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Thread: Is College Worth It ?

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    Default Is College Worth It ?

    More and more people are asking that very question. It has been raised in this forum several times. When Melonie first questioned the relative worth of a college degree some months back, she was excoriated by several posters. More and more she is entitled to another " I told you so".

    It is getting harder and harder for college graduates to enter the middle class. Especially in places like New York. NYC workers aged 21 to 24 have seen their median hourly wages drop 5% from 2002 to 2011. According to the Fiscal Policy Institute college grads saw their wages drop MORE sharply than workers without degrees !

    In 2011 the unemployment rate for New Yorkers aged 16 to 19 was 24.8 % ; for 20 to 24 year olds it was over 10 % and for those between 25 and 34 it was 9.2 %. At the same time college costs have TRIPLED since the early 1990's. Over the last ten years, states have been forced to shift the cost of their public universities from the public to the students who have had to take out larger loans. For instance, N.Y. cut aid to higher ed by 25% over the last 20 years while those students now have an average student loan debt of $25,000.

    Unable to find jobs or well paying jobs, the children of Baby-Boomers have either moved back in with their parents or not moved out at all. This has INCREASED the financial burden on their parents by anywhere from $10,000 to $20,000 per year. They have to pay additional expenses like food and utilities that they otherwise would be able to pocket and save, spend on themselves or invest. Some 93 % of baby boomers have provided financial support to their ADULT children. 55 % have permitted their children to move back home and live rent free.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 06-27-2012 at 07:05 AM.

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    ^^^ and you didn't even touch on the 8% ( and rapidly rising ) delinquency rate on federal guaranteed student loans, the fact that an average $29,000 student loan balance and resulting monthly payments are taking priority over being approved for new auto loans and mortgage loans, etc.

    However, to accurately answer your question, there are indeed a number of specific fields of study where there is a 'shortage' of qualified new graduates thus relatively high possibility for both employment and decent pay rate. Unfortunately, most of these specialties come with a different kind of 'price' ... being forced to work nights - weekends - holidays and/or subject to 24/7 call-in, potentially being exposed to health hazards ( from RN's to mining engineers ), employment involving sequential short term contracts with questionable potential for renewal etc. Most also require heavy competence in math, science, and 'personal responsibility' ... meaning that if a newly hired graduate fails to 'perform', a bad professional reputation will follow them to potential future 'employers'.

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    I thought about mentioning the delinquency rate on student loans but that is covered in another thread.

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    To answer the questions NO. I have two degrees, and let me tell you it has NOT helped me in many cases. The fact is the jobs that college graduates seek are either going overseas, done by viased workers, or are jobs that can be done on freelance. In my field (instructional design)I am seeing jobs left and right going to freelance jobs, ie jobs done at home without insurance. However at least in this case there are still some jobs. In many fields, from education, to law, to engineering, jobs are disappearing by the dozens.

    However it is worse for those with what I call worthless degrees. I mean, would an employer hire someone with an art history degree or philosophy? Or how about African American or women's studies? Unless it is a specific field or company (let's say the NAACP or NOW)the answer is now. Not to mention that many colleges water down the degrees. I attended college many years ago and even then I had classmates who had no business going to college. College make a huge percentage of money from remedial classes. Not to mention student loans and the fraud that goes on with those.

    I am considering going into another field but have no idea what. I have considered personal trainer or animal trainer, both of which do not require degrees.

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    I think what's different now is that a generic "college" degree is not valuable. There are two reasons I see:

    1. College was a way to stand out and employers would pay a premium just because you went to college. This is no longer the case. Just going to college is no longer enough. You now have to have the specific degree the employer is looking for.

    2. Cost. It used to be that anyone could go to college and pay or all or most of it by working. When college costs were less than $5,000 per year, it was much more feasible to pay for much of that through part time jobs. In addition, there were more grants and cheaper loans. Now with the costs so high, students have to take out huge loans to pay for everything.

    The days of drifting through college until you collected some odd degree and then jumping into a good job are over. You need to look at college as a vocational school where you evaluate the cost of degree you want against the likely income you will get after graduation.

    College is still a valuable experience. Not only for the education and employment opportunities, but also for personal growth. For many, it is a safe, nurturing environment where they can make the transition to an adult. They become better people in college than they would have if they had jumped straight into a job. But now with the increased costs, that benefit needs to be carefully balanced against the huge costs.

    In the past it may have made sense to go to an Ivy League school on loans for a BA in Social Sciences. The costs were lower and the relative salaries were better. But now it doesn't make sense to take on $100k in debt to get a job that only pays $20k/year.

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    Effort and innovation trump degrees these days. If you are die-hard dedicated to your subject matter and are willing to intern, volunteer, and network then you'll get a job. Is there any other way to get a job these days? No. In addition to interning, volunteering, and networking do you need a degree? For most jobs (unless its a trade-based job like nursing, engineering, computer science, etc.) no you do not need a degree.

    If you WANT to go to college and can pay for nearly 100% of it out of pocket, then by all means go. If you DON'T want to go to college or are on the fence about it or doing it to make a family member shut the fuck up, or if you will have to take out more than like 20k in loans total, DO NOT GO.

    IMO, I think I'm pro-college, but not pro-graduating unless you're obsessed with a trade or trade-based industry. There's no point, just take classes you want. The same requirements exist to get a job these days whether you have a degree or not. Employers tend to hire people their employees already know in 90% of cases. So spend that time NETWORKING (interning, volunteering, meetups in industries you're interested in, meeting people & contacts, etc.)

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    While I think networking and internships can be valuable many times they lead nowhere. I know plenty of people who have done those and more and are still unemployed. Also, with the way the economy is most companies will not bring in someone for a white collar job without a degree. However if middle management isn't their thing, and they prefer blue collar then not having a degree is often a good thing.

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    I will also talk about a 'taboo' aspect of college discussions ... lost opportunity cost. Virtually every media discussion about the 'virtues' of obtaining a college degree compares tuition costs and ( higher ) earnings potential after graduation. But NONE of these media discussions mention a 'taboo' aspect that is of particular interest to exotic dancers, camgirls etc. And that of course is that the time spent studying for those 4 years comes at the very literal expense of not earning as much money as would have been possible had a serious full time effort been devoted to exotic dancing or camming instead. And this is particularly the case when the 'lost' earnings opportunity involves a profession where earnings potential 'peaks' very early, i.e. professional athletes, dancers and camgirls !

    In a very oversimplified example, consider the possibility that a serious full time effort at dancing or camming could have produced an additional $25k per year of earnings for each of the 4 years spent studying. In truth this means that, at the point of graduating from college, the part time dancer or camgirl is not only 'behind' her non-college degreed serious full time co-workers for the amount of college tuition ( which could be anywhere between $30k and $100k+ ), but she is also 'behind' her non-college degreed co-workers for $100k of 'lost' earnings potential.

    In oversimplified terms, to 'break even' with her non-college degreed co-workers the college graduate would need to earn an additional $200k or $5k per year over the course of a 40 year career. But that's $5k in after tax dollars ... and progressive tax rates rise fast as income levels rise. So in terms of pre-tax dollars we're probably talking about $7-8k per year not five.

    And in oversimplified terms, the $100k of 'lost' income potential for the college graduate isn't linear either. Even in today's poor economy, being able to invest $100k in one's early 20's can produce an additional 2-3-5k per year in 'passive' income from capital gains, dividends, interest etc. So to the above $7-8k per year in pre-tax income needed to cover college tuition costs and 'lost' income potential while studying instead, another 2-3-5k per year in pre-tax income is also needed to compensate for the contribution of that 'passive' investment income which the college graduate will not have.

    Adding these two 'lost' opportunity cost factors basically amounts to a need for the college graduate to earn something in excess of $9-11-13k per year in pre-tax dollars every year for the next 40 years just to 'break even' with her non-college degreed counterparts. Is that possible in some majors / professions ??? - absolutely. But not very many !!!
    Last edited by Melonie; 06-27-2012 at 12:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    I will also talk about a 'taboo' aspect of college discussions ... lost opportunity cost. Virtually every media discussion about the 'virtues' of obtaining a college degree compares tuition costs and ( higher ) earnings potential after graduation. But NONE of these media discussions mention a 'taboo' aspect that is of particular interest to exotic dancers, camgirls etc. And that of course is that the time spent studying for those 4 years comes at the very literal expense of not earning as much money as would have been possible had a serious full time effort been devoted to exotic dancing or camming instead. And this is particularly the case when the 'lost' earnings opportunity involves a profession where earnings potential 'peaks' very early, i.e. professional athletes, dancers and camgirls !

    In a very oversimplified example, consider the possibility that a serious full time effort at dancing or camming could have produced an additional $25k per year of earnings for each of the 4 years spent studying. In truth this means that, at the point of graduating from college, the part time dancer or camgirl is not only 'behind' her non-college degreed serious full time co-workers for the amount of college tuition ( which could be anywhere between $30k and $100k+ ), but she is also 'behind' her non-college degreed co-workers for $100k of 'lost' earnings potential.

    In oversimplified terms, to 'break even' with her non-college degreed co-workers the college graduate would need to earn an additional $200k or $5k per year over the course of a 40 year career. But that's $5k in after tax dollars ... and progressive tax rates rise fast as income levels rise. So in terms of pre-tax dollars we're probably talking about $7-8k per year not five.

    And in oversimplified terms, the $100k of 'lost' income potential for the college graduate isn't linear either. Even in today's poor economy, being able to invest $100k in one's early 20's can produce an additional 2-3-5k per year in 'passive' income from capital gains, dividends, interest etc. So to the above $7-8k per year in pre-tax income needed to cover college tuition costs and 'lost' income potential while studying instead, another 2-3-5k per year in pre-tax income is also needed to compensate for the contribution of that 'passive' investment income which the college graduate will not have.

    Adding these two 'lost' opportunity cost factors basically amounts to a need for the college graduate to earn something in excess of $9-11-13k per year in pre-tax dollars every year for the next 40 years just to 'break even' with her non-college degreed counterparts. Is that possible in some majors / professions ??? - absolutely. But not very many !!! have
    There is a LOT of truth to this and plenty of food for thought. I worked my way through both college and graduate school. I did not have to take out a loan until my last two years of grad school so my debt was easily manageable. But I still had seven years of ground to make up ; seven years of low earnings while I was in school plus a loan to pay off. Most of the courses I took in college were completely useless. They were part of a "liberal arts" education, the practical utility of which is highly questionable. Most of my education was done by READING. Was I exposed to things that I otherwise would not have read ? Yes. I learned to hate Shakespeare even more in college than I did in high school. Joining Twain and Shaw who both thought he was highly overrated to put it mildly. I still find Joyce impenetrable and think Sartre and Proust are pretentious assholes.
    But I also read Friedman , Hayek , Hobbes, Locke and Adam Smith. I found out what a racist creep and international ignoramus Woodrow Wilson was. I got to listen to people like Bobby Seale, Bill Kuntsler, Dick Gregory, Thomas Sowell, Jack Kemp and Bill Buckley. ( Just a few of the people who lectured at my college while I was there. ) It was in short, a mixed bag.
    I remember well that in college there was a tension and debate between the "vocationalists" and the "generalists". The vocationalists wanted more courses geared toward preparation for the real world and graduate school. The generalists struggled to maintain the "liberal arts" atmosphere. While there is something to be said for "well rounded" graduates the education necessary to produce them is becoming an unaffordable luxury for too many. I could have gone to college in half the time and at half the cost and been just as prepared for graduate school if I only had to take those course that actually prepared me for such work. A LOT of college time, life and energy seems to be directed toward preserving jobs for professors as opposed to really helping the students.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 06-27-2012 at 11:06 AM.

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    I remember well that in college there was a tension and debate between the "vocationalists" and the "generalists". The vocationalists wanted more courses geared toward preparation for the real world and graduate school. The generalists struggled to maintain the "liberal arts" atmosphere. While there is something to be said for "well rounded" graduates the education necessary to produce them is becoming an unaffordable luxury for too many. I could have gone to college in half the time and at half the cost and been just as prepared for graduate school if I only had to take those course that actually prepared me for such work. A LOT of college time, life and energy seems to be directed toward preserving jobs for professors as opposed to really helping the students.
    With the big increases in tuition, it doesn't always make sense to take fluff classes. Any class will have value, but many liberal arts classes only serve to make a person a little more well rounded. It's one thing to take Ancient Japanese History if the course costs you $50, but when the course is $500 or more it's hard to justify the value of the benefit against the cost. This is especially true if you're going to college with loans, as you not only pay $500 for the course, but then you pay years of interest on top of it. In the end, most people would get the same benefit by reading the course work on their own.

    Not everyone defines success in life as making the most money possible, so there's nothing wrong with taking a different path which provides more self-enrichment than income. Taking liberal arts classes can be very enjoyable and provide a lifetime of knowledge. But it's important to avoid the trap of taking on a huge amount of debt to achieve this self-enrichment. The debt will end up being a monster that will negate any personal enjoyment from taking those courses.

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    Divide your tuition by the number of hours and that's what you're paying per hour for those classes. If you're taking 15 hours at $10k per semester, that's over $600 per hour. A 3 hour class is costing you almost $2k. That's what I mean by evaluating the hourly cost of those classes.

    The education itself won't hurt you. All education is beneficial. The problem is the amount of debt you have to take on to get that education. The debt you take on should be proportional to the expected salary you'll get upon graduation. You want your debt to certainly be less than a year's starting salary in your profession. So while it's manageable if a doctor graduates with $100k in debt, a teacher should be under $20k. In the past you didn't have to worry so much about the debt because, with tuition much lower, your debt would much lower. Now with tuition so high, it's easy to graduate with a monumental amount of debt that will be very painful to pay off.

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    Quote Originally Posted by NickT View Post
    With the big increases in tuition, it doesn't always make sense to take fluff classes. Any class will have value, but many liberal arts classes only serve to make a person a little more well rounded. It's one thing to take Ancient Japanese History if the course costs you $50, but when the course is $500 or more it's hard to justify the value of the benefit against the cost. This is especially true if you're going to college with loans, as you not only pay $500 for the course, but then you pay years of interest on top of it. In the end, most people would get the same benefit by reading the course work on their own.

    Not everyone defines success in life as making the most money possible, so there's nothing wrong with taking a different path which provides more self-enrichment than income. Taking liberal arts classes can be very enjoyable and provide a lifetime of knowledge. But it's important to avoid the trap of taking on a huge amount of debt to achieve this self-enrichment. The debt will end up being a monster that will negate any personal enjoyment from taking those courses.
    I like to think about what it would cost to buy the books on the syllabus and how much exchanging ideas on the material will or will not help me. If it's information I could teach myself I wouldn't pay for a class in it. Better to pick the challenging classes and get more bang for our buck.
    “What a caterpillar calls the end of the world we call a butterfly.” - ECKHART TOLLE

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    Tuition at public colleges are still relatively inexpensive, and (at least in CA), there is a very smooth community college -> 4 year transfer system that can ease even more debt. You can pay for community college making minimum wage
    True on the surface. However, a large number of prospective employers now treat community college associate's degrees as relatively worthless, and now treat state college degrees with suspicion. Granted that there are some exceptions for well known, well regarded state colleges. But in many cases, prospective employers have learned 'the hard way' that many state college graduates have earned their diplomas as a result of the lowering of educational performance standards, the watering down of curriculums to achieve a student pass rate that isn't 'embarrassing' to the state etc. Thus, regardless of individual abilities, a state college degree is more likely to leave the door to some 'upscale' career opportunities closed to the state college graduate.

    The point of course is that if a prospective employer has an opening for a new college graduate, an applicant with a degree from a state college is now likely to be placed lower in the resume' pile than another applicant with a degree from a private college ... based on the employer's recent experience with poor 'real world' job performance by state college graduates they have hired. Thus the decision to devote 2 / 4 years worth of effort and lost opportunity cost to pursue a state college degree ... in an attempt to save $20k-$40k-$60k or whatever in tuition costs / student loan debt versus a private college, is not without negative trade-offs. When viewed objectively, a state college graduate will still be behind non-college educated peers by the same $100k in lost income, plus perhaps just $20k in student loan debt, but far less likely to be hired for 'upscale' jobs with a pay rate that would make it possible for the state college graduate to 'make up for' that $120k. From this standpoint, investing $100k in total student loan debt to obtain a degree from a private college that will in turn translate into a more 'upscale' job after graduation, with a large enough paycheck to actually 'close' the $200k lost income plus student loan debt gap, may be a far better 'investment'.

    But as I mentioned earlier, the vast majority of discussions on this subject totally ignore the very real 'costs' of foregoing the $100k in lost income that goes along with being a 4 year full time college student. Without the lost opportunity cost factored into the equation, the lower tuition available at state colleges would appear to offset the lower likelihood of a state college graduate landing an 'upscale' job with a larger paycheck. But if you grind all of the numbers, attending a state college may in fact leave the state college graduate unable to ever 'catch up' to non-college educated peers from a financial standpoint ... because the available pay rate differential versus the $100k + $20k starting 'deficit' is simply insufficient to close the 'gap'.
    Last edited by Melonie; 06-30-2012 at 11:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    Please tell me what proof you have, that when you apply for a job, the employer you're interviewing with has had a "recent experience with poor 'real world' job performance by state college graduates they have hired"? Of the top five business schools, in percentage of graduates employed full time after three months, four of the top five are state schools, or state-supported schools, according to a U.S. News and World Report survey.

    http://www.usnews.com/education/best...lead-to-jobs-2

    It seems that the businesses that actually do the hiring don't seem to have a problem with graduates of state schools, or state-supported schools.

    If you're planning to work at a corporate job, how much money you make over your career has far more to do with your job performance than the college or university you graduated from. In most cases, 'upscale' career opportunities aren't awarded to college graduates. They're offered to experienced employees or experienced job applicants that have proven themselves. Regardless of where you went to college, chances are, your first job in your field of study will be an entry level position. If two employees that have worked at the same company for ten apply for an upper level position, the company will give the position to the employee that has performed the best over the past 10 years, not the one who went to an expensive private university.

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    In regard to your 'assertion' that employers don't have grounds to consider state college graduates less capable than private college graduates ...


    from

    (snip)"The state's co-flagship and very high research-oriented universities are guilty of lowering academic standards to inflate the average GPA of their students by nearly two grade points. From fall 1997 to the spring 2009, the average GPA of students at the University of Florida rose from 3.0 to 3.3. At Florida State, average GPAs rose from 2.78 to 3.05 in Fall 2008.

    Both schools tout competitive admission criteria for first-time-in-college students. The vast majority, 86 percent of the University of Florida's class of 2014, had a GPA of 4.0 or above, according to its admissions office. The class of 2014 at Florida State has an average GPA of 3.5 and above.

    While both schools use these numbers for funding from the state, research entities and, ironically, to build their academic reputations, their admissions committees forget that the same prominence-building ploys used at the university level play out in grades K-12 as well.

    Since 1990, the percentage of high school students receiving A's has increased while students receiving a C grade or lower has decreased substantially, according Laurence Bunin, senior vice president of college connection and success at College Board.

    This trend should be alarming to taxpayers, because two of our state's most prominent universities are producing graduates who will not be an asset to the Florida's plan to transform he state's economy."(snip)


    from

    (snip)"It’s no secret that students admitted to the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill are bright, but academicians are beginning to question whether 82 percent of them are either A or B scholars.

    That was the percentage of grades given out by UNC professors and instructors in the fall 2008 semester that were either an A or a B, meaning just 18 percent of grades were C, D or F. That, in the opinion of many, is a manifestation of what’s called grade inflation – the gradual rise over the years of grades, not only at UNC but at universities across the nation.

    “There is a grade inflation and compression issue going on,” says Andrew Perrin, an associate professor of sociology at UNC. “An A is definitely not an A.”

    The phenomenon is so ingrained that a student who earned a C on a course in 1990 might get a B today, according to research conducted by Stuart Rojstaczer, a former Duke University professor who tracks grade inflation. He’s found that the collective grade point average, or GPA, of students at U.S. public universities has increased by 0.16 to an average of 3.01 over the past 20 years."(snip)


    And to address your 'implication' that no facts exist to support my conclusion, Payscale.com has performed a very thorough 30 year Return On Investment based analysis of US Colleges ... which by the way also ignores the lost opportunity cost of not working for 4 years while attending college full time ... and finds that ALL of the top 10 - and 40 out of the top 50 colleges highest ranked by Return On Investment are in fact private colleges ... many of which charge $200k or more in tuition and other costs for their 4 year programs.

    Full list is at . If you check the list you see that the handful of state colleges included on the top 50 ROI list involve specialty degrees i.e. Colorado School of Mining, NY Maritime University, and a handful of very well regarded state technical colleges i.e. UC Berkeley and Georgia Tech.

    There is only ONE explanation how a college graduate who spent an extra $100k+ in tuition costs to obtain a degree from a private college versus a state college can achieve a better Rate Of Return on their much higher tuition investment ... because employers are significantly more likely to hire the private college graduates for 'upscale' job openings carrying significantly higher pay rates.


    Readdressing my 'taboo' factor of ignoring lost income potential which could have been earned by not attending college and working full time instead, if you look down the list and check out state colleges whose tuition rates are less than $20,000 per year ( = $80k in the chart ), you'll find that a few noteworthy exceptions aside that the published ROI ranges from somewhere near +5% to large negative percentages. This compares to ROI percentages in excess of 10% for the Top 50 ROI colleges. But these percentage values do NOT consider the impact of having to earn additional money after graduation to also offset 4 years * $25k per year worth of regular job income that was NOT earned as a result of being a full time student. In very simple terms, making up for this $100k lost opportunity cost over a period of 30 years involves $3,300 per year of additional after tax income ... which will probably correspond to an additional $5000+ per year in pre-tax earnings. If the study's published ROI for the majority of state colleges was only in the 5% ballpark without the lost opportunity cost issue, it will very likely swing negative when the lost opportunity cost issue IS added to the calculation.

    And that, of course, comes back to my original claim that most state college graduates today will never fully catch up financially to their non-college educated peers. The study of course also confirms that the college students MOST likely to receive a profitable payoff from their investment of time and tuition money are graduates of Ivy League Colleges, then graduates of specialty / technical colleges ( private plus some well regarded state colleges ), followed by graduates of non-technical private liberal arts colleges. The numbers don't lie here. There is a link to a very thorough explanation of the study's methodology on the survey page.


    Of the top five business schools, in percentage of graduates employed full time after three months, four of the top five are state schools, or state-supported schools,
    This tells us what ... that a high percentage of graduates from state business schools have been hired by non-'upscale' employers at comparatively low pay rates to perform comparatively non-demanding but necessary tasks like payroll, employee tax withholding and reporting, employee benefits administration, Sarbanes-Oxley reporting etc. ... low pay rates which may never allow the state college graduate to recoup their cost of tuition plus 'lost' income from not working at a 'regular' job for four years while a full time college student ??? I'll leave it in the skeptics court to prove that my assertion is NOT the case !

    There's more involved for a person to 'break even' on their investment of time and money into obtaining a state college degree than simply landing a job after graduation regardless of pay rate !!! Obviously, with every additional gov't tax and/or benefit mandate put into effect, the needs of plain vanilla businesses to hire business majors to attend to those taxes and/or benefit mandates increases ... which indeed makes the probability of ANY business major college graduate landing a full time job that much greater. However, there is no proven correlation that the pay rates of business majors hired to perform these non-demanding but necessary tasks are high enough above average pay rates for non-college educated workers to produce a positive Rate of Return versus the time and money spent to obtain their state college business degree. On the flip side, the probability of a state college business major landing an 'upscale' job with major income potential at an investment bank, brokerage, insurance company, hedge fund, tax shelter bundler, investment advisor etc., where pay rates are MUCH higher, is far lower than Ivy League and/or private college business major graduates !
    Last edited by Melonie; 07-01-2012 at 10:13 AM.

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    In regard to your 'assertion' that employers don't have grounds to consider state college graduates less capable than private college graduates ...


    from http://www.thefamuanonline.com/opini...eges-1.2342800

    (snip)"The state's co-flagship and very high research-oriented universities are guilty of lowering academic standards to inflate the average GPA of their students by nearly two grade points. From fall 1997 to the spring 2009, the average GPA of students at the University of Florida rose from 3.0 to 3.3. At Florida State, average GPAs rose from 2.78 to 3.05 in Fall 2008.

    Both schools tout competitive admission criteria for first-time-in-college students. The vast majority, 86 percent of the University of Florida's class of 2014, had a GPA of 4.0 or above, according to its admissions office. The class of 2014 at Florida State has an average GPA of 3.5 and above.

    While both schools use these numbers for funding from the state, research entities and, ironically, to build their academic reputations, their admissions committees forget that the same prominence-building ploys used at the university level play out in grades K-12 as well.

    Since 1990, the percentage of high school students receiving A's has increased while students receiving a C grade or lower has decreased substantially, according Laurence Bunin, senior vice president of college connection and success at College Board.

    This trend should be alarming to taxpayers, because two of our state's most prominent universities are producing graduates who will not be an asset to the Florida's plan to transform he state's economy."(snip)


    from http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/....html?page=all

    (snip)"It’s no secret that students admitted to the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill are bright, but academicians are beginning to question whether 82 percent of them are either A or B scholars.

    That was the percentage of grades given out by UNC professors and instructors in the fall 2008 semester that were either an A or a B, meaning just 18 percent of grades were C, D or F. That, in the opinion of many, is a manifestation of what’s called grade inflation – the gradual rise over the years of grades, not only at UNC but at universities across the nation.

    “There is a grade inflation and compression issue going on,” says Andrew Perrin, an associate professor of sociology at UNC. “An A is definitely not an A.”

    The phenomenon is so ingrained that a student who earned a C on a course in 1990 might get a B today, according to research conducted by Stuart Rojstaczer, a former Duke University professor who tracks grade inflation. He’s found that the collective grade point average, or GPA, of students at U.S. public universities has increased by 0.16 to an average of 3.01 over the past 20 years."(snip)
    So you're saying that graduates from public universities are less capable than graduates from private universities because of how high the average GPA is? The average GPA at public universities is 3.0. The average at a private universities is 3.3.

    http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2010/04/28/26025/

    That means GPA's at private universities are more inflated than at public universities. The facts contradict your assertion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    And to address your 'implication' that no facts exist to support my conclusion, Payscale.com has performed a very thorough 30 year Return On Investment based analysis of US Colleges ... which by the way also ignores the lost opportunity cost of not working for 4 years while attending college full time ... and finds that ALL of the top 10 - and 40 out of the top 50 colleges highest ranked by Return On Investment are in fact private colleges ... many of which charge $200k or more in tuition and other costs for their 4 year programs.

    Full list is at http://www.payscale.com/college-education-value . If you check the list you see that the handful of state colleges included on the top 50 ROI list involve specialty degrees i.e. Colorado School of Mining, NY Maritime University, and a handful of very well regarded state technical colleges i.e. UC Berkeley and Georgia Tech.
    You have not presented any facts that support your conclusion. You have not provided a single fact supporting your statement that graduates from state schools perform poorly. Your chart from Payscale.com is not accurate. From the methodology link, on data set characteristics:

    "Only employees who possess a bachelor's degree and no higher degrees are included."

    Excluding graduates with higher degrees leaves out many of the highest earners.

    In addition, we're talking about ALL colleges and universities, not just the top 50. Your list includes over 1200 colleges and universities. A good percentage of the top 10 percent are public colleges and universities, and there are a number of private schools in the bottom 90 percent. Eight of the bottom ten schools are private schools.

    For those private schools in the top 50, many of them take only a small percentage of applicants, so for most people, they're not an option, regardless of how much money they're willing to pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    There is only ONE explanation how a college graduate who spent an extra $100k+ in tuition costs to obtain a degree from a private college versus a state college can achieve a better Rate Of Return on their much higher tuition investment ... because employers are significantly more likely to hire the private college graduates for 'upscale' job openings carrying significantly higher pay rates.
    As I said above, your list does not support your assertion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    This compares to ROI percentages in excess of 10% for the Top 50 ROI colleges. But these percentage values do NOT consider the impact of having to earn additional money after graduation to also offset 4 years * $25k per year worth of regular job income that was NOT earned as a result of being a full time student. In very simple terms, making up for this $100k lost opportunity cost over a period of 30 years involves $3,300 per year of additional after tax income ... which will probably correspond to an additional $5000+ per year in pre-tax earnings. If the study's published ROI for the majority of state colleges was only in the 5% ballpark without the lost opportunity cost issue, it will very likely swing negative when the lost opportunity cost issue IS added to the calculation.
    I don't know where you're getting the figure of $25k from. According to the article below, the avg. income for high school graduates is $21,500.

    http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec...while-20111229

    It's probably even lower for someone just getting out of high school without any experience. You're also ignoring the fact that high school graduates pay taxes on their income, and also have to pay living expenses. After paying taxes and living expenses, a high school graduate is going to have far less than $100k after four years. It will probably be much closer to $0. Your net worth is reflected by how much money you are able to make after meeting living expenses, not how much you make overall. If a high school graduate earns $20k a year, but has all of his income going towards living expenses, after ten years he will have earned $200k, but have $0 dollars to show for it. If a college graduate gets a job earning $40k out of college, and is able to save $10k of that, he will be wealthier than the high school graduate who earned $200k over 10 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    And that, of course, comes back to my original claim that most state college graduates today will never fully catch up financially to their non-college educated peers.
    Based on factual data, rather than your very biased assertions, most state college graduates will end up way ahead of their non-college educated peers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    The study of course also confirms that the college students MOST likely to receive a profitable payoff from their investment of time and tuition money are graduates of Ivy League Colleges, then graduates of specialty / technical colleges ( private plus some well regarded state colleges ), followed by graduates of non-technical private liberal arts colleges. The numbers don't lie here. There is a link to a very thorough explanation of the study's methodology on the survey page.
    As I said before, your study is faulty because it excludes college graduates who went on to earn more advanced degrees.

    Only a small percentage of private colleges and universities are Ivy league schools. Most aren't. There are plenty of state schools that are just as good, or better, than the average private university, but cost much less money. There are plenty of graduates from state universities, that later went on to have successful careers with high pay.


    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    This tells us what ... that a high percentage of graduates from state business schools have been hired by non-'upscale' employers at comparatively low pay rates to perform comparatively non-demanding but necessary tasks like payroll, employee tax withholding and reporting, employee benefits administration, Sarbanes-Oxley reporting etc. ... low pay rates which may never allow the state college graduate to recoup their cost of tuition plus 'lost' income from not working at a 'regular' job for four years while a full time college student ??? I'll leave it in the skeptics court to prove that my assertion is NOT the case !
    It's not the case. You haven't provided any proof to support your assertions. Many of the 'non-demanding' tasks you mention above are done by computers, using third-party software from companies such as PeopleSoft. Employees who understand how to operate software from companies such as PeopleSoft get paid very good salaries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    There's more involved for a person to 'break even' on their investment of time and money into obtaining a state college degree than simply landing a job after graduation regardless of pay rate !!! Obviously, with every additional gov't tax and/or benefit mandate put into effect, the needs of plain vanilla businesses to hire business majors to attend to those taxes and/or benefit mandates increases ... which indeed makes the probability of ANY business major college graduate landing a full time job that much greater. However, there is no proven correlation that the pay rates of business majors hired to perform these non-demanding but necessary tasks are high enough above average pay rates for non-college educated workers to produce a positive Rate of Return versus the time and money spent to obtain their state college business degree. On the flip side, the probability of a state college business major landing an 'upscale' job with major income potential at an investment bank, brokerage, insurance company, hedge fund, tax shelter bundler, investment advisor etc., where pay rates are MUCH higher, is far lower than Ivy League and/or private college business major graduates !
    What proof do you have that there aren't many state college business majors working in those fields?

    In addition, you don't have to work at an investment bank, brokerage, insurance company, hedge fund, tax shelter bundler, or as an investment advisor to earn a good income. Any large corporation, and a number of smaller ones, have many high-paying jobs. There are jobs in many fields, where people with college degrees, including degrees from state schools, earn a lot more than an average high school graduate.

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    So you're saying that graduates from public universities are less capable than graduates from private universities because of how high the average GPA is? The average GPA at public universities is 3.0. The average at a private universities is 3.3.
    No, the authors I posted are basically saying that students at private universities possessed the academic skills and work ethic to achieve a legitimate average 3.3 GPA ... but that students at public universities on the average have the skills and work ethic to achieve an objective 2.7 ( or whatever ) average GPA which has then been inflated to 3.0 due to watering down the curriculum as well as 'relative' grade assignment ! And that fact supports the conclusion that employers perceive a significant difference in performance between private college graduates and state college graduates, and react accordingly where hiring decisions and pay rates are concerned.


    There are jobs in many fields, where people with college degrees, including degrees from state schools, earn a lot more than an average high school graduate.
    I never said that state school graduates didn't earn a 'lot' more than high school graduates. The question I raised was whether or not state school graduates are actually able to earn 'enough' more money in after-tax income after graduation to offset the 4 * $25k per year of 'lost' potential income from full time employment they 'sacrificed' to attend college full time, as well as also offsetting the $40-$80k they invested in 4 years worth of state college tuition which their high school graduate peers did not. The Return On Investment study numbers support the conclusion that the majority state school graduates will experience a 'negative' return on investment because their post-graduation earnings differential isn't sufficient to recover this $140k to $180k over the course of the next 30 years. The ROI study numbers also show a significant number of examples where graduates of particular state schools can't even achieve a positive ROI based on post-graduation earnings differential versus tuition cost alone !!!


    I don't know where you're getting the figure of $25k from. According to the article below, the avg. income for high school graduates is $21,500
    That also comes from the college ROI study ... which correctly points out that, when comparing the possible investment of tuition and effort to attend college versus not attending college, a pre-requisite is being accepted by a college in the first place. This in turn places the potential college student at the 75% earnings point for high school graduates if they choose to begin working at a straight job right out of high school, not the average. The presumption of course is that 50% of US high school graduates have low grades, bad records, or other 'problems' that would preclude their acceptance as college students ... factors which will similarly carry over to their pay rate / job performance after graduating high school. This automatically places college eligible high school graduates in the top 50% with the midpoint of that range being 75% ! So THAT's where the $25k annual 'lost' earnings figure comes from.
    Last edited by Melonie; 07-01-2012 at 05:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    I will rate my undergraduate degree, a B.Sc. in accounting as highly valuable. Indiana University has an excellent business school which prepared me very well for the C.P.A. exam and helped me find a very good first job. Since then, I've earned a handsome living based on having a CPA and a good education. Call I.U. an A+ for value.

    I rate stripping as almost the equal of I.U. I learned much, especially about the way to really sell and manage a business from stripping. While I don't necessarily recommend it for every woman, I believe stripping definitely gives us a leg up on the competition. Value, A.

    I rate Duke very low for my M.B.A. There was no rigor what so ever in any of the classes I took. Duke was interested only in taking my employer's money in the form of a scholarship. In return, they never gave a grade to anyone in the class lower than a B+. Failure to show up and wholesale plagiarism did not even merit more than a verbal reprimand. Subsequently, noting was taught and little was learned by me or my fellow "classmates." I use the quotations because calling anything taught at Duke a class is a sick joke. For rigor, I rate Duke, a F-. But, it did have one redeeming quality, U did make some contacts there have been of limited value. Mostly the contacts taught me how not to conduct a business. Still, worthy knowledge. Value, C- since I didn't pay for it. D- if I'd had to pay. UNC and NC State are cheaper, and I understand much more likely to teach a M.B.A. student something of value. If I had been paying, I'd have gone to UNC or NC State.

    But, my kindergarten teacher had me figured out - does not work or play well with others.

    Z

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    I'm glad internet and sites like this weren't around when I went to college. From my perspective, going to college was worth it. OP focusses on the present so I hesitated jumping in on thread. If you asked me that question within the first 5 years of graduating from college, I would have answered "I'm not seeing the rewards, yet."

    College isn't like a stock/commodity/real estate rocket ride, its a long term investment. Virtually no one is going to waltz into executive suite, or cover of Business Week right out of college. There will be some dues paying years. Bill Gates,Steve Jobs, etal went through some dues paying years, too. I estimate the majority of SW members are of the dues paying years ( I'm guessing median age of SW membership ~ 25 ) with few members north of 40.

    OP correctly states that present economy/job prospects suck real bad. I finished off college during one of the bad recessions of the 20th century. Getting schooling, training, or otherwise improving ones credentials is best done during economic downturns so you'll be better prepared when hiring wave picks up. While some courses may seem useless, the networking aspect of college can pay dividends, even if it is not Ivy League. (Note to Mel- your homework assignment is to research the percentage of current Fortune 500 Ceos who got their initial degree from a private Ivy League school. There are a lot of Ceos who went to a public university ). In one career advancement move, I didn't have quite the ammount of desired job experience for the position, but prospective supervisor went to same college. I was hired a few months after dropping in for informal chat.

    I said earlier that college education is an investment. It needs to be treated as such, not just something to mark time with for 4 years. One needs to have a clear idea of life goals and potential path(s) to those goals. This "investment" can be an expensive undertaking, but it doesn't need to be. As one poster pointed out, starting out in community/junior college, and transferring to 4 year college can save $$. The BS/BA Degree reads the same whether one went there 4 years or 2. Several of the first 2 years of college courses are the same "boilerplate courses" required for almost any degree path. Might as well fill them at the less expensive school. Most SW members are probably well aware of "Mel's" career path (kudos, Mel) and how well it has worked for her. Still, some of her assumptions have flaws, namely assuming that college student spends 4 full years (and tuition $$$) at expensive university, and that student isn't employed during stay. Following JC/CC early path in conjunction with working way through college can tilt the "crunched numbers" more in college grads favor.

    Mel's path works well for her. Kobe Bryants path seems to have worked very well for him, what with him being one of the very few players to be drafted right out of high school into the NBA. Yet does any SW member think that it would be a good idea to suggest that typical high school jock strive to immitate Kobe Bryants career path ? Each individual is different and needs to choose what is best for them.
    Last edited by minnow; 07-01-2012 at 07:58 PM. Reason: additional points
    I'm right 96% of the time. I don't sweat the other 5% .......................

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    I got my bachelors from a well known private art college and my masters from a state school with detours at a community college (one year full scholarship)and a religious college (one semester). Honestly, I didn't learn much at the private college at all. It was all ass kissing and highly competitve to get one of the lucrative internships or to work at the college radio station. I should mention this school was famous for its radio program. The general education there was pathetic and very leftwing leaning.

    At the public school I learned a lot more and the classes were more difficult. I had to maintain a B in every class. Since it was a graduate program though this could explain it but it seems the undergrad classes were more difficult than my experience at the private school.

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    This question is too general. I know of many college graduates that have used their degree & some that haven't at all. Is it the college degree or the person him/herself? A college degree doesn't say a lot about a person's work ethics or *gasp* his/her motivation to actually look for a job. Others are yet getting degrees in subjects like philosophy. Cool subject, but definitely not of any practical use.

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    OP focusses on the present so I hesitated jumping in on thread. If you asked me that question within the first 5 years of graduating from college, I would have answered "I'm not seeing the rewards, yet."
    Well, this point really gets to the heart of the question ... whether 'structural changes' in the US economy will permanently affect the long term cost vs benefit equation of college degrees being obtained today. This in turn involves issues like equally qualified H1B 'foreign' college graduates offering US employers equal work for less pay, involves issues such as the 'outsourcing' of some professional services jobs, involves issues such as the 'offshoring' of business operations and the professional jobs required by those business operations, etc. Like the old paradigms concerning the US housing market, 'structural changes' in the US professional jobs market may have a profound future impact ... which tends to render 'past performance' far less meaningful.

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    removed
    Last edited by lokikola; 11-11-2012 at 03:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    This is a curiously appropriate time for this discussion to pop up for me.

    I have a BFA in Painting and I work for an art department now during the day. I was promoted to senior management early this year and have been considering going back to school for a MBA from one of my local universities.

    I think it would make me more marketable and help me work through some of the things that I struggle with - managing my situation as an independent conractor hasn't taught me all of the things that I need to manage others and I run into alot as far as IPs and grants and such that I need to have a better grasp of. It's too in-depth for me to really teach myself.

    Any thoughts on masters degrees specifically? Or MBAs?

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    Default Re: Is College Worth It ?

    Your Atlanta choices are not that great, Georgia Tech has a fairly rigorous program for an MBA in supply chain management. Not your field, but the price is right and the rigor is there.

    You might want to look at an executive or weekend program that focuses more on general management. Because you lack the basic academic building blocks, a good general MBA program will help you if it is rigorous. The UNC executive MBA program is fairly good. Indiana's executive MBA program is strong, but it means commuting to Bloomington several times a semester and lots of conference calls/skypes and lots of online sessions with your team. (A very useful learning experience on its own.)

    HTH
    Z

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