Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 29

Thread: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

  1. #1
    God/dess
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,964
    Thanks
    6,155
    Thanked 10,183 Times in 4,602 Posts

    Default Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    Good riddance, Eduardo.

    Facebook co-founder Eduardo Saverin drew public ire last month following the revelation that he had renounced his U.S. citizenship, a move widely seen as a tax dodge. But thousands of wealthy foreigners are lining up to replace him, making investments here and putting themselves on a path to citizenship in the process.

    The State Department expects to issue over 6,000 "investor visas" in the current fiscal year, which would be an all-time record. Other countries, meanwhile, are following the U.S.'s lead, keen to spur growth in lean economic times.

    Read more:

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/citize...092400861.html

    According to the article above, last year, 70 percent of the investor visas issued last year were to Chinese. Apparently, they prefer to invest in a business in the U.S. rather than China, with its cheap labor and "cheap" electricity from high-polluting coal-powered plants.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to eagle2 For This Useful Post:


  3. #2
    Banned ArmySGT.'s Avatar
    Joined
    May 2005
    Location
    SW Counter Troll HQ
    Posts
    5,582
    Thanks
    1,589
    Thanked 1,674 Times in 1,043 Posts
    Blog Entries
    13
    My Mood
    Amused

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    Or they are just running away from Communist China as the penalty for embezzlement is death.

  4. #3
    Veteran Member
    Joined
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    493
    Thanks
    32
    Thanked 211 Times in 137 Posts

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    Or they are just running away from Communist China as the penalty for embezzlement is death.
    Eagle, you know better than to try and post a positive story here.

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to jimboe7373 For This Useful Post:


  6. #4
    God/dess rickdugan's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2010
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    4,570
    Thanks
    4,406
    Thanked 7,481 Times in 2,715 Posts
    My Mood
    Amused

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
    Or they are just running away from Communist China as the penalty for embezzlement is death.
    Yup. Or maybe they would like to have more than one child, or would like to live in a place where personal property rights are actually protected, or would like to be able to participate in the political process without fear of imprisonment, or live in a place where they may express ideas freely and view/listen to what they choose, or...

  7. #5
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    Yup. Or maybe they would like to have more than one child, or would like to live in a place where personal property rights are actually protected, or would like to be able to participate in the political process without fear of imprisonment, or live in a place where they may express ideas freely and view/listen to what they choose, or...
    Or live some place where the air is safe to breath.

  8. #6
    God/dess
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,964
    Thanks
    6,155
    Thanked 10,183 Times in 4,602 Posts

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    That is my point. That there are other factors besides how cheap labor is, and how few environmental regulations there are, in deciding where to start/invest in a business.

  9. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to eagle2 For This Useful Post:


  10. #7
    God/dess whirlerz's Avatar
    Joined
    May 2004
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    27,134
    Thanks
    55,898
    Thanked 26,028 Times in 13,271 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    My Mood
    Aggressive

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    I LUV Sargey!

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to whirlerz For This Useful Post:


  12. #8
    God/dess rickdugan's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2010
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    4,570
    Thanks
    4,406
    Thanked 7,481 Times in 2,715 Posts
    My Mood
    Amused

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    That is my point. That there are other factors besides how cheap labor is, and how few environmental regulations there are, in deciding where to start/invest in a business.
    I'm not sure that anyone argued otherwise. Keep in mind, though, that the hurdles for obtaining these investor visas are not exactly sky high. In order to qualify, one must invest $500,000 to 1 million (depending upon the area) and commit to creating and maintaining 10 full time jobs, so we might want to temper our expectations about just how indicative this is of the attractiveness of the U.S. as a base of business operations. A wealthy Chinese business owner could meet these requirements simply by opening a sales office in the U.S. while maintaining the bulk of production operations in China.

    I don't say this with any glee. I, like many, miss the days when our economy produced a large number of good paying, blue collar manufacturing jobs. But the reality is that most large scale manufacturers simply cannot afford to produce their goods here anymore. They must compete against other global firms and, in order to do so, they must have labor and other expenses that are in line with their competitors.
    Last edited by rickdugan; 06-13-2012 at 08:42 AM.

  13. #9
    Veteran Member
    Joined
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    493
    Thanks
    32
    Thanked 211 Times in 137 Posts

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    I'm not sure that anyone argued otherwise.
    A lot of people have said otherwise, many people constantly argue that low-price and costs are the only factors that determine where people invest, live, hire and manufacture.

    I don't say this with any glee. I, like many, miss the days when our economy produced a large number of good paying, blue collar manufacturing jobs. But the reality is that most large scale manufacturers simply cannot afford to produce their goods here anymore. They must compete against other global firms and, in order to do so, they must have labor and other expenses that are in line with their competitors.
    I don't know if your keeping up with recent developments, but there is a successful "re-shoring" initiative underway which combined with increased expenses of operating in China and abroad is bringing back a fair amount of formerly US based operations. It is an emerging trend and is showing many indications of large growth.
    Last edited by jimboe7373; 06-13-2012 at 10:28 AM.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to jimboe7373 For This Useful Post:


  15. #10
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    Jimboe is right. If he were wrong then we would no longer make airplanes, cars , tractors , heavy construction equipment and a bunch of other stuff.

    He is partly correct that increased shipping costs have shifted SOME manufacturing from China back to the U.S. The most recent reports have it stalling i.e. growth has stopped.

  16. #11
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    more info from Financial Times ... from


    (snip)"But at the top end of the market, it’s a different story. The 23 per cent jump in sales value, despite flat sales volume, suggests that Chinese buyers have been active at the top end.

    Pamela Liebman, chief executive of The Corcoran Group, a residential real estate brokerage company, says there has been a “huge” influx of wealthy mainland Chinese shopping for high-end properties in New York since the start of the year.

    “It’s extraordinary,” she says. “Five years ago, we never talked about Chinese buyers. We started noticing them 18 months ago but they have only become much more prevalent in the past year.”

    Ms Liebman says she saw “hundreds of millions” of dollars in sales last year to Chinese buyers and the pace has intensified since the start of 2012. “The past quarter has been our best quarter ever in terms of sales to Chinese buyers.”

    Properties that have been snapped up by China’s rich range from $1m apartments to $20m trophy properties. “Buying groups” – group tours of mainland buyers coming to New York to view properties – have become commonplace, says Ms Liebman.

    “It’s a market that we are now targeting heavily,” she says. “We have been recruiting Mandarin-speaking agents and have launched affiliations with brokers in China.”

    Reasons for purchases vary, say those who have dealt with overseas Chinese buyers. Some are buying because they want to emigrate or they have children who will go to school in the US.

    Others buy because the numbers add up: despite its recent dip, the renminbi is still up more than 4 per cent against the US dollar since the start of 2010 while US house prices are still in recovery mode and appear cheap compared with Australia or Canada.

    “When you look at how cheap US real estate is now compared with China, it makes a lot of sense to buy there, especially since you have more rights when you own a property in America,” said a wealthy Chinese investor who has bought several properties in the US but asked not to be named so as not to draw attention to the fact of shifting assets abroad.

    Still others are simply looking for somewhere safe to park their cash.

    In a year that has seen China affected by political infighting at the top and mounting evidence that the economy faces a bigger-than-expected slowdown, there has been a sharp rise in Chinese millionaires seeking to settle in the US or at least to secure residency rights.

    EB-5, a little-known programme that gives a green card to any foreigner who invests at least $500,000 in a business forming 10 or more jobs in the US, received a record 1,675 Chinese applications during the first quarter.

    That compares with 2,408 applications in the whole of last year, 772 in 2010 and 63 in 2006.

    “There is no doubt that the political situation back home is having an impact on how China’s rich are thinking of preserving their wealth,” says Ms Liebman.

    In China, all land is owned by the state and investors can only buy leasing rights of usually up to 70 years, rather than to secure outright ownership."(snip)


    Actually this is a very 'smart' scenario ...

    Chinese businessmen skim a few million dollars from Chinese Gov't / International Corporation funded projects in China

    Now Multi-millionaire Chinese businessmen make a hasty exit along with their families and millions of dollars before Chinese gov't starts asking serious questions

    Millionaire Chinese businessmen buy property in and move to Manhattan, close to investment banking, top tier colleges for their children, and the arguable world's best substitute for Chinese street culture 'ChinaTown'

    Millionaire Chinese businessmen invest in a Green Energy startup company, corn ethanol farming / refining, or other tax preferred business venture in order to secure an 'investor visa' for themselves and their children

    Tax credits generated by the Green Energy startup company, corn ethanol farming / refining, or other tax preferred business venture offset US taxes otherwise due on Chinese businessmen's 'conventional' US investment income

    sounds like a hell of a deal ... for the Chinese businessmen and the Manhattan real estate agents at least !!! Not so sure how good of a deal it is for US taxpayers.

  17. #12
    Veteran Member
    Joined
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    493
    Thanks
    32
    Thanked 211 Times in 137 Posts

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    He is partly correct that increased shipping costs have shifted SOME manufacturing from China back to the U.S. The most recent reports have it stalling i.e. growth has stopped.
    No, you are missing large parts of the equation- it's not just shipping costs that are a factor, Chinese manufacturing salaries have gone up from $.58 in 2001 to $6 in 2012. There have been significant cost increases in other areas of doing business in China as well. Factor in the fact that US workers are 3.4 times more productive than Chinese workers, a lot of US unions scaling back their salary and benefit packages along and creative incentives from the US government and you have a fair amount of companies making the move back and a large number contemplating doing so. All reports below are recent.

    "As Chinese wages rise, US manufacturers head back home"

    http://reshoringmfg.com/as-chinese-w...ience-monitor/


    "It found that 37 percent of all U.S.-based manufacturing executives either plan to or are actively considering moving production from China. That rises to 48 percent among companies with more than $10 billion in revenues, the poll found."
    http://supplychainalmanac.com/2821/r...ategic-option/


    "The Hackett Group's study offered significant hope for the U.S. jobs market. The study found that companies are exploring reshoring as an option for nearly 20 percent of their offshore manufacturing capacity between 2012 and 2014."
    http://www.onlineamd.com/aeosprace-e...ng-053112.aspx

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to jimboe7373 For This Useful Post:


  19. #13
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    ^^^ I'm actually in at least partial agreement with the above

    It found that 37 percent of all U.S.-based manufacturing executives either plan to or are actively considering moving production from China
    undoubtedly this is true. However the quote doesn't address the distinct possibility that the location the former China facilities will be moved to is not the USA but instead Vietnam, Singapore, or another low cost Asian country whose labor rates today are where China's were several years ago.


    Admittedly US companies who must dovetail with 'just in time' delivery requirements are being forced to think twice about stretching their supply chain to include a 4 week boat trip from China plus an unknown time period at a US port for unloading and customs inspection. This is also driving manufacture of products involving relatively high raw material cost versus labor cost back to the USA, where for example buying copper or aluminum at a certain price in China 8-10 weeks prior to actual customer sale, versus purchasing copper or aluminum 2-4 weeks prior to actual customer sale in the USA exposes the manufacturer to potentially significant commodity price change losses on top of greatly increased inventory 'carrying' costs.
    Last edited by Melonie; 06-13-2012 at 03:47 PM.

  20. #14
    Veteran Member
    Joined
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    493
    Thanks
    32
    Thanked 211 Times in 137 Posts

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    undoubtedly this is true. However the quote doesn't address the distinct possibility that the location the former China facilities will be moved to is not the USA but instead Vietnam, Singapore, or another low cost Asian country whose labor rates today are where China's were several years ago.
    All indications seem to be that the US will be the primary beneficiary of the move by companies that choose to leave China.

    “The economics of manufacturing are swinging in favor of the U.S.,” said Harold Sirkin, a BCG senior partner and co-author of the study. BCG says a more competitive U.S. manufacturing base could create up to 3 million jobs by the end of the decade."

    "Large U.S. manufacturers are much more likely than their smaller peers to move production to the United States from China, according to a survey.

    Labor costs and the quality of goods are the top reasons for companies to consider so-called “re-shoring,” with some companies considering the United States a de facto low-cost country because of its high unemployment, according to the survey by the Boston Consulting Group."

    Among recent examples of what he called an accelerating trend, Sirkin cited Ford Motor, NCR, MasterLock, SleekAudio, Chesapeake Bay Candle, and Farouk Systems.



    The United States is becoming a low-cost developed-world country, according to BCG, with wages typically below those in Western Europe or Japan. More European and Japanese companies are likely to export from U.S. plants.

    Some companies, including General Electric Co and Boeing Co, have said they went too far in moving operations out of the United States and that wage differences are narrowing. GE has moved much of its appliance manufacturing from Mexico and China to Kentucky.

    "Meanwhile, some 600,000 U.S. manufacturing jobs are going unfilled because of a dearth of skilled applicants, according to the Manufacturing Institute and Deloitte. A renewed focus on educating students in science, technology, engineering and math could address the shortfall, manufacturing executives say."
    https://news.fidelity.com/news/news....ccsource=email

  21. #15
    God/dess
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    7,964
    Thanks
    6,155
    Thanked 10,183 Times in 4,602 Posts

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post

    EB-5, a little-known programme that gives a green card to any foreigner who invests at least $500,000 in a business forming 10 or more jobs in the US, received a record 1,675 Chinese applications during the first quarter.
    If this rate continues, that would be approximately 6,400 for the year. If they're all able to meet the requirements of hiring 10 Americans for their business, that's 64,000 new jobs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post

    Actually this is a very 'smart' scenario ...

    Chinese businessmen skim a few million dollars from Chinese Gov't / International Corporation funded projects in China

    Now Multi-millionaire Chinese businessmen make a hasty exit along with their families and millions of dollars before Chinese gov't starts asking serious questions

    Millionaire Chinese businessmen buy property in and move to Manhattan, close to investment banking, top tier colleges for their children, and the arguable world's best substitute for Chinese street culture 'ChinaTown'

    Millionaire Chinese businessmen invest in a Green Energy startup company, corn ethanol farming / refining, or other tax preferred business venture in order to secure an 'investor visa' for themselves and their children

    Tax credits generated by the Green Energy startup company, corn ethanol farming / refining, or other tax preferred business venture offset US taxes otherwise due on Chinese businessmen's 'conventional' US investment income

    sounds like a hell of a deal ... for the Chinese businessmen and the Manhattan real estate agents at least !!! Not so sure how good of a deal it is for US taxpayers.
    It's not a 'smart' scenario. You're just making up the most negative possible scenario you can think of. You have no proof or basis for saying the Chinese millionaires coming here skimmed any money from Chinese Gov't / International Corporation funded projects in China. You have no proof or basis for saying that any of these millionaires coming here on the EB-5 program are getting any tax credits.

    If these immigrants end up creating 64,000 jobs and their businesses make millions of dollars in taxable income, it will be a very good deal for US taxpayers, and for the people working in the newly created jobs.

  22. The Following User Says Thank You to eagle2 For This Useful Post:


  23. #16
    Banned ArmySGT.'s Avatar
    Joined
    May 2005
    Location
    SW Counter Troll HQ
    Posts
    5,582
    Thanks
    1,589
    Thanked 1,674 Times in 1,043 Posts
    Blog Entries
    13
    My Mood
    Amused

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    It is a Communist Country you don't run a Capitalist business without payoffs to Party Officials. It is a cost factored into doing business there as is loss in proprietary processes or technologies in China with a poor (some say non existant) record of upholding Patent Law.

  24. #17
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    If this rate continues, that would be approximately 6,400 for the year. If they're all able to meet the requirements of hiring 10 Americans for their business, that's 64,000 new jobs.
    This would be true IF the additional jobs created by the Chinese millionaire wouldn't have also been created by an American who wound up being 'outbid' by the Chinese millionaire. This would be true IF the additional jobs created by the Chinese millionaire are in fact financed by actual 'value' creation as opposed to gov't subsidies. This would be true IF the pay rate of the jobs created is high enough to make the workers self-sustaining. There are many other possibilities, including the Chinese millionaire opening a stereotypical laundry in 'ChinaTown' and hiring ten minimum wage workers ... who in turn continue to collect food stamps, medicaid, subsidized rent, subsidized utilities etc. funded by US / NY taxpayers. And lastly this would be true IF the new business operates at a profit, versus generating tax deductible losses which are then applied to reduce taxes due on the Chinese millionaire's investment income. You similarly have no proof that these IF's are in fact the case.

    And that brings us back to my original point ... your untested assertion that Chinese multi-millionaires emigrating to the USA is automatically a 'positive' development for the US economy as a whole. As I tried to point out earlier, the only 'givens' are that it is beneficial for NY real estate agents and NY bankers / brokers.
    Last edited by Melonie; 06-14-2012 at 02:30 AM.

  25. #18
    Veteran Member
    Joined
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    493
    Thanks
    32
    Thanked 211 Times in 137 Posts

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    .....And that brings us back to my original point ... your untested assertion that Chinese multi-millionaires emigrating to the USA is automatically a 'positive' development for the US economy as a whole. As I tried to point out earlier, the only 'givens' are that it is beneficial for NY real estate agents and NY bankers / brokers.
    It's amazing how I can still be surprised by the effort people on this board will go to searching for a reason to be negative. This program costs the US nothing and is responsible for lots of jobs and it's on a big upswing. It's not all Chinese by a long-shot. And for the applicants that are Chinese, it is completely ridiculous to assume they are using in the manner you describe, you have absolutely no evidence to base your decisions, just a huge propensity to be negative. There are tens of thousands of new legitimate Chinese business people who have earned their money without "skimming" and who would love the chance to diversify their interests and have a 2nd locale to operate out of. US citizenship is a commodity and this is a great way to receive foreign direct investment and create jobs.

    Also, the US government has targeted zones for economic renewal and in more need of employment assistance than other places, for these "targeted" locations the investment minimum is $500,000 if you go out of a target area the minimum goes to $1,000,000. I can't see too many people spending the extra $500,000 for all the glory and prestige of opening a "a stereotypical laundry in 'ChinaTown'". One of the requirements is that all 10 of the employees must work full-time, so even if they were making minimum wage, it's unlikely they would qualify for too many benefits. There would of course by necessity be payroll and payroll taxes coming out of their paychecks. All of the money must be invested in the enterprise, so numerous local businesses would see an uptick in spending from this money coming in. I also can't see someone with a better paying job somewhere else taking a lower paying job in a visa holders business, so in all likelihood, the people getting hired by the members of this program would either have been under-employed or unemployed. Also, the US doesn't just approve these things willy-nilly- you have to present a detail business plan and the inspectors are very concerned with what type of jobs and business you will be operating. It is not uncommon at all to get rejected.

  26. The Following User Says Thank You to jimboe7373 For This Useful Post:


  27. #19
    God/dess rickdugan's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2010
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    4,570
    Thanks
    4,406
    Thanked 7,481 Times in 2,715 Posts
    My Mood
    Amused

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Jimboe is right. If he were wrong then we would no longer make airplanes, cars , tractors , heavy construction equipment and a bunch of other stuff..
    Jimbo and eagle are contending that there are factors besides labor costs that determine where a manufacturing operation is based and I am sure that there are for some ventures. Airplanes, tractors and heavy construction equipment are probably good examples of things that require a certain number of workers with very specific skills and training as well as finely tuned manufacturing processes, much of which would be hard to easily replicate elsewhere. With respect to automobiles sold in the U.S., even foreign manufacturers have found that it is easier and cheaper to assemble them here, due to the availability of component parts suppliers as well as the high cost of shipping cars overseas.

    But, again, nobody is arguing against that...

    What I did take issue with is the notion that wealthy investors are flocking here to the U.S. to open businesses and are throwing cost considerations to the wind. First, these so-called "wealthy" investors do not have to be very wealthy in order to qualify, nor do they need to create many jobs. Second, it is uncertain how many will even meet their visa requirements after two years anyway - the historical success rates are actually pretty low. Net-net, there is no evidence to suggest that the E5B visa program has, or will be, very additive to the overall employment picture.

    With respect to the re-shoring initiatives, I guess we shall see. I have read one-off success stories where small numbers of jobs have been moved back, but I have not been able to find any evidence of large scale success. IMHO labor costs in China and the yuan's value relative to the dollar are both going to need to rise a great deal in order for most manufacturers, and especially those with labor intensive processes, to seriously consider moving operations back to the U.S. And this little discussion doesn't even address things like corporate taxes, regulatory compliance costs, future employee health care expenses, exposures to lawsuits and potentially other uncertainties and impediments involved in trying to run a large scale manufacturing operation in the U.S.

    We shall see, but IMHO, without a lot of changes to the current cost structure and business climate here in the U.S., I don't see many large manufacturing operations being uprooted from China and moved back here anytime soon.

  28. The Following User Says Thank You to rickdugan For This Useful Post:


  29. #20
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimboe7373 View Post
    All indications seem to be that the US will be the primary beneficiary of the move by companies that choose to leave China.

    “The economics of manufacturing are swinging in favor of the U.S.,” said Harold Sirkin, a BCG senior partner and co-author of the study. BCG says a more competitive U.S. manufacturing base could create up to 3 million jobs by the end of the decade."

    "Large U.S. manufacturers are much more likely than their smaller peers to move production to the United States from China, according to a survey.

    Labor costs and the quality of goods are the top reasons for companies to consider so-called “re-shoring,” with some companies considering the United States a de facto low-cost country because of its high unemployment, according to the survey by the Boston Consulting Group."

    Among recent examples of what he called an accelerating trend, Sirkin cited Ford Motor, NCR, MasterLock, SleekAudio, Chesapeake Bay Candle, and Farouk Systems.



    The United States is becoming a low-cost developed-world country, according to BCG, with wages typically below those in Western Europe or Japan. More European and Japanese companies are likely to export from U.S. plants.

    Some companies, including General Electric Co and Boeing Co, have said they went too far in moving operations out of the United States and that wage differences are narrowing. GE has moved much of its appliance manufacturing from Mexico and China to Kentucky.

    "Meanwhile, some 600,000 U.S. manufacturing jobs are going unfilled because of a dearth of skilled applicants, according to the Manufacturing Institute and Deloitte. A renewed focus on educating students in science, technology, engineering and math could address the shortfall, manufacturing executives say."
    https://news.fidelity.com/news/news....ccsource=email
    Try not to let your wishes father your thoughts. You may be right but the jury is still out. For at least a decade or so, China has shifted some of its manufacturing to cheaper places like Cambodia.

    Some U.S. manufacturing is undoubtedly returning here but how much remains to be seen.

  30. #21
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    This would be true IF the additional jobs created by the Chinese millionaire wouldn't have also been created by an American who wound up being 'outbid' by the Chinese millionaire. This would be true IF the additional jobs created by the Chinese millionaire are in fact financed by actual 'value' creation as opposed to gov't subsidies. This would be true IF the pay rate of the jobs created is high enough to make the workers self-sustaining. There are many other possibilities, including the Chinese millionaire opening a stereotypical laundry in 'ChinaTown' and hiring ten minimum wage workers ... who in turn continue to collect food stamps, medicaid, subsidized rent, subsidized utilities etc. funded by US / NY taxpayers. And lastly this would be true IF the new business operates at a profit, versus generating tax deductible losses which are then applied to reduce taxes due on the Chinese millionaire's investment income. You similarly have no proof that these IF's are in fact the case.

    And that brings us back to my original point ... your untested assertion that Chinese multi-millionaires emigrating to the USA is automatically a 'positive' development for the US economy as a whole. As I tried to point out earlier, the only 'givens' are that it is beneficial for NY real estate agents and NY bankers / brokers.
    Wait a minute. Why does there have to be an American entrepreneur who gets outbid by a Chinese ? I'm sorry Melonie but I think you might be splitting hairs just a bit. On the other hand your caution is justified because aside from higher real estate prices, none of these supposed salutary effects has yet to be seen.

    Are Chinese buying U.S. real estate ? No doubt about it. It's a BIG reason why Manhattan real estate prices have been going up. You can add in a lot of Russians flush with millions and billions in oil money. Just as the Brazilians have caused the Miami real estate market to recover. BUt , aside from higher demand for cleaning ladies, furniture movers and porters, WHERE is the job creation from these increased real estate purchases ?

  31. #22
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimboe7373 View Post
    It's amazing how I can still be surprised by the effort people on this board will go to searching for a reason to be negative. This program costs the US nothing and is responsible for lots of jobs and it's on a big upswing. It's not all Chinese by a long-shot. And for the applicants that are Chinese, it is completely ridiculous to assume they are using in the manner you describe, you have absolutely no evidence to base your decisions, just a huge propensity to be negative. There are tens of thousands of new legitimate Chinese business people who have earned their money without "skimming" and who would love the chance to diversify their interests and have a 2nd locale to operate out of. US citizenship is a commodity and this is a great way to receive foreign direct investment and create jobs.

    Also, the US government has targeted zones for economic renewal and in more need of employment assistance than other places, for these "targeted" locations the investment minimum is $500,000 if you go out of a target area the minimum goes to $1,000,000. I can't see too many people spending the extra $500,000 for all the glory and prestige of opening a "a stereotypical laundry in 'ChinaTown'". One of the requirements is that all 10 of the employees must work full-time, so even if they were making minimum wage, it's unlikely they would qualify for too many benefits. There would of course by necessity be payroll and payroll taxes coming out of their paychecks. All of the money must be invested in the enterprise, so numerous local businesses would see an uptick in spending from this money coming in. I also can't see someone with a better paying job somewhere else taking a lower paying job in a visa holders business, so in all likelihood, the people getting hired by the members of this program would either have been under-employed or unemployed. Also, the US doesn't just approve these things willy-nilly- you have to present a detail business plan and the inspectors are very concerned with what type of jobs and business you will be operating. It is not uncommon at all to get rejected.
    Then why don't we get them all to move to Detroit and East St. Louis ?

  32. #23
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    Jimbo and eagle are contending that there are factors besides labor costs that determine where a manufacturing operation is based and I am sure that there are for some ventures. Airplanes, tractors and heavy construction equipment are probably good examples of things that require a certain number of workers with very specific skills and training as well as finely tuned manufacturing processes, much of which would be hard to easily replicate elsewhere. With respect to automobiles sold in the U.S., even foreign manufacturers have found that it is easier and cheaper to assemble them here, due to the availability of component parts suppliers as well as the high cost of shipping cars overseas.

    But, again, nobody is arguing against that...

    What I did take issue with is the notion that wealthy investors are flocking here to the U.S. to open businesses and are throwing cost considerations to the wind. First, these so-called "wealthy" investors do not have to be very wealthy in order to qualify, nor do they need to create many jobs. Second, it is uncertain how many will even meet their visa requirements after two years anyway - the historical success rates are actually pretty low. Net-net, there is no evidence to suggest that the E5B visa program has, or will be, very additive to the overall employment picture.

    With respect to the re-shoring initiatives, I guess we shall see. I have read one-off success stories where small numbers of jobs have been moved back, but I have not been able to find any evidence of large scale success. IMHO labor costs in China and the yuan's value relative to the dollar are both going to need to rise a great deal in order for most manufacturers, and especially those with labor intensive processes, to seriously consider moving operations back to the U.S. And this little discussion doesn't even address things like corporate taxes, regulatory compliance costs, future employee health care expenses, exposures to lawsuits and potentially other uncertainties and impediments involved in trying to run a large scale manufacturing operation in the U.S.

    We shall see, but IMHO, without a lot of changes to the current cost structure and business climate here in the U.S., I don't see many large manufacturing operations being uprooted from China and moved back here anytime soon.
    Thank you for saying it better and with more clarity than either Melonie or myself.

  33. #24
    Veteran Member
    Joined
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    493
    Thanks
    32
    Thanked 211 Times in 137 Posts

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    What I did take issue with is the notion that wealthy investors are flocking here to the U.S. to open businesses and are throwing cost considerations to the wind. First, these so-called "wealthy" investors do not have to be very wealthy in order to qualify, nor do they need to create many jobs. Second, it is uncertain how many will even meet their visa requirements after two years anyway
    Why does it matter how wealthy they are or for what reason they are involved with the program?. They will be investing $500,000-$1Million directly into our economy with no expense or downside on our end. They are screened pretty thoroughly and if they don't meet the requirements they don't get the visa. Whether they succeed or fail they will be providing a lot of stimulation for the economy- lots of office furniture, commercial rent or purchase, utility payments, tax payments, payroll, insurance, office supplies, phone systems, computers, maintenance companies, printing companies, advertising- thousands of firms will benefit from each of these visas that are issued- all at no cost or downside to us.

    there is no evidence to suggest that the E5B visa program has, or will be, very additive to the overall employment picture.
    As of last year the program has brought in $1.5 Billion in foreign-direct investment and had created 31,000 jobs. This year there will be 3 times the amount of visas issued, so the numbers will be much higher.
    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...-08042011.html


    With respect to the re-shoring initiatives, I guess we shall see. I have read one-off success stories where small numbers of jobs have been moved back, but I have not been able to find any evidence of large scale success....I don't see many large manufacturing operations being uprooted from China and moved back here anytime soon.
    How about these:

    "GE has been one of the major companies leading the charge to bring manufacturing jobs back home to the U.S or 'reshoring'. Since 2009, the company has created 13,500 new jobs in this country with 11,000 of them in manufacturing"
    "And now GE is placing a large bet - $1 billion – on the company's domestic appliance business. This business, together with its lighting business, accounts for 6 percent of General Electric's revenues."
    http://beta.fool.com/tdalmoe/2012/04...gyholnk0000001

    "Ford Motor said Wednesday that it's bringing nearly 2,000 jobs to its U.S. plants by 2012 from suppliers, including those in Japan, Mexico and India."
    http://www.evolvingexcellence.com/bl...#ixzz1xo4rKiRB

    "Heavy equipment manufacturer Caterpillar recently announced that it would look for a site in the United States to build a new factory for its construction excavators."
    http://blog.managingautomation.com/c...manufacturing/

    "With more competitive labor agreements, automakers are building more in the United States, retooling and refurbishing existing plants, and backshoring operations."
    "GM announced that its powertrain plants in Ohio and Indiana would get the bulk of a $129 million investment. The plants produce transmissions for Buick and Chevrolet models that incorporate eAssist fuel-saving technology. The monies are part of GM’s $2 billion investment in 17 facilities in eight states that are expected to create or retain 4,000 jobs."
    "GM also broke ground on its $331 million expansion of its Arlington, Texas, assembly plant in October."

    http://www.areadevelopment.com/Autom...-0003211.shtml

  34. #25
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: Wealthy flocking to U.S.

    ^^^ so how much of the money that GE and GM are 'promising' to invest in US manufacturing operations will actually come from corporate profits, versus grants / subsidies funded by US federal and state taxpayers ? Again the same point applies as with businesses started by immigrant Chinese millionaires. One must look behind the headline and 'under the hood' to find the real economic facts involved.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 145
    Last Post: 07-23-2018, 05:31 AM
  2. Why are so many wealthy white men not attracted to women of color?
    By vixenluv in forum Stripping (was Stripping General)
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 03-03-2012, 11:19 PM
  3. Replies: 22
    Last Post: 07-27-2010, 08:27 AM
  4. Wealthy and middle class fleeing from NY
    By Deogol in forum Dollar Den
    Replies: 48
    Last Post: 11-07-2009, 12:42 AM
  5. The care and feeding of the very wealthy
    By Djoser in forum The Lounge
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 05-27-2006, 11:03 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •