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Thread: Dealing with fiance's past

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    Default Dealing with fiance's past

    I hope I don't get flamed too badly for this. I am very deeply in love with my girlfriend and we plan to marry shortly. We are both in our late 30s. She used to dance at one of the top places in Manhatten back in the 90s. I gather that it was a pretty tame period, with Guiliani on the warpath. Still, after she told me this I find that I struggle with it. I've only been to a club once, for a very brief time, and found it uncomfortable as hell. Maybe I'm a little bit of a prude. I don't think badly of stripping per se. But somehow this has gotten to me. I am aware that it is not my place to judge and that a lot of good things came from her job. But it isn't really a rational response, just a kind of sinking feeling -- especially when she does something like a little strip dance for me. Not sure how to explain it.

    Anyway, I was hoping some people here could help give me some perspective or advice. I want to support her and definitely don't want her to feel badly about her choices (she has told me she does not feel great about having danced). Any thoughts?

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    Veteran Member summerbre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    Sounds like the problem might be jealousy/insecurity on your part (based upon the "sinking feeling"). If she feels badly about stripping in the past, then obviously you guys share similar judgements of the situation, so it's not as if your relationship is suffering from misaligned ideals. What's done is done, that was over a decade ago. Obviously both of your lives are very different now than they were then, it should be a non-issue. Maybe ask her not to do strip dances anymore, don't bring up strip clubs anymore, and move past it -- into prude & peaceful matrimony.

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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    Well... I'm a dancer (in a long term relationship) that works in NYC, I can certainly give you perspective. What is it exactly that you are asking?
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    ^What Sophia said.
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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    I don't know why you feel that way. If you also think your feelings are irrational and inexplicable, then I don't know what we could tell you, that could rationalize it away.
    Maybe you could try hypnosis, go deep into your subconscious and just relax and let the past go.

    Don't worry about it. You know how you said you don't think badly of stripping? Go with that, that is the correct answer.

    Honestly, i wish i could have danced in manhattan back in the 90s. That was probably amazing! Way more money for way less mileage.

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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    Quote Originally Posted by summerbre View Post
    Sounds like the problem might be jealousy/insecurity on your part (based upon the "sinking feeling"). What's done is done, that was over a decade ago. Obviously both of your lives are very different now than they were then, it should be a non-issue.
    Ding! Ding! Ding! You're so right it is scary.


    wyo, what's the big to-do? Work is work. I'm in a relationship, I dance, I come home to my significant other, and I leave those interactions with customers at the door. Seriously. You're talking about the 90's. That is aaaaaaaaages ago.

    Why do you get upset at the thought of your fiance's former career? Can you elaborate?
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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    Quote Originally Posted by yinyang View Post
    Honestly, i wish i could have danced in manhattan back in the 90s. That was probably amazing! Way more money for way less mileage.
    Me too! Jeeze... If I had a time machine....
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay12 View Post
    ^What Sophia said.
    Quote Originally Posted by yoda57us View Post
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    Veteran Member summerbre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    Hahaha. It's funny, to think that with all of the things one could do with a time machine... I would probably also choose stripping in Manhattan in the 90's! I mean, a whole Midnight in Paris type scenario would be neat too, partying with all of the artists and writers I admire from that era... But... Nah. Manhattan in the 90s.

    (sorry for the threadjack, back on topic!)

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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    Ay, yo, WYO!

    Where you at?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay12 View Post
    ^What Sophia said.
    Quote Originally Posted by yoda57us View Post
    I wish there was an "auto-like" setting that I could just have applied to all of your posts Sophia....

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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    I don't think it is as simple as insecurity or jealousy. I am a reasonably secure guy -- good looking, smart, successful. And I've never been insecure in past relationships. Maybe a little jealousy; I'm really crazy about her like no one else I've ever known. I do kind of dislike the idea of CEOs and pro athletes being able to buy that access. But that doesn't feel like the full story at any rate.

    Maybe somehow I am making more judgments "subconsciously" than I think. But in part it feels a little like some of the intimacy of seeing her is lost, if that makes sense. I think I also imagine it as a little more sexual than it is? Maybe my lack of experience with clubs makes my imagination run wild. Maybe some of the perspective I was hoping for was what the dancer's think. I mean after all, my perspective -- such as it is -- would be as a customer and it would be all about arousal.

    Sorry if I am being unclear. Partly just thinking outloud. Thanks for the comments.

    I should say about her attitude: She isn't some crazy moralist about it. I think she just thought the environment wasn't all that healthy over the long run.

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    Veteran Member summerbre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    You think that the intimacy of seeing her is lost because of her history... And yet you're going to marry her?! Whoa.

    I'd understand a man (by the way, your account says you're a lady, thought I was talking to a lesbian couple, but this makes much more sense! ) feeling that way if she were still working in the club. But is the intimacy of seeing someone lost if they've dated people before you? Because I can almost guarantee that her past *real* relationships were much more intimate than any relationship she ever had in a strip club.

    And, furthermore, if you want to be convinced by other dancers that their relationships with men in the club don't mean anything to them, it implies that the thought of her being "aroused" by dancing for other men *is* at the heart of the problem. Which would imply insecurity. Strengthened by the fact that it's not the thought of just any men that bothers you, but specifically CEOs and pro athletes. If she had been aroused by stripping, would that be OK with you? Would you rather that she felt victimized or degraded by it? Would you rather that she didn't enjoy it at all, but did it anyway?

    Your "imagination is running wild" over things that happened so long ago! What's the use in that? Be present and don't take yourself, your relationship or even life too seriously! It's really not that big of a deal...
    Last edited by summerbre; 02-01-2013 at 03:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    Dude, it was ten or more years ago. Lots of people have things in their past that they may not be thrilled about but if she's willing to be honest with you at least you know that you are with someone who is not comfortable deceiving you. That counts for a lot in my book but hey, if you are going to judge her for something she did before you ever knew her, I guess you've got a decision to make. She can't change what she did. You can think out loud-or whine-all you like but there are really only two options here.
    Get over it or get out of the relationship.
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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    Quote Originally Posted by wyo View Post
    But in part it feels a little like some of the intimacy of seeing her is lost, if that makes sense.
    .
    im sorry, maybe its just me, but "subconsciously" i kinda of feel like you believe she "damaged good" kind of like a car that has lost is worth from being driven off the lot. kind of how women were viewed in the past, as objects which lost their value unless they were virgins..and im guessing if she's in her late 30s she's not a virgin, she's gotten naked and had sex with other men. so why does the fact that she got naked for men at the club disturbing you more? is it because she did it for money? or because men more powerful and wealthy than you saw her? (CEOS, athletes, etc.)
    she made a bold and honest move by telling you that she used to dance. i know a lot of dancers who would have just left it in the past, and now i see why!!

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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    Hmmmmm. The mind and the heart are subtle things. Yoda thinks I'm whining, but the truth is that I am doing what is sensible, namely, trying to confront an emotional response that I don't fully understand. That seems the opposite of whining, at least to my mind.

    And 15 years is a flash in this lifetime. Yes it is past and obviously would be the first thing a person tells themselves. Of course, her past lovers were more intimate connections; as were mine. These are things we all navigate, especially as we get older. But the comment about arousal wasn't a point about my being concerned at her being aroused; knowing her, I am confident that was not the case in any event. I was just thinking about how, from my perspective, the connection would at least appear more intimate than it is. (If I am not mistaken, this would be a common observation on the part of many dancers.) And, consequently, this might play a little into a feeling of loss of intimacy.

    The explanation in terms of insecurity just doesn't feel right. What would I be insecure about? Jealousy is closer to the truth; or maybe a sense of possessiveness. The latter makes some sense to me because it ties in with my extra strong feelings for her. (40 and never married; so she is the one.) There is some sense in which her having been exposed in that way, for the kicks of a bunch of guys, makes it feel a little like there is a loss of intimacy. When a woman gets naked for you, it feels a little like a gift -- there is vulnerability in that act, connection. That response is in tension with stripping. I am sure that performers learn to partition these things; but I haven't learned that trick.

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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    We've talked about the damaged goods thing. I don't think that is it either, at least not in a simple way. But I would beg to differ with you on keeping it secret. You may feel that because I have a certain response, that makes it in some way a bad thing. But look. I care about her immensely. I am working to get past it and I will. The comments above about "just get over it" are just completely lacking in insight. Wouldn't it just be nice if we could turn things on and off that way? But in the end, she and I will be closer as a result. Don't you think?

    On the athletes and CEOs: Its not so much the power and wealth proper. Its that, on balance, these are classes of people I just don't like -- I see very little redeeming value socially in either group.

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    Veteran Member summerbre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    Partition? Not exactly. The connection a stripper makes with her customer, whether it is a 3 minute lap dance or a 3 hour VIP suite, is intimate! It's part of the experience! It's sexual, and there has to be some level of authenticity there on both parts, or it simply doesn't work. Actors channel real emotions on screen. I channel real emotions in a strip club. Some girls may disagree with me on this, but I always try to find something attractive about my customer to focus on, and try to give them a genuine connection and experience. I don't think that doing this now should ever diminish my value to the man I choose to settle down with, because I expect I won't meet that man for a very long time, and when I do intend on finally "settling down," my career as a stripper will be behind me.

    I'm just trying to put myself in your shoes, and hers. I don't think you're whining, by the way. I understand you're trying to navigate a very complex emotion -- I have had similar emotions regarding an ex boyfriend and his ex wife, and it's tough to deal with when you love somebody. I also think you're a bit in denial about the root of the feeling, and I think you are trying to justify it by making a value judgement about your fiance rather than admitting that your jealousy is derived from insecurity.

    I think it's kind of sweet that you view nudity and intimacy through such a special lens -- there is a vulnerability in it!

    Thaaaat being said...

    Intimacy isn't like an hour glass. It's not as though that precious life-time quota of "intimate sand" was trickling out while your fiancee stripped in the 90's, and now there's very little left for you! There's more to TRUE intimacy than nudity. There is love, there is shared experience, there is interpersonal history, there is a special kind of chemistry. True intimacy is rare, and it is completely different.

    Have you ever masturbated to porn in your life time? Do you think that somehow diminishes your value to her, because you've orgasmed looking at a series of naked women you've never met? (assuming you've watched porn...). It's not quite the same thing, but it sounds just as ludicrous as what you're saying, in my opinion.

    You're definitely over-thinking this thing. Honestly, it kind of saddens me to think that you can profess how much you love this woman, that she is the one, that you know her so well... And yet still somehow view her as "damaged goods." I really hope the bottom line is jealousy and your own insecurities, rather than you making a value judgement on someone you love -- because that's not a very good way to love someone.


    EDIT: You see very little redeeming value in CEOs/founders of companies? Right... Because the very definition of entrepreneurialism isn't founded in the creation of *value* for society... (sarcasm)

    It's sounding more and more to me that you're in denial. I really, really think you two should go to couples therapy, especially now that you've said you think the two of you will grow closer from the experience. Your heart is in the right place, your head is getting in your own way. A professional could help your relationship and hopefully keep you from building resentments that could affect your marriage in the future.

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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    Thanks for the suggestion. I will think more on the insecurity issue. I'm kind of analytic in nature, so overthinking things is in my nature -- of course, I just call it "thinking about things". No, I wouldn't actually prefer that she not have enjoyed the dancing. But she didn't particularly. Nor, I gather did her friends (some of whom I've met). I also don't think it is really a damaged goods issue. But if it is, then I definitely need to get over that.

    In other news, therapy is pretty much a useless discipline -- happens to be something I know something about.

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    Veteran Member summerbre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    Sweetheart, all I need is a Psy.D. and you'd be in therapy right now.

    You're talking to someone who was one class away from a psych minor in undergrad, and more importantly, someone who changed her entire life perspective for the better thanks to a year with the most kickass licensed therapist I could find! Useless? Definitely not!! One of the greatest things that has ever happened to me!

    Anyway. You're welcome for the suggestion, and have you ever tried meditating? Are you or your fiancee spiritual, at all? This kind of over-analyzing and worrying that you're doing may be in your nature, but there are ways to alleviate it when it starts to cause problems!

    Maybe the fact that she says she didn't like it is actually what's making it an issue for you? Perhaps if she was more confident about her history, you would be too. That one's a long shot, though.

    Anyway. I'm tagging out of this one. I hope you find ways to quiet your mind and marry that woman with no regrets!

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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    Very few CEOs are founders of companies. And only bad economists think that creating a business in itself a way of creating value. I respect entreprenuers; my fiance happens to be one.

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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    Quote Originally Posted by wyo View Post
    We've talked about the damaged goods thing. I don't think that is it either, at least not in a simple way. But I would beg to differ with you on keeping it secret. You may feel that because I have a certain response, that makes it in some way a bad thing. But look. I care about her immensely. I am working to get past it and I will. The comments above about "just get over it" are just completely lacking in insight. Wouldn't it just be nice if we could turn things on and off that way? But in the end, she and I will be closer as a result. Don't you think?

    On the athletes and CEOs: Its not so much the power and wealth proper. Its that, on balance, these are classes of people I just don't like -- I see very little redeeming value socially in either group.
    first, totally agree with summerbre. hit the nail on the head. i don't know if you two will be closer in the end, that's up to you guys, if you can get past this mental block you have. and no, i am not all for "keeping secrets" , i am very open about what i do because i believe if somebody is that close-minded they don't deserve my attentions. the " exposed in that way for the kicks of a bunch of guys" thing you said , kind of leads me to believe that you still think that strippers are all victimized, poor little degraded beings and i can tell you that is far from the truth. if anything, its empowering for most. i think you need an education in what sex work is really about, and then you may take a different view.

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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    Cheers, summerbre. I do meditate every day. Its not a quick fix, though. FWIW, I have a graduate degree in psych.

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    Veteran Member summerbre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    Meh, well, hate CEOs all you want then, you may have me there. Economics is a week point of mine.

    One last suggestion. Maybe when you are thinking things like, "Why does it bother me so much that my fiance used to strip?" You can instead make a conscious decision to think in positive affirmations: "Why do I love my fiance so much?" or "Why am I so lucky to be marrying my soulmate?"


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    Veteran Member summerbre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    You're right, it's not a quick fix! But a quick fix isn't what you need here.

    And just out of curiosity, if you have a graduate degree in psych, why do you think it's a useless discipline?

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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    simone. that is what i was looking for. perspective. no? but your perspective is very, very different from that of the women i've talked with about this who have now retired and moved on (five women who all worked in nyc during those magical 90s). don't know why. maybe times have changed a bit. but i also know that is not the perspective of all women, even then. let me add: regardless of how these posts by me come across, i think most people who know me would say that i am a pretty open-minded, non-judgmental guy.

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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    Quote Originally Posted by summerbre View Post
    You're right, it's not a quick fix! But a quick fix isn't what you need here.

    And just out of curiosity, if you have a graduate degree in psych, why do you think it's a useless discipline?
    Well, at some point you learn about the methodological problems and the failure. You are right though, a person with with good instincts can be valuable. Just credentials don't garauntee that.

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    Veteran Member summerbre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dealing with fiance's past

    This is true. I went through 2 bad ones before I found a good one. But God BLESS that woman!

    Anyway, if you want to gain more perspective about the sex industry, go ahead and just browse the forums... Everyone has a different perspective though. Every girl has a different system, a different way of making money, different opinions of the job AND of themselves! At the end of the day, your woman's perspective is probably the only one that matters, because that's the closest you'll get to understanding what her experience was like -- if that's your M.O.

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