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Thread: The evolution of the lap dance

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    Default The evolution of the lap dance

    I have only been visiting Strip Clubs regularly for about a year now. The first time I ever set foot in one was in late 1999/early 2000 (can't recall exact day). I was a freshly anointed 21-year old looking to see what the hubub was about. It was during the daytime because there wasn't much activity and I only saw one dancer on stage, so I left shortly after. Of course I had heard about lap dances from popular media sources, but after taking one look and deciding to come back another time, I left it at that. Life circumstances had arrived shortly after which overruled any notion of clubbing until years later (2012 to be exact lol).
    So, after joining this unique forum and reading some past posts, I see many dancers (and ex-dancers) posting about how "great" it was in the '90s and calling it the "Golden Age" of stripping, etc. This label seems to stem from having much, much less physical contact between dancer and customer back then versus now. Higher contact means the customer gets more for the same money (or less), therefore higher contact is bad. If higher contact = bad, then how did this become the norm? Was there an event that happened that forced dancers to allow more for the same money or less? I don't think you can use the "bad economy" argument, because strip clubs (i.e. a place that has a stage where dancers get nude) have been around since at least the '40s/'50s (at least the '60s definitely). And we have had at least 1 or 2 economic recessions between then and the late '90s, when the Golden Age purportedly ended. To my knowledge the kind of high contact lap dances that are the focal point of this negativity never happened even in those bad times.
    So, what happened?
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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    Laws relaxed in certain areas making it possible to offer higher contact to customers. Add in the fact that there was an economic downturn in the 90s with the burst of the tech bubble that lead to decreased strip club spending, and clubs were motivated to offer higher contact dances for lower prices to entice customers. Dancers who started at this time and later only knew higher contact dances, thus turning them into the norm.

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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    Simple. Everyone, and I do mean everyone, got greedy. As private dances and VIP became the predominant means of income for dancers the club owners wanted their piece of the pie. Meager shift pay was replaced by ridiculous house fees. Dancers gladly payed the fees because the earning potential of selling privates was so great. The problem is that owners started hiring more girls simply to fill the schedule and collect more house fees from and hiring standards went down. Less attractive dancers had a harder time selling dances and VIP. Their solution was to offer services that the more attractive dancers did not. Eventually some of the more attractive dancers started offering the same services in order to compete for a shrinking customer base's dollars. Once it got to a point where all sorts of dancers were offering "extras" the next step was for some girls to stop charging extra for extras...

    Clubs have become a vicious cycle of owners charging dancers more money to work than ever before even though dancers are making less now than they have since the dawn of the private dance era due in no small part to the shrinking discretionary income of many strip club customers.

    This is a pretty broad description of what has gone on in the clubs over the last twenty years or so based on my experiences. We could discuss the minutia for weeks. Actually we've been discussing it her on SW for years!
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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    Something tells me this shift also happened due to a new generation of younger club managers/owners as well as dancers. Ones who would look the other way where extras were concerned.
    In any case, I find the subject interesting. People in general tend to look back on things and make it sound better than it actually was, call it feelings of nostalgia. "Back in my day, people actually CARED." We hear it all the time, I am guilty of it as well. I wonder if the '90s are being glossed over just a little bit?
    Quote Originally Posted by AmyLynne View Post
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    The only people who get rich off of Get Rich Quick Schemes are the ones who sell them, not the ones who buy them.

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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    If by "look the other way" you mean "encourage" then I guess I might agree.

    The 90's are not being "glossed over" by anyone that actually remembers them. That doesn't mean that there aren't good dancers and money to be made now. Times change.
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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    Another factor not mentioned yet is that lapdance competition, particularly for seasoned travelers $$$ became more "global", if you will. A few cities had full contact lapdances in the early 90's. Once someone experienced those, he (she for lopaw ) wouldn't settle for an airdance, and would verbalize "they did more in (XXX). Such travelers would pass on the tamer dances, saving the money for next "wild city" trip. Ensuing effect was tame cities would have to "open the envelope" some more, or else miss out on the $$. This, coupled with information age explosion/expansion of internet meant that club ABC was no longer just competing with club XYZ just down the street, but with other clubs nationwide that were firmly embedded in customers memory bank from a vacation, or a business trip.

    The "greed factor", mentioned earlier by yoda, caused many new clubs to open. The number of clubs listed in 2005 edition of EDN is double the number that were listed in 1992 edition. The number of "chain clubs" (and chains) have grown even more. That more chain and mega clubs have popped up since the new millenium serves to increase the demand for dancers, however many they can cram in with less regard to looks, vs the 80's & 90's.

    By the mid 90's, a few cities loosened up a bit on lapdances. By the 2008 financial meltdown, it was rare a locale that didn't "allow" some contact.
    I'm right 96% of the time. I don't sweat the other 5% .......................

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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    Quote Originally Posted by FasaCorp View Post
    If higher contact = bad, then how did this become the norm? Was there an event that happened that forced dancers to allow more for the same money or less? I don't think you can use the "bad economy" argument, because strip clubs (i.e. a place that has a stage where dancers get nude) have been around since at least the '40s/'50s (at least the '60s definitely). And we have had at least 1 or 2 economic recessions between then and the late '90s, when the Golden Age purportedly ended. To my knowledge the kind of high contact lap dances that are the focal point of this negativity never happened even in those bad times.
    So, what happened?
    IMHO it is a series of events that have led to the current state of affairs, as follows:

    1990-2000
    Lap/table/one-on-one dances spread across the clubbing landscape, making club experiences much more interactive. Guys were no longer relegated to sitting there and watching stage shows and dancers could now earn in ways other than just stage tips and hoping that they could sell conversation time. This was an important first step in breaching the contact barriers. At the same time, the economy was chugging along nicely, leading to increased discretionary personal income and higher corporate entertainment budgets. Net-net, more interactive clubbing experiences and fatter wallets led to higher spending in clubs. In fact, many new clubs sprang up during this timeframe in order to meet increasing demand for their services.

    2001-2002
    The recession led to lighter wallets and less club spending. Some dancers ended up doing more to earn comparable money and, over time, some customers came to expect more for their $$$. The most important aspect, in my opinion, was the loss of corporate spending as entertainment budgets started coming under careful scrutiny and attitudes started changing as to what constitutes acceptable entertainment activities. However, it was a relatively short lived recession and not too deep, so things did not degenerate too badly in a lot of places.

    2003-2007
    The economy rebounded and club spending improved, though it never came back to levels seen in the late 90s. One important factor is that customer expectations remained higher than they were in the 90s. Also importantly, corporate money never really returned to the clubs at anywhere near the same levels seen pre-recession as attitudes regarding appropriate entertainment did not really reverse with the improving economy. Nonetheless, it was a good period for some clubs/dancers compared to today.

    2008-Present
    Tanking and/or stagnant economy. Dancers, becoming desperate and/or not making the money that they expected from this industry, are providing ever increasing contact and/or other services and clubs are ever more willing to turn a blind eye to it in order to keep enough money coming in. Now greed may be part of it, but I also suspect that some of these clubs would no longer exist if they did not allow this stuff to take place. Also, the economic slump has been going on for so long now that many dancers in the business have never seen clubs any other way than they are today. And even with the loosening of standards, many clubs still have far fewer customers than they did during 2003-2007, with many clubs that used to fill up every night now veritable ghost towns on nights other than Friday and Saturday.

    Anyway, this is my take on the state of affairs fwiw.

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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    Quote Originally Posted by yoda57us View Post
    The problem is that owners started hiring more girls simply to fill the schedule and collect more house fees from and hiring standards went down. Less attractive dancers had a harder time selling dances and VIP. Their solution was to offer services that the more attractive dancers did not. Eventually some of the more attractive dancers started offering the same services in order to compete for a shrinking customer base's dollars. Once it got to a point where all sorts of dancers were offering "extras" the next step was for some girls to stop charging extra for extras...
    I always thought it was interesting that clubs started to care so little about quality control. When I started dancing at my first club, every last girl there was drop dead gorgeous and I was extremely intimidated. Fast forward three years, and all those good looking girls were gone--there were three or four other girls and myself that made up what customers started calling "the A-team" because there was such a monstrous gap between us and the rest of the girls, who had been hired just so the club could crowd every shift with twice the girls necessary and thus collect more house fees. But it also cut everyone's income in half or more, since there was no need for so many dancers, and girls started fighting over customers--and offering extras, which, like you said, weren't being given for extra money--they were just par for the course, given in every single lap dance in hope that maybe he'd tip a $5 at the end. This drove all the good-looking girls away until over time the club was just filled with average- to poor-looking junkies. What's more, all these new girls weren't taking pride in their work. There will always be lazy strippers out there, but nobody had any stage or dance charisma. I'm encountering this at my current club, too, although this club is much better as far as hiring standards go. I was talking to my friend the other day about this--a major problem is that the influx of new girls aren't really getting any guidance. It's not like there's a real training program with stripping basics--how to give a good lap dance, how to put on a good stage show. It's a sink-or-swim kind of thing, and the veteran dancers don't usually seem to bother helping out the new girls. But the new girls will dance for a month or two and suddenly think they're experts on the industry, even though they're still riding the shiny-new-toy new-girl wave and haven't really gotten good at anything. And then these girls will decide they're going to "train" brand new hires, and these new hires will think they're getting guidance from an expert, even though the "trainer" is completely new herself. And in my experience, the majority of extras dancers are new dancers, not veterans. So you have new girls spreading their horrible habits to other new girls, and the club will start to be filled with dancers who put on a crappy stage show, give shitty lap dances, and get the diva complex right quick--and they'll throw in extras for good measure. And as the veteran dancers start to leave the industry or move to other clubs, there's not many girls who can actually provide a good example. The best dancers at my club are all in their mid-late 20's or early-mid 30's, but we're getting outnumbered by all the 19-21 year-olds who haven't got a clue. The other night I was the oldest girl on shift by 5 years, and I was like, "Jesus...when did that happen?"

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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    Quote Originally Posted by firemaiden04 View Post
    But the new girls will dance for a month or two and suddenly think they're experts on the industry, even though they're still riding the shiny-new-toy new-girl wave and haven't really gotten good at anything. And then these girls will decide they're going to "train" brand new hires, and these new hires will think they're getting guidance from an expert, even though the "trainer" is completely new herself.
    IME this is very true. The veterans and dancers who know what they're doing keep to themselves and focus on making money, but the girls who started a month or two ago and more than happy to show a newer girl the ropes and pass on their (limited) knowledge. It does certainly make for a less than ideal situation with bad habits being passed down and ingrained in the roster, putting talented and clean dancers in the minority.

    I worked at one club in Scotland that had a "training" program for girls who had never danced before. It wasn't much, but the girl would come in for a couple of "short shifts" where she didn't have to pay a house fee (and also didn't have the chance to make money) and would get "trained" by a veteran girl on how to give a lap dance, dance on stage, hustle, etc. It was a very small club (no more than 10 girls on roster) and had a very friendly atmosphere, so even though there was no incentive for the veteran dancer to do the training, they were still more than willing to help out - and the other girls would also chip in with tips and advice.

    It's a shame more clubs don't do that, but unless they offer an incentive (and even then), veteran dancers just don't see a point in cutting into their sales to train some new girl who might not even stick around. It's an interesting situation that's quite tricky to navigate in most clubs!

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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    It's easy to overthink this. Markets vary fluctuate as a natural balance between the parties evolves (restrictive laws represent a form of unnatural constraint). But in the end there is a continual rebalance of service and cost just like any other market.

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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    I was at one of the better Clubs in my area last week and a young attractive girl just sat down at my table. Immediately after an introduction she said "what do you want to talk about" ? For a nano second, I was speechless. LOL.

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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    I danced in the 90's and there were so many reasons why it was better then. and most have been mentioned. For one, the economy was much better and you had corporate accounts which are now pretty much banned for clubs, and the dot com boom. Fast forward to now where there is increasingly outsourcing of jobs, the dot com boom turned out to be a bust. Speaking of dot com with the internet gave rise to competition and where in the past a customer might only be able to see a pretty girl at a club now he could surf the web and find porn and now camming.

    It's not just this though. Like mentioned above clubs have loosened standards in terms of dancers and what is allowed. When I started air dances were common and I had to wear pantyhose and two pairs of panties and have them pinned together. We couldn't really touch customers at all and they couldn't touch us except maybe on the waist, where they were usually allowed to hold. I once got in trouble for kissing a regular on the cheek. To stay competitve many clubs had to loosen rules. With the dancers too many were brought up in the environment where anything goes unlike older dancers. I mean many younger dancers see nothing wrong with sleeping with guys early in dating or letting them touch and many become dancers. Older dancers (ones who danced in the heyday)are from another generation and were raised during the 80's which were pretty conservative.

    People mention clubs being greedy which many are but this isn't new. I know when I danced in the 90's many clubs were greedy then and overcharged fees. The main difference is that there weren't as many dancers. However the idea that uglier dancers are being hired today isn't completely true because even back then some clubs (especially the lower level)did hire some ugly and fat dancers. The difference though is the upscale clubs and even the midlevel clubs were far pickier. I recently saw a website of a club that rejected me in 1993 and most of the dancers were ones they wouldn't have hired back then. A year or so ago I went into a club where I worked many years ago (went to visit someone working)and saw things I never would have 20 years ago. I know I would never become a dancer today with everything I saw in the last couple of years.

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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    Quote Originally Posted by rgbg View Post
    It's easy to overthink this. Markets vary fluctuate as a natural balance between the parties evolves (restrictive laws represent a form of unnatural constraint). But in the end there is a continual rebalance of service and cost just like any other market.
    While this is true to some degree it's worth noting that the "rebalance" has, to this point, always cost the customer more while putting the same $20 per song in the dancer's pocket (meaning she is making less now than a few years ago). The clubs keep adding to their end while profit and value decline for the dancer and the customer. It's not over-thinking when it's how you make a living.
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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    My guess is that guys just stay home and surf porn sites a lot more now than they did 10-12 years ago.
    For the other stuff, it is still very conservative where I live and haven't been to SoCal for a couple years so no idea.

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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    Lol...vanilla porn is actually quite boring to me now. I've seen so many thousands of hours of all kinds of porn you could think of, and it's just become dull (unless it's niche). Strip clubbing offers live interaction, so at least from where I am coming from it seems internet porn would not affect the business as much as you think (at least not negatively). In fact, more and more dancers are even offering "niche" fetishes that have exploded on the net in the past few years: foot worship, various forms of verbal degradation, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by AmyLynne View Post
    I don't care what customers think. I care about separating them from their wallet.
    The only people who get rich off of Get Rich Quick Schemes are the ones who sell them, not the ones who buy them.

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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    There is a tremendous difference between the 90s and today. Those who think there isn't, simply haven't been around or haven't experienced it. The industry has completely changed, due to this I am finally semi retired as well, after close to 20 years. I would like to contribute an important factor to why the change occurred: it is the Internet, and all the free or low priced easily available porn online. We live in the digital age, and while some might argue that nothing can compare to a sight of a naked woman in front of you, a lot of people prefer to look at the naked women in the comfort of home, its cheaper, and less risky, especially for those not single. Add high gas prices, risk of getting a DUI, and less disposable income. Many men don't like being hustled every five minutes either, they feel uncomfortable. The clubs I have seen recently are all very slow and don't have the same showgirl quality or atmosphere as the 90s. It's a different world.

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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    Also Internet forums (like tuscl) have allowed customers to interact in ways that never happened in the 90s. Such as figuring out ways to "hustle the hustler" and get more for less money. And finding out which clubs offer the most extras for the least money (at least within the same city). Even though forums such as this one exist, the more I search, the more I find that this forum is an island in a jungle dominated by mostly customers (and classless ones at that). I'm glad I found this place.
    Quote Originally Posted by AmyLynne View Post
    I don't care what customers think. I care about separating them from their wallet.
    The only people who get rich off of Get Rich Quick Schemes are the ones who sell them, not the ones who buy them.

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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    Quote Originally Posted by TENDERMAN View Post
    I was at one of the better Clubs in my area last week and a young attractive girl just sat down at my table. Immediately after an introduction she said "what do you want to talk about" ? For a nano second, I was speechless. LOL.
    Yeah, it stuns me whenever I come across a dancer who lacks basic conversation skills. There was recently a thread on here about that, asking if it was true that some customers will just pay you to sit and talk. I found it really surprising, since that's honestly a good chunk of what I do. Sure, I give dances, but the "wanna dance" approach doesn't always work, and you've often got to establish rapport with a customer before he'll start paying you for time or for dances. I also rarely have a guy say he wants to pay me up front to sit with him for a length of time before we've had at least a basic conversation to show that we mesh well. A lot of the girls at my club can't hold a conversation for the life of them--what's more, they don't care to try--and I think they do both themselves and their customers a serious disservice by assuming all the guys are interested in is T&A. You can get T&A anywhere nowadays; certainly you can get it online for free. We have to offer that human connection. If nudity was all that mattered, all the top earners at all the clubs would always be the hottest girls, and I've honestly never seen that be the case.

    I seriously think that certain clubs would do well to have the dancers trained in basic etiquette and conversation. Being Southern and from a good family, I had to attend etiquette lessons when I was a teenager, and although a lot of it goes to waste (I haven't yet set a table for a 15-course dinner party), a lot of it I use daily--especially at work. Just because I take my clothes off for a living doesn't mean I can't be a lady. A lot of customers at my club get really turned off by the really young clueless girls getting wasted and shrieking and running all over the place and saying the most idiotic shit imaginable--I wish these girls at least knew how to give certain customers the more refined approach, and were able to sit and have an engaging conversation with a customer.

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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    ^^^
    On the mark. Granted this is going back a bit but I have found the wanna dance doesn't always work in the midlevel clubs where getting regulars is where the money is. I had several customers who paid me to talk and listen. In fact one customer was going through a divorce and other issues and he paid me several hundred dollars a night just to listen to him. It's probably a bit different in clubs that get a lot of tourists but most of the clubs I danced at required chatting with most customers a bit. Of course some customers would just come up, ask for a dance then would leave afterwards but these were often a minority.

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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    Quote Originally Posted by firemaiden04 View Post
    Yeah, it stuns me whenever I come across a dancer who lacks basic conversation skills. There was recently a thread on here about that, asking if it was true that some customers will just pay you to sit and talk. I found it really surprising, since that's honestly a good chunk of what I do.
    This. I get very little from LDs and don't often do them, but I will always pay someone who entertains me or is otherwise fun to hang with. I find that the smarter dancers just "get it" when I start tipping them barside and simply let it play out. I have also seen silly comments around here about charging a guy per song for conversation (or some other such nonsense) and I just shake my head and smile.

    Now in a high volume club packed full of fat wallets, this may not be the most cost effective way for a dancer to earn. But in a local club on a slow night, with tumbleweeds blowing across the LD room due to a lack of occupancy, IMHO the smart ones find other ways to earn. Guys who are looking for simple interaction tend to pick slower nights for their visits anyway. A girl will never make a mint off of me for this, but I am usually good for a decent amount of $$$ (plus drinks) if I am enjoying myself and I won't burn more than a couple of hours of her time (and often less), which is often broken up with bathroom/smoke breaks, LD requests from other guys, etc. Heck, on a slow night in my local club, my favorites rarely leave my side for more than a few minutes and one girl even asks me to join her out back for her smoke breaks.

    But some girls are indeed limited in their understanding of how many different ways there are to earn in a club, no doubt due to inexperience with both dancing and male psychology. I have had girls walk away after an initial barside tip to sit alone on the floor or in a side chair, pouting because the club was empty and nobody was buying LDs, all the while not understanding that they just walked away from an alternate source of income.

    Anyway, just my

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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    one girl even asks me to join her out back for her smoke breaks.
    This happened to me once after we spent time in VIP (about an hour). I knew what she was doing of course, making sure I never got out of her sight so that I wouldn't spend money on anyone else. It felt rather awkward, after doing mostly dances for the past hour and very little conversation, that she started talking to me after arriving in the smoke break area. I don't smoke, so it was already uncomfortable, mostly I just used it as an excuse to see what this part of the club looked like.
    I guess I prefer more dances than conversation, though of course the obligatory introductions/small talk is a given.
    Quote Originally Posted by AmyLynne View Post
    I don't care what customers think. I care about separating them from their wallet.
    The only people who get rich off of Get Rich Quick Schemes are the ones who sell them, not the ones who buy them.

  31. #22
    Moderator yoda57us's Avatar
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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    LOL, I don't smoke but I never turn down an offer join a lady in the designated smoking area. One of my long-time favs used to spend hours in her old club's smoking patio out back. Often it was to hang with her regulars but sometimes it was to hide from annoying time-wasters as well. Either way I accept the invitation gladly as an opportunity to spend low-key time with someone that I am going to spend money on any way!
    Quote Originally Posted by Katrine View Post
    yoda, I want you so bad it aches in the swimsuit area.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sophia_Starina View Post
    Sophia_Starina is a sensible stripper...Naked all the way.....
    Quote Originally Posted by tempest666 View Post
    Double team! 2 latinas with big tits!!

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  33. #23
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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    Quote Originally Posted by rickdugan View Post
    Now in a high volume club packed full of fat wallets, this may not be the most cost effective way for a dancer to earn. But in a local club on a slow night, with tumbleweeds blowing across the LD room due to a lack of occupancy, IMHO the smart ones find other ways to earn. Guys who are looking for simple interaction tend to pick slower nights for their visits anyway.
    That's true. All my best nights have been on a slower night, Monday through Wednesday. Weekends are better for cranking out dance after dance, but I always get more time tippers and conversationalists on slow nights. I've also gotten more guys to buy me out by the hour on the slow nights, which is interesting, because it's not like there's really much else in the club.

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  35. #24
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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    Quote Originally Posted by yoda57us View Post
    LOL, I don't smoke but I never turn down an offer join a lady in the designated smoking area. One of my long-time favs used to spend hours in her old club's smoking patio out back. Often it was to hang with her regulars but sometimes it was to hide from annoying time-wasters as well. Either way I accept the invitation gladly as an opportunity to spend low-key time with someone that I am going to spend money on any way!
    Well, this particular smoke area was quite a depressing sight to say the least. Dancers that I had never seen before hiding out here, looking haggard and used up. Perhaps it was this particular club. Bottom line, I will never go back to that area whenever I visit this club (though I would gladly spend money on the dancer I spoke with in VIP).
    Thank you all for your comments, I do believe my question has been answered
    Quote Originally Posted by AmyLynne View Post
    I don't care what customers think. I care about separating them from their wallet.
    The only people who get rich off of Get Rich Quick Schemes are the ones who sell them, not the ones who buy them.

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    Default Re: The evolution of the lap dance

    You people are way over-complicating this. Any business that is run off selling services that cater to men's sexual habits will always sink to the lowest level it can. Men want sex. Period. It's built into them. Look at hooters. Men go there to see girls in skimpy clothes bring them their food. Ask any hooters girl how many times she's been solicited for sex from her customers. I would imagine it's quite high, and she's only wearing skimpy outfits while she brings them food. It's human nature for men to keep pushing for sex. It's wired into their brains.

    Same with stripping. It started out innocent, and has been pushed to it's basest level. It's a sex related industry, that is finally producing results for the customers. Lot's of customers are finally getting what they want out of it. Lap dances we're only the beginning. As soon as contact started happening between the dancers and customers it was over. Strip clubs are seen as the current form of whore houses by many customers.

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