and citizens to return to a 'cash based' standard of living ... where the citizens' actual standard of living once again becomes commeasurate with their actual ability to produce 'added value' in a globalized economy, and where the gov'ts are forced to limit current year spending to current year tax revenue receipts. Where the US is concerned, with 49% of Americans not actually paying income taxes, and with a similar number of Americans now collecting a gov't check from one gov't agency or another, this will be EXTREMELY unpopular here as it is already unpopular in Greece, Spain etc.

    There is also a potential third option, which is likely to be even more unpopular. Return US labor costs closer to 'world market' levels by making the entire country 'right to work' and reducing / abolishing the minimum wage. Return US production costs nearer to 'world market' levels by easing environmental laws, restoring the widespread use of cheap coal fired electricity, easing worker safety regulations, reducing gov't mandated employee benefits etc. to the point where they are only incrementally more expensive than offshore alternatives. Allow the US gov't to add royalty and export revenues to tax revenues, via increasing production of 'world market' commodities available on US gov't owned land ( oil, gas, minerals etc. ).

    Since none of these options seems the least bit probable, that leaves Americans 'accepting the inevitable'. However, it is doubtful that too many Americans will take this 'lying down'. It would also appear that the US gov't is already preparing to deal with this possibility ... see
    Last edited by Melonie; 06-01-2012 at 08:06 PM.

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    Default Re: McJobless !

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Your comment assumes that Americans are somehow 'entitled' to a higher standard of living than their skills and productivity can actually provide for them relative to a globalized economy. From the standpoint of Chinese / Indian / Vietnamese semi-skilled workers earning $2 an hour, an $8 an hour minimum pay rate for US unskilled workers is indeed unreasonable. As to $5.15 an hour, that's still more than 2.5 times higher than competing unskilled global workers. Of course the $8 per hour can be MADE reasonable by another means ... by devaluing the US dollar to the point where gasoline costs $10+ per gallon, where a loaf of bread costs $5, where the least expensive new car costs $40,000, where average monthly apartment rents are $1500 etc.
    First, did you mean to say from the standpoint of corporations $8 an hour seems unreasonable for U.S. semi-skilled workers compared to workers overseas who earn $2 an hour? Second, the other argument seems somewhat inaccurate. This is an argument that mainstream economists make. That U.S. corporations must outsource manufacturing jobs abroad to make consumer products more affordable in the domestic market in part due to fierce competition among multinational corporations otherwise consumers would be paying two or three times more for the same products manufactured in the homeland. But that is far from the truth. If that was the case, then why are large corporations reporting record high profits in recent years?
    Last edited by Think!; 06-02-2012 at 03:57 PM.
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    Default Re: McJobless !

    did you mean to say from the standpoint of corporations $8 an hour seems unreasonable for U.S. semi-skilled workers compared to workers overseas who earn $2 an hour?
    That's what most CFO's would tell you !!! That's also the reason that many US corporations whose business model doesn't allow for outsourcing are instead investing in automatic checkout equipment, automatic vegetable harvesting equipment, turn on a dime lawnmowers etc. in order to reduce their need for ( near ) minimum wage US labor. But once the investment is made, the need for US minimum wage labor is permanently eliminated !!!


    If that was the case, then why are large corporations reporting record high profits in recent years?
    Because the majority of those profits are actually being earned by A. making products at lower cost in Asia, plus B. selling those products at a high profit percentage in Asia and Europe. US markets comprise an ever smaller share of the profits of most large multinational corporations.

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    Default Re: McJobless !

    Sorry ya'll.

    I am officially lost.

    The thread starts off with an article about how employers prefer to hire workers with experience rather than education. Then it becomes clear that employers are hiring older people at minimal wages in order to save time on training and save money on benefits. The contradiction is glaring; younger people aren't being hired... so the whole experience argument flies out the window. Then things evolve towards talking about how the minimum wage is too high, why outsourcing rules, World War III, revolution, and FEMA camps (WTF?).

    At the end of the day.... what.... is.... the.... point....??? Also, what are we talking about? Is it about education, is it about globalization, is it about the impending zombie apocalypse? I can't tell if it is fear-mongering, Schadenfreude, or WhatTheHellThisIs.


    Please don't take it the wrong way. But I have no idea what the purpose of this thread is/was. I have enjoyed discussing this stuff. I feel like I learned some interesting info/points-of-view... I just don't know whether to be scared, sad, or suicidal. It just seems like a massive pile of BAD NEWS with no possibility of a happy outcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay12 View Post
    ^What Sophia said.
    Quote Originally Posted by yoda57us View Post
    I wish there was an "auto-like" setting that I could just have applied to all of your posts Sophia....

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